I've now had the DCT for a couple weeks now and managed to log close 1500 miles thus far. The DCT aspect is all that I expected and more, but I now have a serious beef with the VFR that has nothing to do with DCT, it's common to both versions.
The problem is that nasty flat spot in 2nd gear. Apparently the sw flattens the power in the first 2 gears for whatever reason. I can understand softening the response in 1st to prevent undue wheel spin in low gear, but in 2nd this actually becomes a safety liability. On several occasions I pulled out to pass a car in 2nd gear, open the throttle and ....nothing happens! The tach ever so slowly crawls up to 5500 rpm then the big hit happens. NOT GOOD. This leaves you hanging in the breeze in a very vulnerable position. Not only is there a possibility of on coming traffic coming at you which previously was at a safe distance away, there may also be someone behind you expecting you to accelerate appropriately and rear ends you (not a smart move by anyone following to pass on the same maneuver).
In my mind this can cause a serious if not fatal accident. There are any number of scenarios which would require an immediate response of power to escape a hazardous situation. When sport riding, this flat spot is more of an inconvenience when driving out of a 2nd gear corner and I've experienced this numerous times, but the real danger comes when the power isn't there when you need it or expect it for safety reasons.
I hope the folks at Honda who monitor these forums get the message and convince the powers that be to develop a sw fix for this serious problem. If anyone has experienced this problem, please chime in. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but the choir needs to sing in harmony to make the music, Let's make sure Honda hears the choir.
Thanks for the heads up, solomoto. This is not good. I have never heard any
Japanese manufacturer provides software upgrade. BMW seems to be
the only one that does it. Even if Honda took notes and are willing
to investigate, it'll probably take months, if not years, to see a software upgrade to
existing bikes...
[image: View Post]testrider, on 05 July 2010 - 07:36 PM, said:
Thanks for the heads up, solomoto. This is not good. I have never heard any
Japanese manufacturer provides software upgrade. BMW seems to be
the only one that does it.
I believe that Aprilia, Ducati and Triumph will all 'flash' the ECU with upgraded maps too, espeicalyl if you buy performance parts for them.
For the life of me I don't understand the problem you are having with your bike. I have a manual tranny VFR1200F and the bike pulls rather steadily at a brisk pace under 4k and then insanely fast after 5500. I don't find it to be dangerous at all. Maybe you should bring your bike in and have it looked at. There is no way the bike should be slow by any means especially if it can do 60mph in 2.6 seconds. I admit it's not the arm wrenching torque of my gen 2 vmax but it should not be slow by any means and I'm no lightweight I probably dress out close to 280lbs suited.
[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 04 July 2010 - 11:20 PM, said:
I've now had the DCT for a couple weeks now and managed to log close 1500 miles thus far. The DCT aspect is all that I expected and more, but I now have a serious beef with the VFR that has nothing to do with DCT, it's common to both versions.
The problem is that nasty flat spot in 2nd gear. Apparently the sw flattens the power in the first 2 gears for whatever reason. I can understand softening the response in 1st to prevent undue wheel spin in low gear, but in 2nd this actually becomes a safety liability. On several occasions I pulled out to pass a car in 2nd gear, open the throttle and ....nothing happens! The tach ever so slowly crawls up to 5500 rpm then the big hit happens. NOT GOOD. This leaves you hanging in the breeze in a very vulnerable position. Not only is there a possibility of on coming traffic coming at you which previously was at a safe distance away, there may also be someone behind you expecting you to accelerate appropriately and rear ends you (not a smart move by anyone following to pass on the same maneuver).
In my mind this can cause a serious if not fatal accident. There are any number of scenarios which would require an immediate response of power to escape a hazardous situation. When sport riding, this flat spot is more of an inconvenience when driving out of a 2nd gear corner and I've experienced this numerous times, but the real danger comes when the power isn't there when you need it or expect it for safety reasons.
I hope the folks at Honda who monitor these forums get the message and convince the powers that be to develop a sw fix for this serious problem. If anyone has experienced this problem, please chime in. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but the choir needs to sing in harmony to make the music, Let's make sure Honda hears the choir.
I have the same bike and it ain't anything but slow. Twist the throttle and it goes D, S or M. Hell in D I can pass like a breeze. The only liability I see is the bike being a ticket magnet cause it just plain flies.
Get a tank- or helmet-mounted camera and record the actual lag. I remember when the R1(?) had similar problems a few years ago, it took people actually getting recordings of the issue to prove that it was really happening. Without that, you're just one person complaining about a problem that no one else seems to have. Good luck getting some attention for it, I hope Honda is able to do something for it!
[image: View Post]testrider, on 04 July 2010 - 11:36 PM, said:
Thanks for the heads up, solomoto. This is not good. I have never heard any
Japanese manufacturer provides software upgrade. BMW seems to be
the only one that does it. Even if Honda took notes and are willing
to investigate, it'll probably take months, if not years, to see a software upgrade to
existing bikes...
Hi Mike,
Yes, BMW has issued not so much upgrades but rather bug fixes. A recent example is the K1300S stalling problem; only after constant and loud complaining by owners did BMW finally acknowledge the problem and develop a fix. I hope we can get Honda's attention without such tactics. Maybe the recent recall for the metal swarf inspection is a sign Honda is willing to respond quickly to address such concerns. Let's hope so. It's the only notable flaw in an otherwise fantastic machine and one that can be addressed with minimal disruption to the owner.
BTW, I heard from Neal at Hollister Honda that you dropped in. I was in Saturday AM to sell my Griso to another HH customer.
[image: View Post]dozerdogue, on 05 July 2010 - 12:47 AM, said:
For the life of me I don't understand the problem you are having with your bike. I have a manual tranny VFR1200F and the bike pulls rather steadily at a brisk pace under 4k and then insanely fast after 5500. I don't find it to be dangerous at all. Maybe you should bring your bike in and have it looked at. There is no way the bike should be slow by any means especially if it can do 60mph in 2.6 seconds. I admit it's not the arm wrenching torque of my gen 2 vmax but it should not be slow by any means and I'm no lightweight I probably dress out close to 280lbs suited.
Apparently I'm not alone in my assessment. I just read the latest issue of Cycle World in which they compare the VFR to the Duc MS1200. They mentioned that in 2nd gear there is a 25 HP deficit compared to 4th gear from 4k to 6k rpm! So clearly the sw is crippling the response according to the gear. On your bike, try the following: put the bike in second gear an maintain a steady speed of say 30mph. Then quickly roll on the throttle as though you're doing a pass and see if you notice the lag.
I'll go to the dealer and ride their demo bike to compare the response in similar scenarios. If consistent, then I'll know it's not limited to mine and is a sw issue. The CW report is a good indication that it is.
[image: View Post]Monk, on 05 July 2010 - 09:36 AM, said:
Was just thinking..... What's the possiblty that just some of the bikes have a faulty software chip(or what ever), and can have it swapped out.......
The probability of that is near zero. The control systems are entirely digital (except for the sensors) which means they can be tested with scripts and test vectors to screen out any defective components or sub systems during the manufacturing process. I'm guessing the sw crippling is due to noise regulations, but then I thought that is what the exhaust flapper was for.
Sure there's a bit of a flat spot but to say it's a danger is a huge exaggeration. this bike is not a hot rod but if you want real power it's there for the taking. You just have to operate it in the power band, just like the 800. Keep it over 5k rpm if you want response, just like the 800.
It's hard to imagine a sane situation where the 2nd gear sub 5k acceleration would cause a danger.
Then quickly roll on the throttle as though you're doing a pass and see if you notice the lag.
)))))))))))
Maybe the fly by wireless stuff, aint so FLY
But there are problems like this dating back to the late 80's with Toyaota automatics, cetain condition the tranny even under full throttle completely stopped is stuck in second gear and will not down shift.
Basically same type of deal. And who ever said its like the 800 , the 800 will pull below 5000 rpm , that r1 was simply not working right, it should have pulled.
[image: View Post]Tamworth, on 05 July 2010 - 03:11 PM, said:
Sure there's a bit of a flat spot but to say it's a danger is a huge exaggeration. this bike is not a hot rod but if you want real power it's there for the taking. You just have to operate it in the power band, just like the 800. Keep it over 5k rpm if you want response, just like the 800.
It's hard to imagine a sane situation where the 2nd gear sub 5k acceleration would cause a danger.
Did you see the R1 videos, if its anything like that, yes its a danger. like having a 1500 cc car trying to cross an intersection with the air conditioner on.
[image: View Post]spud786, on 05 July 2010 - 06:44 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Tamworth, on 05 July 2010 - 03:11 PM, said:
Sure there's a bit of a flat spot but to say it's a danger is a huge exaggeration. this bike is not a hot rod but if you want real power it's there for the taking. You just have to operate it in the power band, just like the 800. Keep it over 5k rpm if you want response, just like the 800.
It's hard to imagine a sane situation where the 2nd gear sub 5k acceleration would cause a danger.
Did you see the R1 videos, if its anything like that, yes its a danger. like having a 1500 cc car trying to cross an intersection with the air conditioner on.
A video is as meaningless as a comment from someone who isn't riding a 12.
It sounds like the 1200 rider who started the threat is experiencing the same thing. He is in a gear that should pull at that rpm and speed and it doesnt .
It sits there and hesitates , that is the 1200 riders complaint
[image: View Post]spud786, on 05 July 2010 - 07:10 PM, said:
It sounds like the 1200 rider who started the threat is experiencing the same thing. He is in a gear that should pull at that rpm and speed and it doesnt .
It sits there and hesitates , that is the 1200 riders complaint
Well I can tell you from experience it does not "sit there" and that the original poster is exaggerating the issue greatly.
Just got back from a run on my DCT and ran through the paces in manual mode. While I did notice that the acceleration in 2nd seemed a bit muted from 3-5k compared to 1st and 3rd, it still pulled enough that I probably wouldn't have noticed had you not posted. I'll be following this in the forums and will snag the latest Cycle mag as well.
I also downloaded a bunch of dyno charts for the 1200 from a google search. One from motorcycle.com shows a definite torque dip to 52 ft-lb @ 3100 rpm, climbing to 70 ft-lb @ 3900 rpm; maxes at 82 ft-lb @ 8700 with another dip to 69 ft-lb @ 5200 rpm. The steepest parts of the curve are from 3300-3900 rpm and 5300-5900 rpm. According to that, you should feel the power comin' on (rather than stagnating) in the same range you've noticed the problem. Keep us updated.
[image: View Post]Tamworth, on 05 July 2010 - 05:13 PM, said:
[image: View Post]huskysooner, on 05 July 2010 - 07:52 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Tamworth, on 05 July 2010 - 06:28 PM, said:
Well I can tell you from experience it does not "sit there" and that the original poster is exaggerating the issue greatly.
Well, that's smashing that the OP let you ride his particular unit and diagnose the situation! Problem solved!
:dry:
Well he's making it out like it's some big serious safety issue with the whole line which couldn't be further from the truth.
Excuse me sir but unless you've been in my "seat" don't assume you know what I'm experiencing is mere "exaggeration". Running my bike is S mode means the auto is choosing the optimal gear for the speed, and I can tell you when running at a sporting pace thru the technical twisties and coming out of a second gear turn, the engine just falls flat on it's face until 5500 rpm, then a big hit kicks in. The exact same thing happens when I'm pacing at 35mph, then roll on in 2nd to make a pass. Unless you've pulled out and suddenly realize you're facing on coming traffic while moving at a snail's pace faster than what you are passing, then I assert you don't have a clue what the hell I'm talking about. I'm riding a friggin 1200, I expect, rather I should say demand, it to give me the cajones on command, but my 800 tops the 1200 in this regard. There are numerous reports that I'm not alone, read the Sport Rider review, and the current CW issue. Maybe you're not riding aggressive enough to experience it, so until you can demonstrate that I'm FOS, don't make assumptions you can't back up.
[image: View Post]Saint, on 05 July 2010 - 05:13 PM, said:
Hey solo...
Just got back from a run on my DCT and ran through the paces in manual mode. While I did notice that the acceleration in 2nd seemed a bit muted from 3-5k compared to 1st and 3rd, it still pulled enough that I probably wouldn't have noticed had you not posted. I'll be following this in the forums and will snag the latest Cycle mag as well.
I also downloaded a bunch of dyno charts for the 1200 from a google search. One from motorcycle.com shows a definite torque dip to 52 ft-lb @ 3100 rpm, climbing to 70 ft-lb @ 3900 rpm; maxes at 82 ft-lb @ 8700 with another dip to 69 ft-lb @ 5200 rpm. The steepest parts of the curve are from 3300-3900 rpm and 5300-5900 rpm. According to that, you should feel the power comin' on (rather than stagnating) in the same range you've noticed the problem. Keep us updated.
Ride safe,
Saint
Hey Saint,
Yes, I've seen the graphs you refer to which appear to be consistent across multiple dynos. The problem that CW noted is that there is a different torque curve in 2nd gear as opposed to the higher gears. Most dyno curves like what you see posted in magazines are run in top gear, but if you were to do a dyno run of the VFR in 2nd gear, the VFR drops 25 HP compared to a dyno run in 4th gear between 4000 and 6000 rpm! That is a massive delta. In theory the torque curve will be the same regardless of the chosen gear assuming the engine mapping or tuning is unchanged, but clearly the VFR software is intentionally crippling the power output in 2nd gear for whatever reason, be it emissions or noise or what have you. I just hope that Honda can eliminate this "dead zone" and still be compliant with the original reason for doing it.
Well, I went out and played around a bit today with roll on acceleration in 2nd and 3rd gears. It is definitely noticeable in 2nd gear, but not as large of an issue as stated above for me. That being said, I might be missing out at what RPM to start it at. As per the R1 video, it might have a lot to do with what RPM you are starting at. Mine is also a manual transmission, so that might make a little bit of difference in how it shows itself. As solo mentioned, I am sure it is something in the software.
For what it is worth, to me it isn't a lacking that I think will leave me in the path of something dangerous. I also think that it is still out accelerating my 800 in the same gear/rpm range. It is just a stark contrast to how the bike pulls in 3rd through the same RPM range and how 2nd pulls above 6k.
Hopefully there will be a fix for it, but I am still very happy with the bike as is.
[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 05 July 2010 - 07:05 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Saint, on 05 July 2010 - 05:13 PM, said:
Hey solo...
Just got back from a run on my DCT and ran through the paces in manual mode. While I did notice that the acceleration in 2nd seemed a bit muted from 3-5k compared to 1st and 3rd, it still pulled enough that I probably wouldn't have noticed had you not posted. I'll be following this in the forums and will snag the latest Cycle mag as well.
I also downloaded a bunch of dyno charts for the 1200 from a google search. One from motorcycle.com shows a definite torque dip to 52 ft-lb @ 3100 rpm, climbing to 70 ft-lb @ 3900 rpm; maxes at 82 ft-lb @ 8700 with another dip to 69 ft-lb @ 5200 rpm. The steepest parts of the curve are from 3300-3900 rpm and 5300-5900 rpm. According to that, you should feel the power comin' on (rather than stagnating) in the same range you've noticed the problem. Keep us updated.
Ride safe,
Saint
Hey Saint,
Yes, I've seen the graphs you refer to which appear to be consistent across multiple dynos. The problem that CW noted is that there is a different torque curve in 2nd gear as opposed to the higher gears. Most dyno curves like what you see posted in magazines are run in top gear, but if you were to do a dyno run of the VFR in 2nd gear, the VFR drops 25 HP compared to a dyno run in 4th gear between 4000 and 6000 rpm! That is a massive delta. In theory the torque curve will be the same regardless of the chosen gear assuming the engine mapping or tuning is unchanged, but clearly the VFR software is intentionally crippling the power output in 2nd gear for whatever reason, be it emissions or noise or what have you. I just hope that Honda can eliminate this "dead zone" and still be compliant with the original reason for doing it.
Saint,
One more thought. I noticed you're Canadian, it could very well be the Canadian version is tuned differently than the US version. Every manufacturer is required to homologate their products with regulatory agencies to ensure compliance with laws in each market they sell into. I don't know if Canadian regulations (noise, emissions, mileage, etc) are more or less onerous than those of the US, but IF less onerous than the US, then I can understand how your bike may not exhibit as severe a flat spot if any as the US version. I would be curious to know if European VFR's suffer from the same flat spot.
One of the reasons I went from the 650 V-Strom to the 1340 B-King was that I wanted 6th gear roll-on passing acceleration. The 'Busa-engined King certainly had it. It didn't set your hair on fire, but avoided the shift. Usually doing slightly above the 100 km/h posted limit @ 3000 (?) in 6th, the Suzuki would easily accelerate to 150 km/h within a few seconds.
What I found in most instances is that I preferred a quicker pass and would drop down to 4th (or even 3rd) to hit the B-King's arm-stretching torque zone (6000+). This allowed a hyper-space jump around the target vehicle(s).
Our new Viffer has similar ability so I again find myself paddling down to pass in the 6000+ tach range...with the added bonus of releasing that awesome 1200 growl. http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/cheerleader.gif
Cheers,
Saint
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/beer.gif
If you haven't already, start talking to Honda about this issue. Seriously. Don't expect them to be reading these boards. Start with your dealer, take the bike in, explain the problem thoroughly. If they can't find a problem, see if they will send a Honda rep over. If not, start calling Honda. This is a totally new bike and this may not be a problem they are familiar with yet. After working for Honda on the automotive side, i can assure you they do listen if you make it a point to get heard. If you think it is that much of a problem, make sure they know.
[image: View Post]tpierce(MP), on 06 July 2010 - 07:31 AM, said:
If you haven't already, start talking to Honda about this issue. Seriously. Don't expect them to be reading these boards. Start with your dealer, take the bike in, explain the problem thoroughly. If they can't find a problem, see if they will send a Honda rep over. If not, start calling Honda. This is a totally new bike and this may not be a problem they are familiar with yet. After working for Honda on the automotive side, i can assure you they do listen if you make it a point to get heard. If you think it is that much of a problem, make sure they know.
If the shop techs do not find anything ask the service advisor to call Honda Tech in California. They will not give you the number and you cannot talk to them your self but they are the most informed in the US. All shops consult with them on difficult problems. And they will keep a record of the discussion.
[image: View Post]slipknot, on 06 July 2010 - 05:54 PM, said:
[image: View Post]tpierce(MP), on 06 July 2010 - 07:31 AM, said:
If you haven't already, start talking to Honda about this issue. Seriously. Don't expect them to be reading these boards. Start with your dealer, take the bike in, explain the problem thoroughly. If they can't find a problem, see if they will send a Honda rep over. If not, start calling Honda. This is a totally new bike and this may not be a problem they are familiar with yet. After working for Honda on the automotive side, i can assure you they do listen if you make it a point to get heard. If you think it is that much of a problem, make sure they know.
If the shop techs do not find anything ask the service advisor to call Honda Tech in California. They will not give you the number and you cannot talk to them your self but they are the most informed in the US. All shops consult with them on difficult problems. And they will keep a record of the discussion.
x2. When I worked for a dealer we had a regional rep that we could escalate these types of things to. We were never allowed to give out his number to the public. He has too many customers in his region to deal with them directly.
He was very knowledgeable though. I remember one time in particular we were having long-term problems with electrical gremlins in an RC51, and he was able to help us solve it within just a few minutes.
I keep getting the feeling that your bike has some sort of malfunction.
It sounds like several of the other riders notice a slight dip in acceleration in the instance that you've pointed out, but not quite to the same degree.
If that is the case, I think MOST VFR riders would sleep a bit easier. No one that loves the VFR really wants a major electrical demon on the new model. :computer-noworky:
Good luck, and keep beating up those service techs!!
[image: View Post]horwitzs, on 07 July 2010 - 01:48 AM, said:
[image: View Post]slipknot, on 06 July 2010 - 05:54 PM, said:
[image: View Post]tpierce(MP), on 06 July 2010 - 07:31 AM, said:
If you haven't already, start talking to Honda about this issue. Seriously. Don't expect them to be reading these boards. Start with your dealer, take the bike in, explain the problem thoroughly. If they can't find a problem, see if they will send a Honda rep over. If not, start calling Honda. This is a totally new bike and this may not be a problem they are familiar with yet. After working for Honda on the automotive side, i can assure you they do listen if you make it a point to get heard. If you think it is that much of a problem, make sure they know.
If the shop techs do not find anything ask the service advisor to call Honda Tech in California. They will not give you the number and you cannot talk to them your self but they are the most informed in the US. All shops consult with them on difficult problems. And they will keep a record of the discussion.
x2. When I worked for a dealer we had a regional rep that we could escalate these types of things to. We were never allowed to give out his number to the public. He has too many customers in his region to deal with them directly.
He was very knowledgeable though. I remember one time in particular we were having long-term problems with electrical gremlins in an RC51, and he was able to help us solve it within just a few minutes.
True the regional rep can be of great help but the master techs with direct help from Japan are in California. When we had a stumped tech, and I mean techs with many years of experience, we called California, not the regional rep. Even if the regional rep had an answer, he was not always available due to duties on the road, the Master Techs were always available.
[image: View Post]Tamworth, on 05 July 2010 - 07:13 PM, said:
[image: View Post]huskysooner, on 05 July 2010 - 07:52 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Tamworth, on 05 July 2010 - 06:28 PM, said:
Well I can tell you from experience it does not "sit there" and that the original poster is exaggerating the issue greatly.
Well, that's smashing that the OP let you ride his particular unit and diagnose the situation! Problem solved!
:dry:
Well he's making it out like it's some big serious safety issue with the whole line which couldn't be further from the truth.
What's your story? Honda Legal Intern? 45 posts, no bike? Hmm.
OP: I find it ridiculous that the power is being limited in any way/shape/form other than maybe at the point where it's going to spin the rear tyre or wheelie out from under you. I don't pay attention to what gear I'm in, I go by where the needles are and it always does the same thing. All this electronic stuff... maaaaaaaaaan... Take back to Dealership and get a mechanic to ride pillon with you?
Good thing about your bike is problems like this can most likely be solved with a chip re-flash. Maybe it makes it more possible that Honda will really look into it and adress it ASAP. but other owners shouldn't just Pooh-pooh/discount another owner's concerns with his bike right away.
Early production products will always have their own bugs that get worked on eventually. Plus no bike is perfect., even VFRs..........so the earlier these possible problems are transmitted to the manufacturers and other owners, the better.
I have a new VFR that is in for the 600 mile service and I complained to the svc manager about what I would call stumbling/surging especially in the 3k - 4k rpm range. I have never had the sense that I would have problems getting aggressive acceleration when I want to make a pass or get out of the way of something, but in these cases, I would be opening the throttle up pretty wide. What I notice is that in any gear (though it shows up more in low gears for obvious reasons), the bike does not respond well to small throttle inputs, especially in the 3k - 4k range I mentioned. Riding on open roads or the fwy, no big deal, and you might never notice it. Riding in the city in stop and go traffic, it's a nuisance and I want it improved. When you make a right turn from a stoplight you may well notice this affecting your ability to hold the bike on the line you want because as anyone who rides knows, the throttle influences the line the bike takes. I also noticed that when I took my wife for a ride and we were in some traffic, she was having a hard time anticipating what the bike was doing because I could feel her tugging on my stomach when the bike would do its little stalls/surges going up through the low gears. My guess is that the injection/throttle bodies are not metering fuel/air well under specific throttle positions/rpm because it feels like the engine is going from lean to normal in some kind of oscillations when the throttle is open just crack.
I really like the bike in many ways, good power/torque, riding position, brakes, trans, clutch, but the surging is unacceptable for me because I commute on the bike and I expect better from Honda. I've had two BMW's I have an R1 and a C14 all with fuel injection and they are fine. The BMW's surge a bit and this was a known issue with the twins, but not nearly so much as the Honda.
The service manager is keeping the bike until the Honda rep can ride it. I'll let you know what they tell me. If that does not work out, I will definitely be talking to the reps in the Honda tent at the GP races to see what they can do. If all that fails, not sure what will come next, but I am not optimistic about a PC solving the problem.
[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 04 July 2010 - 07:20 PM, said:
I've now had the DCT for a couple weeks now and managed to log close 1500 miles thus far. The DCT aspect is all that I expected and more, but I now have a serious beef with the VFR that has nothing to do with DCT, it's common to both versions.
The problem is that nasty flat spot in 2nd gear. Apparently the sw flattens the power in the first 2 gears for whatever reason. I can understand softening the response in 1st to prevent undue wheel spin in low gear, but in 2nd this actually becomes a safety liability. On several occasions I pulled out to pass a car in 2nd gear, open the throttle and ....nothing happens! The tach ever so slowly crawls up to 5500 rpm then the big hit happens. NOT GOOD. This leaves you hanging in the breeze in a very vulnerable position. Not only is there a possibility of on coming traffic coming at you which previously was at a safe distance away, there may also be someone behind you expecting you to accelerate appropriately and rear ends you (not a smart move by anyone following to pass on the same maneuver).
In my mind this can cause a serious if not fatal accident. There are any number of scenarios which would require an immediate response of power to escape a hazardous situation. When sport riding, this flat spot is more of an inconvenience when driving out of a 2nd gear corner and I've experienced this numerous times, but the real danger comes when the power isn't there when you need it or expect it for safety reasons.
I hope the folks at Honda who monitor these forums get the message and convince the powers that be to develop a sw fix for this serious problem. If anyone has experienced this problem, please chime in. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but the choir needs to sing in harmony to make the music, Let's make sure Honda hears the choir.
The surging sounds suspiciously like the lean surge that all fuel-injected VFRs exhibit, only because the VFR1200 has less driveline slop due to the shaft drive, it's more pronounced. I doubt whether Honda will do anything about it - the only cure is likely to be to fit a PowerCommander.
I hope I'm wrong...
My observations are only based on a test ride,but the throttle by wire power restriction observed during the unusual 2nd gear dyno run in August issue Of Cycle World confirmed what I experienced during my Demo ride. I had read about it and really went looking for the decrease in response which was very obvious. It was odd for sure and I guess in certain circumstances could result in a "tricky" pass.
During an early spring Show I asked a Honda Canada rep, who I know is a seasoned Honda guy about this and the lack of a true traction control. His response was that Honda will only offer traction control when they are assured of it's fail safe operation. :biggrin: Obviously they have faith in the CPU cutting throttle response... Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the ST 1100 offer Traction control as an option one year?You know way back in the analog age?
Obviously the VFR 1200 makes some stout low end power , coupled with the shaft drive jacking the rear end somewhat( I know they have alleviated that problem!) could result in a tire breaking traction.Not something that should be unexpected with 150 RWHP!
Perhaps as far as the lower gears at least ,we could call it Honda Traction command instead of traction control....
Mercy Honda... you're going to give V4s a bad name messing with the most
perfect power band on the planet... first the silly VTEC... now this
annoying bump... just wait till I see those Honda engineers again...
OK is there any way to fool Mr.ECU that 3rd gear is selected while
you are actually in 1st and 2nd and get full power back???
Quote 2010 Aug Cycle World...
The VFR's rideby- wire system over-manages the l237cc V-Four
engine's power output in the lower two gears. Comparing output in
second gear versus that produced in fourth shows a 25-hp/lO-ft.-lb.
deficit between 4000 and 6000 rpm in second! This was not only obvious
but very annoying while trying to chase the Ducati up one of our
favorite SoCal roads. Let the revs drop too much in second gear then
snap open the throttle and the engine will only gradually deliver what
the right wrist is requesting. Maybe Honda knows something we don't,
as later in the day during a photo shoot in a faster sweeper where the
engine could sing in full glory from 6000 revs up, the VFR was laying
down long, arcing trails of black rubber a la Dani Pedrosa on his
RC212V MotoGP racer.
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 09 July 2010 - 10:00 PM, said:
Mercy Honda... you're going to give V4s a bad name messing with the most
perfect power band on the planet... first the silly VTEC... now this
annoying bump...
[image: View Post]Rama, on 09 July 2010 - 10:35 PM, said:
It bugs me and I anixously await a fix....I just know that 2nd gear would feel so good if it wasn't neutered down low.
If you think about it , 2nd gear is a pretty important gear on function, 1 st gear I dont care too much about, But second gear is what I call a balistic Gear, its need to rip and function well.
Well, I went out to thrash the 1200 this morning on my loop & immediately found the 1st & 2nd gear flat spots. I had not noticed it before.....
Today I purposely went looking for it & it really does sux! Most of the areas we run are generally 3rd & 4th curves except in a few places. So today I dropped a gear to see what roll-on would do & damn it it was there alright.... seems like the bike is either starved out or a input delay in the throttle-by-wire..... I also had sudden unpredictable acceleration a couple of times when the bog went and the engine really kicked in. Mother Honda needs to fix this. I'll be talking to my dealer come Tuesday.
[image: View Post]tharkun, on 11 July 2010 - 10:28 AM, said:
Well, I went out to thrash the 1200 this morning on my loop & immediately found the 1st & 2nd gear flat spots. I had not noticed it before.....
Today I purposely went looking for it & it really does sux! Most of the areas we run are generally 3rd & 4th curves except in a few places. So today I dropped a gear to see what roll-on would do & damn it it was there alright.... seems like the bike is either starved out or a input delay in the throttle-by-wire..... I also had sudden unpredictable acceleration a couple of times when the bog went and the engine really kicked in. Mother Honda needs to fix this. I'll be talking to my dealer come Tuesday.
Yep, there it is! I also spoke to my dealer this weekend. He will discuss this matter with Honda, hopefully they will issue a fix soon as it's the only fly in the ointment of an otherwise brilliantly executed machine.
[image: View Post]Tamworth, on 05 July 2010 - 07:28 PM, said:
[image: View Post]spud786, on 05 July 2010 - 07:10 PM, said:
It sounds like the 1200 rider who started the threat is experiencing the same thing. He is in a gear that should pull at that rpm and speed and it doesnt .
It sits there and hesitates , that is the 1200 riders complaint
Well I can tell you from experience it does not "sit there" and that the original poster is exaggerating the issue greatly.
Well, unless you ride his bike, you really can't say that. Isn't is possible that his bike has a serious issue?
[image: View Post]SteveSvfr750, on 14 July 2010 - 05:05 AM, said:
[image: View Post]Tamworth, on 05 July 2010 - 07:28 PM, said:
[image: View Post]spud786, on 05 July 2010 - 07:10 PM, said:
It sounds like the 1200 rider who started the threat is experiencing the same thing. He is in a gear that should pull at that rpm and speed and it doesnt .
It sits there and hesitates , that is the 1200 riders complaint
Well I can tell you from experience it does not "sit there" and that the original poster is exaggerating the issue greatly.
Well, unless you ride his bike, you really can't say that. Isn't is possible that his bike has a serious issue?
Yes you can say that. He has all but admitted in this thread that he's just trying to make enough noise for someone at Honda to listen.
The flat spot is annoying but not dangerous. THere are plenty of sporty bikes that accellerate slower in 2nd gear. Nobody thinks an SV650 is dangerously slow.
[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 05 July 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:
Excuse me sir but unless you've been in my "seat" don't assume you know what I'm experiencing is mere "exaggeration". Running my bike is S mode means the auto is choosing the optimal gear for the speed, and I can tell you when running at a sporting pace thru the technical twisties and coming out of a second gear turn, the engine just falls flat on it's face until 5500 rpm, then a big hit kicks in. The exact same thing happens when I'm pacing at 35mph, then roll on in 2nd to make a pass. Unless you've pulled out and suddenly realize you're facing on coming traffic while moving at a snail's pace faster than what you are passing, then I assert you don't have a clue what the hell I'm talking about. I'm riding a friggin 1200, I expect, rather I should say demand, it to give me the cajones on command, but my 800 tops the 1200 in this regard. There are numerous reports that I'm not alone, read the Sport Rider review, and the current CW issue. Maybe you're not riding aggressive enough to experience it, so until you can demonstrate that I'm FOS, don't make assumptions you can't back up.
I know you mentioned in your ride report that the shifting is seamless - is it possible that the bike is shifting into 3rd without you realizing, then when you roll on you're expecting it to be in second, when in reality the bike is lugging in 3rd then dropping back to 2nd?
[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 14 July 2010 - 09:40 AM, said:
I know you mentioned in your ride report that the shifting is seamless - is it possible that the bike is shifting into 3rd without you realizing, then when you roll on you're expecting it to be in second, when in reality the bike is lugging in 3rd then dropping back to 2nd?
[image: View Post]phobe, on 14 July 2010 - 07:36 AM, said:
Yes you can say that. He has all but admitted in this thread that he's just trying to make enough noise for someone at Honda to listen.
The flat spot is annoying but not dangerous. THere are plenty of sporty bikes that accellerate slower in 2nd gear. Nobody thinks an SV650 is dangerously slow.
It can be dangerous when you're in a situation where you are relying on an immediate burst of acceleration to get you out of a jam and it ain't there as I've described. It's pretty poor when my 800 does better than a 1200 in this situation. Unless you've experienced at situation like this, you're not going to think it's dangerous.
[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 14 July 2010 - 10:28 AM, said:
[image: View Post]phobe, on 14 July 2010 - 07:36 AM, said:
Yes you can say that. He has all but admitted in this thread that he's just trying to make enough noise for someone at Honda to listen.
The flat spot is annoying but not dangerous. THere are plenty of sporty bikes that accellerate slower in 2nd gear. Nobody thinks an SV650 is dangerously slow.
It can be dangerous when you're in a situation where you are relying on an immediate burst of acceleration to get you out of a jam and it ain't there as I've described. It's pretty poor when my 800 does better than a 1200 in this situation. Unless you've experienced at situation like this, you're not going to think it's dangerous.
So, find a fix or trade it in on another 800 or something you would be happy with. Enjoy the ride man...
[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 14 July 2010 - 11:49 AM, said:
[image: View Post]2thdr, on 14 July 2010 - 11:01 AM, said:
So, find a fix or trade it in on another 800 or something you would be happy with. Enjoy the ride man...
:idea3:
I didn't mean it as a put down. But seriously, where are you going from here? This forum has no Honda rep or tech that is going to run to Honda with your problem...you are going to have to do that it would seem to me. I just think the topic is moot at this point as far as this forum is concerned. Maybe someone can chime in and correct me if I'm missing the point. Hope you find a solution to your satisfaction.
[image: View Post]2thdr, on 14 July 2010 - 03:08 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 14 July 2010 - 11:49 AM, said:
[image: View Post]2thdr, on 14 July 2010 - 11:01 AM, said:
So, find a fix or trade it in on another 800 or something you would be happy with. Enjoy the ride man...
:idea3:
I didn't mean it as a put down. But seriously, where are you going from here? This forum has no Honda rep or tech that is going to run to Honda with your problem...you are going to have to do that it would seem to me. I just think the topic is moot at this point as far as this forum is concerned. Maybe someone can chime in and correct me if I'm missing the point. Hope you find a solution to your satisfaction.
I think that it is a good topic for discussion.
Solo - Being one of the first owners, you should expect to be the guinea pig. Since not too many others on here own or have ridden the 1200, there is not much we can do to contribute to this topic. And having read your description, I can certainly see how this condition can be annoying and even dangerous if it catches you off guard at the wrong moment.
I know how frustrating it is to have an issue with brand new equipment that isn't being widely acknowledged. (insert bangyourheadagainstthewall emoticon here).
Take the vtec transition as an example. (please don't start... :beatdeadhorse:) I had it really bad at times on my 02. Some on here felt my pain and some didn't. Why? Because not everyone have experienced it.
This topic should definitely be kept alive, b/c it deserves attention.
If I were to buy a 1200 now, which is something that I have thought about, I would think twice unless this issue has been addressed preferably by Honda or at least by aftermarket.
Just thought I would add a final follow up. Don't know if you subscribe, but I'm just now reading the article in Motorcycle Consumer News comparing the VFR1200 to to the new Connie 14 and the venerable FJR. I'm sure you would be very interested in reading it. The article is of course slanted towards evaluating the bikes as Sport Tourers and not the "Sportbike" capabilities. I am not done with the lenghty article, but so far I am disappointed with the VFR's showing. I was really hoping it was going to be my next bike, but I don't know after reading this...
Hold your horses everyone! It's easy to get the impression from this thread that I'm dissatisfied with the bike. Nothing could be further from the truth. The bike is truly an exceptional machine, especially the DCT which both transforms and transcends prior state of the art. I'm loving it!
It's this ONE aspect about which I'm voicing my concern, and I'm not alone as other publications such as Sport Rider and Cycle World have said essentially the same thing. The only difference is that they would never state that this issue is actually dangerous, that would be tantamount to declaring the bike unsaleable. Adverising dollars are in play despite what we want to believe. Just look at what happened recently to Dexter Ford at Motorcyclist for giving his opinions about certain Snell certified helmets even though he stated it in an unrelated publication (NYTimes).
On the other hand, some reviews however legit or not, have panned the VFR (Hell for Leather, Ash, etc). It's easy to think these opinions are gospel, if it's said in a blog, it MUST be true right? A lot of you are saying "well I was considering buying the VFR1200 but now I'm not....." based on these amaturish reviews. Do they have some credence? Perhaps at some level sure, but consider the source and the context of the review/reviewer. Even in this forum, sometimes things are said or implied which are nothing more than anecdotal evidence or misguided opinion by rank amatures. Even my concerns about the 2nd gear flat spot can be considered anecdotal, though it's corroborated by some credible individuals in the industry.
I've had discussions regarding this problem with my dealer and apparently so have others. Hopefully thru this channel as well as the major moto mags, Honda will get the message and develop a remedy. The good news is that a fix should be as simple as a software patch.
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 09 July 2010 - 04:00 PM, said:
OK is there any way to fool Mr.ECU that 3rd gear is selected while
you are actually in 1st and 2nd and get full power back???
I've been seriously considering the new Viffer as my next ride & this is an issue I hope can be resolved. Like others have said, 2nd gear should be uncorked! Not sure if mother Honda is retarding timing with one or more cylinders to limit output in 1st & 2nd. If they are, possibly a TRE (timing retard eliminator) can help.
I know lots of Zook & Kaw owners are using these to get around similar problems and/or top speed restrictors. Ivan's Performance in NY seems to be a popular source. They don't currently have anything in the works for the new VFRs, but are willing to develop something if someone brings them a bike.
[image: View Post]testrider, on 05 July 2010 - 02:36 AM, said:
Thanks for the heads up, solomoto. This is not good. I have never heard any
Japanese manufacturer provides software upgrade. BMW seems to be
the only one that does it. Even if Honda took notes and are willing
to investigate, it'll probably take months, if not years, to see a software upgrade to
existing bikes...
Honda doesn't let the dealers re-flash the ecms, they send you a new ecm with the new software and you send back the old one (which they reflash and send out again).
End of thread · 65 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 21 Jul 2010
