Back in August I had a little spill and ended up with a separated shoulder on both myself and my bike. After my shoulder healed, and all the pretty painted bits arrived, I proceeded to tear the bike down. While I had it that far down I determined that it would be good to check the valves.
Valve check took the better part of a month, between the numerous other things I had to do, and waiting for buckets I needed. I ended up having 3 Vtec valves that were just slightly out of spec, and I replace the buckets with the appropriate ones.
After putting it back together, it fired right up and ran great. A week later the weather cooperated enough for me to take it for a 60 mile or so test run. I got about 1/2 through when I realized I was hearing CCT noise again...bugger. I had replaced the front CCT already about a year ago, so I wasn't expecting any issues.
As the general consensus is that the noise is more of an annoyance than anything, I didn't worry too much, but simply brought it home. I rode it to work the following tuesday as the weather was again not terrible. On thursday I again rode to work, but this time before I got all the way there I heard a noise and the motor lost all power. I was able to coast into a parking lot, the motor was dead after I used the clutch.
I only tried once to restart it, and it ran but lacked power and sounded wheezy....not sure how to explain it.
I will be tearing it back down, but where I should start looking? Do I check the timing first? I don't want to turn it over on the risk of a jumped timing bending valves.
Assuming bad case scenario...how bad can it be? If it jumped time (identifiable by looking at timing marks) would I be better off finding a replacement motor? How hard are they to swap in?
Thanks for listening. Note to the Gear Driven crowd...I really don't need the comments about Cam Chains
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 05 February 2010 - 12:31 PM, said:
Back in August I had a little spill and ended up with a separated shoulder on both myself and my bike. After my shoulder healed, and all the pretty painted bits arrived, I proceeded to tear the bike down. While I had it that far down I determined that it would be good to check the valves.
Valve check took the better part of a month, between the numerous other things I had to do, and waiting for buckets I needed. I ended up having 3 Vtec valves that were just slightly out of spec, and I replace the buckets with the appropriate ones.
After putting it back together, it fired right up and ran great. A week later the weather cooperated enough for me to take it for a 60 mile or so test run. I got about 1/2 through when I realized I was hearing CCT noise again...bugger. I had replaced the front CCT already about a year ago, so I wasn't expecting any issues.
As the general consensus is that the noise is more of an annoyance than anything, I didn't worry too much, but simply brought it home. I rode it to work the following tuesday as the weather was again not terrible. On thursday I again rode to work, but this time before I got all the way there I heard a noise and the motor lost all power. I was able to coast into a parking lot, the motor was dead after I used the clutch.
I only tried once to restart it, and it ran but lacked power and sounded wheezy....not sure how to explain it.
I will be tearing it back down, but where I should start looking? Do I check the timing first? I don't want to turn it over on the risk of a jumped timing bending valves.
Assuming bad case scenario...how bad can it be? If it jumped time (identifiable by looking at timing marks) would I be better off finding a replacement motor? How hard are they to swap in?
Thanks for listening. Note to the Gear Driven crowd...I really don't need the comments about Cam Chains
Why do you think that the timing would have been altered if you only did a valve check?
Fuel starvation?
Broken or damaged HT wires?
Bad coil?
EFI module gone bad?
Valve(s) out of spec, or something keeping one of the valves from opening/closing properly?
I've generally found that a problem following a maintenance procedure is usually related one way or another. I'd start by checking everything that might have been disturbed while you were checking the valves. Not that I've been inside a VFR yet, but I don't think that the timing would be at fault from your description of what you did so far. ;)
If I may venture my uneducated opinion, have you considered the possibility that it may not be CCTs?
I mean folks have reported riding for quite some time before replacing them w/o obvious negative effects.
Is it even possible for the chain to skip a cog if the CCT isn't doing its job at all? IDK.
Well, if you do decide to get another motor, I have one for sale :ph34r:
But hopefully if wouldn't come to that.
Good luck and keep us posted.
I don't know much about the CCT on the VFR, but I used to be into Nissans real heavy a few years back. There was a common problem with the CCT on the DOHC motors, it would literally break off and rattle around in the head. It's possible that engine has gotten locked up from that scenario, although I'd think that it would snap the CC before locking up the motor. Either way, that's where I'd start. You would be looking at head damage, but could possibly find a replacement cheaper than a motor. Good luck with it, and keep us posted on what you find.
I really don't see how your engine stop could be related to CCT in any way? :unsure:
It something broke and locked the motor it would still be locked and unable to crank like it still does.
I wouldn't combine the symptoms, just focus on electrical/ECU issues to find the source of the power failure and worry about any rattle after you get it running again.
Check ECU codes! :fing02:
Since it was making noise that sounded like a CCT before it finally shut down without restarting, then yes, I would check timing. If you already tried once to turn it over at work like you stated, I wouldn't worry about turning it over by hand at home to check the timing. If any damage was going to be done, it is already done.
I've never heard of a CCT being bad enough to let the chain jump teeth, but it could throw the valve timing off just from the slack which may cause running issues. It may also allow the valves to hit the piston tops. Personally, I'd pull the valve covers and see if I can see anything (timing marks, bent valves, loose chain, etc).
If a CCT is loose and the chain jumps is can put a valve open directly into the piston, locking everything up, but that isn't your issue. Is it running smoothly with no power or sound like its missing a couple of cylinders? If you skipped timing a little it would just cause you to loose compression, which sounds more likely than anything. It's easy enough to pop the valve covers off and check to verify.
The motor never locked up...it just made a "clunk" or "clink" or "clank" sound (very light) and lost power. I immediate pulled the clutch in (going 55 at the time) and let the motor die (didn't want it cycling through revolutions if something was wrong) and coasted to a stop. I then tried to restart it, and it started, but it had a very hollow or wheezing sound...lost compression into the exhaust/intake is a possibility.
I am not worried about rotating it over to check timing by hand, but I don't want to crank it hoping it fixed itself.
Valve covers are not impossible to get to, I just hate having to take the body work off again...ah well, such is life. I will also look at the CCTs and see how they look.
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 05 February 2010 - 02:49 PM, said:
I may not have been clear enough...
The motor never locked up...it just made a "clunk" or "clink" or "clank" sound (very light) and lost power. I immediate pulled the clutch in (going 55 at the time) and let the motor die (didn't want it cycling through revolutions if something was wrong) and coasted to a stop. I then tried to restart it, and it started, but it had a very hollow or wheezing sound...lost compression into the exhaust/intake is a possibility.
I hate to offer up this possibility.....
I''m not thinking CCT.... I suspect poor re-assembly following valve adjusts.... leading to dropped valve and possibly holed piston.
[image: View Post]Lee 2002, on 05 February 2010 - 04:15 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 05 February 2010 - 02:49 PM, said:
I may not have been clear enough...
The motor never locked up...it just made a "clunk" or "clink" or "clank" sound (very light) and lost power. I immediate pulled the clutch in (going 55 at the time) and let the motor die (didn't want it cycling through revolutions if something was wrong) and coasted to a stop. I then tried to restart it, and it started, but it had a very hollow or wheezing sound...lost compression into the exhaust/intake is a possibility.
I hate to offer up this possibility.....
I''m not thinking CCT.... I suspect poor re-assembly following valve adjusts.... leading to dropped valve and possibly holed piston.
Hope I'm wrong.
Sounds like the same thing that happened to my 850 Norton,now that was a hole in the piston.
[image: View Post]Lee 2002, on 05 February 2010 - 03:15 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 05 February 2010 - 02:49 PM, said:
I may not have been clear enough...
The motor never locked up...it just made a "clunk" or "clink" or "clank" sound (very light) and lost power. I immediate pulled the clutch in (going 55 at the time) and let the motor die (didn't want it cycling through revolutions if something was wrong) and coasted to a stop. I then tried to restart it, and it started, but it had a very hollow or wheezing sound...lost compression into the exhaust/intake is a possibility.
I hate to offer up this possibility.....
I''m not thinking CCT.... I suspect poor re-assembly following valve adjusts.... leading to dropped valve and possibly holed piston.
Hope I'm wrong.
I have/had the same fear, although I tripled checked and torqued all bolts etc. The biggest thing that leads me to think CCT is the stethoscope I used was loudest when touching the front CCT prior to the failure, much more that when touching the valve cover.
Maybe I need to setup a pool so people can make their best guesses as to the problem...or maybe the Super Bowl is just rubbing off on me.
[image: View Post]Lee 2002, on 05 February 2010 - 04:15 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 05 February 2010 - 02:49 PM, said:
I may not have been clear enough...
The motor never locked up...it just made a "clunk" or "clink" or "clank" sound (very light) and lost power. I immediate pulled the clutch in (going 55 at the time) and let the motor die (didn't want it cycling through revolutions if something was wrong) and coasted to a stop. I then tried to restart it, and it started, but it had a very hollow or wheezing sound...lost compression into the exhaust/intake is a possibility.I hate to offer up this possibility.....
I''m not thinking CCT.... I suspect poor re-assembly following valve adjusts.... leading to dropped valve and possibly holed piston.
Hope I'm wrong.
[/quote]
A holed piston would have the motor spewing oily exhaust all over the place.
Lost compression, which you should be able to check by pulling a plug and sticking your finger over the hole (rough idea anyway), would more likely be one of the valves loose or, less likely, stuck after your adjustment. A dropped valve sounds like a bag of marbles inside the motor and is very messy.
Could someone enlighten me....does one have to remove the CC, or loosen the CCT, on VFRs to adjust the valves? I aint been inside mine yet.
Josh,
I am a big fan of leak down checks to help identify what's going on. A leak down will show whether or not you have a stuck or bent valve, which would be hard to identify just by removing the valve covers. If the engine sounded "wheezy" when you re-started it could very well be a stuck or bent valve blowing back through the intake. The valve could have stuck open just enough to lightly contact the top of the piston, causing the clinking sound. However, if the valve did touch, you should have heard more than one clink unless the engine died on the first piston stroke that touched the valve. Try the leak down and see what it tells you. Good luck.
[image: View Post]gswanson, on 05 February 2010 - 04:21 PM, said:
Josh,
I am a big fan of leak down checks to help identify what's going on. A leak down will show whether or not you have a stuck or bent valve, which would be hard to identify just by removing the valve covers. If the engine sounded "wheezy" when you re-started it could very well be a stuck or bent valve blowing back through the intake. The valve could have stuck open just enough to lightly contact the top of the piston, causing the clinking sound. However, if the valve did touch, you should have heard more than one clink unless the engine died on the first piston stroke that touched the valve. Try the leak down and see what it tells you. Good luck.
I haven't done a leakdown test in 15 years...is there a way to make one work with the deep well of the VFR head? Can I build one myself? I used the school one the last time I did it.
I figure the first check will be timing and CCT inspection, and then of course go on from what I find there.
The CCT doesn’t get removed during valve check, just backed off and locked into place so you can remove the cams.
The motor ran great, with good power, when I reassembled it. I never witnessed any smoke, but it wouldn’t have run long enough with a hole in the piston if that were to have happened to even get smoke in there. I imagine an inspection of my new plugs will also be in order.
[image: View Post]wera803, on 05 February 2010 - 01:35 PM, said:
I've never heard of a CCT being bad enough to let the chain jump teeth,
I spend 3 hours in the desert 60 miles north of Las Vegas waiting for a tow truck to come pick up me and my Busa cause the cam chain did exactly that. Siezed up the motor bent valves, the whole shebang. 800 miles from home as the crow flies. BTW [Nevada Suzuki - owner Tom Scales] is a life saver! Tom was able to secure factory warranty work even after my warranty had expired, got me a tow, even had his wife call the airlines and arranged for a flight home. A month later I was back in my bother in laws truck picking it up good as new $300 out of pocket for some extra work I had done. It was a horrible month cause I broke my collar bone in a bizzare slip at work and could not ride the bike home.
SO YES CAM CHAINS CAN JUMP THE GEAR
however it was the bottom gear off the crank, then it got pinned up against the block. I was deft enough to pull in the clutch and put the bike in nuetral as soon as I felt it bucking, a second later the motor siezed and I was rolling down the interstate at 60mph in nuetral all the way to a pull off.
Wonder if checking your oil might tell you anything. Maybe run a magnet through it looking for shavings? You had mentioned smoke coming out of the exhaust shortly after your rebuild. Did it go away or continue?
I know it's a bummer tearing it all apart again after you just finished it.
Not to add to horror stories of jumped chains, but my vfr has a new cam chain, cct, and guides because of a failed CCT. Don't remember what else was replaced, but i do know that the labor was insane... have the dealer receipt from P.O.
Like seb said, to bad neither one of us are close enough to truly rip into the motor with you. Still have my number? Feel free to call with questions. I'll try my best to help.
[image: View Post]dutchinterceptor, on 05 February 2010 - 08:48 PM, said:
Wonder if checking your oil might tell you anything. Maybe run a magnet through it looking for shavings? You had mentioned smoke coming out of the exhaust shortly after your rebuild. Did it go away or continue?
I know it's a bummer tearing it all apart again after you just finished it.
I had decided it was not smoke, but condensation etc from the weather being cold...it wasn't blue/oily for sure.
[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 05 February 2010 - 08:52 PM, said:
I wish I were closer so I could help you tear into it Joshua. :(
I do as well!
[image: View Post]kwr8728, on 05 February 2010 - 10:03 PM, said:
Not to add to horror stories of jumped chains, but my vfr has a new cam chain, cct, and guides because of a failed CCT. Don't remember what else was replaced, but i do know that the labor was insane... have the dealer receipt from P.O.
Like seb said, to bad neither one of us are close enough to truly rip into the motor with you. Still have my number? Feel free to call with questions. I'll try my best to help.
I should have your number some place, I may have questions!
I think it simply skipped a tooth and now the timing is off. Like it was said above you would be getting all kinds of other symptoms if there was actual damage. Get in there and set it right. Make sure you check or replace the CCT's so it doesn't happen again. All will be well. My the force be with you.
I don't have enough experience in this to be of much techincal help (although I believe I changed chain and tensioners on a 71 Toyota Hiace 3 times.. chain snapped and whipped straight through the casing as if it were butter... rattle rattle rattle...
[image: View Post]jasonsmith, on 06 February 2010 - 03:05 AM, said:
I think it simply skipped a tooth and now the timing is off. Like it was said above you would be getting all kinds of other symptoms if there was actual damage. Get in there and set it right. Make sure you check or replace the CCT's so it doesn't happen again. All will be well. My the force be with you.
I love your optimism....and I still hope for the best.
[image: View Post]Auspa�ol, on 06 February 2010 - 06:04 AM, said:
GOOD LUCK WITH THAT JOSH!!!
I don't have enough experience in this to be of much techincal help (although I believe I changed chain and tensioners on a 71 Toyota Hiace 3 times.. chain snapped and whipped straight through the casing as if it were butter... rattle rattle rattle...
So I can only really send you moral support!!!
YES YOU CAN!!
Thanks Brad...that's all I can ask until I at least get it apart and have technical questions!
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 05 February 2010 - 06:02 PM, said:
I haven't done a leakdown test in 15 years...is there a way to make one work with the deep well of the VFR head? Can I build one myself? I used the school one the last time I did it.
I have a good, but not great, single gauge leak down tester I bought at Steve's Wholesale Tool (local cheap tool outlet) for about $35. The hardest part of using it, to me, is getting the spark plugs out first. You can hand tighten the tester fitting enough that it won't leak. You are not looking for absolute numbers anyway, just comparing between cylinders. If work wasn't consuming my weekends these days, I would road trip down to give you a hand.
Well, since we just got a foot of snow, I decided now would be the best time to work in my unheated garage....so I removed the new body panels and stored them in the attic. I then removed the airbox and the right radiator. Next I removed the front valve cover....I could have sworn there was a cam chain on there last time I looked....
Looking deeper I noticed one of the two bolts on the intake cam gear was missing, and the other was very very loose. Peaking into the head (no easy feat with the front fairing still on)I spotted the missing bolt. I was able to fish it out with a telescoping magnetic pickup. threads were mangled on one side...hard to tell exactly why. I then could see and get to the cam chain, but it was fairly stuck. I took a 6P nail, bent it into an L, and attaching it to a fiberglass marker pole...with this I was able to reach the chain and fish it up...it came up far enough that I could get my fingers on it, then it came the rest of the way out....that isn't supposed to happen.
It appears the noise I was hearing was the cam gear moving around a bit, and then the final noise I heard was the bolt coming out and the chain rolling off the side of the gear. The crank made short work of the chain and it was soon broken. I can tell that at least a couple of little link plates are down inside the motor...no way to know how many until I determine if any of the chain is missing.
I don't know yet if the valves were damaged...I did restart it once which didn't help the chain any...note sure how to know if the valves are up or down....the intake cam gear is lined up with the "FI" mark exactly parallel with the head, closest to the exhaust gear. The exhaust gear has the "RE" mark just a little way above parallel and pointing backwars, fairly close to the intake gear.
Anyone good with the marks? RE is slightly below the parallel line (not above as I was recalling). Assuming the cams stopped turning when the chain comes off (fairly good assumption)...whats open and shut?
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 14 March 2010 - 09:02 PM, said:
Today in the ongoing saga of: "Tightwad's foray into engine repair"....
Yeah, starting to sound a bit like a soap opera or 1/2 hour TV sitcom (depends on the day)...Thanks to Lee for taking the measurements needed..confirmed that I WAS indeed over reacting. After this heartwarming confirmation, I went to the garage to start it again, and to continue to burp the cooling system and generally listen to that V4 sound that I have been missing...only it wouldn't start! The blinking light on the gas gauge reminded me that I only put in the limited amount of fuel I had for the lawn mower...I was out! So until next time....
Oh Jeezzzz. Don't ya hate that?? Josh, are you doing this on purpose or something?? What about an exorcism?? Car fuel no good to you?? When you finally get de-voodooed you�ll know more about the VFR than most Honda techs...
After how many weeks of going round and round, I saw a light at the end of the tunnel. Be it Train or actual solution is yet to be determined�
After confirming that the heat was a null issue, and again fired it up and checked out the cooling system. Once I was sure it was full etc, I ran it for a bit on the center stand, in gear, so I could engage Vtec and make sure any oil/crud waiting on those Vtec valves would be cleared out. I did neglect to realize it was very late at night�the neighbor lady came over and asked me for the love of all that was holy to shut it down�in my defense it was only 10:15, and her nephew has a ford falcon with no mufflers that wakes everyone up�but I am respectful and apologized (I did feel bad) and shut it down. The next day (during the day) I fired it up again. The only �not right� feeling bit is that while cold it stumbles and hangs around the 9K mark. This gradually goes away as the engine temp rises.
I took it for a ride (amazing I know!) around the block (1 mile or so) and found that it ran pretty good, but stumbled at higher RPM�it still wasn�t up to Vtec temp even, so I wasn�t pushing too hard. Once I got it back in the garage I found it would wrap out to redline (no bouncing off the limiter, I am not THAT big of an idiot). I haven�t ridden it at temp yet, so I can�t say if the stumbling goes away.
Oil has been changed, Antifreeze is topped up, and I am ready for a bit longer test ride. I won�t be dressing her until I KNOW I am not going to have to take it all back off again�that would be annoying.
This is what I hate about engines. You're end up being either one of two kinds of people:
The kind who can tear an engine down in your sleep, you have all the tools handy, nothing scares you, and you know how to do it on the cheap.
The kind who sees any kind of engine tear-down event as making the bike never run the same again.
For folks like me (option #2), my VFR is my only bike and my only means of transport for work. The idea of it being off the road AT ALL fills me with dread. I'm about to have my injectors cleaned: I have researched the heck out of it and pre-ordered the parts. But all I can foresee is something plastic snapping when I do the job, and my bike being off the road. It scares the willies out of me.
Nothing scares me about mechanics, which is a bad thing because I am not factory trained or anything...just a good solid base from taking community college Automotive repair classes, 7 years working in Aftermarket Auto Parts sales, and a love of internal combustion toys...
Since they all run on the same principles, it boils down to understanding what can make it act the way it does, then attacking the problem.
For my current issue, where it doesn't want to rev about 9K until it warms up, the magical temp appears to be about 150. This makes me think it could be a starter valve/wax unit issue. I did slightly bend the rod in the middle of the throttle bodies when reinstalling an emissions hose, but I thought I had bent it back to how it was.
I took the bike for a ride last night, about 4 miles, just to shake it out. Once it warmed up it pulled like normal...I went WOT from a rolling start in first and at about 8K the front end did the little "I want to wheelie but I weigh too much" dance.
I did notice I am getting CCT (apparantly) noise, but very muted. I probed around with my stethescope, and found the noise was loudest on the brass valve on the Throttle Body...the one with the air hose located near the front Tensioner. I am going to try a new Tensioner (I have one on hand) and see if the sound changes. If it does I am going to remove it and try tightening the spring on an old one I have 1 turn to see if it goes away...then two turns if it doesn't. Should be an interesting test...all in the name of Science :fing02:
[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 20 March 2010 - 04:16 AM, said:
I probed around with my stethescope, and found the noise was loudest on the brass valve on the Throttle Body...the one with the air hose located near the front Tensioner. I am going to try a new Tensioner (I have one on hand) and see if the sound changes. If it does I am going to remove it and try tightening the spring on an old one I have 1 turn to see if it goes away...then two turns if it doesn't. Should be an interesting test...all in the name of Science :fing02:
Isn't that the fuel pressure regulator? The clicking noise from there would be the injectors if that's the case.
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/uploads/1194812713/gallery_380_3458_1362917.jpg Is this it?
You mean the big brass thing with the vacuum hose coming out of it, right?
End of thread · 38 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 10 Apr 2010