Clunk into 1st gear when downshifting?

Seems like if i downshift into first 15mph or over i get a noticable "clunk" into gear. And it almost feels like the rear wheels is locking slightly.

If i downshift into 1st goint like 12mph or less it goes insmooth as butter.

Anyone else notcing this? Is it putting wear on the shaft?

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 07 July 2010 - 05:21 PM, said:

Seems like if i downshift into first 15mph or over i get a noticable "clunk" into gear. And it almost feels like the rear wheels is locking slightly.

If i downshift into 1st goint like 12mph or less it goes insmooth as butter.

Anyone else notcing this? Is it putting wear on the shaft?


Mine does that and I don't even have a shaft drive.

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 08 July 2010 - 01:21 AM, said:

Seems like if i downshift into first 15mph or over i get a noticable "clunk" into gear. And it almost feels like the rear wheels is locking slightly.

If i downshift into 1st goint like 12mph or less it goes insmooth as butter.

Anyone else notcing this? Is it putting wear on the shaft?

I think it's normal......you want to hear real big 1st gear clunks?.......... ride a BMW.

Beck
95 VFR

I noted "clunks" between 1st and 2nd (up and down) on the manual I demoed AND my DCT. Must be a "design feature". http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/comp13.gif Transition between the rest of the gears are "snicks"...just how we like 'em! :fing02:

You need to be going slower. It's just like shifting into first while moving in a vehicle. It usually doesn't want to shift into 1st. It's like an anti-screw up. Car scenario: You don't want to be say in 5th gear and hit 1st gear. Bye bye drivetrain. Bike scenario: Shifting into 1st while going to fast can lock up the rear wheel.

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 07 July 2010 - 08:21 PM, said:

Seems like if i downshift into first 15mph or over i get a noticable "clunk" into gear. And it almost feels like the rear wheels is locking slightly.

If i downshift into 1st goint like 12mph or less it goes insmooth as butter.

Anyone else notcing this? Is it putting wear on the shaft?


Do you "blip" the throttle? I can do it at a much higher speed and still be smooth. (I cant give you a good speed as its kinda instinctive.) It may be your technique.

[image: View Post]mello dude, on 07 July 2010 - 07:12 PM, said:

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 07 July 2010 - 08:21 PM, said:

Seems like if i downshift into first 15mph or over i get a noticable "clunk" into gear. And it almost feels like the rear wheels is locking slightly.

If i downshift into 1st goint like 12mph or less it goes insmooth as butter.

Anyone else notcing this? Is it putting wear on the shaft?


Do you "blip" the throttle? I can do it at a much higher speed and still be smooth. (I cant give you a good speed as its kinda instinctive.) It may be your technique.


When i upshift i do. But when im coming to a stop, if i downshift into first going any higher than 15mph i get a clunk. This is while holding the clutch in.

Like say the light is red, i start downshifting through my gears, and when i hit 15mph, the light turns green. So i have an option, lug it in second, or clunk it into first and rev match. Ide much rather be in first at 15mph.

Like Mello Dude said it's kinda instinctive, You need to work on your rpm's with the rear tyre speed.... Sound's like you're low on rpm's.... You don't want to just blip the throttle, you're going to want to bring the rpm up to match the speed and hold the rpm up after it "slides" into gear. If you just blip the thottle to get it in gear then let off again the rear wheel will curp/slide big time..... Same with all gears..... Retired semi driver..... if it wasn't done like this with 45000 pounds I'd be dropping trannies all over the road... or jack-knifing......

[image: View Post]rangerscott69, on 07 July 2010 - 06:05 PM, said:

You need to be going slower. It's just like shifting into first while moving in a vehicle. It usually doesn't want to shift into 1st. It's like an anti-screw up. Car scenario: You don't want to be say in 5th gear and hit 1st gear. Bye bye drivetrain. Bike scenario: Shifting into 1st while going to fast can lock up the rear wheel.


Slipper clutch?

I agree, make sure you match the revs, give it a little gas when going down into 1st if you are at more than parking lot speed.

[image: View Post]Monk, on 07 July 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:

Like Mello Dude said it's kinda instinctive, You need to work on your rpm's with the rear tyre speed.... Sound's like you're low on rpm's.... You don't want to just blip the throttle, you're going to want to bring the rpm up to match the speed and hold the rpm up after it "slides" into gear. If you just blip the thottle to get it in gear then let off again the rear wheel will curp/slide big time..... Same with all gears..... Retired semi driver..... if it wasn't done like this with 45000 pounds I'd be dropping trannies all over the road... or jack-knifing......


This clunk is all happening with the clutch pulled in. Im not talking about the tired catching when i let off the clutch.

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 07 July 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

When i upshift i do.

You blip the throttle on upshifts? Why in the world do you do that?

[image: View Post]Trace, on 07 July 2010 - 10:17 PM, said:

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 07 July 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

When i upshift i do.

You blip the throttle on upshifts? Why in the world do you do that?


Eh i think maybe i misunderstood. My upshifting is pretty seamless. Lets get back t the clunking :-)

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 08 July 2010 - 12:15 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Monk, on 07 July 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:

Like Mello Dude said it's kinda instinctive, You need to work on your rpm's with the rear tyre speed.... Sound's like you're low on rpm's.... You don't want to just blip the throttle, you're going to want to bring the rpm up to match the speed and hold the rpm up after it "slides" into gear. If you just blip the thottle to get it in gear then let off again the rear wheel will curp/slide big time..... Same with all gears..... Retired semi driver..... if it wasn't done like this with 45000 pounds I'd be dropping trannies all over the road... or jack-knifing......


This clunk is all happening with the clutch pulled in. Im not talking about the tired catching when i let off the clutch.

That doesn't make any difference, the clutch is just to help, it doesn't do all the work for you.... You still need to balance the gears/rpm/rear wheel...... Take your car for a drive(if you have a straight stick) and try to put it in gear while doing 30 mph... You're going to have to put your foot on the throttle and get the rpm's up and hold 'em there for it to slide in... and that's with a synchronized tranny(car).... Bikes don't have synchronizers in their gears.....

Also the longer you hold the clutch in(with out matching rpm,etc.)the worse off it's going to be.... Because the longer you hold the clutch the more time the rpm's have to lose their momentum from the speed they were carrying before you disingaged the clutch.

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 07 July 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Monk, on 07 July 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:

Like Mello Dude said it's kinda instinctive, You need to work on your rpm's with the rear tyre speed.... Sound's like you're low on rpm's.... You don't want to just blip the throttle, you're going to want to bring the rpm up to match the speed and hold the rpm up after it "slides" into gear. If you just blip the thottle to get it in gear then let off again the rear wheel will curp/slide big time..... Same with all gears..... Retired semi driver..... if it wasn't done like this with 45000 pounds I'd be dropping trannies all over the road... or jack-knifing......


This clunk is all happening with the clutch pulled in. Im not talking about the tired catching when i let off the clutch.


It's normal. It happens with my 5th gen. When I come to a stop at, say, a stoplight, I downshift and use engine braking all the way down to second, then when I'm almost at a complete stop, I'll shift into first. This avoids the clunk. I think it's because you probably have the clutch in for a little bit too long, which causes the engine speed to slow down too much. Then when you shift into first, the engine isn't spinning fast enough to allow the gear to enter easily.

Not to get off, on a who can and can't thing..... BUT....... modern day cars are the culprit to the lack of proper shifting for todays drivers, because of the synchronizers now used on all modern cars.... It allows people to change gears without synchronizing the rpm's/tranny.... they are called in the trucking circles "Gear-Jammers"...... Yes it can be called normal that most bikes clunk going into 1st coming from 2nd..... but normal only in the since that a lot of people don't shift correctly..... Sorry.... I've had 2 Beemers '72 and a '02 neither one clunked...... Beemers don't clunk, only the riders do..... Wish I had that in a T-shirt.....

[image: View Post]jaimev34, on 07 July 2010 - 10:37 PM, said:

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 07 July 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Monk, on 07 July 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:

Like Mello Dude said it's kinda instinctive, You need to work on your rpm's with the rear tyre speed.... Sound's like you're low on rpm's.... You don't want to just blip the throttle, you're going to want to bring the rpm up to match the speed and hold the rpm up after it "slides" into gear. If you just blip the thottle to get it in gear then let off again the rear wheel will curp/slide big time..... Same with all gears..... Retired semi driver..... if it wasn't done like this with 45000 pounds I'd be dropping trannies all over the road... or jack-knifing......


This clunk is all happening with the clutch pulled in. Im not talking about the tired catching when i let off the clutch.


It's normal. It happens with my 5th gen. When I come to a stop at, say, a stoplight, I downshift and use engine braking all the way down to second, then when I'm almost at a complete stop, I'll shift into first. This avoids the clunk. I think it's because you probably have the clutch in for a little bit too long, which causes the engine speed to slow down too much. Then when you shift into first, the engine isn't spinning fast enough to allow the gear to enter easily.


Yea this sounds about right. I can avoid the clunk if i wait till im almost stopped then put it into first. Been trying to make it habit. Just sucks when the light turns green and i want to use first instead of second (because of the tall gears on the vfr1200).

By the way.... On my last post in this thead(#16).... I was trying to make a point about properly shifting smoothly.... And not trying to make anyone look bad..... It just happens to be one thing that I'm better at than all the stuff I'm not good at doing.... Like taking curves at a knee dragging pace.... They're not called chicken stripes for nothing....... Thanks, Monk

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 08 July 2010 - 01:17 AM, said:

[image: View Post]jaimev34, on 07 July 2010 - 10:37 PM, said:

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 07 July 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Monk, on 07 July 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:

Like Mello Dude said it's kinda instinctive, You need to work on your rpm's with the rear tyre speed.... Sound's like you're low on rpm's.... You don't want to just blip the throttle, you're going to want to bring the rpm up to match the speed and hold the rpm up after it "slides" into gear. If you just blip the thottle to get it in gear then let off again the rear wheel will curp/slide big time..... Same with all gears..... Retired semi driver..... if it wasn't done like this with 45000 pounds I'd be dropping trannies all over the road... or jack-knifing......


This clunk is all happening with the clutch pulled in. Im not talking about the tired catching when i let off the clutch.


It's normal. It happens with my 5th gen. When I come to a stop at, say, a stoplight, I downshift and use engine braking all the way down to second, then when I'm almost at a complete stop, I'll shift into first. This avoids the clunk. I think it's because you probably have the clutch in for a little bit too long, which causes the engine speed to slow down too much. Then when you shift into first, the engine isn't spinning fast enough to allow the gear to enter easily.


Yea this sounds about right. I can avoid the clunk if i wait till im almost stopped then put it into first. Been trying to make it habit. Just sucks when the light turns green and i want to use first instead of second (because of the tall gears on the vfr1200).


Alright, let's get a little more specific here. The cause of the clunking has absolutely nothing to do with the type of final drive, in this case shaft vs. chain. Just forget that. Also forget your "blipping" on upshifts - pointless unless you enjoy that, or your take your sweet time on upshifts?

The clunk you're experiencing has EVERYTHING to do with your transmission speed. You're putting excess strain on your shift pawls by trying to shift into 1st at too high a speed. You're applying pressure on the shift lever, but the pawls/dogs can't engage the gears because the speed of the rotating transmission gears is too high. When they finally slow down enough to engage, they are engaging at the high end of the ideal engagement speed, which results in the clunk you hear/feel. The clunk is a result of the violent engagement of your transmission.

You can remedy this by slowing down more before engaging first gear. In your example you gave re: the light red light turning green - instead of shifting down, stay in second feather your clutch/throttle. It'll take a bit of practice - as will properly rev-matching during rapid downshifts from the higher gears.

If you keep clunking first, we'll be seeing a post from you in a few years or more about how your shifting feels sloppy...

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 08 July 2010 - 02:38 PM, said:

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 08 July 2010 - 01:17 AM, said:

[image: View Post]jaimev34, on 07 July 2010 - 10:37 PM, said:

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 07 July 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Monk, on 07 July 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:

Like Mello Dude said it's kinda instinctive, You need to work on your rpm's with the rear tyre speed.... Sound's like you're low on rpm's.... You don't want to just blip the throttle, you're going to want to bring the rpm up to match the speed and hold the rpm up after it "slides" into gear. If you just blip the thottle to get it in gear then let off again the rear wheel will curp/slide big time..... Same with all gears..... Retired semi driver..... if it wasn't done like this with 45000 pounds I'd be dropping trannies all over the road... or jack-knifing......


This clunk is all happening with the clutch pulled in. Im not talking about the tired catching when i let off the clutch.


It's normal. It happens with my 5th gen. When I come to a stop at, say, a stoplight, I downshift and use engine braking all the way down to second, then when I'm almost at a complete stop, I'll shift into first. This avoids the clunk. I think it's because you probably have the clutch in for a little bit too long, which causes the engine speed to slow down too much. Then when you shift into first, the engine isn't spinning fast enough to allow the gear to enter easily.


Yea this sounds about right. I can avoid the clunk if i wait till im almost stopped then put it into first. Been trying to make it habit. Just sucks when the light turns green and i want to use first instead of second (because of the tall gears on the vfr1200).


Alright, let's get a little more specific here. The cause of the clunking has absolutely nothing to do with the type of final drive, in this case shaft vs. chain. Just forget that. Also forget your "blipping" on upshifts - pointless unless you enjoy that, or your take your sweet time on upshifts?

The clunk you're experiencing has EVERYTHING to do with your transmission speed. You're putting excess strain on your shift pawls by trying to shift into 1st at too high a speed. You're applying pressure on the shift lever, but the pawls/dogs can't engage the gears because the speed of the rotating transmission gears is too high. When they finally slow down enough to engage, they are engaging at the high end of the ideal engagement speed, which results in the clunk you hear/feel. The clunk is a result of the violent engagement of your transmission.

You can remedy this by slowing down more before engaging first gear. In your example you gave re: the light red light turning green - instead of shifting down, stay in second feather your clutch/throttle. It'll take a bit of practice - as will properly rev-matching during rapid downshifts from the higher gears.

If you keep clunking first, we'll be seeing a post from you in a few years or more about how your shifting feels sloppy...



Awesome. thanks. This was the type of information i was hoping would show up in this thread. Thanks for the info. Feathering 2nd it is!

During my 50 km demo ride on the manual and my 450 km's so far on my DCT, the "clunking" between 1st and 2nd occurs (occured) all the time when shifting at lower rpms (e.g. 2500-4000). Whether I was the "clutcher", or the DCT took care of the business, it was the same thing. I didn't "kick the tires" on the demo, but on my DCT when I shift to 2nd at the higher end of the tach, I hardly hear the shift. That said, at higher revs I don't hear any shifts at all between 2nd and 6th.

A final thought is that the "clunk" on the Viffer is no worse than many other bike's gear transitions through all their gears all the time. It just that it's such a contrast to the suble "snick" on the manual, and the usually imperceptable change on the DCT, through the rest of the gearbox. I've accepted it as part of the bike's unique character.

Chow for now,
Saint

.