How to remove power limitations 1st and 2nd gear

I have derestricted the 1st and 2nd gear power limitations. I have made a simple scematic :

[image: post-20539-073954900 1286865358_thumb.jp]

[image: post-20539-068319400 1286865405_thumb.jp]

You will get falsh readings on the dash when 1st or 2nd gear are engaged.

I am busy decoding the serial link between ECU and dash.

To be continued

with photos:

http://vfr1200fa.blogspot.com/2010/10/gear-position-sensor-mod-or-how-to-de.html

Dutchgixxer

I have derestricted the 1st and 2nd gear power limitations. I have made a simple scematic :

[image: post-20539-073954900 1286865358_thumb.jp]

[image: post-20539-068319400 1286865405_thumb.jp]

You will get falsh readings on the dash when 1st or 2nd gear are engaged.

I am busy decoding the serial link between ECU and dash.

To be continued

While this looks feasible in some respects, I would caution that unless you know what the I/O interface properties are, you may be violating circuit constraints which would then risk a blown sensor or worse. I offer the following scenarios:

1. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted Low (or simply grounded) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired OR gate and will logically work.

2. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted High (or simply opened) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired AND gate and will NOT work as all 3 outputs must be asserted High simultaneously which will never happen.

3. Each output of the GPS is a CMOS type output that is asserted High (i.e. actively driven high) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a definite circuit rules violation as the output that is attempted to be driven high will be actively countered by the other two outputs which are actively driven Low, thus causing a near direct short to the supply voltage and maybe a fried GPS.

Perhaps you've already found that it does work as shown, in which case scenario #1 is most likely true. If it doesn't work, then beware of scenario #3 which could end up costing you some $$$ to fix.

Good luck in your efforts, I wish I could do the same but the DCT control needs to know the actual gear selection otherwise it would be constantly trying to downshift below third and never finding it.

Solomoto

Dutchgixxer

I have derestricted the 1st and 2nd gear power limitations. I have made a simple scematic :

[image: post-20539-073954900 1286865358_thumb.jp]

[image: post-20539-068319400 1286865405_thumb.jp]

You will get falsh readings on the dash when 1st or 2nd gear are engaged.

I am busy decoding the serial link between ECU and dash.

To be continued

While this looks feasible in some respects, I would caution that unless you know what the I/O interface properties are, you may be violating circuit constraints which would then risk a blown sensor or worse. I offer the following scenarios:

1. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted Low (or simply grounded) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired OR gate and will logically work.

2. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted High (or simply opened) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired AND gate and will NOT work as all 3 outputs must be asserted High simultaneously which will never happen.

3. Each output of the GPS is a CMOS type output that is asserted High (i.e. actively driven high) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a definite circuit rules violation as the output that is attempted to be driven high will be actively countered by the other two outputs which are actively driven Low, thus causing a near direct short to the supply voltage and maybe a fried GPS.

Perhaps you've already found that it does work as shown, in which case scenario #1 is most likely true. If it doesn't work, then beware of scenario #3 which could end up costing you some $$$ to fix.

Good luck in your efforts, I wish I could do the same but the DCT control needs to know the actual gear selection otherwise it would be constantly trying to downshift below third and never finding it.

Thanks for your reply.

I found from the honda scematic that if a gear is selected the ECU input is pulled to ground. ( your option 1 ) The screenshot with the color in it is a screenshot from the OEM honda scematic.

This mod is not working for a DCT.

I have added 2 scans of the OEM scematic.

schema L.pdf

schema R.pdf

Dutchgixxer

This mod is not working for a DCT.

I was just gonna say that I doubt this would work on a DCT model, and you've already gone and said it.

I imagine it would play all sorts of havoc with a DCT....

Solomoto

1. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted Low (or simply grounded) for a given gear selection.

2. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted High (or simply opened) for a given gear selection.

3. Each output of the GPS is a CMOS type output that is asserted High (i.e. actively driven high) for a given gear selection.

If the wiring diagram provided is correct then situation number one is almost certainly the design.

The diagram shows the switch being dropping to ground... so situaiton #3 is ruled out as there would be no source of voltage at the switch (per the diagram provided). Situation #2 would require a unique type of switch of the kind I have never encountered in years of servicing industrial equipment.

#1 is, by reasoning, almost certainly the case.... because the type of switch that drops only one lead to the ground would be of a very common type that I have seen in many different applications. From the engineering point of view I would think that the EE who designed the logic side of the circuit would have many logic chips available to choose from that had sinking transistor inputs.

However.... there is usually logic present in applications I have encountered that would sense multiple inputs when there should not be (failed switch, operator attempting to bypass a function or shorted wiring)... that would cause the logic chip to put out an error to the ECU and throw the program into a fail safe or keep run mode.

I hope gixxer gives this a try so our specualtion can be answered.

Edit: well that is what I get for replying to a post before reading to the bottom.... I guess gixxer has shown it is situaiton #1

And I also now notice that gixxer has negated the multiple input problem by snipping the wires above the jumpers.

I am thinking a plug and play right off the gear position switch where it leaves the crankcase "might " be the ticket here. I don't want to splice.

At your convenience , can someone count the number of wires coming off the gear position switch ? Photos of the actual connector if possible.

It should be left side of engine above the shifter . To locate it via a parts fiche ,see Ron Ayers and click crankcase.

First off...congrats to dutchgixxer for being what appears, on the verge of solving the lower gear power limitation. But would someone help me out here? I may have missed it but in all the reading of posts, I have not seen it addressed why the VFR1200 was detuned in the first place. Somewhere....in Japan...around some engineering table, the decision was made to do this. On a bike that is already at or beyond the maximum consumer price point, why did they elect for the added production costs of the sensors and what-not for this detuning? Was it to make the rear tire last longer? Was it to keep the front wheel on the ground? Was it to keep the rear passenger on the seat? Was it to prevent over-torqueing the shaft drive system? Somewhere out there is THE valid reason this was settled upon in that engineering room. I'm like everyone else in that there is a never ending desire for more power but before I snipped or jumpered anything on my brand new bike, I would have to understand what was on the minds of the people that built it that way. I understand rev limiters and I understand max speed cutouts designed in some bikes but this detuning in those lower gears is for some other reason. Please anyone/everyone give me your best guess as to what the reasoning might be. Thanks in advance.

Solomoto

Dutchgixxer

I have derestricted the 1st and 2nd gear power limitations. I have made a simple scematic :

[image: post-20539-073954900 1286865358_thumb.jp]

[image: post-20539-068319400 1286865405_thumb.jp]

You will get falsh readings on the dash when 1st or 2nd gear are engaged.

I am busy decoding the serial link between ECU and dash.

To be continued

While this looks feasible in some respects, I would caution that unless you know what the I/O interface properties are, you may be violating circuit constraints which would then risk a blown sensor or worse. I offer the following scenarios:

1. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted Low (or simply grounded) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired OR gate and will logically work.

2. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted High (or simply opened) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired AND gate and will NOT work as all 3 outputs must be asserted High simultaneously which will never happen.

3. Each output of the GPS is a CMOS type output that is asserted High (i.e. actively driven high) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a definite circuit rules violation as the output that is attempted to be driven high will be actively countered by the other two outputs which are actively driven Low, thus causing a near direct short to the supply voltage and maybe a fried GPS.

Perhaps you've already found that it does work as shown, in which case scenario #1 is most likely true. If it doesn't work, then beware of scenario #3 which could end up costing you some $$$ to fix.

Good luck in your efforts, I wish I could do the same but the DCT control needs to know the actual gear selection otherwise it would be constantly trying to downshift below third and never finding it.

vee1cut

First off...congrats to dutchgixxer for being what appears, on the verge of solving the lower gear power limitation. But would someone help me out here? I may have missed it but in all the reading of posts, I have not seen it addressed why the VFR1200 was detuned in the first place. Somewhere....in Japan...around some engineering table, the decision was made to do this. On a bike that is already at or beyond the maximum consumer price point, why did they elect for the added production costs of the sensors and what-not for this detuning? Was it to make the rear tire last longer? Was it to keep the front wheel on the ground? Was it to keep the rear passenger on the seat? Was it to prevent over-torqueing the shaft drive system? Somewhere out there is THE valid reason this was settled upon in that engineering room. I'm like everyone else in that there is a never ending desire for more power but before I snipped or jumpered anything on my brand new bike, I would have to understand what was on the minds of the people that built it that way. I understand rev limiters and I understand max speed cutouts designed in some bikes but this detuning in those lower gears is for some other reason. Please anyone/everyone give me your best guess as to what the reasoning might be. Thanks in advance.

Solomoto

Dutchgixxer

I have derestricted the 1st and 2nd gear power limitations. I have made a simple scematic :

[image: post-20539-073954900 1286865358_thumb.jp]

[image: post-20539-068319400 1286865405_thumb.jp]

You will get falsh readings on the dash when 1st or 2nd gear are engaged.

I am busy decoding the serial link between ECU and dash.

To be continued

While this looks feasible in some respects, I would caution that unless you know what the I/O interface properties are, you may be violating circuit constraints which would then risk a blown sensor or worse. I offer the following scenarios:

1. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted Low (or simply grounded) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired OR gate and will logically work.

2. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted High (or simply opened) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired AND gate and will NOT work as all 3 outputs must be asserted High simultaneously which will never happen.

3. Each output of the GPS is a CMOS type output that is asserted High (i.e. actively driven high) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a definite circuit rules violation as the output that is attempted to be driven high will be actively countered by the other two outputs which are actively driven Low, thus causing a near direct short to the supply voltage and maybe a fried GPS.

Perhaps you've already found that it does work as shown, in which case scenario #1 is most likely true. If it doesn't work, then beware of scenario #3 which could end up costing you some $$$ to fix.

Good luck in your efforts, I wish I could do the same but the DCT control needs to know the actual gear selection otherwise it would be constantly trying to downshift below third and never finding it.

Did you see that youtube video of the kid that throws down his brand new gixxer as he guns it out of the dealership? Rear wheel just spins out like the tire was made out of plastic! Then down she goes...

I saw a video of the VFR1200 being driven by a journalist at a japanese track way back at the initial release and he spun out the rear wheel...saved it, but still... I have a feeling 'if you don't know what your doing' the torque at the rear wheel will bite you in 1st or 2nd gear in this new VFR1200, so Honda played it safe. That's all they needed, all kinds of stories about it being a 'dangerous' bike. I think that is why is has been restricted...poor man's traction control.

Brian

DDO-VFR

I saw a video of the VFR1200 being driven by a journalist at a japanese track way back at the initial release and he spun out the rear wheel...saved it, but still... I have a feeling 'if you don't know what your doing' the torque at the rear wheel will bite you in 1st or 2nd gear in this new VFR1200, so Honda played it safe. That's all they needed, all kinds of stories about it being a 'dangerous' bike. I think that is why is has been restricted...poor man's traction control.

+1 with the price point Honda already at with the VFR1200 in current form they probably didn't want to add more R&D cost to install a traction control system so the above statement for me rings very true "poor mans traction control". To think it was done because the drive train couldn't handle the torque in 1st & 2nd gear would mean there would be a potential for it to fail in any other gear which is crazy because in the end the available tyre grip is what will fail first. There is also the thought that maybe it was done for emissions & noise due to lower gears for a given speed the revs are higher, who really knows because your never going to get an official word from Honda. It is simply a strange thing to do to limit lower gears because some riders don't know how to use throttle control & maybe they only did it due to the target market as they don't do it to there full blown sportsbikes unless to abide by a particular countries regulations but that happens through all gears.

I applaud how there are people that always find solutions, I just would like a solution that means I can have the gear indicator still work 1st & 2nd now Honda have finally fitted something I always fit to my motorbikes.

vee1cut

First off...congrats to dutchgixxer for being what appears, on the verge of solving the lower gear power limitation. But would someone help me out here? I may have missed it but in all the reading of posts, I have not seen it addressed why the VFR1200 was detuned in the first place. Somewhere....in Japan...around some engineering table, the decision was made to do this. On a bike that is already at or beyond the maximum consumer price point, why did they elect for the added production costs of the sensors and what-not for this detuning? Was it to make the rear tire last longer? Was it to keep the front wheel on the ground? Was it to keep the rear passenger on the seat? Was it to prevent over-torqueing the shaft drive system? Somewhere out there is THE valid reason this was settled upon in that engineering room. I'm like everyone else in that there is a never ending desire for more power but before I snipped or jumpered anything on my brand new bike, I would have to understand what was on the minds of the people that built it that way. I understand rev limiters and I understand max speed cutouts designed in some bikes but this detuning in those lower gears is for some other reason. Please anyone/everyone give me your best guess as to what the reasoning might be. Thanks in advance.

I happened to read the test of the DCT in the current issue of Sport Rider in the store the other day. The commentary (I would assume this was the message from Honda) was that in the DCT the dual clutch basket is not quite as robust as that of a single clutch. Kinda makes sense since they are essentially stacked on top and concentric as well. The added 2 inches of width means the huge forces it must transmit are extended farther outbound on the coaxial shafts and clutch basket fingers, my intuition suggests it would not be as structurally sound as a thinner, more compact basket mounted on a solid shaft. This is not to say the structure is weak, but every component no matter how strong still has it's breaking point. Honda being traditionally conservative probably chose to err on the side of restraint and added reliability over all out performance.

That said, it does not explain why the same crippling in the first 2 gears is present on the standard clutch model which does not suffer the same mechanical concerns unique to the DCT. It could be that for the first year out they want to be conservative with both models to gain some real world reliability data, and perhaps dial back the degree of restraint in subsequent releases. Dunno why, but you have a good point that Honda (and virtually all companies) certainly has their rationale for the engineering decisions they make. The last thing any manufacturer wants is a massive design flaw that will cost them millions to fix. Just ask Aprilia about their RSV4 woes.

Did you see that youtube video of the kid that throws down his brand new gixxer as he guns it out of the dealership? Rear wheel just spins out like the tire was made out of plastic! Then down she goes...

I saw a video of the VFR1200 being driven by a journalist at a japanese track way back at the initial release and he spun out the rear wheel...saved it, but still... I have a feeling 'if you don't know what your doing' the torque at the rear wheel will bite you in 1st or 2nd gear in this new VFR1200, so Honda played it safe. That's all they needed, all kinds of stories about it being a 'dangerous' bike. I think that is why is has been restricted...poor man's traction control.

Brian

I think you hit the nail on its head. :biggrin:

Dutchgixxer

Did you see that youtube video of the kid that throws down his brand new gixxer as he guns it out of the dealership? Rear wheel just spins out like the tire was made out of plastic! Then down she goes...

I saw a video of the VFR1200 being driven by a journalist at a japanese track way back at the initial release and he spun out the rear wheel...saved it, but still... I have a feeling 'if you don't know what your doing' the torque at the rear wheel will bite you in 1st or 2nd gear in this new VFR1200, so Honda played it safe. That's all they needed, all kinds of stories about it being a 'dangerous' bike. I think that is why is has been restricted...poor man's traction control.

Brian

I think you hit the nail on its head. :biggrin:

I have chanced the scematic a bit. I have made de de restriction switchable. Some testing learned that when using sports tires ( i do ) in cold weather or in the wet its very easy to spin the rear wheel.

Phobe had alterted the wiring near the ecu. I have made the mod near the GPSensors connector. Its just a choise

[image: post-20539-081796300 1287037092_thumb.jp]

Dutchgixxer

Dutchgixxer

Did you see that youtube video of the kid that throws down his brand new gixxer as he guns it out of the dealership? Rear wheel just spins out like the tire was made out of plastic! Then down she goes...

I saw a video of the VFR1200 being driven by a journalist at a japanese track way back at the initial release and he spun out the rear wheel...saved it, but still... I have a feeling 'if you don't know what your doing' the torque at the rear wheel will bite you in 1st or 2nd gear in this new VFR1200, so Honda played it safe. That's all they needed, all kinds of stories about it being a 'dangerous' bike. I think that is why is has been restricted...poor man's traction control.

Brian

I think you hit the nail on its head. :biggrin:

I have chanced the scematic a bit. I have made de de restriction switchable. Some testing learned that when using sports tires ( i do ) in cold weather or in the wet its very easy to spin the rear wheel.

Phobe had alterted the wiring near the ecu. I have made the mod near the GPSensors connector. Its just a choise

[image: post-20539-081796300 1287037092_thumb.jp]

:idea3:Which explains why Honda put a restriction on in the first place, really........

Dutchgixxer

I have chanced the scematic a bit. I have made de de restriction switchable. Some testing learned that when using sports tires ( i do ) in cold weather or in the wet its very easy to spin the rear wheel.

Phobe had alterted the wiring near the ecu. I have made the mod near the GPSensors connector. Its just a choise

[image: post-20539-081796300 1287037092_thumb.jp]

Now you have individual switches for 1st and second gear... Good idea I might do the same. It's probably advisable not to flip the switches when the bike is in first or second. Otherwise you could throw a fault code.

edit: a DPDT switch would also work.

phobe

Dutchgixxer

I have chanced the scematic a bit. I have made de de restriction switchable. Some testing learned that when using sports tires ( i do ) in cold weather or in the wet its very easy to spin the rear wheel.

Phobe had alterted the wiring near the ecu. I have made the mod near the GPSensors connector. Its just a choise

[image: post-20539-081796300 1287037092_thumb.jp]

Now you have individual switches for 1st and second gear... Good idea I might do the same. It's probably advisable not to flip the switches when the bike is in first or second. Otherwise you could throw a fault code.

edit: a DPDT switch would also work.

Please explain what a DPDT switch is.

Thanks

DDO-VFR

Did you see that youtube video of the kid that throws down his brand new gixxer as he guns it out of the dealership? Rear wheel just spins out like the tire was made out of plastic! Then down she goes...

To be fair, the bike in that video had brand new, cold tires, which is pretty much like riding on ice if you give it any gas. I also have an '08 GSX-R1000, and believe me, you have to do something very stupid for the bike to get out of shape that badly with the tires in normal operating condition. I once watched an ex-racer dump his ZR-7 (hardly a fire-breathing monster) in the middle of the road after turning out of the parking lot to go home for the day. You just have to be careful...

Whether Honda is trying to save the drivetrain or the rider is anybody's guess at this point, but if I owned the bike, I would definitely want it unrestricted.

Dutchgixxer

phobe

Dutchgixxer

I have chanced the scematic a bit. I have made de de restriction switchable. Some testing learned that when using sports tires ( i do ) in cold weather or in the wet its very easy to spin the rear wheel.

Phobe had alterted the wiring near the ecu. I have made the mod near the GPSensors connector. Its just a choise

[image: post-20539-081796300 1287037092_thumb.jp]

Now you have individual switches for 1st and second gear... Good idea I might do the same. It's probably advisable not to flip the switches when the bike is in first or second. Otherwise you could throw a fault code.

edit: a DPDT switch would also work.

Please explain what a DPDT switch is.

Thanks

Double pole, double throw - Equivalent to two SPDT switches controlled by a single mechanism: A is connected to B and D to E, or A is connected to C and D to F.

Dutchgixxer

Now you have individual switches for 1st and second gear... Good idea I might do the same. It's probably advisable not to flip the switches when the bike is in first or second. Otherwise you could throw a fault code.

edit: a DPDT switch would also work.

Please explain what a DPDT switch is.

Thanks

Double-Pole-Double-Throw On-On switch. Like this one: http://www.thesource.ca/estore/Product.aspx?language=en-CA&catalog=Online&category=Switches+Switches&product=2750636

It is an "on-on" switch with 6 terminals. I think I might repair my harness wiring then install one of these under the seat tied into the wiring near the GPS for switchable power modes.

phobe

Dutchgixxer

Now you have individual switches for 1st and second gear... Good idea I might do the same. It's probably advisable not to flip the switches when the bike is in first or second. Otherwise you could throw a fault code.

edit: a DPDT switch would also work.

Please explain what a DPDT switch is.

Thanks

Double-Pole-Double-Throw On-On switch. Like this one: http://www.thesource.ca/estore/Product.aspx?language=en-CA&catalog=Online&category=Switches+Switches&product=2750636

It is an "on-on" switch with 6 terminals. I think I might repair my harness wiring then install one of these under the seat tied into the wiring near the GPS for switchable power modes.

Thanks for the explanation. I prefer 2 single On-On switches.

Dutchgixxer

phobe

Dutchgixxer

Now you have individual switches for 1st and second gear... Good idea I might do the same. It's probably advisable not to flip the switches when the bike is in first or second. Otherwise you could throw a fault code.

edit: a DPDT switch would also work.

Please explain what a DPDT switch is.

Thanks

Double-Pole-Double-Throw On-On switch. Like this one: http://www.thesource.ca/estore/Product.aspx?language=en-CA&catalog=Online&category=Switches+Switches&product=2750636

It is an "on-on" switch with 6 terminals. I think I might repair my harness wiring then install one of these under the seat tied into the wiring near the GPS for switchable power modes.

Thanks for the explanation. I prefer 2 single On-On switches.

Makes sense, gives you 4 options instead of 2.

Brian

I went to Radio Shack and bought the switch I linked to in post 19. Here is a crude illustration of how I plan to wire it.

I'll mount the switch under the seat... That will ensure that the bike has to be shut off to throw the switch.

I went to Radio Shack and bought the switch I linked to in post 19. Here is a crude illustration of how I plan to wire it.

I'll mount the switch under the seat... That will ensure that the bike has to be shut off to throw the switch.

phobe

I went to Radio Shack and bought the switch I linked to in post 19. Here is a crude illustration of how I plan to wire it.

I'll mount the switch under the seat... That will ensure that the bike has to be shut off to throw the switch.

Please, please just ride it as you've done now and relay a ride report... patience is tough for me :comp13:

phobe

I went to Radio Shack and bought the switch I linked to in post 19. Here is a crude illustration of how I plan to wire it.

I'll mount the switch under the seat... That will ensure that the bike has to be shut off to throw the switch.

I think your wiring diagram is false. In the derestriced mode 1st and 2 nd are always connected to the ECU. The ECU sees 2 gears engaged.

The GPS for 1st and 2nd wires have to move to both the middle ( P contact ) poles.

Did you see that youtube video of the kid that throws down his brand new gixxer as he guns it out of the dealership? Rear wheel just spins out like the tire was made out of plastic! Then down she goes...

I did this on my CB100 in 1972!!

Dutchgixxer

phobe

I went to Radio Shack and bought the switch I linked to in post 19. Here is a crude illustration of how I plan to wire it.

I'll mount the switch under the seat... That will ensure that the bike has to be shut off to throw the switch.

I think your wiring diagram is false. In the derestriced mode 1st and 2 nd are always connected to the ECU. The ECU sees 2 gears engaged.

The GPS for 1st and 2nd wires have to move to both the middle ( P contact ) poles.

Yeah I've definitely got it screwed up... I need to re-think this. Please explain your second sentence... I don't completely understand.

Respect guys. I'm just not brave enough to start a project as complex as this. I'll stick to looking at exhausts... :biggrin:

phobe

I went to Radio Shack and bought the switch I linked to in post 19. Here is a crude illustration of how I plan to wire it.

I'll mount the switch under the seat... That will ensure that the bike has to be shut off to throw the switch.

The wires coming from the GPS need to be in the middle of the switch, and either set of leads coming off either end. Then in one ON position the sensor is hooked to the ecm, on the other ON position, you GPS is hooked to your modded wiring where it sends the GPS signal right to the 3rd gear wire.

Jason

blkcruzer

phobe

I went to Radio Shack and bought the switch I linked to in post 19. Here is a crude illustration of how I plan to wire it.

I'll mount the switch under the seat... That will ensure that the bike has to be shut off to throw the switch.

The wires coming from the GPS need to be in the middle of the switch, and either set of leads coming off either end. Then in one ON position the sensor is hooked to the ecm, on the other ON position, you GPS is hooked to your modded wiring where it sends the GPS signal right to the 3rd gear wire.

Jason

:fing02:

blkcruzer

The wires coming from the GPS need to be in the middle of the switch, and either set of leads coming off either end. Then in one ON position the sensor is hooked to the ecm, on the other ON position, you GPS is hooked to your modded wiring where it sends the GPS signal right to the 3rd gear wire.

Jason

Bit more like this then:

[image: post-18833-001111300 1287166823_thumb.jp]

While taking risks always has it's cost/benefit tradeoffs, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that your warranty will most likely be null and void with this mod and one that will be detectable even if you decide later to remove this mod.

The only way to make it untraceable is to fabricate an intermediate harness that inserts between the GPS and main harness connector, thus not making any DIY looking cuts into the main harness. :idea3:

Solomoto

While taking risks always has it's cost/benefit tradeoffs, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that your warranty will most likely be null and void with this mod and one that will be detectable even if you decide later to remove this mod.

The only way to make it untraceable is to fabricate an intermediate harness that inserts between the GPS and main harness connector, thus not making any DIY looking cuts into the main harness. :idea3:

They can only deny warranty coverage on a specific repair if it somehow resulted from the changes you've made. Also warranties are administrated by dealerships... ergo if you have a good relationship with your dealership and it isn't any risk to them, they will still try to get stuff covered under warranty for you.

Moot point in my case anyway... Only 1 year of warranty on my bike which will expire this spring.

I have another theory on the torque limitation in first and second... It might be to keep the side gear case with its coil spring / cam damper from blowing up. A sudden high-torque hit will bang that cam into the coil spring really hard.

I wonder.....

I can almost guarantee you that the detuning in 1st and 2nd is due to something along the lines of your theory. Some people in the forum seem to have the opinion that Honda did this to help prevent people from spinning the tire or hurting themself like the internet idiot pulling out of the dealership on his gxxser. Well I say bullshit. A little dead is the same as alot dead. This bike has so much power in ALL the gears that I can't even believe it's a topic of conversation. I am so freaking thankful that I bought my bike before stumbling across this forum. I most likely would have read enough and decided "why in the world would I want that underpowered...short ranged...ugly as hell bike?" I rode about 200 miles of various twisties and open road this weekend in perfect weather and much of that time riding I was thinking about how much I love this rocket. Best bike I have ever had...hands down. I am in agreement with you that the detuning is for a mechanical reason so I won't be cutting wires on mine.

phobe

I have another theory on the torque limitation in first and second... It might be to keep the side gear case with its coil spring / cam damper from blowing up. A sudden high-torque hit will bang that cam into the coil spring really hard.

I wonder.....

vee1cut

I can almost guarantee you that the detuning in 1st and 2nd is due to something along the lines of your theory. Some people in the forum seem to have the opinion that Honda did this to help prevent people from spinning the tire or hurting themself like the internet idiot pulling out of the dealership on his gxxser. Well I say bullshit. A little dead is the same as alot dead. This bike has so much power in ALL the gears that I can't even believe it's a topic of conversation. I am so freaking thankful that I bought my bike before stumbling across this forum. I most likely would have read enough and decided "why in the world would I want that underpowered...short ranged...ugly as hell bike?" I rode about 200 miles of various twisties and open road this weekend in perfect weather and much of that time riding I was thinking about how much I love this rocket. Best bike I have ever had...hands down. I am in agreement with you that the detuning is for a mechanical reason so I won't be cutting wires on mine.

phobe

I have another theory on the torque limitation in first and second... It might be to keep the side gear case with its coil spring / cam damper from blowing up. A sudden high-torque hit will bang that cam into the coil spring really hard.

I wonder.....

Well i also say bullshit Why ?? in 1st and 2nd gear the bike is restricted. But till 5000 rpm. After 5000 rpm the power builds till a 150 hp on the back wheel.

If the gearbox could not cope with the power Honda should have made a restriction on top power not just at low revs because the power is there already lower.

The low rpm restriction in 1st and 2nd gear is just simple and cheap traction control.

I could absolutely smoke my rear tire in first or second gear if I so desired...so I am confused....if it is in fact "traction control", they need to refine it. And if it was only meant to offer some traction control qualities, why would it be this big corporate Honda secret? It seems to me that it could even be a marketing plus...that they would brag about this detuning which offers some traction control qualities and thus a safer machine...similar to ABS. I'm not meaning to sound argumentative or anything like that...it's just that the "dots aren't connecting" for me and I'm just curious.

Dutchgixxer

vee1cut

I can almost guarantee you that the detuning in 1st and 2nd is due to something along the lines of your theory. Some people in the forum seem to have the opinion that Honda did this to help prevent people from spinning the tire or hurting themself like the internet idiot pulling out of the dealership on his gxxser. Well I say bullshit. A little dead is the same as alot dead. This bike has so much power in ALL the gears that I can't even believe it's a topic of conversation. I am so freaking thankful that I bought my bike before stumbling across this forum. I most likely would have read enough and decided "why in the world would I want that underpowered...short ranged...ugly as hell bike?" I rode about 200 miles of various twisties and open road this weekend in perfect weather and much of that time riding I was thinking about how much I love this rocket. Best bike I have ever had...hands down. I am in agreement with you that the detuning is for a mechanical reason so I won't be cutting wires on mine.

phobe

I have another theory on the torque limitation in first and second... It might be to keep the side gear case with its coil spring / cam damper from blowing up. A sudden high-torque hit will bang that cam into the coil spring really hard.

I wonder.....

Well i also say bullshit Why ?? in 1st and 2nd gear the bike is restricted. But till 5000 rpm. After 5000 rpm the power builds till a 150 hp on the back wheel.

If the gearbox could not cope with the power Honda should have made a restriction on top power not just at low revs because the power is there already lower.

The low rpm restriction in 1st and 2nd gear is just simple and cheap traction control.

Dutchgixxer

Well i also say bullshit Why ?? in 1st and 2nd gear the bike is restricted. But till 5000 rpm. After 5000 rpm the power builds till a 150 hp on the back wheel.

If the gearbox could not cope with the power Honda should have made a restriction on top power not just at low revs because the power is there already lower.

The low rpm restriction in 1st and 2nd gear is just simple and cheap traction control.

Not the gearbox, the side gear case.

I still subscribe to the idea that Honda restricted it to protect us from ourselves... just thinking aloud is all. My brief ride in unrestricted mode cements this belief... the power comes on VERY strong off idle.

DutchGixxer: please take a look at this and tell me what you think:

http://vfr1200fa.blogspot.com/2010/11/switchable-power-modes-part-ii.html

phobe

DutchGixxer: please take a look at this and tell me what you think:

http://vfr1200fa.blogspot.com/2010/11/switchable-power-modes-part-ii.html

The trottle valve is operated by a closed loop servo system. The ECU reads the trottle valve position it is compared with its desired position. If there is a diffence ( error ) a correcting action is taken. The 4 wires are the 2 motor wires and 2 wires to measure the current trottle valve position. If one of the wires is cut or moddified the trottle by wire is not working any more. So do not mess with the closed loop servo.

Btw i am busy decoding the "serial link" to the combined dash indicator. to be continued. :cool:

Looking at the pictures near where you guys are making the modification.... Is that a standard molex connector that we could buy to create an inline harness with a switch, rather than cutting up the OEM wires?

warrenjrose

Looking at the pictures near where you guys are making the modification.... Is that a standard molex connector that we could buy to create an inline harness with a switch, rather than cutting up the OEM wires?

Yep and if you could build a bunch of them cheap I bet you could sell them for 50 bucks a shot.

You guys need to research the recent CBR1000RR, or at least the 2008 model.

Power was restricted in first, maybe second too. A tuner named Bazazz (sp?) came out with a plug in device, much like you speak of, to derestrict it.

Easily removed and put back to stock. A friend has one and is happy with it I believe. :fing02:

VFR4Lee

You guys need to research the recent CBR1000RR, or at least the 2008 model.

Power was restricted in first, maybe second too. A tuner named Bazazz (sp?) came out with a plug in device, much like you speak of, to derestrict it.

Easily removed and put back to stock. A friend has one and is happy with it I believe. :fing02:

It was actually a guy on either 1000rr.net or 1000rr.com that figured it out. Sold his home copy to a handful of WERA guys, then Bazzaz bought the rights from him. Since then DynoJet, and a handful of other companies came out with the same product.

phobe

warrenjrose

Looking at the pictures near where you guys are making the modification.... Is that a standard molex connector that we could buy to create an inline harness with a switch, rather than cutting up the OEM wires?

Yep and if you could build a bunch of them cheap I bet you could sell them for 50 bucks a shot.

Can you figure out wich molex connector it is ( Gear position sensor harnas near the switch ) ? Thank is advance !

Who can provide me 2 pair of Gear Position Sensor plugs. 2 male and 2 female plugs. I Will send you a wiring harness back with switch-able 1st and 2nd gear de restriction abillity .

[image: post-20539-0-68703100-1294081161_thumb.j]

It is a 8 pole connector with 7 poles used.

Copied and saved... thanks to everyone for fixing the dip in the power

band... when will Honda ever learn to quit messy up the V4s naturally

linear flow of power??? first it was the silly VTEC... next it was

this dip in the Veefalos's power band... mercy for the VFR riders...

they ain't beginners...

I would buy a plug and play 1st/2nd derestrictor that kept the gear indicator functionally correct. In other words, if this was refined a bit it would sell.

Going to the Bazzaz website, they have nothing for this bike, no e-mail address, and when I called an no one answered, I left a message asking if they might

offer anything for the VFR. So far, no response.

BusyLittleShop

Copied and saved... thanks to everyone for fixing the dip in the power

band... when will Honda ever learn to quit messy up the V4s naturally

linear flow of power??? first it was the silly VTEC... next it was

this dip in the Veefalos's power band... mercy for the VFR riders...

they ain't beginners...

Oh man, I have no idea where to find those connectors but I'd pay good money to someone who does! :). That would be awesome.

Awesome photos Larry!

What program is this for rear suspension analysis?

[image: RC45 Stock Ratios1]

Do you know Brian Sharp at Boulder Motorsports? I'm a former Duc owner...

BusyLittleShop

Copied and saved... thanks to everyone for fixing the dip in the power

band... when will Honda ever learn to quit messy up the V4s naturally

linear flow of power??? first it was the silly VTEC... next it was

this dip in the Veefalos's power band... mercy for the VFR riders...

they ain't beginners...

Alang

Awesome photos Larry!

What program is this for rear suspension analysis?

http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

Do you know Brian Sharp at Boulder Motorsports? I'm a former Duc owner...

I attended a $200 2 day Tony Foale seminar and that program was one of the benefits...

http://www.tonyfoale.com/

The name Brian Sharp doesn't not ring a bell...

OK, waiting for the final version of the plug and play derestrictor for the Viffer 1200...

Alang

OK, waiting for the final version of the plug and play derestrictor for the Viffer 1200...

Mine is ready and working. It is not PnP but is works. its switchable so for me it is not a problem that the gear indicator gives false reading in 1 st and 2nd gear.

The bike wheelies off the throttle in 1st :)

I don't think Bazzaz has any intentions of doing VFR1200 stuff, and if you can plug and play with correct gear indication, you can market this product. Maybe Powercommander/Dynojet will do something like this in the future. In the mean time, the market is waiting IMO.

Mine is ready and working. It is not PnP but is works. its switchable so for me it is not a problem that the gear indicator gives false reading in 1 st and 2nd gear.

The bike wheelies off the throttle in 1st :)

Any updates on this? I'm a structural engineer, but not too electrically inclined. And would prefer a plug and play w/o splicng any wires. Like the O2 manipulators I used on my Ducati.

You could remove them in the future if you needed to. Someone could make some money on this idea before Dynojet gets around to it.

On the CBR1000, do you mean the timing retarder eliminator? My 08 CBR1000 had the redline area of the rpm timing restriction that cut 6 hp. So powercommander TRE plug and play

added back 6 hp on top end.

Alang

Any updates on this? I'm a structural engineer, but not too electrically inclined. And would prefer a plug and play w/o splicng any wires. Like the O2 manipulators I used on my Ducati.

You could remove them in the future if you needed to. Someone could make some money on this idea before Dynojet gets around to it.

On the CBR1000, do you mean the timing retarder eliminator? My 08 CBR1000 had the redline area of the rpm timing restriction that cut 6 hp. So powercommander TRE plug and play

added back 6 hp on top end.

Supply me the right connectors. I will make you a wireing harness.

Larry, Phobe, any way to get the correct connectors?

Thanks

Alang

Larry, Phobe, any way to get the correct connectors?

Thanks

I have just been out on the 1200. Made the first 70 km on the VFR in 2011. Roads where dry so i could play a little with the bike. The derestriction works fabulous. The hessitation in 1st and 2 nd gear below 5000 rpm is completely gone. The sudden torque increase if the revs rise is not feelable any more. Its a better mod than putting a Akra on the VFR. Costs of this mod $7. Espesially fore mountain roads riding ( i use the low rev range a lot comming out of tight bends) this mod is very adviseable.

I have also experienced the quality of the öhlins rear shock. What a difference. Its more comftable but better damped. I have to tune it futher. But i need warm tarmac for that :cool:

see this link:

http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/2010-honda-vfr1200f/o/m19229#sch657650

Can you tell me which parts are needed Dutch?

Thanks

Alang

see this link:

http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/2010-honda-vfr1200f/o/m19229#sch657650

Can you tell me which parts are needed Dutch?

Thanks

Please check post #46. I need a male and a female connector.

If anyone finds a source for these plugs, and would like one built, I would be willing for the stateside guys...but I don't have a source for the plug, and the picture given is not very legible unfortunately. Nice work tho!

I'd Luv to have a true plug and play piece of apparatus to rid the bike of this dumbed down mode!!

If you have a true interest, please post up, so perhaps we can see this come to fruition....

It would be most awesome :fing02:

Giving this some additional thought, whoever makes these ECU connectors for Honda isnt about to give us a few..

As far as these being replicated on the aftermarket..I just don't think so..... with that being said, I fear the only way

to do this would be to cut wires...

After speaking with Dynojet this afternoon, the connection they are gonna use, is behind the fuel tank, not that

they would part with anything even so... or would their vendor

So It really looks like a snip to cure the dip might be the only way!

VFRider

Giving this some additional thought, whoever makes these ECU connectors for Honda isnt about to give us a few..

As far as these being replicated on the aftermarket..I just don't think so..... with that being said, I fear the only way

to do this would be to cut wires...

After speaking with Dynojet this afternoon, the connection they are gonna use, is behind the fuel tank, not that

they would part with anything even so... or would their vendor

So It really looks like a snip to cure the dip might be the only way!

So, with the snip method, does the gear indicator say 3 in 1st 2nd and 3rd gear?

Alang

VFRider

Giving this some additional thought, whoever makes these ECU connectors for Honda isnt about to give us a few..

As far as these being replicated on the aftermarket..I just don't think so..... with that being said, I fear the only way

to do this would be to cut wires...

After speaking with Dynojet this afternoon, the connection they are gonna use, is behind the fuel tank, not that

they would part with anything even so... or would their vendor

So It really looks like a snip to cure the dip might be the only way!

So, with the snip method, does the gear indicator say 3 in 1st 2nd and 3rd gear?

Yes you are right. The ecm is fooled to derestricd 1 st and 2nd gear. The ECU thinks the 3 rd gear is used while it gearbox is in 1st or 2nd. It works perfectly and its a simple mod.

1st gear = 3rd

neutral = neutral

2nd = 3rd

3rd = 3rd

4 th = 4th

5th = 5th

6th = 6th

If you do not like wheelies you can decide to leave the 1st gear as it is. :biggrin:

Sadly, nothing for the DCT :sad:

VFRider

I'd Luv to have a true plug and play piece of apparatus to rid the bike of this dumbed down mode!!

If you have a true interest, please post up, so perhaps we can see this come to fruition....

It would be most awesome :fing02:

Hi VFRRider,

I am also interseted in a true plug and play connector. Maybe it is possible to get one through the Honda dealer (without cable harness).

Ralf.

Ralfralf

VFRider

I'd Luv to have a true plug and play piece of apparatus to rid the bike of this dumbed down mode!!

If you have a true interest, please post up, so perhaps we can see this come to fruition....

It would be most awesome :fing02:

Hi VFRRider,

I am also interseted in a true plug and play connector. Maybe it is possible to get one through the Honda dealer (without cable harness).

Ralf.

Honda is not going to help you! Honda has decided to restrict. They will not help to derestrict

News Flash

Honda dealers worldwide report vadalism to their VFR1200 on the showroom floor.

It appears that cable end are cut to remove a plug.

This mystery baffles Honda HQ.

Investigation continue.....

:laughing6-hehe:

Dutchy

News Flash

Honda dealers worldwide report vadalism to their VFR1200 on the showroom floor.

It appears that cable end are cut to remove a plug.

This mystery baffles Honda HQ.

Investigation continue.....

:laughing6-hehe:

:laughing6-hehe:

Dutchgixxer

Dutchy

News Flash

Honda dealers worldwide report vadalism to their VFR1200 on the showroom floor.

It appears that cable end are cut to remove a plug.

This mystery baffles Honda HQ.

Investigation continue.....

:laughing6-hehe:

:laughing6-hehe:

So who's been a naughty boy!!! :rolleyes:

fotodadi

Sadly, nothing for the DCT :sad:

Got this from another site. The author is a Honda Mechanic.

"the thing is like this...

you wont derestrict it as it is not restricted in anyway. The clutches are programed to ingage softly at a rate that the gear change is hapening much quicker than any person can do on a regular gearbox. Meaning that if the 1st and 2nd were restricted the clutch engage rate should be diferent for those two gears...but it isnt ;) .

All together it is a complicated system that you dont want to mess with with any resistor plugs or symilar...

Trust me when i say...leave it alone.

So lets get to the speed limitation...

again it is in the ECU and it is there because bikes cyclistics are not up to the higher speeds than the 250 km/h she is doing now (and Honda dont wants that somebody gets killed at that speed as the bike could be unstable ower 250 km/h).

Alltogether it is a triple secured system and it is impossible to change it without interfering in the ECU (only Honda can do that in the factory, but they wont) and fooling around with some blind plugs or resistor plugs for the wire loom conections will throw a fault light on your dashboard and you will be able to engage the 1st or 2nd gear only (sort of a limp mode to help you get to the nearest Honda service if something goes bad on the trip).

And then you wil need help of course (to get that gearbox back in neutral and get you going again).

Bottom line...dont touch anything on the bike...do not disconect any sensors, cable conectors or unknown switches as it will triger the fault light and it will record the faults in the ECU unit."

I think its safe to say that this applies only to the DCT bike. Means my dream is up in smoke! :angry:

fotodadi

fotodadi

Sadly, nothing for the DCT :sad:

Got this from another site. The author is a Honda Mechanic.

"the thing is like this...

you wont derestrict it as it is not restricted in anyway. The clutches are programed to ingage softly at a rate that the gear change is hapening much quicker than any person can do on a regular gearbox. Meaning that if the 1st and 2nd were restricted the clutch engage rate should be diferent for those two gears...but it isnt ;) .

All together it is a complicated system that you dont want to mess with with any resistor plugs or symilar...

Trust me when i say...leave it alone.

So lets get to the speed limitation...

again it is in the ECU and it is there because bikes cyclistics are not up to the higher speeds than the 250 km/h she is doing now (and Honda dont wants that somebody gets killed at that speed as the bike could be unstable ower 250 km/h).

Alltogether it is a triple secured system and it is impossible to change it without interfering in the ECU (only Honda can do that in the factory, but they wont) and fooling around with some blind plugs or resistor plugs for the wire loom conections will throw a fault light on your dashboard and you will be able to engage the 1st or 2nd gear only (sort of a limp mode to help you get to the nearest Honda service if something goes bad on the trip).

And then you wil need help of course (to get that gearbox back in neutral and get you going again).

Bottom line...dont touch anything on the bike...do not disconect any sensors, cable conectors or unknown switches as it will triger the fault light and it will record the faults in the ECU unit."

I think its safe to say that this applies only to the DCT bike. Means my dream is up in smoke! :angry:

For the DCT the only mod possible is the speed derestriction mod. I you tell the ecu that the speed is 250 km/h while riding faster there is no error generated.

For the manual clutch type all the mods are easy with no errors generated. No restistors are needed.

I am no Honda technichan but an electrical engineer.

Dutchgixxer

For the DCT the only mod possible is the speed derestriction mod. I you tell the ecu that the speed is 250 km/h while riding faster there is no error generated.

I am no Honda technichan but an electrical engineer.

Great!

The problem I see is that the ECU also uses the speed to determine gear change. The challenge will be to build some circuit that will allow the speed signal to get to the ECU at lower speeds (so that gear changes can occur) and cut the signal at high speeds so that the restriction is lifted (since the bike would already be in high gear). A "high speed" switch might do the trick but right now I can even find the wire (still looking for the wiring diagram)

An alternative will be to switch to manual mode when this switch is flipped. In manual mode, the ECU doesn't need to know the speed (since rider is changing gears himself)........but then another problem, ho do you prevent the engine from stalling? OR not. Since there is no speed, ECU might not engage next gear change (even though you gave the signal from the paddle).

So many unknowns!!!

Search continues!

fotodadi

Dutchgixxer

For the DCT the only mod possible is the speed derestriction mod. I you tell the ecu that the speed is 250 km/h while riding faster there is no error generated.

I am no Honda technichan but an electrical engineer.

Great!

The problem I see is that the ECU also uses the speed to determine gear change. The challenge will be to build some circuit that will allow the speed signal to get to the ECU at lower speeds (so that gear changes can occur) and cut the signal at high speeds so that the restriction is lifted (since the bike would already be in high gear). A "high speed" switch might do the trick but right now I can even find the wire (still looking for the wiring diagram)

An alternative will be to switch to manual mode when this switch is flipped. In manual mode, the ECU doesn't need to know the speed (since rider is changing gears himself)........but then another problem, ho do you prevent the engine from stalling? OR not. Since there is no speed, ECU might not engage next gear change (even though you gave the signal from the paddle).

So many unknowns!!!

Search continues!

On the ABS modulator is a signal available VSP out. VSP goes to indicator panel and to the ecu.

Interfere in the wire to the ECU. Make a frequency compartor If VSP > 250 km/h then set frequency to ecu at 250 km/h [hz]. Pb me for the calculations.

DutchgixxerOn the ABS modulator is a signal available VSP out. VSP goes to indicator panel and to the ecu.

Interfere in the wire to the ECU. Make a frequency compartor If VSP > 250 km/h then set frequency to ecu at 250 km/h [hz]. Pb me for the calculations.

Sent you a PM already! Thanks.

I'm a structural engineer :(, not electrical. But I do know V = I*R :)

Alang

I'm a structural engineer :(, not electrical. But I do know V = I*R :)

That should be enough :) Just ride the VFR1200f and enjoy !

this thread has been an enjoyable read...funny and informative...thanks to you renegades out there.

any update on Bazzaz products for the VFR1200? Nothing on their website yet.

I'm sure there will be a delay, just like Powercommander.

Yep, delays. ...they have some of the connectors, but are still waiting for others. I've asked for a printout / screen shot of the dyno charts, but haven't been given anything yet. As soon as I have something, I'll be sure to report back. :fing02:

Hoping to see the Bazzaz dyno chart!

Alang

Hoping to see the Bazzaz dyno chart!

Yeah, they've been pretty non-communicative since I picked up the VFR (my KTM 950 Adventure is taking up space in their shop though). ...they've been great in person, but not so much on the correspondence side of things. I'd asked again for the dyno charts, but never heard anything back. :(

I'm sure when the production bits are ready, and I drop off the VFR again I'll be able to get the charts printed out. It will be interesting to see if my VFR makes a little better power now that it's *really* broken in (5000 miles vs. 1700 when I dropped it off).

...here's hoping I hear from them soon. :)

They will probably release information when they get production up and ready. Getting the right plugs seems to be the stumbling block for Powercommander and probably them too.

MSGTR

They will probably release information when they get production up and ready. Getting the right plugs seems to be the stumbling block for Powercommander and probably them too.

He who will get the plugs first will corner the market...........

talked to bazzaz just now; pretty soon they said

Bazzaz end of May FI

October z bomb derestrictor

Just saw the latest Motorcyclist has a blurb on the 1200 and VFRD got an honorable mention on the power derestriction of 1st and 2nd :fing02:

I'm sure that when Dynojet rolls out their pc5 for the VFR1200F, they will have the de-restriction worked out.

Its kind of a must for them, as they will be working with in the ecm harness to determine the gearing for map by gear anyway.

I'd be that it's just a change to the Throttle by wire positioning map.

mrmatt

Just saw the latest Motorcyclist has a blurb on the 1200 and VFRD got an honorable mention on the power derestriction of 1st and 2nd :fing02:

Have not seen any money yet :biggrin:

And PC-V is available and will give the 1200 the low down wings its deserves. :cheerleader:

I would also prefer a plug and play version of this mod rather than buying a PC5 or alike any news on this being available

thanks guys

vfrobb

I would also prefer a plug and play version of this mod rather than buying a PC5 or alike any news on this being available

thanks guys

The problem is the connectors i can not buy them. So i have to cut some wires. The moddification is simple though.

Dutchgixxer

vfrobb

I would also prefer a plug and play version of this mod rather than buying a PC5 or alike any news on this being available

thanks guys

The problem is the connectors i can not buy them. So i have to cut some wires. The moddification is simple though.

Dutch ive looked all through this thread when you do the mod do you actually cut the wires or simply join another piece to them in order to join them to gear 1 wire so they are all shorted

Little worried in doing something as perminant as this whilst the bike is still under warrantee as it could be detected by the stealer should anything happen

[image: 5734ebbfbdce1_post-20539-081796300128703]

The wires for the first and second gear positions have to be cut and connected to the switch.

If the connectors are available i am willing to produce and sell a plug and play derestrictor .

Dutchgixxer

[image: 5734ebbfbdce1_post-20539-081796300128703]

The wires for the first and second gear positions have to be cut and connected to the switch.

If the connectors are available i am willing to produce and sell a plug and play derestrictor .

Dutch if you can get them Ill buy one or if you can think of another way of the mod being removed without trace Ill buy that, want the mod but dont want the agro should the worst happen and a warrenty claim be imminent

Albeit I want this mod with a passion and dont like being told by anyone let alone Honda how much power I am trusted with, I havnt read here from anyone who has done the mod how good it is, is the power difference enough to make the bike wheelie in first gear off the throttle is the gain in 2nd gear really noticable

I really dont want to start chopping the loom and risk the warrenty issues if the cons outway the pros if you see what I mean

With the mod done de VFR will wheely in 1st gear without using the clutch. On a damp road it will spin the back wheel in 2nd.

with the mod done fast acceleration is much smoother because there is no big torque increase @ 5000 rpm.

Dutchgixxer

with the mod done fast acceleration is much smoother because there is no big torque increase @ 5000 rpm.

What about slow acceleration. It is the first gear smoothness around 3k to 4 k rpms that I am looking for particularly in suburbia. Would also be nice not to have to use 1st in the twisties. The PCV has smoothed out 2nd but not 1st. I hoped this mod will.

Cheers

Seddo

Their is a discussion on Bikers Oracle that talks about a ECU update that honda is doing to some bikes that have low speed issues.

has anyone here seen this?

http://www.bikersoracle.com/vfr/forum/showthread.php?t=111483

vfrobb

Albeit I want this mod with a passion and dont like being told by anyone let alone Honda how much power I am trusted with, I havnt read here from anyone who has done the mod how good it is, is the power difference enough to make the bike wheelie in first gear off the throttle is the gain in 2nd gear really noticable

I really dont want to start chopping the loom and risk the warrenty issues if the cons outway the pros if you see what I mean

I didnt want to wait for the Bazzaz harness which would be like 40 bucks since all the cuts can be done on the GPS harness and not the main harness. I figure at worst case scenario and I have a warranty issue i can replace the GPS for 65 bucks or so and get it back to factory. I shoulda did this mod sooner. Its that good.

tin

vfrobb

Albeit I want this mod with a passion and dont like being told by anyone let alone Honda how much power I am trusted with, I havnt read here from anyone who has done the mod how good it is, is the power difference enough to make the bike wheelie in first gear off the throttle is the gain in 2nd gear really noticable

I really dont want to start chopping the loom and risk the warrenty issues if the cons outway the pros if you see what I mean

I didnt want to wait for the Bazzaz harness which would be like 40 bucks since all the cuts can be done on the GPS harness and not the main harness. I figure at worst case scenario and I have a warranty issue i can replace the GPS for 65 bucks or so and get it back to factory. I shoulda did this mod sooner. Its that good.

My dealer told me de ECU reprogramming or ECU upgrade is a hoax. Honda did not inform him about a upgrade. For now a PC-v and the 1st and 2nd gear derestriction will cure a lot :)

Dutchgixxer

tin

vfrobb

Albeit I want this mod with a passion and dont like being told by anyone let alone Honda how much power I am trusted with, I havnt read here from anyone who has done the mod how good it is, is the power difference enough to make the bike wheelie in first gear off the throttle is the gain in 2nd gear really noticable

I really dont want to start chopping the loom and risk the warrenty issues if the cons outway the pros if you see what I mean

I didnt want to wait for the Bazzaz harness which would be like 40 bucks since all the cuts can be done on the GPS harness and not the main harness. I figure at worst case scenario and I have a warranty issue i can replace the GPS for 65 bucks or so and get it back to factory. I shoulda did this mod sooner. Its that good.

My dealer told me de ECU reprogramming or ECU upgrade is a hoax. Honda did not inform him about a upgrade. For now a PC-v and the 1st and 2nd gear derestriction will cure a lot :)

Reprogramming ECU is scheduled next week for my VFR. :)

In france, dealers are informed about this update.

I expect an improvement in low speed.

Eudes

Dutchgixxer

tin

vfrobb

Albeit I want this mod with a passion and dont like being told by anyone let alone Honda how much power I am trusted with, I havnt read here from anyone who has done the mod how good it is, is the power difference enough to make the bike wheelie in first gear off the throttle is the gain in 2nd gear really noticable

I really dont want to start chopping the loom and risk the warrenty issues if the cons outway the pros if you see what I mean

I didnt want to wait for the Bazzaz harness which would be like 40 bucks since all the cuts can be done on the GPS harness and not the main harness. I figure at worst case scenario and I have a warranty issue i can replace the GPS for 65 bucks or so and get it back to factory. I shoulda did this mod sooner. Its that good.

My dealer told me de ECU reprogramming or ECU upgrade is a hoax. Honda did not inform him about a upgrade. For now a PC-v and the 1st and 2nd gear derestriction will cure a lot :)

Reprogramming ECU is scheduled next week for my VFR. :)

In france, dealers are informed about this update.

I expect an improvement in low speed.

Thanks for your information. Keep us informed ! :fing02:

Eudes,

Why would you buy a 100+ HP bike If the government is going to limit it to 100?

It's very simple, give me a recent bike with a correct torque and less than 100 HP... :)

you can ask too: Why you would buy a 100+ bike if there are strict speed limits? :biggrin:

Of course, that's not allowed, but there is always a way to retrieve the full HP on French bike.

For the moment, restricted power mode on this bike is enough for me , may be my opinion will change in few month.

I hope that this french particularity will be removed in few years.

Speed limits? What are speed limits? :)

I get your point. Have fun.

DutchgixxerWho can provide me 2 pair of Gear Position Sensor plugs. 2 male and 2 female plugs. I Will send you a wiring harness back with switch-able 1st and 2nd gear de restriction abillity .

It is a 8 pole connector with 7 poles used.

This looks like a connector I have on my acura. Will get back to you

Plug & play de-restricting mod with no cutting and easy to return to stock protecting my extended warranty that has already gotten me a free new $1,115.91 ECU once that can now make my VFR1200F bring my front wheel up in 1st gear throttle only is how I want to play the game.

My VFR can and does do power wheelies in 1st gear now with the new ECU but, I have to crack the throttle @ 4000rpm to get that wheel to elevate and she comes up to about a foot off the ground too, did a nice one yesterday on my way up to GMR.

fasterspider

My VFR can and does do power wheelies in 1st gear now with the new ECU but, I have to crack the throttle @ 4000rpm to get that wheel to elevate and she comes up to about a foot off the ground too, did a nice one yesterday on my way up to GMR.

:worthlesswithoutpics:

:tour: :tour: :tour:

I don't know how to get an image of my bike doing a power wheelie but, I may be able to get my buddy to get a video of my doing one.

I found out for real that my VFR1200F most definately does stop going faster at 157mph when a limiter of some kind comes on and stops her from accelerating.

Any news about the availability of the connectors for the plug able derestrictor ?

The Female Connector The male Side

Are these correct?

Is similar, but not the same.

Have you guys checked with Eastern Beaver? He seems to have access to all kinds of OEM electrical connections that the outside world can never source. He's helped me several times in the past. It would be worth a try.

http://easternbeaver.com/

I am about to buy a 011 VFR and have been reading about all this 1st/2nd gear, or 2000 - 4000 rpm power drop off, can see it clearly in any dyno charts too.

I guess maybe I'm too simplistic here but wouldn't an aftermarket pipe and power commander fuel remapping solve most all of this?

Also, anyone with any experience with "DAM" slip on's out of the Netherlands (damexhaust.com)? Great looking and sounding exhaust. Not sure if it's a language barrier thing but can't get a straight answer if exhaust needs fuel remapping, I would think it does.

Hello W,

Never heard of dam :tongue: ; btw Dam is Belgian, not Dutch :tour:

If you are seriously considering one, I could drop them an email.

doubleU

I guess maybe I'm too simplistic here but wouldn't an aftermarket pipe and power commander fuel remapping solve most all of this?

No. The restriction is presumably a timing retardation. A power commander only alters air/fuel ratio, not ignition timing.

I've suspected that the restriction could be a clipped throttle map, rather than an ignition map. And if that were the case, the same would be true.... a power commander would have no effect.

phobe

doubleU

I guess maybe I'm too simplistic here but wouldn't an aftermarket pipe and power commander fuel remapping solve most all of this?

No. The restriction is presumably a timing retardation. A power commander only alters air/fuel ratio, not ignition timing.

I've suspected that the restriction could be a clipped throttle map, rather than an ignition map. And if that were the case, the same would be true.... a power commander would have no effect.

True that, the VFR is now throttle by wire so crippling the power is a rather simple matter of restricting the throttle in a controlled manner. I wonder how Bazazz claims to get around this unless they've figured out how to remap the throttle control, that's a lot more involved than simply intercepting and modifying the fuel injector controls as does Power Commander. Altering the fuel-air ratio or ignition timing simply cannot compensate for a closed throttle.

Bazzaz is doing the same thing Dutchgixxer did.... hack the GPS

doubleU

I am about to buy a 011 VFR and have been reading about all this 1st/2nd gear, or 2000 - 4000 rpm power drop off, can see it clearly in any dyno charts too.

I guess maybe I'm too simplistic here but wouldn't an aftermarket pipe and power commander fuel remapping solve most all of this?

Also, anyone with any experience with "DAM" slip on's out of the Netherlands (damexhaust.com)? Great looking and sounding exhaust. Not sure if it's a language barrier thing but can't get a straight answer if exhaust needs fuel remapping, I would think it does.

I have the DAM slip on, great sound and good looking :smile:

I will not get rid of the 1st/2nd gear power drop off, this is ECU s/w made by Honda :sad:

I did not do a fuel remapping, bike drives nice with this slip on. Even better then with the original. (and great sound)

Dam just received CE approvement.

I also have the DAM exhaust, and the PCV. I did them both at the same time, and used both the Jardine and 2 Bros PCV maps. A few weeks ago I got a DAM PCV map sent to me by someone on the forums. I loaded it yesterday. Haven't tested it yet, but will during the week. I love the DAM exhaust. Looks just right for the bike, and sounds fantastic, especially the popping on the overrun. I did the Snowy Ride down here recently, so when I have cleaned the bike, I will post some pictures.

Cheers

Seddo

This topic is about derestriced 1st and 2nd gear. Not about exhausts. So mod ......................

I saw this posted on another forum (guy called tin-tin). It sounds like a great idea given that no one can get their hands on the 8 pin Honda connector. What do you think?

"I know that the 8 pin gps connector is hard to find but the pins in the harness cant be too special I would think. has anyone ever just done the conversion at the pin level with a couple of extra 3 pin connectors that take the same pin size as the OEM 8 pin and just make a separate 3 pin jumper harness. I didnt do it this way because I dont have an extended warranty but I would think this would work. I guess if I have to take it back for warranty in the couple months i have left, I would probably just cut all the wires for the gps harness and repin the connector. I doubt anyone would notice that the harness was half an inch shorter. I dont know. just kind of brainstorming."

Dutchgixxer

This topic is about derestriced 1st and 2nd gear. Not about exhausts. So mod ......................

Well, I spoke with the Corporate Honda guys at the motorcycle show yesterday; the 2012 fuel map has changed to take out the bog, because it has traction control to make up for it.

..and it's gonna be Blue.

Sorry i do not understand your post. please explain ....

Reading this I was wondering if they already had some changes done in the ECU update (that is available at least in Europe). I mean getting rid of the limitations in 1st/2nd gear. I have the update done but since it is winter hear in Finland it is a bit difficult to organize a Dyno test to find out. I asked this already on another forum if somebody had tested it but no comment yet.

I spoke with the Honda-USA guys at the show. They have changed the ECU program to eliminate the problems that we have been trying to fix by adding Powercommanders, etc. They have told me that the second gear problem has been fixed because they have added traction control to protect their liability.

We also (only) get one color at a time in the USA, 2012 will be blue. 2010/2011 were both red.

No white, no silver, no black.. :sad:

Traction control can be disabled. In which way the 1st and 2nd gears work when TC is disabled?

btw, I just got my new 2010 VFR1200 and tech checked honda service website - there is no ECU updates available for the USA.

So, I bit the bullet and did this fix yesterday.

About 1/2 way through, I'm looking at body parts all over the garage on a brand-new bike, screws, bolts and clips rattling in a cup and a birds nest of clipped wires... I'm thinking "Oh hell... I screwed up and will never get all this back together."

Well, I did, and holy hell am I glad I did this. It's like a whole new bike. Power delivery in 1st and 2nd is notably more linear, low end grunt is really REALLY evident, not to mention the sound is even better due to the exhaust valve opening up in the useable rev range.

THANK you for the information guys, seriously.

I hope this is the right place for this.

I called Bazzaz today, ref Z-Bomb. Connection supplier says delivery is scheduled for the 13th. I'm waiting on the call next week to confirm and place my order. With a DCT I cannot take a chance with gear selection / identification problems at the ECU.

BigLew

I hope this is the right place for this.

I called Bazzaz today, ref Z-Bomb. Connection supplier says delivery is scheduled for the 13th. I'm waiting on the call next week to confirm and place my order. With a DCT I cannot take a chance with gear selection / identification problems at the ECU.

Any news from Bazzaz?

I posted it up under "ordered my.................." in the 7th gen forum. They are available now. Ride safe.

pete2

Any news from Bazzaz?

Bazzaz has a distibutor also in Finland, in case you are going to buy...

Check bazzaz.net

Sorry for the delays. Connector only made at certain times of the year. It's ready.

[image: VFR%20Z-bomb%20charts.jpg]

Bazzaz

Sorry for the delays. Connector only made at certain times of the year. It's ready.

[image: VFR%20Z-bomb%20charts.jpg]

Brilliant.

I hope you've got a good stock of those connectors :)

Did you think of adding a switch so that we would effectively have the option of traction control?

Peter

All this 1200 talk has got me wanting one now... Maybe this will be the replacement bike for when I'm back on my financial feet again. Nice to see that this place played a big part in figuring out and correcting the flawed "Honda knows best" thinking!

I'm not sure if I want to "fix" that dump in my 2010, first of the Z bomb on ebay says it dont work for DCT models. Plus that bog only bothers me in sport mode, I use drive for bad weather etc [since Honda got stingy and used 2010 as test rabbits, so TC didnt come out till now...]. I rode winth S mode all the time at first but even in San Diego during winter it rains sometimes, and after almost kissing a HVY divider I decided that speed+power+rain=a very bad day, pure luck and a little bit of skill taken from sliding around on my old 750 rear drum brake kept me from lowsiding. TC is a must if youre planning on going full power in bad weather. Now if any one ever ghettorigged a mod that would eliminate the bog in sport mode and manual only than hell yea but for now I think its a bad idea, unless you never ride in rain that is.

Just read through this thread from start to finish, very interesting, great detective work on both sides of the ocean! :fing02:

For the life of me I can't imagine how anyone could look at those dyno charts and NOT spend the relatively paltry price for a Z-Bomb. While some might say it's too much power in the lower gears, I say look at how smooooth the torque curve is with the z-bomb installed! The peaks and valleys are gone, so no unpleasant surprises. Now the power delivery is controlled by your right hand instead of a little microchip in a little silver box. That's how it should be.

D Dave

DDO-VFR

'vee1cut

First off...congrats to dutchgixxer for being what appears, on the verge of solving the lower gear power limitation. But would someone help me out here? I may have missed it but in all the reading of posts, I have not seen it addressed why the VFR1200 was detuned in the first place. Somewhere....in Japan...around some engineering table, the decision was made to do this. On a bike that is already at or beyond the maximum consumer price point, why did they elect for the added production costs of the sensors and what-not for this detuning? Was it to make the rear tire last longer? Was it to keep the front wheel on the ground? Was it to keep the rear passenger on the seat? Was it to prevent over-torqueing the shaft drive system? Somewhere out there is THE valid reason this was settled upon in that engineering room. I'm like everyone else in that there is a never ending desire for more power but before I snipped or jumpered anything on my brand new bike, I would have to understand what was on the minds of the people that built it that way. I understand rev limiters and I understand max speed cutouts designed in some bikes but this detuning in those lower gears is for some other reason. Please anyone/everyone give me your best guess as to what the reasoning might be. Thanks in advance.

'Solomoto

'Dutchgixxer

I have derestricted the 1st and 2nd gear power limitations. I have made a simple scematic :

[image: attachicon.gif]Gearposition_sensor_VFR1200f.jpg

[image: attachicon.gif]GPS_mod.jpg

You will get falsh readings on the dash when 1st or 2nd gear are engaged.

I am busy decoding the serial link between ECU and dash.

To be continued

While this looks feasible in some respects, I would caution that unless you know what the I/O interface properties are, you may be violating circuit constraints which would then risk a blown sensor or worse. I offer the following scenarios:

1. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted Low (or simply grounded) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired OR gate and will logically work.

2. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted High (or simply opened) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired AND gate and will NOT work as all 3 outputs must be asserted High simultaneously which will never happen.

3. Each output of the GPS is a CMOS type output that is asserted High (i.e. actively driven high) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a definite circuit rules violation as the output that is attempted to be driven high will be actively countered by the other two outputs which are actively driven Low, thus causing a near direct short to the supply voltage and maybe a fried GPS.

Perhaps you've already found that it does work as shown, in which case scenario #1 is most likely true. If it doesn't work, then beware of scenario #3 which could end up costing you some $$$ to fix.

Good luck in your efforts, I wish I could do the same but the DCT control needs to know the actual gear selection otherwise it would be constantly trying to downshift below third and never finding it.

Did you see that youtube video of the kid that throws down his brand new gixxer as he guns it out of the dealership? Rear wheel just spins out like the tire was made out of plastic! Then down she goes...

I saw a video of the VFR1200 being driven by a journalist at a japanese track way back at the initial release and he spun out the rear wheel...saved it, but still... I have a feeling 'if you don't know what your doing' the torque at the rear wheel will bite you in 1st or 2nd gear in this new VFR1200, so Honda played it safe. That's all they needed, all kinds of stories about it being a 'dangerous' bike. I think that is why is has been restricted...poor man's traction control.

Brian

I have also heard that the new 2012 bikes with TC also keep this restriction!

gbh

DDO-VFR

'vee1cut

First off...congrats to dutchgixxer for being what appears, on the verge of solving the lower gear power limitation. But would someone help me out here? I may have missed it but in all the reading of posts, I have not seen it addressed why the VFR1200 was detuned in the first place. Somewhere....in Japan...around some engineering table, the decision was made to do this. On a bike that is already at or beyond the maximum consumer price point, why did they elect for the added production costs of the sensors and what-not for this detuning? Was it to make the rear tire last longer? Was it to keep the front wheel on the ground? Was it to keep the rear passenger on the seat? Was it to prevent over-torqueing the shaft drive system? Somewhere out there is THE valid reason this was settled upon in that engineering room. I'm like everyone else in that there is a never ending desire for more power but before I snipped or jumpered anything on my brand new bike, I would have to understand what was on the minds of the people that built it that way. I understand rev limiters and I understand max speed cutouts designed in some bikes but this detuning in those lower gears is for some other reason. Please anyone/everyone give me your best guess as to what the reasoning might be. Thanks in advance.

'Solomoto

'Dutchgixxer

I have derestricted the 1st and 2nd gear power limitations. I have made a simple scematic :

[image: attachicon.gif]Gearposition_sensor_VFR1200f.jpg

[image: attachicon.gif]GPS_mod.jpg

You will get falsh readings on the dash when 1st or 2nd gear are engaged.

I am busy decoding the serial link between ECU and dash.

To be continued

While this looks feasible in some respects, I would caution that unless you know what the I/O interface properties are, you may be violating circuit constraints which would then risk a blown sensor or worse. I offer the following scenarios:

1. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted Low (or simply grounded) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired OR gate and will logically work.

2. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted High (or simply opened) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired AND gate and will NOT work as all 3 outputs must be asserted High simultaneously which will never happen.

3. Each output of the GPS is a CMOS type output that is asserted High (i.e. actively driven high) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a definite circuit rules violation as the output that is attempted to be driven high will be actively countered by the other two outputs which are actively driven Low, thus causing a near direct short to the supply voltage and maybe a fried GPS.

Perhaps you've already found that it does work as shown, in which case scenario #1 is most likely true. If it doesn't work, then beware of scenario #3 which could end up costing you some $$$ to fix.

Good luck in your efforts, I wish I could do the same but the DCT control needs to know the actual gear selection otherwise it would be constantly trying to downshift below third and never finding it.

Did you see that youtube video of the kid that throws down his brand new gixxer as he guns it out of the dealership? Rear wheel just spins out like the tire was made out of plastic! Then down she goes...

I saw a video of the VFR1200 being driven by a journalist at a japanese track way back at the initial release and he spun out the rear wheel...saved it, but still... I have a feeling 'if you don't know what your doing' the torque at the rear wheel will bite you in 1st or 2nd gear in this new VFR1200, so Honda played it safe. That's all they needed, all kinds of stories about it being a 'dangerous' bike. I think that is why is has been restricted...poor man's traction control.

Brian

I have also heard that the new 2012 bikes with TC also keep this restriction!

Yes the 2013 is still restricted although I haven't measured it on a dyno yet. My 2013 felt like the real potential did not arrive in 1st or 2nd gear until well up into the RPM band. It felt like there was a hesitation in the 3 to 5 thousand RPM range. Installed the Z Bomb and everything changed in 1st gear. Suddenly the bike was trying to lift the front wheel in 1st which the traction control immediately kicked in and shut down the fun (TC light comes on and bring the front back down, feels like hitting the rev limiter). Turn the TC off with the ZBomb installed and the bike will now do nice but not dangerous power wheelys in 1st gear. This is with a compleatly stock bike except for the Z Bomb. I will have the bike on a dyno sometime in November after making all the changes I have planned. I want to quantify on a Dynojet how much difference the Z Bomb de-restriction makes on my 2013.

Resurrecting this thread as someone may know the answer to a question I have.

Apart from the power restriction we know about, how else does the gear position affect the behaviour of the ECU? What would be the effect of modifying the wiring so that the ECU thought it was in e.g. 4th, all the time (apart from when in neutral of course)?

Since we now know that some bikes have restrictions in 1, 2, 3 and 6, forcing the ECU to think it was always in fourth would prevent any restriction, but what other effect would that have?

I've not been able to think of any other reason for the ECU to know what gear it is in. Anyone any ideas about this?

Please ignore the fact that the gear position indicator would be useless as that's not relevant to what I'm trying to do. I just want to know if there would be any detrimental effect on how the ECU ran the engine.

I found the reason Honda limits first gear power:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sportrider.com%2Fbikes%2F2010-honda-vfr1200f-dct-change-we-can-believe&ei=Ju3LVOjhLIalyQTvlICwBg&usg=AFQjCNE8nwOAdhNGDTvgwz6RPKJsH-LZ0g&sig2=MAiGJSI-QnA8c1Gol1j25Q

"The differences between the standard transmission and the DCT model are even more pronounced when pushing the limits of what the bike is meant for. Because the "dual" in dual clutch transmission is really two halves of a single clutch (which is explained further in the accompanying sidebar), their overall strength is reduced. In order to quell the 142 horsepower and 81.4 ft-lb of torque during hard launches, the ECU will pull back power so as to not destroy the clutch. Full power is then restored once road and engine speed are deemed to be at a level the clutch can handle."

So it sounds like a bad idea to remove this restriction.

Oh,oh.Honda designed a clutch system,on the edge of destruction with added power.Highly unlikely. If you added nitrous or launched your dct hard continuously, i could see quicker clutch wear. Reflash,pipe,K/N filter, decat exaust. I'm not considered.I don't abuse my bike and maintain it to a T. I'm not drag racing,so that I'm sure the clutch will hold up to the added power from my DCT. The extra power adds to the fun factor,.The extra 15-20 hp won't damage the bike,in my opinion. Time will tell.

The SportRider journalists are totally wrong.

The torque that the clutch has to manage is the same in 1st gear as in 6th gear, because the clutch is "before" the gear box.

Its not the same. As the engine will rev up more freely in the lower gears than the taller gears. That is why a worn clutch is so noticeable in 6th gear. It takes much more torque to accelerate the bike in taller gears than shorter gears. i.e. more torque, more of a load.

Then, why to limit the first 2 gears?

The reason is another (I don't know it, Honda does), not the torque limit of Dual Clutch.

ilprofessore

Then, why to limit the first 2 gears?

The reason is another (I don't know it, Honda does), not the torque limit of Dual Clutch.

Was explained by honda germany few times. In a few words - driveshaft, torque, safety and lack of TC.

Why so drastic meassures? Hell I dunno.

Honda has made a bad job with the limitation in 1st & 2nd gears.

The reasons could be acceptable, but the result is even more dangerous than the non-limited bike.

1) Driveshaft

At 6000 rpm the torque come back suddenly and above this rpm there is the maximum torque value

It means that driveshaft has no advantage by the limitation

2) Torque

Power delivery of VFR engine is very smooth when not limited, there is not a torque peak somewhere.

3) Safety

See point 1. When the engine come back to full power at 6000 rpm, it is like the old vtec with double the horsepower.

4) Lack of TC

Even the 2012 model has the limitation.

I'm using the Z-bomb during the last 60k km and the bike is a lot safer (and usable) than before.

We all know that but Honda see the thing"s different. I just did my ECU reflash so I'm not staying in this "Honda dream" anymore as well.

I'm not a mechanic. So if I want to this, how can it be accomplished by someone who is all thumbs? Also, it's probably posted here, but I can't find it, how much hp increase is there?

Just a thought and ignoring the loss of gear position indication, what if you simply tell the bike it's in just one gear the whole time, like 3rd, or 4th or even top? How would the bike run? Anyone tried that?

bazzaz z bomb or reflash

/thread

tried Zbomb, now have been flashed. Zbomb is not compairible to a flash! flash does more then just fooling the bike his gear positionning. it removes the electronic gas deley, ir gives better fuel map(as you got with pcv) and also adjusts ignition.  dont do it for gain ni hp but to get a smooth V4 bike!

I asked the mechanic at the Honda dealer and he said they will not do the reflash. In fact, he seemed insulted that I would ask like I was spitting on a De Vinci painting.  I wonder if it is possible to find a mechanic (None-Honda) that would do this kind of work.

They do the software update which is a form of flashing as well. Don`t talk to them - take out your ECU and ship it to Guhl.

They do the software update which is a form of flashing as well. Don`t talk to them - take out your ECU and ship it to Guhl.

Where you and Bassie separated at birth and found out that you are brothers here on VFRD ???  :unsure:

I mean we've had plenty of postings saying that "Guhl is God" already and there is one faith but Guhl  :goofy:

CandyRed always has good input.

ROLL ON VFRD !!!!

I been following this tread on and off for quite a while, and, it's been almost five years, seems like it just started, do any body here really have the skill needed to ride this bike? I'm not a professional rider, but, have enough experience to learn a new bike, if you learn how to keep it in the right gear at the right rpm soon you forget about Don Ghul. And by the way, I only use manual mode, and ride hard.

i bought a V4 because of the mid range power that it produces......i don't want to drive through downtown at 7000rpm in first gear.....the reflash made the VFR feel like a 1200cc V4....fyi...i'm 55 years old, have been riding since i was 9 years old

i ride in the NYC area, and found the power lag in first and second gear down right dangerous

VICARA

I been following this tread on and off for quite a while, and, it's been almost five years, seems like it just started, do any body here really have the skill needed to ride this bike? I'm not a professional rider, but, have enough experience to learn a new bike, if you learn how to keep it in the right gear at the right rpm soon you forget about Don Ghul. And by the way, I only use manual mode, and ride hard.

Because a rider like hondavfr1200dct, going to the track twice a year, to become a better rider, should focus his attention switching gears at the non-opportune time on the track, while piloting a heavy sport touring orientated motorcycle, as a work around to some stupid factory limitation equals skill in your book? Most any other bike doesn't have this limitation. The bike should change to the way he rides, like most any other sport natured bike around, not the other way around. An interrupt in the rpm band isn't something that is ideal and why many of us have removed it. It certain scenarios where you need throttle on the road it could be a dangerous limitation also.

It takes "skill" to figure out what he did, that the bike has some nanny state neutering in place, a limitation. And to add insult to injury, to your insult of other owners, his "skill" was being worked on, in a controlled environment, and the safest place to actually do it. It takes "skill" to realize limitations and to identify things that shouldn't exist as a hindrance.

Before questioning others skill level, maybe stick to your own.

Hondavfr1200dct, You have nothing to worry about with warranty problems from Honda with a Guhl ECU re-flash. The only way anyone at a US Honda dealership is going to know anything was done to the ECU is if they see the sticker Don Guhl puts on the ECU or you tell them it was modified. Take the sticker off if the bike is still in warranty. No US dealer has the tools or ability to look at the ECU software code inside you're ECU. The only information the dealer can get off the ECU is alarm codes which pertain to failures of external sensors connected to the ECU. As far as I know all the DCT owners who have had the Guhl re-flash have been very pleased with the results. The list you asked for would start with

1. the Guhl re-flash. When the re-flash is done you have a choice of options from Guhl (eliminate the software based power limitations in all gears, eliminate the 155 mph top speed limiter, raise the rev limiter to a higher RPM, install a new fuel map for either the stock muffler or a selection of other aftermarket slip on mufflers, lower the coolant temperature the radiator fans comes on at, eliminate the software alarm code if you plan on changing the pipe and removing the secondary muffler flapper actuator). The Guhl re-flash price is the same whether you choose one or all of the options. In regard to the fuel map if you are going to leave the exhaust stock then request a map for the stock exhaust. If you choose later to change the pipe to an aftermarket one you can send the ECU back to Guhl and he will re-flash you're ECU for the new exhaust. There is no charge for software updates except for the shipping charges. Communication by phone directly with Don Guhl about the available ECU options and what you have done to the bike or plan on doing is the best way to get a good result. Call Don do not e-mail him. He does not respond to e-mails in my experience.

2. replace the stock muffler. You can find pictures and owner feedback on most of the available choices on this site. You will gain about 5 HP from the pipe change and more if the ECU has been re-flashed by Guhl or you install a fuel controller like a DJ Power Commander with a optimized fuel map.

3. Replace the stock air filter with a K&N or modify your stock filter by removing the metal sneeze screen from the filter which restricts airflow.

4. Remove the cat converter from the stock exhaust and replace it with a 2 into 1 collector. This is the most labor intensive option mentioned here but it is effective at increasing HP, especially if you have replaced the restrictive stock muffler.

Done properly the above 4 suggestions will give you around 165 HP and 95 ft.pounds of TQ at the rear wheel.

Hondavfr1200dct

Dear Fellow Enthusiasts; I ran my 2010 DCT at Road Atlanta this past weekend, and up to that point had never really thought about the bog out of 2nd gear.

I discovered the second gear bogging very soon after buying the bike this year. I've heard some say they haven't experienced it, but I certainly did.

So I got the Guhl flash at the end of July, and I can tell you that it completely cured that problem. The engine's natural torque is restored, and the bike will now drive out of 2nd gear even at very low rpm with no complaints. The power in the lower gears is significantly increased yet still linear and controllable.

In addition to the standard ECU programming,

I requested a fuel map for a DAM Exhaust and Cat Converter Removed;

Error code for stock exhaust servo motor removed;

Fan temperature reduced (which has worked out well)

I did not raise the rev limiter, as I saw that as a risk with very little or no benefit.

Being a perfectionist I also upgraded the rear and front suspension to dial in the proper settings (Ohlins rear; Traxxion AK-20 front).

I'm now really happy with my VFR1200. It's a great bike.

shit, that sounds like a really fun bike now!

Is the power restriction limited to the 2010 model? Would the 2012 have the same restriction?

Hi All;

I have a power commander 5, and Delkevic exhaust.  There are 2 toggle switches  by my left thumb. One of them causes the gear position sensor to read 3

in 1st through 3rd gear.  When it reads 3, there's a gigantic power improvement in 1st and 2nd gear.  The other switch cancels the top end restriction.  I've 

accelerated past 163mph and it was still climbing.  (I didn't care to go any faster).  The bike is a 2010 purchased used with these improvements included.

It was my understanding that the remapping of the computer limits was done through the power commander.  Am I Correct with that?

Hmm, my 2013 with 9.5 K on the clock is close to being run in, and, largely stock apart from a Givi and Heli bars.  So a couple of times I've noticed on giving it a fist full after just taking off, (no clutch slip) the front wheel accidently comes up a bit and the traction control light comes on, I will get around to turning TC off to see how it behaves... Hoops are stock Bridgies... not a fan, but loving the bike :-)

Just talked to Mr. Guhl, I didn't have him lower the fan temp and he seems to not understand why.  I'm wondering why this helps when it's such a well heat managed bike, doesn't it tax the alternator if you do a lot of commuting?

Scheibs, 5/10/2016 at 10:48 PM

Hi All;

I have a power commander 5, and Delkevic exhaust.  There are 2 toggle switches  by my left thumb. One of them causes the gear position sensor to read 3

in 1st through 3rd gear.  When it reads 3, there's a gigantic power improvement in 1st and 2nd gear.  The other switch cancels the top end restriction.  I've 

accelerated past 163mph and it was still climbing.  (I didn't care to go any faster).  The bike is a 2010 purchased used with these improvements included.

It was my understanding that the remapping of the computer limits was done through the power commander.  Am I Correct with that?

No, the Power commander only does fuel mapping. It will not remove restrictions. Sounds like the previous owner hacked up the Gear Position Sensor.

3 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46

Modern motorcycles do not have alternators, they have stator and Regulator/rectifiers. The stator is always putting out 100% and the RR simply shorts what ever current is left over to ground. Having a fan running while stuck in traffic will not effect the stator and it will actually help the RR as the RR will have less current to convert into heat, provided that you aren't sitting at idle, with the high beams, brake light, hazzards and fan running for an hour, you will be fine. It is always a good idea to to install a voltmeter, to keep an eye on things. As far as the factory heat management, its not going to do anything at low speeds, thats the fans job, the only problem is the fans factory setting is around 225F which is way too hot. Around 190F is more optimal.

The VFR1200 has an "alternator"...stator is a part of alternator.

48 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46

 No, it has a regulator rectifier and a stator.

No,it has alternator. Stator is a part of alternator. Alternator does not require rectifier to work, either regulator. It has to have some "load".

Electrical engineer tip:

Stator is a part of many electrical machines/devices.

No,once again. An electrical engineer tip. I'm not getting confused - I'm perfectly fine.

VFR1200 has an alternator. Stator is a part of alternator. Stator is a part of many electrical devices like some motors, generators(alternator is one of them) etc.

Alternator is a type of generator: AC type generator. Typical alternator is build from: stator, flywheel(with magnets) and winding. 

R/R is not a part of alternator, it''s a part of charging system in vehicle. Some alternators have build-in R/R's.

You are mixing terms and theories - said electrical engineer.

I know what I have in my motorcycle...(VFR1200)which you don't have.

You posted: Modern motorcycles do not have alternators, they have stator and Regulator/rectifiers

Not sure what do you have there but I have "alternator" in MY VFR1200...oh wait, I know what do you have in your VFR800 - alternator as well.

End of conversation for me.

1 hour ago, veeefour

I know what I have in my motorcycle...(VFR1200)which you don't have.

You posted: Modern motorcycles do not have alternators, they have stator and Regulator/rectifiers

Not sure what do you have there but I have "alternator" in MY VFR1200...oh wait, I know what do you have in your VFR800 - alternator as well.

End of conversation for me.

Simple solution to this , please provide photo proof of said "alternator " that is different from what Candy posted , please......

For god's sake I should have just said "charging system"

Changing the subject...

Does disabling the exhaust servo smooth out the power at all?

9 hours ago, CandyRedRC46

No, the Power commander only does fuel mapping. It will not remove restrictions. Sounds like the previous owner hacked up the Gear Position Sensor.

Modern motorcycles do not have alternators, they have stator and Regulator/rectifiers. The stator is always putting out 100% and the RR simply shorts what ever current is left over to ground. Having a fan running while stuck in traffic will not effect the stator and it will actually help the RR as the RR will have less current to convert into heat, provided that you aren't sitting at idle, with the high beams, brake light, hazzards and fan running for an hour, you will be fine. It is always a good idea to to install a voltmeter, to keep an eye on things. As far as the factory heat management, its not going to do anything at low speeds, thats the fans job, the only problem is the fans factory setting is around 225F which is way too hot. Around 190F is more optimal.

What makes people think the factory fan setting is too high?  Honda have a long history of making reliable engines of this type so I am inclined to think they had a good reason(s) for choosing that temp.

The last time. You posted Modern motorcycles do not have alternators, they have stator and Regulator/rectifiers

I said this is not true - I'm not discussing anything else here. Not only modern motorcycles but almost all motorcycles

have alternators. If they are split in design(stator and rotor are mounted separately) it does not mean they aren't ALTERNATORS.

Please do not cause confusion...

I'm ELECTRICAL ENGINEER and I studied those things for years - I don't know how may times I need to repeat that? Motorcycles have

alternators. Stator is a part of an alternator - this is how it was from ten's of years. 

I will not be discussing this anymore - I don't care some claims themselves a PRO's - my Professors are rolling over in their graves reading this.

Below the page from OEM manual, made by ENGINEERS:

[image: alternator.jpg]

9 hours ago, swimmer

What makes people think the factory fan setting is too high?  Honda have a long history of making reliable engines of this type so I am inclined to think they had a good reason(s) for choosing that temp.

Its is pretty widely accepted that the optimal engine operating temperature for safely making maximum power is around 185-195.

The cooler that you make the the engine (to a certain point), the more aggressive you can tune the fuel and ignition maps, with out worrying about causing detonation.

A 225F engine will suffer preignition with less timing advance on the same octane fuel, than an engine operating at 190F.

The more timing advance that you can safely run (to a certain degree), the more power you can make.

There are down falls to lowering the engine operating temperatures though (which I am sure honda took into consideration).

An engine operating at a higher temperature will allow the fuel to vaporize and combust more readily (which is also why it detonates more easily too)

If the fuel burns more easily, you have cleaner emissions and better MPG, with a more mild tuning.

Also the oil temperature should be over 220F to ensure that all condensation is burnt off.

So basically engine temperature is a compromise.

A 225F engine will need a more conservative tune and make less power, but it will be cleaner, more efficient and have longer oil life.

A 190F engine CAN be tuned more aggressively, to make more power, but it will have dirtier emissions and need more frequent oil changes.

1 hour ago, CandyRedRC46

Okay, so you are agreeing that the VFR1200 has a separate regulator/rectifier and stator, but you are just getting upset over nomenclature? For a while it sounded as though you were trying to say that the VFR1200 had an automotive style alternator where all the components are housed all in one single unit.

It would be a lot easier to understand what you were trying to say if you didn't get so upset and start throwing insults around, people would probably take you more seriously too, as instead of coming off as a "Pro Engineer" you come off as a five year old throwing a tantrum. But I do appreciate the lesson on the various components of an alternator. Thank you.

I wonder how much more you can twist this theory on your favor? Now you are saying that I can't explain myself or nobody can understand

what I was trying to say. Nomenclature? Sounded? Upset? Insults? Now this sounds like a class C horror movie scenario...stop it, instead just admit

that simply: you were wrong you are trying to create those cheap stories...trying to come away completely unscathed from this, eh?

Not working at all...

You mixed everything again:
I said it has split design stator/rotor. Not separate reg.rec/stator....are we speaking a different language? Or you will be trying to denigrate me further? 

Now twist it again...it just started to be funny....just a little bit. Common, I would like to hear the part 2. I like cheap movies.

3 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46

You keep saying you are done, but yet you keep going. lol

Just like you, I wont quit...

Maybe we can try something else. What you say? How about class c move script?

Candy: VFR1200 has no alternator

Veefour: Yes, it has.

Candy: Really?

Veefour: Yes, just build diffrently

Candy: Oh yes, you are correct. I didn't know. Thanks buddy

Veeefour: No probs mate

Maybe it works this way for you? Yes, no?

The thing is I changed my mind - because I can, and because "going all the day long" alone might be to much for you LOL.

Yes it's really funny like you are creating those theories. Some say "things" about you, that even if you are completely wrong

you will be twisting everything until others will give up - because admitting to be wrong was never "programmed" into your

vocabulary. I can see they were 100% correct about you. This is really not that much far from being a "troll" - not naming you here...

The thing is you claimed yourself as a PRO - which I dare to say is waaay too much said. However if you do say so stay on on

professional level and name things correctly. I'm not any "nazi" but you are just not telling the right thing - telling what's right

and what's not is the main reason we post on forums, right?

So shall we start over again?

Candy: I will never accept my faith as I person who ever said anything wrong. Arrrr arr!

Nazi veeefour: You know, I can goo all day long just like you.

I'm relaxed, trust me.

You know: "Nazi" was a joke referring to the term "grammar nazi" as you accused me of being a "guardian of definitions". Relax.

Now, how about your meds Jonathan -  maybe take "half "next time, should help ;)

Oh, now you are after my language again....just like the last time. Some say that this is the far end of a proper argumentation.

Well, you are there - not me.

My apologies to those looking for information in this thread

[image: yYXwjXEczB-4.png]

I just want to quote the Sargeant from Stripes, my favoritest big toe and best buddy, and say "Lighten up Francis"'es...

11 hours ago, CandyRedRC46

Its is pretty widely accepted that the optimal engine operating temperature for safely making maximum power is around 185-195.

The cooler that you make the the engine (to a certain point), the more aggressive you can tune the fuel and ignition maps, with out worrying about causing detonation.

A 225F engine will suffer preignition with less timing advance on the same octane fuel, than an engine operating at 190F.

The more timing advance that you can safely run (to a certain degree), the more power you can make.

There are down falls to lowering the engine operating temperatures though (which I am sure honda took into consideration).

An engine operating at a higher temperature will allow the fuel to vaporize and combust more readily (which is also why it detonates more easily too)

If the fuel burns more easily, you have cleaner emissions and better MPG, with a more mild tuning.

Also the oil temperature should be over 220F to ensure that all condensation is burnt off.

So basically engine temperature is a compromise.

A 225F engine will need a more conservative tune and make less power, but it will be cleaner, more efficient and have longer oil life.

A 190F engine CAN be tuned more aggressively, to make more power, but it will have dirtier emissions and need more frequent oil changes.

It was my intention to also not have the fan temp setting changed.  I guess Don will second guess me as well.  I ride much of the year in hot temps, prefer not to have the fan constantly running.

Not sure if I did the right thing or not leaving the fan temp stock.  All I know is I had a manually operated fan switch on my blackbird and destroyed my CHARGING SYSTEM :goofy:  at 13K.  Mostly because I forgot to turn it off a lot but still left a bad taste in my mouth. 

I had Ivan lower the fen temp in my ZX14, didn't seem to make a difference that thing was a furnace.  I thought I'd trust Honda and their settings on this bike. It's not like heat is an issue anyway.

23 hours ago, CandyRedRC46

For a while it sounded as though you were trying to say that the VFR1200 had an automotive style alternator where all the components are housed all in one single unit.

This wording really makes no sense and would otherwise introduce major confusion to someone seeing this for the first time and attempting to understand the theory of these systems.

For unresolved definitions we must submit to an authority.  

Merriam Webster's:

    alternator: a device that produces electricity (as in the engine of a vehicle) : a generator that produces    

     alternating current

     generator: something that produces something; especially : a machine that produces electricity

     stator:  a stationary part in a machine in or about which a rotor revolves

Reference.com: A motorcycle stator is the stationary part of the alternator. 

All indications from any authority or technical article that I am able to find, such as:

http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/technical-articles/motorcycle-stators

indicate that the system in the motorcycle that produces the electricity, is in fact an alternator.

Pretty cut and dry. Just a google away...?

:beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:

2 hours ago, CandyRedRC46

:beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:

Do I have a browser problem or are there are lot of posts that were there all of a sudden missing? Is this site going to crash again? Man I hope not!

I went back to analyze the criticism (directed at me?) of beating a dead horse. The entire context of the conversation seems to be wiped out.  So if someone did resolve this and I missed it, I apologize profusely. I do not want to be a "bad participant."

I deleted the rant. I don't want to clutter the thread.

I am thinking of having my VFR1200FD ECU flashed. I do not like the thought of sending to USA. A firm in Netherlands, Carmo BV offers flashes, not cheap but much easier to get the ECU to them. Does anyone have any knowledge of this firms work please?

A couple of years ago a member on the vfroc.nl forum had an awful experience with Carmo. This was shortly after the vfr1200 came onto the market. Bottom line they failed to do the work and returned the ECU with holes drilled in the casing (afaik)

Maybe they now, years later, are able to do a good job...

There is one in France Chateauroux. On the French forum they are very happy with his job.

https://www.dragbike.fr/tom-bike-reprogrammation-sur-mesure/

http://www.forumvfr1200.com/t833-VOS-RETOURS-SUITE-AU-DEBRIDAGE.htm

Hi,

if you are looking for an ECU update 1200F or 1200X i can help. I can tune. ore remove the restriction of the ECU without opening the ECU.

in the Netherlands area. 

regards,

Sabsteef

sabsteef22, 8/24/2019 at 11:35 AM

Hi,

if you are looking for an ECU update 1200F or 1200X i can help. I can tune. ore remove the restriction of the ECU without opening the ECU.

in the Netherlands area. 

regards,

Sabsteef

Has anyone on the forum used this guy?

I've seen some customers on his Facebook page but as I don't trust FB at all, I'd rather read rec's from members on here.

5 hours ago, Skids

Has anyone on the forum used this guy?

I've seen some customers on his Facebook page but as I don't trust FB at all, I'd rather read rec's from members on here.

He did my VFR1200F (2012). Steef knows what he's doing, saves your original firmware just in case. I had my 1st/2nd gear restrictions removed, as well as max speed and revs. Low speed handling is much smoother.
You could achieve roughly the same with a Z-Bomb and a PC-V, but that's much more expensive and you loose 1st/2nd gear indicator.

1 hour ago, heinrichnak

He did my VFR1200F (2012). Steef knows what he's doing, saves your original firmware just in case. I had my 1st/2nd gear restrictions removed, as well as max speed and revs. Low speed handling is much smoother.
You could achieve roughly the same with a Z-Bomb and a PC-V, but that's much more expensive and you loose 1st/2nd gear indicator.

Thanks.  :beer: