Advancing Ignition Timing

Hey guys, I'm wondering if anyone has tried advancing the igniton timing on thier vtec vfr's. I just installed the pc3 usb and I was hoping that it would be as easy as throwing on an ignition module, but I don't think that there were any made for the vfr's and they seem pretty model specific. Does anyone have any other ideas?
I've pulled quite a bit of power out of this bike already, but I was just hoping that I could pull a bit more out with out cracking the engine open or spending 5k on the supercharger... Thanks for your help :biggrin:

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 3 2009, 04:11 AM, said:

Hey guys, I'm wondering if anyone has tried advancing the igniton timing on thier vtec vfr's. I just installed the pc3 usb and I was hoping that it would be as easy as throwing on an ignition module, but I don't think that there were any made for the vfr's and they seem pretty model specific. Does anyone have any other ideas?
I've pulled quite a bit of power out of this bike already, but I was just hoping that I could pull a bit more out with out cracking the engine open or spending 5k on the supercharger... Thanks for your help :biggrin:

bump...? :blink:

so no one on all of vfrd has any clue?

The only thing I've heard is that a Power Commander II allows you to advance ignition timing, as it works slightly differently than a PCIII. The PCII takes the information going into the computer and modifies it (air temperature, density, etc. etc.) and so it allows you to tell the computer that your timing is mentally challenged, and then the ECU fixes this. The PCIII intercepts the signal to the fuel injectors and modifies it (post-ECU).

I'm not aware of anyone who has tried this.
Advancing ignition (and running higher octane gas) would most definitely make more horsepower, but whether it would be half a horsepower or 5 ponies, I have no idea...

I have zero experience with Power Commanders, but I thought I read somewhere that the PC V could change ignition timing?

[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Sep 4 2009, 03:34 AM, said:

The only thing I've heard is that a Power Commander II allows you to advance ignition timing, as it works slightly differently than a PCIII. The PCII takes the information going into the computer and modifies it (air temperature, density, etc. etc.) and so it allows you to tell the computer that your timing is mentally challenged, and then the ECU fixes this. The PCIII intercepts the signal to the fuel injectors and modifies it (post-ECU).

I'm not aware of anyone who has tried this.
Advancing ignition (and running higher octane gas) would most definitely make more horsepower, but whether it would be half a horsepower or 5 ponies, I have no idea...
Yeah, Trace has, and I copied him. But (however!) since I was only advancing the ignition and increasing fueling at high revs and full throttle, in practice I never used it on the street, so I can't tell you if it helped. I've since removed the advanced ignition and extra fuel from the map, so I can go back to running 91(RON) fuel instead of the 98 I was running, as 98's pretty expensive here.

[image: View Post]enzed_viffer, on Sep 3 2009, 04:54 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Sep 4 2009, 03:34 AM, said:

The only thing I've heard is that a Power Commander II allows you to advance ignition timing, as it works slightly differently than a PCIII. The PCII takes the information going into the computer and modifies it (air temperature, density, etc. etc.) and so it allows you to tell the computer that your timing is mentally challenged, and then the ECU fixes this. The PCIII intercepts the signal to the fuel injectors and modifies it (post-ECU).

I'm not aware of anyone who has tried this.
Advancing ignition (and running higher octane gas) would most definitely make more horsepower, but whether it would be half a horsepower or 5 ponies, I have no idea...
Yeah, Trace has, and I copied him. But (however!) since I was only advancing the ignition and increasing fueling at high revs and full throttle, in practice I never used it on the street, so I can't tell you if it helped. I've since removed the advanced ignition and extra fuel from the map, so I can go back to running 91(RON) fuel instead of the 98 I was running, as 98's pretty expensive here.

was that on a vfr? powercommander2? thanks

I had a Yamaha Virago that I advanced the timing on. To do it I had to go into the side of the engine that the stator was on and grind off the male ends of a mating bracket that originally forced the pick up coils into an exact position on the rotating magneto (for lack of a better term) which had unmovable magnetic devices on it that triggered the pick up coils to send information to the CDI unit. The CDI was simple in operation compared to what goes on in them today.

I advanced the timing about 1 1/2 degrees and found a very slight power improvement but it forced me into the use of premium gas to prevent spark knock.

It was not worth the effort in the end but I was young and ambitious and didn't mind the time wasted back then.

It basically made a 700 cc engine the equivalent to a 750 in overall operation. Still not worth the effort.

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 9 2009, 07:42 PM, said:

was that on a vfr? powercommander2? thanks
Yes, mine is a 2001 VFR (Trace's is a 2000), and both have a PCII.

My 2� on getting a significant amount more power out of a 6th Gen VFR:

1. Somehow, some way, somebody has to figure out a way to defeat the VTEC system and have all 4 valves working at the same time. Then a set of mildly more agrressive cams need to be ground. Might as well have the heads flowed if you've gone this far.

2. Scrap the fuel injection and install a quartet of 39 mm Keihin flat slide carbs.

If anyone figures out #1, then we have to figure out how to reconfigure the electronics so the ignition will work without fuel injection being present.

All it will take is cubic $$$$$$$.

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on Sep 10 2009, 09:14 AM, said:

1. Somehow, some way, somebody has to figure out a way to defeat the VTEC system and have all 4 valves working at the same time. Then a set of mildly more agrressive cams need to be ground. Might as well have the heads flowed if you've gone this far.
Someone did that - installed a switch across the spool valve for the Vtec. I can't recall if it was posted on here or the UK forum. From what I remember, he said it made very little difference when he flicked it off and on, apart from the fact the ECU wasn't expecting it so the map wasn't providing the right fueling when it was engaged at revs outside of when 4 valves/cylinder would have normally been operating.
Apart from the fuel mapping, it's not actually that complicated: the ECU just looks at the revs, checks the coolant temperature to make sure the oil's warmed up, and sends a trigger signal to the spool valve to open and let oil pressure operate the extra valves.

i would rather just keep the cams that came with the bike and have them degree'd properly. i had my bike dyno'd tuesday, if you could see the dyno graph you would be a believer in vtec too. minus a small dip at 6600 rpms it is virtually flat from 3000 to 12000 rpms. this bike has amazing midrange torque, whereas the non vtec's dont really have anything going on below 5 or 6 grand.
i would like to have some head work done, though. a good port and polish, 6 angle valve job, and head milling to raise compression. this along with proper ignition and cam timing i think would make awesome power everywhere, not just up top where the power would be with large carbs and aggressive cams.

[image: View Post]enzed_viffer, on Sep 9 2009, 08:37 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on Sep 10 2009, 09:14 AM, said:

1. Somehow, some way, somebody has to figure out a way to defeat the VTEC system and have all 4 valves working at the same time. Then a set of mildly more agrressive cams need to be ground. Might as well have the heads flowed if you've gone this far.
Someone did that - installed a switch across the spool valve for the Vtec. I can't recall if it was posted on here or the UK forum. From what I remember, he said it made very little difference when he flicked it off and on, apart from the fact the ECU wasn't expecting it so the map wasn't providing the right fueling when it was engaged at revs outside of when 4 valves/cylinder would have normally been operating.
Apart from the fuel mapping, it's not actually that complicated: the ECU just looks at the revs, checks the coolant temperature to make sure the oil's warmed up, and sends a trigger signal to the spool valve to open and let oil pressure operate the extra valves.

OK, we've licked that part. Now where do we come up with approximately $2400 for four 39 mm Keihin flatslides?

Yes, I've cranked in a good bit of timing at 100% throttle and 2 degrees at 80% throttle for my 5th Gen using a PCII, but that doesn't apply to the PCIII as far as I know. I've added as much as 6 degrees from 9 to 12K rpm, with the other 100% cells getting 4 degrees (and the 80% getting 2 degrees, as I already mentioned). Again...I don't think the PCIII allows for timing changes, so whatever I have to offer to this thread is simply BS.

The result (in my case, your results may vary, I have 99 headers and no O2 senors) was that the motor continues to pull to the fuel shutoff point, with no flattening out of power at those high revs. But the A/F mixture also has to be right for 100% WOT, so like anything having to do with making "best power" it's always a factor of the whole system working together properly.

I used to focus soley on horsepower but after 1) getting an RC51 that is freaky powerful and 2) trying to go around curves at 60 mph instead of a mere 58 mph :blink: , I've gotten away from my earlier interest in horsepower numbers. I'd now spend my money on ""suspension mods" instead of "horsepower mods". But believe me....as a former NHRA guy, I fully understand the desire for more grunt, so I'm not knocking the guy who strives for a few more HP at any cost. :fing02:

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 9 2009, 06:48 PM, said:

minus a small dip at 6600 rpms it is virtually flat from 3000 to 12000 rpms. this bike has amazing midrange torque, whereas the non vtec's dont really have anything going on below 5 or 6 grand.
Huh? Come again? :blink:

My '99 California model vs. random '06. You can guess which one has the big dip..
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o124/capnspif/VFR/Misc/scan0001Custom.jpg

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 3 2009, 04:11 AM, said:

I've pulled quite a bit of power out of this bike already, but I was just hoping that I could pull a bit more out with out cracking the engine open or spending 5k on the supercharger... :

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 9 2009, 09:48 PM, said:

I had my bike dyno'd tuesday, if you could see the dyno graph you would be a believer in vtec too. minus a small dip at 6600 rpms it is virtually flat from 3000 to 12000 rpms. this bike has amazing midrange torque, whereas the non vtec's dont really have anything going on below 5 or 6 grand.
How about describing what mods you've made thus far to get your power gains, and posting those dyno numbers. We're all always curious to see what has worked for anyone. As far as I know, it's rare to see gains beyond 5-8 HP [about an 8% increase] with the VFR engine (normal or VTEC) without going inside, raising the RPM limit, going "Toro", or hurting drivability.

IMO, the best "horsepower-for-the-dollar" any VFR owner can find is going 2 teeth up on the rear sprocket! :fing02:

[image: View Post]Trace, on Sep 10 2009, 09:13 AM, said:

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 3 2009, 04:11 AM, said:

I've pulled quite a bit of power out of this bike already, but I was just hoping that I could pull a bit more out with out cracking the engine open or spending 5k on the supercharger... :

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 9 2009, 09:48 PM, said:

I had my bike dyno'd tuesday, if you could see the dyno graph you would be a believer in vtec too. minus a small dip at 6600 rpms it is virtually flat from 3000 to 12000 rpms. this bike has amazing midrange torque, whereas the non vtec's dont really have anything going on below 5 or 6 grand.
How about describing what mods you've made thus far to get your power gains, and posting those dyno numbers. We're all always curious to see what has worked for anyone. As far as I know, it's rare to see gains beyond 5-8 HP [about an 8% increase] with the VFR engine (normal or VTEC) without going inside, raising the RPM limit, going "Toro", or hurting drivability.

IMO, the best "horsepower-for-the-dollar" any VFR owner can find is going 2 teeth up on the rear sprocket! :fing02:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=channel
there is five other videos on that users videos list. sorry for the poor quality i recorded it on my cell phone...
we should have the good video that i recorded on an actual camera up on AMR's website soon.
it only made 101 hp and 53 ft/lbs, but remember that this was on an actual dynojet dyno, not a mobile or some other bobo dyno.

im not sure how relevant this is(being a 750 not rc45 based 800) , but check this out!!!

"# Factory Ignition Advancer

After scanning through many different catalogs searching for an ignition advancer for my '91 VFR, i came up with nothing. Well, I called Factory and found out that an advancer is available from them. It consists of the following: 1) You must remove your ignition rotor, 2) send Factory your stock rotor 3) They regrind the rotor to a 5 degree advance, 4) You get your old rotor back from them and install. I am unsure what the price is but I am sure it's worth the cash to squeeze some quicker revs out of the old V-4 750. jeanne@accessus.net (Tony L. Skinner) "

this was taken from:

http://pages.cs.wisc...arket/misc.html

[image: View Post]vfrcapn, on Sep 9 2009, 11:01 PM, said:

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 9 2009, 06:48 PM, said:

minus a small dip at 6600 rpms it is virtually flat from 3000 to 12000 rpms. this bike has amazing midrange torque, whereas the non vtec's dont really have anything going on below 5 or 6 grand.
Huh? Come again? :blink:

My '99 California model vs. random '06. You can guess which one has the big dip..
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o124/capnspif/VFR/Misc/scan0001Custom.jpg

i dont want to start a pissing contest so i will just say that that is a very nice dyno. very smooth and good power :biggrin:

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 10 2009, 09:40 AM, said:

it only made 101 hp and 53 ft/lbs, but remember that this was on an actual dynojet dyno, not a mobile or some other bobo dyno.
Yeah, 101 is that solid, basic 5 HP increase I mentioned. Getting much more is gonna cost ya! But it's a nice gain, and if the bike makes smooth power and goes like stink, what's not to like?

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 10 2009, 09:48 AM, said:

i dont want to start a pissing contest so i will just say that that is a very nice dyno. very smooth and good power :biggrin:
Indeed, let's not start a pissing contest. In my posts above, I wanted to mouth-off that VTEC is a "feature" that is not related to improved torque or power, but addresses other issues that Honda was interested in, such as noise, city mileage, emissions, "technology leader"....stuff like that. But I didn't want this thread to become a VTEC bash, so let's all accept the immutable fact that 5th Gens have all four valves working all the time, and 6th Gens have VTEC, period. Nobody is going to be swapping engines (even if it was possible) based on what some dingbat like me has to say about either system. So instead, we should all go buy a Penske, send our forks to Traxxxxxxxxxion (or Pete McCrary), change the sprocket ratio.....and shut the fook up about valve actuation! :beer:

After all, you can't fix the VTEC dip! :goofy: Oops....sorry!! :blush:

:lurk:

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 10 2009, 06:48 AM, said:

i dont want to start a pissing contest so i will just say that that is a very nice dyno. very smooth and good power :biggrin:
No pissing here, just saying the 5th gens have the same/similar torque as the 6th's afaik. Notice these are both CA models and neutered on max power.

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 10 2009, 09:46 AM, said:

im not sure how relevant this is(being a 750 not rc45 based 800) , but check this out!!!

"# Factory Ignition Advancer

After scanning through many different catalogs searching for an ignition advancer for my '91 VFR, i came up with nothing. Well, I called Factory and found out that an advancer is available from them. It consists of the following: 1) You must remove your ignition rotor, 2) send Factory your stock rotor 3) They regrind the rotor to a 5 degree advance, 4) You get your old rotor back from them and install. I am unsure what the price is but I am sure it's worth the cash to squeeze some quicker revs out of the old V-4 750. jeanne@accessus.net (Tony L. Skinner) "

this was taken from:

http://pages.cs.wisc...arket/misc.html

5* advance all the time seems like a bad idea to me. Maybe 3 or 4 degrees at WOT and higher RPMS...
But I could be wrong.

at this point i dont see why dyno jet would release a pc 3 saying it is superior to a pc 2, when it is apparently is not.

[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on Sep 11 2009, 09:25 AM, said:

5* advance all the time seems like a bad idea to me. Maybe 3 or 4 degrees at WOT and higher RPMS...
But I could be wrong.
I'd agree. I already have my bike pinking slightly when very hot, and that's without advanced ignition. While Trace's map is good if you're going WOT or on the track, for everyday riding, when are you ever going to need it?

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 11 2009, 10:42 AM, said:

at this point i dont see why dyno jet would release a pc 3 saying it is superior to a pc 2, when it is apparently is not.
Well... that's open for debate. The PCII has some deficiencies: it has a serial port, which is problematic if you own a newer laptop wihout a serial port (although a USB/Serial convertor is cheap enough); and there are some other improvements I believe (I think it offers more mapping points???) I think too that it's logically better to be altering the signal from the PC to the injectors than monkeying around with the inputs received from the sensors.
The ignition advance thing could be a problem in the hand of a noob. Even though Dynojet deliberately limits the amount of ignition adjustment (and fueling change) it has the potential to blow up engines if used wrongly.

[image: View Post]enzed_viffer, on Sep 10 2009, 07:29 PM, said:

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 11 2009, 10:42 AM, said:

at this point i dont see why dyno jet would release a pc 3 saying it is superior to a pc 2, when it is apparently is not.
Well... that's open for debate.

Yeah, I'd agree with that (open for debate, that is). The III is probably better'n than the II, and the latest versions better still, probably. It's just that the II allows for direct timing and throttle position and manifold pressure adjustments that probably isn't REALLY needed for most users, and the way the III works takes those needed changes into account.

So, unless you really want to monkey with timing, don't worry about going to a III. There's plenty of maps available that should get you in the ballpark, and you can tweak from there. And of course, it's USB instead of stone-age serial port!

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 10 2009, 02:46 PM, said:

im not sure how relevant this is(being a 750 not rc45 based 800) , but check this out!!!

"# Factory Ignition Advancer

After scanning through many different catalogs searching for an ignition advancer for my '91 VFR, i came up with nothing. Well, I called Factory and found out that an advancer is available from them. It consists of the following: 1) You must remove your ignition rotor, 2) send Factory your stock rotor 3) They regrind the rotor to a 5 degree advance, 4) You get your old rotor back from them and install. I am unsure what the price is but I am sure it's worth the cash to squeeze some quicker revs out of the old V-4 750. jeanne@accessus.net (Tony L. Skinner) "

this was taken from:

http://pages.cs.wisc...arket/misc.html
Gee, I thought everybody knew that! Anyway, I had a conversation about this with Marc Salvisberg (proprietor of Factory Racing) about this back in the day and he explained that the reason he never put the VFR ignition advancer into production was because he did not think it provided any noticeable benefit on the VFR750F engine (this was a pre-800 discussion, btw.) He offered to "advance" my own ignition rotor as described above, but given his expertise and judgment that it was a waste of time and money, surprisingly, I declined...

But, it could be a different story with the 800, as some people have found it useful. I was wondering...can you fit a PC-II and a PC-III USB onto the same bike at the same time? The PC-II would just be used as an advancer, the PC-III USB for fuelling...? The mind boggles!

Ciao,

[image: View Post]JZH, on Sep 11 2009, 07:07 AM, said:

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 10 2009, 02:46 PM, said:

im not sure how relevant this is(being a 750 not rc45 based 800) , but check this out!!!

"# Factory Ignition Advancer

After scanning through many different catalogs searching for an ignition advancer for my '91 VFR, i came up with nothing. Well, I called Factory and found out that an advancer is available from them. It consists of the following: 1) You must remove your ignition rotor, 2) send Factory your stock rotor 3) They regrind the rotor to a 5 degree advance, 4) You get your old rotor back from them and install. I am unsure what the price is but I am sure it's worth the cash to squeeze some quicker revs out of the old V-4 750. jeanne@accessus.net (Tony L. Skinner) "

this was taken from:

http://pages.cs.wisc...arket/misc.html
Gee, I thought everybody knew that! Anyway, I had a conversation about this with Marc Salvisberg (proprietor of Factory Racing) about this back in the day and he explained that the reason he never put the VFR ignition advancer into production was because he did not think it provided any noticeable benefit on the VFR750F engine (this was a pre-800 discussion, btw.) He offered to "advance" my own ignition rotor as described above, but given his expertise and judgment that it was a waste of time and money, surprisingly, I declined...

But, it could be a different story with the 800, as some people have found it useful. I was wondering...can you fit a PC-II and a PC-III USB onto the same bike at the same time? The PC-II would just be used as an advancer, the PC-III USB for fuelling...? The mind boggles!

Ciao,

i like that idea! have my cake and eat it too! :biggrin:
all the superior air/fuel control of the 3
plus the ability to advance timing of the 2.
i could find a pc2 at a deeply discounted price and keep the pc3 that i already purchased.
and most important i wouldnt waste that $200 map i just had custom made by amr superbikes! lol
now is this actually possible? :blink:

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 11 2009, 02:24 PM, said:

now is this actually possible? :blink:
If I were in the 'States, I'd send you my extra PC-II to try out...but I'm not (and it is). Sorry...

Ciao,

[image: View Post]Trace, on Sep 10 2009, 11:04 AM, said:

. . . . . . . send our forks to Traxxxxxxxxxion (or Pete McCrary), . . . . .

Say Huh?!?!?!?! Let's not send our forks to Pete McCrary. He's still screwing around with his own. All though I have machined some beautiful pieces for the top of the forks to replace that stamped crap with the slot that Honda sends us from the factory.

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on Sep 11 2009, 07:29 PM, said:

Say Huh?!?!?!?! Let's not send our forks to Pete McCrary. He's still screwing around with his own. All though I have machined some beautiful pieces for the top of the forks to replace that stamped crap with the slot that Honda sends us from the factory.
What? Huh? Whud I say? Crikey....I meant "Jamie Daughtery"!! http://www.daughertymotorsports.com/ Jeeeeze...my fingers were going fasther than my brain after just reading a post that Pete had responded to. :blush: McCrary, Daughtery....same thing, almost, kinda! :blink: Anyway, Jamie Daughtery has a dang nice website, and he's a Viffer-ish guy, too. AND he knows about forks and shocks. ;)

But, Pete....do tell us about your beautiful machined pieces for the fork tops in a nice, new post with pictures!

[image: View Post]JZH, on Sep 11 2009, 07:23 PM, said:

[image: View Post]candyredrc46, on Sep 11 2009, 02:24 PM, said:

now is this actually possible? :blink:
If I were in the 'States, I'd send you my extra PC-II to try out...but I'm not (and it is). Sorry...

Ciao,

:beer: i appreciate it brotha :fing02: