Gloves Or Grips: Something's Gotta Give.

Good morning, all. Today's n00b question involves gloves and grips.

I took out my shiny new '07 this morning for a 20mile-ish ride. My hands were more tired after that ride than they are after a ride on my 599. In fact, it only took about five miles for me to say, "gee, my hands don't like this." On the way home I stopped at the local Suzuki shop (it's very close to my house, and I like the guy who runs it) and picked up a new pair of Alpinestars. These are better padded in the palms than my old Alpinestars, so I thought I'd give 'em a shot.

After taking care of some of the responsibilities, I took about a 30-mile ride with the new gloves. My hands were not impressed. The new gloves didn't help as much as I had expected. Later this evening I took another short ride (6 miles or so) and wore my old gloves. 'Bout the same feeling as the new ones.

As I type this, nearly four hours after the last ride, my hands are still pretty sore. What gives?

I love my new VFR, but if it only takes a few miles for the hands to start hurting, then I'm going be a bit upset.

Suggestions, please! Thanks so much.

[image: View Post]vthoky, on Aug 16 2009, 01:26 AM, said:

Good morning, all. Today's n00b question involves gloves and grips.

I took out my shiny new '07 this morning for a 20mile-ish ride. My hands were more tired after that ride than they are after a ride on my 599. In fact, it only took about five miles for me to say, "gee, my hands don't like this." On the way home I stopped at the local Suzuki shop (it's very close to my house, and I like the guy who runs it) and picked up a new pair of Alpinestars. These are better padded in the palms than my old Alpinestars, so I thought I'd give 'em a shot.

After taking care of some of the responsibilities, I took about a 30-mile ride with the new gloves. My hands were not impressed. The new gloves didn't help as much as I had expected. Later this evening I took another short ride (6 miles or so) and wore my old gloves. 'Bout the same feeling as the new ones.

As I type this, nearly four hours after the last ride, my hands are still pretty sore. What gives?

I love my new VFR, but if it only takes a few miles for the hands to start hurting, then I'm going be a bit upset.

Suggestions, please! Thanks so much.

There are two possibilities: 1. You're putting too much weight on your hands.
2. The grip is the wrong diameter or softness for your hands.

1. Most riders place too much weight on their hands when switching to a more sportier bike. I'm not sure how the 599 compares in ergonomics, but I'm sure it's a bit more upright than a stock VFR. Try consciously riding without putting any weight on your hands arms and see if that helps. To do so, put your knees up against the tank, press your lower back forward, straighten your upper back, tuck your elbows in, and relax. Loosey goosey on your arms. Helibars, convertibars, genmar risers, rogue's riser, etc. may help as well.

You can try different grips if that doesn't work, but you should be able to tell where the problem is coming from if you think about it.
Do you have a death grip on the grips, too much tension in the wrists, pins and needles in the hand, too much vibration, etc? Isolating what is causing your discomfort will go a long way in fixing it.

What he said about posture is very correct and true. As an added though I really really love spider grips. I started using them riding dirt bikes and found they also make a good grip for street bikes as well. They are slightly larger than stock, much softer and grippy as well. They will help with fatigue after a long days ride PROVIDED you are riding using proper posture. If you are riding with all your weight on your hands nothing is going to make you feel better.

George

[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Aug 16 2009, 02:38 AM, said:

There are two possibilities: 1. You're putting too much weight on your hands.
2. The grip is the wrong diameter or softness for your hands.

1. Most riders place too much weight on their hands when switching to a more sportier bike. I'm not sure how the 599 compares in ergonomics, but I'm sure it's a bit more upright than a stock VFR. Try consciously riding without putting any weight on your hands arms and see if that helps. To do so, put your knees up against the tank, press your lower back forward, straighten your upper back, tuck your elbows in, and relax. Loosey goosey on your arms. Helibars, convertibars, genmar risers, rogue's riser, etc. may help as well.

You can try different grips if that doesn't work, but you should be able to tell where the problem is coming from if you think about it.
Do you have a death grip on the grips, too much tension in the wrists, pins and needles in the hand, too much vibration, etc? Isolating what is causing your discomfort will go a long way in fixing it.

For sure, the 599 is more upright than VFR. I did try sitting upright as you describe, and that does take some weight off my hands. But I can't stay that way -- I need to maintain a good grip on the bars. Your thoughts on isolation are good -- I did wonder first if I was gripping too tightly. I've wondered that on my 599, and that led to thinking that my (earlier) gloves were just not sized well -- perhaps the leather in the fingers didn't "give" well enough when I gripped something tightly, restricting circulation. This idea makes me want to try the textile gloves. With that in mind, I consciously loosened up my grip on the bars... no real change overall, however.

The sensation I have is just a soreness/tiredness. There's not a pins-and-needles sensation, and my wrists don't hurt. (Honestly, I had a fear to begin with that my wrists would suffer -- not my hands.)

Vibration came to mind, simply in that I knew the VFR I rode back in June was equipped with anti-vibe bar ends. I had nothing to compare it to, though, and it's not available to me now for comparison, so there may or may not be any merit in my thinking that.

The diameter of the grip did come to mind. I haven't yet whipped out the calipers and compared VFR grip diameter to 599 grip diameter, but that will get done shortly. As for the Heli-bars, that's a mod I considered before even buying this bike. I suspect those will be on my "Santa list" this year, but I want to be able to ride comfortably until then.

I wonder, too, about the angle of the grip.
http://blackcatresearch.com/VFR/hand.jpg
I've ripped off a hand photo from someone's web site and added a couple of lines. The red line [very] roughly indicates the contact between my hand and the bike's grip (and my present soreness). The blue line is more in line with the natural line of the closed hand. Does this mean anything? I'm not sure. (But they say a pic is worth a thousand words, so I felt I had to offer one. :) )

Spider grips? I'll have to surf that out. Monk's signature mentions Grip Puppies -- those are very affordable! Wonder if I've got a local supplier....

Gotta get my laundry and some garage work done... then I'm going riding! :)

Spider grips

I run the full thickness MX grips, but they make thin ones as well.

George

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/public/style_images/light/snapback.png' alt='View Post' />vthoky, on Aug 16 2009, 07:08 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Aug 16 2009, 02:38 AM, said:

There are two possibilities: 1. You're putting too much weight on your hands. 2. The grip is the wrong diameter or softness for your hands. 1. Most riders place too much weight on their hands when switching to a more sportier bike. I'm not sure how the 599 compares in ergonomics, but I'm sure it's a bit more upright than a stock VFR. Try consciously riding without putting any weight on your hands arms and see if that helps. To do so, put your knees up against the tank, press your lower back forward, straighten your upper back, tuck your elbows in, and relax. Loosey goosey on your arms. Helibars, convertibars, genmar risers, rogue's riser, etc. may help as well. You can try different grips if that doesn't work, but you should be able to tell where the problem is coming from if you think about it. Do you have a death grip on the grips, too much tension in the wrists, pins and needles in the hand, too much vibration, etc? Isolating what is causing your discomfort will go a long way in fixing it. For sure, the 599 is more upright than VFR. I did try sitting upright as you describe, and that does take some weight off my hands. But I can't stay that way -- I need to maintain a good grip on the bars. Your thoughts on isolation are good -- I did wonder first if I was gripping too tightly. I've wondered that on my 599, and that led to thinking that my (earlier) gloves were just not sized well -- perhaps the leather in the fingers didn't "give" well enough when I gripped something tightly, restricting circulation. This idea makes me want to try the textile gloves. With that in mind, I consciously loosened up my grip on the bars... no real change overall, however. The sensation I have is just a soreness/tiredness. There's not a pins-and-needles sensation, and my wrists don't hurt. (Honestly, I had a fear to begin with that my wrists would suffer -- not my hands.) Vibration came to mind, simply in that I knew the VFR I rode back in June was equipped with anti-vibe bar ends. I had nothing to compare it to, though, and it's not available to me now for comparison, so there may or may not be any merit in my thinking that. The diameter of the grip did come to mind. I haven't yet whipped out the calipers and compared VFR grip diameter to 599 grip diameter, but that will get done shortly. As for the Heli-bars, that's a mod I considered before even buying this bike. I suspect those will be on my "Santa list" this year, but I want to be able to ride comfortably until then. I wonder, too, about the angle of the grip.

Sounds like convertibars will help. I think these let you adjust the angle, right? You should definitely be able to ride longer than you are...

Loosen your grip and bend your arms at the elbows. Your grip on the bars should be like holding a pen. Generally I don't even wrap my fingers around the grip.

Use your leg muscles and your knees in the tank to hold yourself upright, and bend forward a bit. It will take some getting used to, and you will be sore for several rides, then it goes away and it is pain free.

If your hands are sore they likely are not relaxed enough. Too tight of a grip on the bars or the gloves are too tight, or stiff requiring tension to bend the glove around the grip, or too much weight on the hands. New grips or risers won't help if you are gripping hard enough for sore hands. Try improving technique and conditioning first. I would recommend that you get conditioned to the bike before making modifications. Also lifting the heel of the palm up off the grip a bit will allow blood to circulate better. Once I learned to take the weight off my hands I have ridden my stock VFR up to 600 miles in a day and hands were fine. And I am an old guy.

[image: View Post]Bad Boy, on Aug 16 2009, 12:13 PM, said:

the gloves are too tight, or stiff requiring tension to bend the glove around the grip
That's something I wondered about, too. Maybe those textile gloves weren't such a bad deal, now that I think about it....

Ride the bike a few more times first.

I remember riding a friends Virago 1100 and it made my forearms and wrists hurt because they weren't used to that particular position, my regular ride at that time being an FZR600.

THe key thing mentioned here, is the time length of 5mins or so? and the pictured area of fatique

Pretty much confirms your holding your weight up with your arms, as your a$$ should be hurting long before your hands on the vfr if you have a stock seat. and that taking more than an hour or so.

So try too keep the weight off the hands, this will require holding yourself up with your back muscles.

If this doesnt correct your issue well enough , then you'll just have to go to a heli bar set up where the bars are alot taller and moved back.

One thing I really liked was raising the clipons out of their detent and rotating forward , the stock rear sweep is nothing but a carpel tunnel syndrom creator.

[image: View Post]jeremy556, on Aug 16 2009, 11:56 AM, said:

Loosen your grip and bend your arms at the elbows. Your grip on the bars should be like holding a pen. Generally I don't even wrap my fingers around the grip.

Use your leg muscles and your knees in the tank to hold yourself upright, and bend forward a bit. It will take some getting used to, and you will be sore for several rides, then it goes away and it is pain free.

:+1:

You want your grip light enough on the grips that you can "drum" your finger tips on top of the brake and clutch lever.

I know you all will get a hoot out of this, but a Suzanne Sommers' Thigh Master. Use it 3 or 4 times a week for about 10-15 minutes. It will build up your inner thigh muscles so you can grip the tank better with the inside of your thighs and knees.

If you ever go to a Reg Pridmore school, he teaches you how to use your inner thighs to help steer the bike. He is a really big advocate of that.

You guys are a wealth of knowledge. I'll keep trying things (the things you guys have suggested) and keep you posted. I didn't think I was leaning on my hands much... maybe I was doing it more so than I realized.

[image: View Post]vthoky, on Aug 16 2009, 03:13 PM, said:

You guys are a wealth of knowledge. I'll keep trying things (the things you guys have suggested) and keep you posted. I didn't think I was leaning on my hands much... maybe I was doing it more so than I realized.

It does sound like you might be gripping to tight like others have mentioned and it causes worse problems on bikes where you lean forward more. Many people have a death grip on the bars, but you want just the opposite. You should be gripping as light as possible and as Jeremy said have loose arms too, this allows you to better feel what the front end constantly feeds back to you on any bike. A tight grip only masks feedback and screws up your body! :blush:
Most bikes will handle better w/o the bad input from most riders, a loose grip lets the bike do it's thing and letting you add input only as needed. :cool:

Like everybody said: posture, grip tank with thighs, loosen the arms, relax. You're learning how to use new muscles. You'll be much more comfortable after getting acquainted with your new ride for a few hundred miles.

[image: View Post]jeremy556, on Aug 16 2009, 11:56 AM, said:

Loosen your grip and bend your arms at the elbows. Your grip on the bars should be like holding a pen. Generally I don't even wrap my fingers around the grip.

Use your leg muscles and your knees in the tank to hold yourself upright, and bend forward a bit. It will take some getting used to, and you will be sore for several rides, then it goes away and it is pain free.


+1000 :fing02:

Mr. Hokey-
I've only had my VFR a few months, coming from an SV. I get tingling hands. Everytime it happens, I can notice I'm gripping too tight, or my arms are tense. For whatever reason I found the SVs tank a bit easer to grip with my legs, but I will chime in and say doing so helps. A lot. I can feel the difference. I also have been messing around with my posture. Some days, everything just clicks and I'm in the right place. Other days, not so much.

So, give it some time. I'm not there yet either, but if we get our core/legs stronger, I know it will help. I'm gonna mess with my seat as well. It doesn't hurt me, but I can't get comfortable.

Good luck!

I've notice that if for some god awful reason I don't ride for a couple of weeks my hands hurt when I get back on it, but after a couple of days riding the soreness starts to go away. I think it's just a matter of getting the right muscles back in "riding shape" and, as a lot of others have mentioned, that includes the legs and back to get your weight off your paws.

Trick is, put a couple hundred miles on each day and you'll be golden.

Although I started the "you have the wrong riding posture" and I agree you should ride a while before making changes I do think that rotating the grips outward may help you. Just be careful, you won't have the tabs to hold them in place, so you'll have to make sure they are tightened enough not to ever come loose, but not overtightened.

But definitely try adjusting your posture first, it'll hurt at first as you use muscles you haven't used before, and seems counter-intuitive to put weight on you back, but it does help, and you're using muscles that are actually good for your back to strengthen.

Just go faster, nothing like a good wind blast to take the weight off your wrists :goofy:

Good suggestions here (other than mine), you might also want to look into gloves that have additional padding on the palm below the little finger - there's a nerve in there, can't recall its name, that is sensitive to pressure/grip. Mountainbike riders have problems with this and many good mtb gloves have a gel pad in this spot to help relieve pressure.

Also, how comfortable is your riding gear in general? If your helmet is too tight, boots are too loose, jacket or helmet has a tab that flaps around your neck etc. it makes it hard to focus on fixing other posture-related problems.

I slipped Grip Puppies over my grips. Makes the grip circumference larger, and the grips softer. Fugly as hell, but I like the result.

[image: View Post]The Phantom, on Aug 17 2009, 06:25 PM, said:

Just go faster, nothing like a good wind blast to take the weight off your wrists :goofy:
I got a dose of that at lunchtime today, breezing up the Interstate at slightly super-legal speed. It's great out there, but doesn't work in town. :cool:

[image: View Post]The Phantom, on Aug 17 2009, 06:25 PM, said:

Good suggestions here (other than mine), you might also want to look into gloves that have additional padding on the palm below the little finger - there's a nerve in there, can't recall its name, that is sensitive to pressure/grip. Mountainbike riders have problems with this and many good mtb gloves have a gel pad in this spot to help relieve pressure.

Interesting you mention mountain bikers. I was talking with our resident BMW rider at work today -- he and I have done some mountain biking. (He's done far more than I have, but that's another thing.) He mentioned the sensation new riders (or riders like me who haven't ridden much lately) get in the hands -- it's similar to what I've been experiencing with the new VFR. I've been tempted to try out my mtb gloves with my 599 and now with the VFR, but for some reason just haven't done it. Is the nerve you mention known as the ulnar nerve?

[image: View Post]The Phantom, on Aug 17 2009, 06:25 PM, said:

Also, how comfortable is your riding gear in general? If your helmet is too tight, boots are too loose, jacket or helmet has a tab that flaps around your neck etc. it makes it hard to focus on fixing other posture-related problems.
Overall, I'm pretty comfy. Or so I thought.... :dry:


Grip Puppies may just be on the way soon, at least as an attempt at a short-term solution.

[image: View Post]vthoky, on Aug 18 2009, 10:37 AM, said:

I've been tempted to try out my mtb gloves with my 599 and now with the VFR, but for some reason just haven't done it. Is the nerve you mention known as the ulnar nerve?

That's the one. It can get pretty painful, but even without the pain I think it can be responsible for general numbness/tingling through the whole hand. I got a bit of pain from it when I started to really get into mtb some years ago, but I eventually ended up riding mtb so much that either I found a posture that didn't press on it, or the nerve just gave up and switched off... I've had no problems since those early days.

The trouble with having this problem is that it takes your mind off your riding, dangerous on both mtb and motorcycles.

Larger dia grips sound like a good idea. Also there are barrel-shaped grips, which look a bit 'old Brit bike' but are very ergonomically sound. Curl your hand into a holding-the-grip shape and look at the way your palm goes concave.