[image: View Post]rc36Honda, on 01 December 2009 - 05:07 AM, said:
Crayons or not, I'd buy one.
Really? So you are buying an RSV4 then?
[image: View Post]rc36Honda, on 01 December 2009 - 05:07 AM, said:
"I wonder who could MAKE one?"
Any of the manufacturers "could" makes such a motorcycle (without the silly belt drive of course) but they won't, as the market for such a machine is simply too limited to make a profit...
[image: View Post]Baketech, on 01 December 2009 - 07:36 AM, said:
Another good illustration of why this end of the market is too fragmented for manufacturers to play in it... :fing02:
I think it's a good illustration of "not enough choices for consumers"! :fing02: Just think if there were as many V4 choices as there were I4 choices! Woohoo! :wheel:
I think the VFR I would prefer is a mix of BLS's idea and the 5th gen;
Gear driven cams with no VTEC
~110 HP / same weight
*good EFI/no flat spots or surging anywhere*
good suspension without so much brake dive, pogo stick from the rear, etc
belt drive (seems like the best of all drive solutions)
I can't see Honda pulling out a harder edged VFR variant from the 7th gen, which seems too bad. What I seem to have drawn up is an excellent 5th gen project, but I already own a 6th gen, so I'm not sure where that leaves me. Hoping to be in a situation where I can pump some cash into the bike I have and get a close as possible over the course of 2010.
[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 01 December 2009 - 06:44 AM, said:
I think it's a good illustration of "not enough choices for consumers"! :fing02: Just think if there were as many V4 choices as there were I4 choices! Woohoo! :wheel:
YES!!!...custom individualized superbikes for everyone at mass market prices...that's fricking genius... :fing02:
Looking forward to news of the startup!!!!!
:goofy:
[image: View Post]pres589, on 01 December 2009 - 07:24 AM, said:
belt drive (seems like the best of all drive solutions)
Ahh...we already have one comedian in the thread...careful or you'll be getting a warning from the guild... :biggrin:
[image: View Post]Baketech, on 01 December 2009 - 08:27 AM, said:
[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 01 December 2009 - 06:44 AM, said:
I think it's a good illustration of "not enough choices for consumers"! :fing02: Just think if there were as many V4 choices as there were I4 choices! Woohoo! :wheel:
YES!!!...custom individualized superbikes for everyone at mass market prices...that's fricking genius... :fing02:
Looking forward to news of the startup!!!!!
:goofy:
That's not what I said. Is your dislike of BLS blinding you or is it just too early to read?
No I'm talking a pure gear-driven final drive. Straight-cut gears, lined up in a row in a sealed swingarm in an oil bath, like a Burgman 650. This way you don't need crown and pinion gears like a shaft drive. With your transverse engine you don't need to bend the power delivery around 90 degrees and back like you would with a shaft.
A gear drive with straight cut gears is the most bulletproof solution. And the lightweight belt drive for the cams will trim so
No I'm talking a pure gear-driven final drive. Straight-cut gears, lined up in a row in a sealed swingarm in an oil bath, like a Burgman 650. This way you don't need crown and pinion gears like a shaft drive. With your transverse engine you don't need to bend the power delivery around 90 degrees and back like you would with a shaft.
A gear drive with straight cut gears is the most bulletproof solution. And the lightweight belt drive for the cams will trim some pork.
[image: View Post]TimC, on 01 December 2009 - 10:52 AM, said:
Better watch out, BLS. MCN might take what you've done here and start the 8th gen. rumors a couple years early. :laugh:
Uh-Oh.......... I see a Batboy showing up sooner or later. :unsure:
As for someone requesting who could make them one, Dutch Interceptor is REALLY good with Photochop! :comp13: :rolleyes:
Just wait until you see what he does with the pictures you send in for the calendar! :ohmy: :blush: :491:
Greg :fing02:
With your strong Honda connections, why don't you contract with them to produce a limited run of this bike!
For ease just live with it's current 1200cc PP. :fing02:
[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on 01 December 2009 - 11:48 AM, said:
Larry,
With your strong Honda connections, why don't you contract with them to produce a limited run of this bike!
For ease just live with it's current 1200cc PP. :fing02:
BR
200-plus horsepower on a Donut Mixer belt....I don't think so... :goofy:
[image: View Post]HispanicSlammer, on 01 December 2009 - 01:59 AM, said:
Step away from the crayons!
:goofy: LMAO!
Scratch the hideous HRC paint. I don't much go for multi-color schemes. Oh, wait...here's an idea!! :idea3: How about offering MORE THAN ONE COLOR CHOICE Honda NA!!? :comp13:
I'd still want ABS. Some of us ride in rain, slimy leaves, and below freezing.
Light weight, sure.
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 01 December 2009 - 12:58 PM, said:
Among the connections I've made at Honda there are a growing number of
them who are pushing *internally* for more V4s... like the one I Photo
Shop here and also a race bred 600 and 1000...
Technically speaking Bailey it ain't easy to meet the 450 lbs with a
1200 motor of death... it is possible to meet 450 lbs with a 1000cc
engine... and it would be cheaper too... because you can start with a
1000 race bred engine and just tune it for sport touring fun... it
would be like when Honda built the 5th Gen VFR using the RC45
engine...
I propose we go one better and ban anyone over 170lbs from riding a sportbike. 620lbs should be the maximum combined bike/rider weight.
1. 'Somewhere I read' that belts are stressed on the drive (front) 'sprocket', and that the smaller the radius of the front sprocket, the greater the stress. It is for this reason that the belt drive bikes out there have 'huge' radius rear sprockets, since the front/rear drive ratio still needs to be respected (without changing the transmission ratios) and the radius of the front drive has been maximized.
2. I was also 'under the impression' that belt failure is typically catastrophic (i.e. the belt breaks and you're stranded) while a chain keeps going albeit making all kinds of racket for so long that if you keep ignoring it, well you deserve to be stranded.
3. I've also 'heard it said' that poorly maintained chains (no lube and poor tension) will outlast poorly maintained (wrong tension) belts.
5. Belts still have a 'low kilometer' maintainance schedule, typically 40,000km or less, so I would still be stuck with the expense of changing every two years.
4. I hate chains, adjusting them, lubing them & cleaning them and changing them. A drive shaft seems to avoid ALL of these.
Brian
PS. I'm only 165lbs so I can afford an extra 10 lbs of drive shaft. :laugh:
PPS. Don't think I can get down to 135lbs, so prolly pass on the 1200F :ph34r:
PPS. As you can see I'm still practicing my numbers... :blush:
Just thought I'd share this lil' bit of info with you guys. At my previous job, one of the last projects I was involved in was a final belt drive for late model GSXRs (they share tons of parts between them, and since there are so many out there, that's where they wanted to start). I designed the entire drive around Gates PolyChain Carbon GT belts, and then had the pulleys turned, cut, and hard anodized. We then tested (thrashed on) the bike pull after pull on the dyno using a K5 GSX-R1000, and the belt worked wonderfully.
Even in its 8mm pitch, 21mm width configuration, it held the power (151whp) without any issue, and as you would expect, without any noise. I left before the product launched, so I think it's in a state of limbo right now, but a belt does indeed work. There's no doubt that same belt on a VFR would work out tremendously.
[image: View Post]Dutchy, on 03 December 2009 - 11:19 AM, said:
so I turn around, to find him with his belt snapped...
One day I noticed a rock hole my Belt-0-Cepter's belt... so I ordered
a new one and went out riding... came upon a HD rider and we compared
belts... I express concern that I might not make it back but it was
one hell of nice day for a ride... HD biker said hell I've had a rock
hole in my belt for a year now... What??? sure enough his belt had a
ragged hole that my finger fit... 10 months later and about 4K miles
my belt snapped in the parking lot of American River College...
[image: View Post]toro1, on 03 December 2009 - 02:45 PM, said:
Just thought I'd share this lil' bit of info with you guys. At my previous job, one of the last projects I was involved in was a final belt drive for late model GSXRs (they share tons of parts between them, and since there are so many out there, that's where they wanted to start). I designed the entire drive around Gates PolyChain Carbon GT belts, and then had the pulleys turned, cut, and hard anodized. We then tested (thrashed on) the bike pull after pull on the dyno using a K5 GSX-R1000, and the belt worked wonderfully.
Even in its 8mm pitch, 21mm width configuration, it held the power (151whp) without any issue, and as you would expect, without any noise. I left before the product launched, so I think it's in a state of limbo right now, but a belt does indeed work. There's no doubt that same belt on a VFR would work out tremendously.
Interesting story, just out of curiousity, what was the impetus for the project?
[image: View Post]Baketech, on 03 December 2009 - 05:31 PM, said:
Interesting story, just out of curiousity, what was the impetus for the project?
The company I worked for produced driveline components (starters, open primary belt drives, clutches, billet motorplates, etc.) for Harleys and wanted to branch out into sportbikes. The drive is tough to cleanly implement on braced swingarm bikes, but would be cake on the VFR.
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 03 December 2009 - 12:49 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Dutchy, on 03 December 2009 - 11:19 AM, said:
so I turn around, to find him with his belt snapped...
One day I noticed a rock hole my Belt-0-Cepter's belt... so I ordered
a new one and went out riding... came upon a HD rider and we compared
belts... I express concern that I might not make it back but it was
one hell of nice day for a ride... HD biker said hell I've had a rock
hole in my belt for a year now... What??? sure enough his belt had a
ragged hole that my finger fit... 10 months later and about 4K miles
my belt snapped in the parking lot of American River College...
Can't say I've ever had a drive chain with a rock hole.
[image: View Post]toro1, on 03 December 2009 - 07:09 PM, said:
The company I worked for produced driveline components (starters, open primary belt drives, clutches, billet motorplates, etc.) for Harleys and wanted to branch out into sportbikes. The drive is tough to cleanly implement on braced swingarm bikes, but would be cake on the VFR.
Very cool...what was the intended market for the conversion...show bikes, or?
[image: View Post]Baketech, on 03 December 2009 - 08:34 PM, said:
Very cool...what was the intended market for the conversion...show bikes, or?
No no no, it was meant for everyday sport riding. It saved some major weight over the stock chain setup -- I don't recall the exact number, but it was somewhere around 5-7lbs lighter. It looked trick, too.
[image: View Post]phobe, on 03 December 2009 - 06:23 PM, said:
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 03 December 2009 - 12:49 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Dutchy, on 03 December 2009 - 11:19 AM, said:
so I turn around, to find him with his belt snapped...
One day I noticed a rock hole my Belt-0-Cepter's belt... so I ordered
a new one and went out riding... came upon a HD rider and we compared
belts... I express concern that I might not make it back but it was
one hell of nice day for a ride... HD biker said hell I've had a rock
hole in my belt for a year now... What??? sure enough his belt had a
ragged hole that my finger fit... 10 months later and about 4K miles
my belt snapped in the parking lot of American River College...
Can't say I've ever had a drive chain with a rock hole.
My chain must be bad then, it has 112 or so holes in it...
[image: View Post]toro1, on 03 December 2009 - 10:06 PM, said:
No no no, it was meant for everyday sport riding. It saved some major weight over the stock chain setup -- I don't recall the exact number, but it was somewhere around 5-7lbs lighter. It looked trick, too.
Wow...5-7 pounds is a pretty impressive reduction considering that a 530 O-ring chain weighs just at 5 pounds... :ohmy:
How about the Inertia of the drive, was it reduced, or increased?
[image: View Post]Baketech, on 04 December 2009 - 06:16 AM, said:
Wow...5-7 pounds is a pretty impressive reduction considering that a 530 O-ring chain weighs just at 5 pounds... :ohmy:
How about the Inertia of the drive, was it reduced, or increased?
I don't have the actual numbers, but yes, the inertia was greatly reduced. The belt itself doesn't even weigh 1/4lb, and the pulleys were made out of aluminum, which were contoured to be as light as possible. It was going to be marketed as a performance upgrade, with low maintenance, low noise, no vibration, and long life. I wish I had some nice shots of it, but I've only got junky cell phone pics.
[image: View Post]toro1, on 04 December 2009 - 06:29 AM, said:
I don't have the actual numbers, but yes, the inertia was greatly reduced. The belt itself doesn't even weigh 1/4lb, and the pulleys were made out of aluminum, which were contoured to be as light as possible. It was going to be marketed as a performance upgrade, with low maintenance, low noise, no vibration, and long life. I wish I had some nice shots of it, but I've only got junky cell phone pics.
Reminds me, I wish my cell had a better camera too... :pissed:
Forgot to ask earlier, how was the drive tensioned?
[image: View Post]Baketech, on 04 December 2009 - 06:34 AM, said:
Reminds me, I wish my cell had a better camera too... :pissed:
Forgot to ask earlier, how was the drive tensioned?
It was tensioned the same way you tension the chain, but tightened according to Gates specs. We were most likely going to add an underside idler to take out any bad vibes over the long span, but I was gone before the project got to that point.
Anytime the swingarm pivot point differs from the front sprocket centerline, there will be tension changes during suspension travel, but if the tension is set while the rider is sitting on the bike, they will be minimal. The Carbon GT Poly Chains are tough belts, and can handle a pretty broad range of tension variance.