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Twists and Leans: Trusting your Tires... How did you do it?

53 posts Started 22 Jan 2011 Last recovered post 24 Jan 2011 Wayback Machine snapshot 30 Jan 2011

#1
First off, I know this isn't optimal weather and conditions for this kind of riding, but hey... what can I say?

Today, it was such a nice day (as nice a day as it can be in Jan. - Sunny 50F no wind) I decided to go out and do some riding. As I was riding along, I took some turns I never had before to do some exploring. Found a nice stretch of road that had some great twists and turns in it. After riding it, I decided to turn around and go back through because there was absolutely no traffic whatsoever on this stretch of road. Furthermore, I had never really done any real twistie action yet so I figured this was as good an opportunity as I would get.

I started out real slow... leaning a tad more each time and going a tad faster to try and get a feel for it. But for the life of me, as I got more aggressive... I found myself pussing out and braking or slowing. AFFRAID that I was going to lowside or crash or just plain fall over.

My question is: How did get over the hump of trusting your leans? Trusting that your tires would not slide? Learning at what speed you can take an approach and feel comfortable about it?

Thanks in advance.
#2
all i have to say is get some dual compound dunlops or sum bridgstone tires. just be one with the bike and look through the turn and roll on that throttle!
#3
well.. find a buddy or your girl.. and find a not too busy clover near you.. you know.. a hiway interchange.. shaped like a 4 leaf clover.. just keep going and going.. your pal should be parked near by in a car with a book and phone. and a gallon of gas..

this will help with right hand leaning.. i have not found to many places with a good left hand clover..
if you have a big CIRCLE some place.. like the one right in front of the philly art museum.. .. focus on smoothness and not speed
#4
Take a course and invest in your riding skills! The single best way to spend your money to improve your riding. I can almost guarantee you are not riding up to the ability of your tires or your bike unless your rim protectors are past their age or mileage life.
#5
Yeah I have been looking at some courses. With my work schedule it is proving hard to find a few days that I can set aside to do that sort of thing.

I would be affraid to do the clover ride. The only ones near here are like super Traffic Heavy and I would be even more timid with cars following me.

I actually read through some posts here on turning and leaning and apparently I was doing it all wrong. This is going to be harder than I thought. I guess the fear of crashing might mean I am not ready for this kind of riding.

It happens.
#6
read the book total control...
look at the pic at the top of this thread.. go when the traffic is LIGHT.. i mean common.. you must know how to ride.. you have had at least 5 bikes... find a slow clover.. drive an hour away if you have to..
heres the thing.
go through the clover at slow pace look for any trash or bad spots.. and then just take your time and learn the road..
then build up your speed and lean angle. :fing02:
#7
PRACTICE, Practice, practice. You are right, it is all about trust. Trust yourself to be smooth on the throttle, on the brakes and everything in between. Force yourself to keep a light grip so you can feel the feedback through the bars. Keep your tires properly inflated and trust them to do their job. One day it will all click and you'll be amazed and thrilled.
#8

[image: View Post]gll429, on 21 January 2011 - 09:19 PM, said:

read the book total control...
look at the pic at the top of this thread.. go when the traffic is LIGHT.. i mean common.. you must know how to ride.. you have had at least 5 bikes... find a slow clover.. drive an hour away if you have to..
heres the thing.
go through the clover at slow pace look for any trash or bad spots.. and then just take your time and learn the road..
then build up your speed and lean angle. :fing02:


Hahaha yeah I have had 5 bikes... but to be honest, I have never did any aggressive riding. I am actually a riding newbie as I have only been riding for a few years. Today was my first venture into anything remotely considered aggressive, except for the trail rides I did with my Dual Sport.

Yeah I hear ya on the Practice thing. I have to admit, it was extremely thrilling lol. (for an old man, that is a great feeling) I plan on going back out tomorrow and try and run it again (no traffic pending) to see if I can apply some of the stuff in some threads I have read so far.
#9
I've heard there are two kinds of racers... the first is intrepid, and carefully increases his speed until he is able to feel the bike is at his limits and learns in that way.

Then, there's the other kind... goes out on the track and goes really fast... and falls off. And says, "That's too fast". Then, goes back out and goes a little slower and falls off, and says, "That's still too fast"..

I'm the latter. I have the broken legs, knees, hands, scapula, and back to prove it... and I'm still not as fast as I want to be... one day, I may be, but I'm sure I'll be too old then.

I'm hoping like heck I'll be able to attend another race school this spring to try to learn something I've always wanted to; sliding. The American Supercampis holding a camp in Gainsville, GA March 13th and 14th this year... just gotta come up with the 6 bills. Thinking about cashing in some 401k money hanging out there, 'cause, I ain't gettin' much out of it now.
#10
you sorta answered your own question with the "a tad bit more each time"

right now you are comfy up to a point. later that point will farther over and the new uncomfy will be farther over and so on........

remember to examine your performance. think back on what felt good and what made you a lil jerky. You gotta be honest with yourself and very self critical too. It will come. Even with no untouched tread left and a knee on the deck, I am at nowhere near the VFR's limits. I will let everyone know when I have out-ridden the bike. (Dont hold your breath.............................)
#11
What helped me was a track day with a rented and insured bike. My main worry on the street was "What if I break my bike." I did not have to worry about that on the track. On the track all the real life worries should be gone. it helps to clean your head. There is no law enforcement to begin with. :biggrin: There is no oncoming traffic. There is no ditch or trees to run into. There are no pedestrians to jump front of you. There are no traffic lights and signs. And there is an ambulance on site just in case. All in all, there is nothing to worry about!

After a couple hours in the class talking about riding the first session was the real ice breaker for me. During the first session I was following the instructor. The first lap was really slow, it felt I did not even leaned the bike. The second lap was a little faster required a little leaning. The third lap was a little faster again, I had to lean the bike into turns. The forth lap was faster again, I had to move my butt off of the seat.The fifth lap was faster... and so on.

So, finally I reached my limit that I was comfortable riding and started to fall behind the instructor. Then, I started to think. We are on the same track, we ride the same bikes, we ride on same tires, the tires equally warm and sticky. Why is he faster? Well, he leans more. (and of course he had better lines than I did)

So, there come the moment when I had to leave my comfort zone and started to experience. I moved my body a little more to the side, then I leaned a little more. I sticked my knee out a little more, then I leaned more again. In each and every turn I thought I am going to crash. But I did not! If the instructor makes it then I have to make it, as long as I ride similar to him. So, I just got braver and braver...

Finally, I put my left knee down and I spend the rest of my days destroying my left knee slider. :biggrin: I need an other track day to work on my right though. :angry:
#12
Someone I trusted told me a long time ago, "just keep leaning it, you're not going to lean too far..." in response to this same question, and was speaking specifically of the VFR which he also rode.

Go to a 1 or 2 day beginning track class. You'll push it and see how far you still are from the limits of the bike. It was the best 2 days I spent on a bike early in my riding career...

Funny thing is when you think you've got the bike to the limit you get the track photographer's photos back and you're almost sitting upright with a knee hanging in the wind... :laughing6-hehe: I can send a few pics of me like that if needed.... :biggrin:
#13
:goofy: :goofy:

[image: View Post]vfrcapn, on 21 January 2011 - 10:04 PM, said:

I can send a few pics of me like that if needed.... :biggrin:


Those things will get over pretty good! :goofy:
[image: Posted Image]
#14

[image: View Post]oyama, on 21 January 2011 - 09:59 PM, said:

What helped me was a track day with a rented and insured bike. My main worry on the street was "What if I break my bike." I did not have to worry about that on the track. On the track all the real life worries should be gone. it helps to clean your head. There is no law enforcement to begin with. :biggrin: There is no oncoming traffic. There is no ditch or trees to run into. There are no pedestrians to jump front of you. There are no traffic lights and signs. And there is an ambulance on site just in case. All in all, there is nothing to worry about!

After a couple hours in the class talking about riding the first session was the real ice breaker for me. During the first session I was following the instructor. The first lap was really slow, it felt I did not even leaned the bike. The second lap was a little faster required a little leaning. The third lap was a little faster again, I had to lean the bike into turns. The forth lap was faster again, I had to move my butt off of the seat.The fifth lap was faster... and so on.

So, finally I reached my limit that I was comfortable riding and started to fall behind the instructor. Then, I started to think. We are on the same track, we ride the same bikes, we ride on same tires, the tires equally warm and sticky. Why is he faster? Well, he leans more. (and of course he had better lines than I did)

So, there come the moment when I had to leave my comfort zone and started to experience. I moved my body a little more to the side, then I leaned a little more. I sticked my knee out a little more, then I leaned more again. In each and every turn I thought I am going to crash. But I did not! If the instructor makes it then I have to make it, as long as I ride similar to him. So, I just got braver and braver...

Finally, I put my left knee down and I spend the rest of my days destroying my left knee slider. :biggrin: I need an other track day to work on my right though. :angry:


WOW! That first sentence basically summed up my whole fear really. I really wish I could find the time to hit a track day.

Sounds like from the responses that there is really no "zen" or "wax on wax off" to this. I figured that as much, but I am not one to hesitate to ask for help. From reading this forum, someone has ALWAYS been there done that. Figured it couldn't hurt to ask hehe. Guess like everything, it will take some time. My first mistake from what I have read and remember so far was body positioning. I was way off on that it appears. Second was approach to the turns. There was a couple that had a high approach to a low on the other end so I really didn't know the degree of the turn. Hell, even after doing the same turn like 10 times I still braked.

This stretch of road is really sweet. It is basically three miles or so of twisty back road with no pot holes and farmland on both sides. The fields are clear of any crops at the moment so it allows for some decent view of the road.
#15
I go to the monthly Doc Wong riding clinic in my home town (free!) where each month they focus on a specific riding skill. The 1 hour lecture is followed by a group ride split in to 3 groups by ability and pace. They recommend Keith Code's book (there is also a DVD) "A Twist of the Wrist" - you'll find it on Amazon - they're pretty cheap. +1 on the track day recommendation - you'll improve more there for the reasons stated in a single day than hundreds or thousands of miles of street riding.

The hard part of expanding the envelope is in that moment (which we've probably all had) where you feel like you're in to the corner "too hot" and the survival instinct kicks in - to tighten muscles up, then apply braking which stands the bike up and makes you run wider, which causes more survival instinct, etc. The best tip they gave me which helped me improve was to grip the bike with the lower body - legs, knees in the tank, etc and keep a loose, comfortable hold on the grips. Complete the braking prior to leaning the bike, then "drop the inside shoulder" while cornering. That did several things - it shifted my weight to the inside of the turn, relaxed my inside arm while applying just enough counter-steer and forced me to look further through the turn. Suddenly I forgot about my tires as it seemed so natural. It seemed like the bike was begging to be leaned over rather than me trying to force it over. It's important to keep the arms relaxed and not be squeezing orange juice out of the grips. As they pointed out in class, the capabilities of most of today's tires exceed the average rider's capabilities. If you are pushing the tire's limits on the street, you're probably going too fast. The last thing they said is that there's no shame in a chicken strip. Ride within your capabilities, not your buddy's.
#16
All newbs (only encouragement and love intended)should be encouraged to beg, borrow or steal a dirtbike, ride the wheels off it everywhere then focus on gravel (forest service/logging road/powerline maintenance roads, etc.) to discover limits of traction. Guaranteed you'll learn all you want to know about body placement and balance as well as PAIN thresholds! Seriously, a dirtbike's turning ability will far exceed a road bike and their tires come nowhere near what we have on our road going machinery. Master the offroad and you will find little to fear (at least within your own bike and abilities) on the road or track.
#17
Funny you mention the dirtbike thing. I was actually hoping to do that kind of stuff on my Dual Sport. Well, that didn't have the effect I was hoping for which is why I sold it.

Looking at a YZ125/250 (maybe 250) at the moment. The XL looks sweet too but not sure if the 650 is what I want after riding that KLR.
#18
Some things to help your trust factor .... Watch a mc race when they're riding in the rain, they're still leaning more than most street riders on dry.(even though the racers have stickier tyres)...... But look at some of our own VFR riders pic's with street tyres, kicking up sparks and still have side bags mounted. As said build it up with time... Just remember that you're not suppose to grip the handlebars much at all.... if you practice the light touch all the time, you'll know when you're going faster than you're ready for when you put a death grip on the bars.
Remember that most riders that lose it in a turn, do so for not turning far enough..... not because the tyre didn't grip...........Let off of it before starting your turn enough that you'll be going slow enough to always be giving it gas though the turn(at least while you're learning, you can brake further in to the turn at another time(trail braking). The point with this is your bike will be in the best moving setup when under acceleration. "In slow out faster".
I like cloverleafs too. But working out on the same road over and over works just as well, and if you can find one tight enough you won't have to worry about speeding, since you'll never be going fast enough anyway.
#19

[image: View Post]Infidel, on 21 January 2011 - 10:35 PM, said:



Sounds like from the responses that there is really no "zen" or "wax on wax off" to this.


WROOOOOONNNNGGGGGG!!!!!!
wax on wax off!!
meaning practice your circles!!! repeat and repeat and it becomes a second nature.
didnt you watch the whole movie? :owned:

you know that move that flips a bad guy, and breaking a table in every action movie..

thats a basic akido "break fall".. you learn that in the first week.. and keep doing it EVERY class...
when i did a highsider at 130 my body MOVED to roll.. and i did a PERFECT break roll! i walked away from that with a slightly aching forearm....
in any case..
my point.. do enough of them and it becomes a 2nd nature. :fing02:
so get your butt on the bike.. and PRACTICE THEM CIRCLES!! :cheerleader:
#20

[image: View Post]gll429, on 21 January 2011 - 11:51 PM, said:


my point.. do enough of them and it becomes a 2nd nature. :fing02:
so get your butt on the bike.. and PRACTICE THEM CIRCLES!! :cheerleader:



they tell us in firearms training all the time:

"It takes 3, 000 to 5,000 repetitions to burn a movement into your body's muscle memory."
#21
My question is: How did get over the hump of trusting your leans? Trusting that your tires would not slide? Learning at what speed you can take an approach and feel comfortable about it?

Can you feel the traction level?

Some people cant, but it does vary alot depending on condition. Like I went out the other day performance rain riding in 39 degree weather, very poor traction conditions.
#22

[image: View Post]timmythecop, on 22 January 2011 - 12:03 AM, said:

[image: View Post]gll429, on 21 January 2011 - 11:51 PM, said:


my point.. do enough of them and it becomes a 2nd nature. :fing02:
so get your butt on the bike.. and PRACTICE THEM CIRCLES!! :cheerleader:



they tell us in firearms training all the time:

"It takes 3, 000 to 5,000 repetitions to burn a movement into your body's muscle memory."

You make a great point Timmy.... I know when I was at the top of my game throwing darts(hours a day).... I could actually feel it in my arm when setting up for the trip-20 or the bull's eye.... It was like my arm would set like an (indent) before I threw.......
#23
If you want a copy of the Kieth Code DVD LMK and I will make one for you so long as you don't tell the copyright police! :laughing6-hehe:
#24

[image: View Post]motorhead1977, on 22 January 2011 - 06:52 AM, said:

If you want a copy of the Kieth Code DVD LMK and I will make one for you so long as you don't tell the copyright police! :laughing6-hehe:



can you make me a copy and send it to me in indonesia? there are no rider schools here its just Learn your self or learn the hard way.
#25
Trying to find the limits of traction on the street seems like a good recipe for getting hurt. Go to a riding school; it will be the best money you've ever spent on riding. There is much more to riding quickly than simply learning to lean the bike over. Throttle control, proper steering input, body position, lines, smoothness, etc., are all important.

Keep in mind that "practice makes permanent", so it's critical that you practice good technique. It's just as easy to ingrain bad technique as it is proper technique. Good instruction, with immediate feedback from a knowledgeable coach, is the best way to learn to ride well. Going to a track to learn allows you to focus on your riding, and not waste attention on traffic, road conditions, etc. If you screw up, there will be an ambulance, too!

NC is close to a number of tracks (e.g., Virginia International Raceway, Carolina Motorsports Park) that run riding schools. I'm a fan of Keith Code's California Superbike School, which comes to VIR twice a year. The Superbike School provides bikes at a reasonable cost. Cornerspeed runs a race school at VIR several times a year, too. Most of the track day organizations (NESBA, Cornerspeed, Team Promotion, etc.) have riding schools, as well as friendly control riders that will help. Cornerspin runs a "road racing in the dirt" school out of a facility just north of Charlotte, NC, where they use small dirt bikes to learn riding at the limit of traction.

Lee Park's "Total Control" and Keith Code's "A Twist of the Wrist, vol. II" are good books.

Go to school! It will be great fun, and you�ll learn a lot!
#26
I think it all comes down to how much you can feel what your tires and suspension are doing when you lean her over. If you have a vague front end and maybe a rear end that seems to be moving around in ways you cannot predict, In my case, A teak on the rear and front suspension to put more wieght on the front, a change to much better tires and installation of a front fork brace for less stiction.more compliance (I think it did wonders for traction) and some needed ajustments to the suspension settings in the last two years finally made my 95 a delight on the twisties, wherein before that it felt like a nervous wreck ready to spit me into the bushes at anytime in the mountains. Feel/communication = confidence! :fing02:
Beck
95 VFR
#27
Lots of good tips here. Rather than focusing on how fast you're going through a turn, focus on how well you go through the turn, hitting the proper line, having good, comfortable body position, and being smooth in everything from the braking, body shifting, leaning and acceleration out. If you do that, the speed will come naturally. A good example happened to me in a race a couple of years ago. After the start, my teammate was two spots ahead of me, with a slower rider in between us. It took me a couple of turns to get around the slower guy and by then my teammate was a bit ahead. I tried hard to go faster to catch up. The harder I tried, the farther ahead he got. I was blowing turns because I was trying to go fast. I backed off and decided to focus on hitting each corner perfectly. After that, I realized that he was getting closer and closer. My lap times showed that I was getting faster and faster. It works. It really does.

When you do things right, you will run out of ground clearance before you run out of tire (and that's true on most street bikes with modern tires) and if you're being smooth, you will detect that and recover before things get out of control. The best way to learn what I'm saying is to take a performance riding course like Jason Pridmore's STAR school. It will be the best money you ever spent on riding.
#28

[image: View Post]spud786, on 22 January 2011 - 01:04 AM, said:

My question is: How did get over the hump of trusting your leans? Trusting that your tires would not slide? Learning at what speed you can take an approach and feel comfortable about it?

Can you feel the traction level?

Some people cant, but it does vary alot depending on condition. Like I went out the other day performance rain riding in 39 degree weather, very poor traction conditions.


Not really. To be honest, I had no faith in my ability to keep the bike upright. I mean, I was on a public road and I really have never been a "Break the Law - Speeding" type of guy. Im 41 and never have had a moving or parking violation to date. :D (Yes, goody two shoes in the Driving World lol) After some extensive reading on this site last night, I have come to realize it is more than just leaning and stuff. A lot of it has to do with faith. Faith in your bike and faith in your skills. Well, I know my skills will and can improve in time. But, faith in the bike is another thing... and that was kind of my fear in this thread. I wanted to see if someone had the same issue with i did. For example. I was Airborne in the Army. I had NO FEAR of heights. Loved it.. but to this day everytime I jumped I had no idea what kind of Rig was going to happen. Roll, Streamer, ect. My fear lies in equipment failure fear more than riding skill failure.

[image: View Post]motorhead1977, on 22 January 2011 - 06:52 AM, said:

If you want a copy of the Kieth Code DVD LMK and I will make one for you so long as you don't tell the copyright police! :laughing6-hehe:


Hell yeah sure. I'll throw you a PM.

[image: View Post]VF1000R, on 22 January 2011 - 10:08 AM, said:

Lots of good tips here. Rather than focusing on how fast you're going through a turn, focus on how well you go through the turn, hitting the proper line, having good, comfortable body position, and being smooth in everything from the braking, body shifting, leaning and acceleration out. If you do that, the speed will come naturally. A good example happened to me in a race a couple of years ago. After the start, my teammate was two spots ahead of me, with a slower rider in between us. It took me a couple of turns to get around the slower guy and by then my teammate was a bit ahead. I tried hard to go faster to catch up. The harder I tried, the farther ahead he got. I was blowing turns because I was trying to go fast. I backed off and decided to focus on hitting each corner perfectly. After that, I realized that he was getting closer and closer. My lap times showed that I was getting faster and faster. It works. It really does.

When you do things right, you will run out of ground clearance before you run out of tire (and that's true on most street bikes with modern tires) and if you're being smooth, you will detect that and recover before things get out of control. The best way to learn what I'm saying is to take a performance riding course like Jason Pridmore's STAR school. It will be the best money you ever spent on riding.


Nice day today but COOOLLLDDDD.. Not sure if I will do what I did yesterday today. Im definately going out and do some slow passes to work on those things. The fear of the bike is another thing though. Guess I should have done a search here before posting and reading those threads instead of makin' myself look like a jackass hehe.

/salute you all for your tips and assistance.
#29
I have over a grand in jumps......... And had the same fear of equipment failure... one thing that helped me was since all my jumps were on chutes I packed(Navy (PR) Parachute rigger). I always packed it to perfection, but still there was this dought until I started getting in sport jumping with people like the Golden Knights on weekends and in competitions. After watching these people stuff crap into their para-packs and go for another jump, I finally got over the fear.

The same with our bikes, it's something we have to learn. As I was saying earlier "Start out going into a turn slow, and and pick up the pace though the turn at your pace till you feel comfortable". Read some books on what makes the bike handle well, and remember these books are written by pro's.

I still have a strong awareness of the surface of puplic roads, due to the crap (oil/sand/etc.). I'll always have chicken strips unless I ride on a track.
#30

[image: View Post]Monk, on 22 January 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:

I have over a grand in jumps......... And had the same fear of equipment failure... one thing that helped me was since all my jumps were on chutes I packed(Navy (PR) Parachute rigger). I always packed it to perfection, but still there was this dought until I started getting in sport jumping with people like the Golden Knights on weekends and in competitions. After watching these people stuff crap into their para-packs and go for another jump, I finally got over the fear.

The same with our bikes, it's something we have to learn. As I was saying earlier "Start out going into a turn slow, and and pick up the pace though the turn at your pace till you feel comfortable". Read some books on what makes the bike handle well, and remember these books are written by pro's.

I still have a strong awareness of the surface of puplic roads, due to the crap (oil/sand/etc.). I'll always have chicken strips unless I ride on a track.


OK... that is good to hear. Not that you still have fears, but that I ain't alone hehe. I got a funny feeling that this will be my biggest hurdle to jump over. Finding that comfort zone to know where and how and when.... I am contemplating getting another bike (very used of course) just for this kind of thing. (in case something bad does happen)
#31
We don't have a lot of twisty roads here in Alberta. Every summer I take a trip to Oregon, Washington, Idaho and California - lots of good roads. Year by year I get more practise and more confident. I think it comes with lots of road miles. Track days or training courses really help too, but I think just gradually finding out what your bike, and you, are capable of is the key.

Don't push too early. There are no medals or awards for getting farther over on your tires too soon. Slow and easy, you'll get it!
#32
Lost of traction thoughts will not calm nor comfort you... it may develope into a barrier to overcome... the
thoughts that should busy a riders mind are...

I get my body comfortable to one side of the bike before the turn...
and comfortable means that I will not move it...

I clamp my outside knee into the dent of the tank and point my inside
knee out... also the balls of my feet rest at the end of the peg...

I adjust my entrance speed low enough by just rolling off throttle
(no brakes) so I'm able to start rolling on throttle the instant I apply
a counter steering input...

Once I begin to rolling on the throttle I roll it on evenly and smoothly
and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn...

My goal is not to go quick for quick sake... I want to establish 40/60
weight bias... I want to have my suspension working in the sweet
range... I want my bike to hold it's line... I want my bike stable as
possible so I will be smooth and not trigger my survival reaction to
chop the throttle...


Tools to build ones Confidence
Hitting a plateau is a barrier to overcome... it means your confidence
is not up and you kept riding at the same lame pace...

First signs to watch for are your vision... when it starts to narrow
and hunt frantically for your awareness... this is the first signs
that a mistake is about to happen... you must check that by
concentrating on pushing your field of vision back to wide... only
with wide vision will you enough space to stay calm and begin make
accurate decisions that will definitely boost confidence...


Next is your breathing... monitor for first signs of panicky short and
rapid rates and then concentrate on calming it down with long slow
breaths...

Finally busy your thoughts with the 3 basic tools of cornering more
effectively... because speed is not your goal... cornering like a pro
is... ask yourself these questions:

1 How quickly do I steer the bike???
2 How much lean angle do I use???
3 Where do I begin my turn in point???

And finally grade your performance after each corner and assign a
number from 1 to 100... honest self evaluation is the key to breaking
barriers...

1 did I rolling off the gas to early???

2 did i tighten on the bars???

3 did I narrow my vision???

4 did I fix my attention too long on something???

5 did I steer too early or not quick enough???

6 did I brake when it wasn't necessary???

When you start receiving grades in the 75% range that should trigger a
real world rise in your confidence level to push more...
#33

[image: View Post]Infidel, on 22 January 2011 - 12:50 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Monk, on 22 January 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:

I have over a grand in jumps......... And had the same fear of equipment failure... one thing that helped me was since all my jumps were on chutes I packed(Navy (PR) Parachute rigger). I always packed it to perfection, but still there was this dought until I started getting in sport jumping with people like the Golden Knights on weekends and in competitions. After watching these people stuff crap into their para-packs and go for another jump, I finally got over the fear.

The same with our bikes, it's something we have to learn. As I was saying earlier "Start out going into a turn slow, and and pick up the pace though the turn at your pace till you feel comfortable". Read some books on what makes the bike handle well, and remember these books are written by pro's.

I still have a strong awareness of the surface of puplic roads, due to the crap (oil/sand/etc.). I'll always have chicken strips unless I ride on a track.


OK... that is good to hear. Not that you still have fears, but that I ain't alone hehe. I got a funny feeling that this will be my biggest hurdle to jump over. Finding that comfort zone to know where and how and when.... I am contemplating getting another bike (very used of course) just for this kind of thing. (in case something bad does happen)


Actually I would have to say that I still have a fear of traction, but it's controled by "My pace".

Nick Ienatsch: The Pace
A year after I joined the Motorcyclist staff in 1984, Mitch Boehm was hired. Six months later, The Pace came into being, and we perfected it during the next few months of road testing and weekend fun rides. Now The Pace is part of my life--and a part of the Sunday-morning riding group I frequent. The Pace is a street technique that not only keeps street riders alive, but thoroughly entertained as well.

The Pace
The Pace focuses on bike control and de-emphasizes outright speed. Full-throttle acceleration and last minute braking aren't part of the program, effectively eliminating the two most common single-bike accident scenarios in sport riding. Cornering momentum is the name of the game, stressing strong, forceful inputs at the handlebar to place the bike correctly at the entrance of the turn and get it flicked in with little wasted time and distance. Since the throttle wasn't slammed open at the exit of the last corner, the next corner doesn't require much, if any, braking. It isn't uncommon to ride with our group and not see a brake light flash all morning.

If the brakes are required, the front lever gets squeezed smoothly, quickly and with a good deal of force to set entrance speed with minimum time. Running in on the brakes is tantamount to running off the road, a confession that you're pushing too hard and not getting your entrance speed set early enough because you stayed on the gas too long. Running The Pace decreases your reliance on the throttle and brakes, the two easiest controls to abuse, and hones your ability to judge cornering speed, which is the most thrilling aspect of performance street riding.

Your Lane Is Your Limit
Crossing the centerline at any time except during a passing maneuver is intolerable, another sign that you're pushing too hard to keep up. Even when you have a clean line of sight through a left-hand kink, stay to the right of the centerline. Staying on the right side of the centerline is much more challenging than simply straightening every slight corner, and when the whole group is committed to this intelligent practice, the temptation to cheat is eliminated through peer pressure and logic. Though street riding shouldn't be described in racing terms, you can think of your lane as the racetrack. Leaving your lane is tantamount to a crash.

Exact bike control has you using every inch of your lane if the circumstances permit it. In corners with a clear line of sight and no oncoming traffic, enter at the far outside of the corner, turn the bike relatively late in the corner to get a late apex at the far inside of your lane and accelerate out, just brushing the far outside of your lane as your bike stands up.

Steer your bike forcefully but smoothly to minimize the transition time; don't hammer it down because the chassis will bobble slightly as it settles, possibly carrying you off line. Since you haven't charged in on the brakes, you can get the throttle on early, before the apex, which balances and settles your bike for the drive out.

More often than not, circumstances do not permit the full use of your lane from yellow line to white line and back again. Blind corners, oncoming traffic and gravel on the road are a few criteria that dictate a more conservative approach, so leave yourself a three- or four-foot margin for error, especially at the left side of the lane where errant oncoming traffic could prove fatal. Simply narrow your entrance on a blind right-hander and move your apex into your lane three feet on blind left turns in order to stay free of unseen oncoming traffic hogging the centerline. Because you're running at The Pace and not flat out, your controlled entrances offer additional time to deal with unexpected gravel or other debris in your lane; the outside wheel track is usually the cleanest through a dirty corner since a car weights its outside tires most, scrubbing more dirt off the pavement in the process, so aim for that line.

A Good Leader, Willing Followers
The street is not a racing environment, and it takes humility, self assurance and self control to keep it that way. The leader sets the pace and monitors his mirrors for signs of raggedness in the ranks that follow, such as tucking in on straights, crossing over the yellow line and hanging off the motorcycle in corners. If the leader pulls away, he simply slows his straightaway speed slightly but continues to enjoy the corners, thus closing the ranks but missing none of the fun. The small group of three or four riders I ride with is so harmonious that the pace is identical no matter who's leading. The lead shifts occasionally with a quick hand sign, but there's never a pass for the lead with an ego on the sleeve. Make no mistake, the riding is spirited and quick--in the corners. Anyone with a right arm can hammer down the straights; it's the proficiency in the corners that makes The Pace come alive.

Following distances are relatively lengthy, with the straight-aways---taken at more moderate speeds--the perfect opportunity to adjust the gaps. Keeping a good distance serves several purposes, besides being safer. Rock chips are minimized and the highway patrol won't suspect a race is in progress. The Pace's style of not hanging off in corners also reduces the appearance of pushing too hard and adds a degree of maturity and sensibility in the eyes of the public and the law. There's a definite challenge to cornering quickly while sitting sedately on your bike.

New rider indoctrination takes some time because The Pace develops very high cornering speeds and newcomers want to hammer the throttle on exits to make up for what they lose at the entrances. Our group slows drastically when a new rider joins the ranks because our technique of moderate straightaway speeds and no brakes can suck the unaware into a corner too fast, creating the most common single-bike accident. With a new rider learning The Pace behind you, tap your brake lightly well before the turn to alert him and make sure he understands there's no pressure to stay with the group.

There's plenty of ongoing communication during The Pace. A foot off the peg indicates debris on the road, and all slowing or turning intentions are signaled in advance with the left hand and arm. Turn signals are used for direction changes and passing, with a wave of the left hand to thank the cars that move right and make it easy for the motorcyclists to get past. Since you don't have a death grip on the handlebar, you left hand is also free to wave to oncoming riders, a fading courtesy that we'd like to see return. If you're getting the idea The Pace is a relaxing, noncompetitive way to ride with a group, you are right.

Relax and Flick it
I'd rather spend a Sunday in the mountains riding at The Pace than a Sunday at the racetrack, it is that enjoyable. Countersteering is the name of the game, a smooth forceful steering input at the handlebar relayed to the tires contact patches through a rigid sport-bike frame. Riding at The Pace is certainly what the bike manufacturers had in mind when sport bikes evolved to the street.

But the machine isn't the most important aspect of running The Pace because you can do it on anything capable of getting through a corner. Attitude is The Pace's most important aspect; realizing the friend ahead of you isn't a competitor, respecting his right to lead the group occasionally and giving him credit for his riding skills. You must have the maturity to limit your straightaway speeds to allow the group to stay in touch and the sense to realize that racetrack tactics such as late braking and full throttle runs to redline will alienate the public and police and possibly introduce you to the unforgiving laws of gravity. When the group arrives at the destination after running The Pace, no one feels outgunned or is left with the feeling he must prove himself on the return run. If you've got something to prove, get on a racetrack.

The racetrack measures your speed with a stopwatch and direct competition, welcoming your aggression and gritty resolve to be the best. Performance street riding's only yardstick is the amount of enjoyment gained, not lap times, finishing position or competitors beaten. The differences are huge but not always remembered by riders who haven't discovered The Pace's cornering pureness and group involvement. Hammer on the racetrack. Pace yourself on the street.

The Street is not the Track; Its a Place to Pace
Two weeks go a rider died when he and his bike tumbled off a cliff paralleling our favorite road. No gravel in the lane, no oncoming car pushing him wide, no ice. The guy screwed up. Rider error. Too much enthusiasm with too little skill, and this fatality wasn't the first on this road this year. As with most single-bike accidents, the rider entered the corner at a speed his brain told him was too fast, stood the bike up and nailed the rear brake. Goodbye.

On the racetrack the rider would have tumbled into the hay bales, visited the ambulance for a strip of gauze and headed back to the pits to straighten his handlebars and think about his mistake. But let's get one thing perfectly clear: the street is not the racetrack. Using it as such will shorten your riding career and keep you from discovering the Pace. The Pace is far from street racing - and a lot more fun.

The Pace places the motorcycle in its proper role as the controlled vehicle, not the controlling vehicle. Too many riders of sport bikes become baggage when the throttle gets twisted - the ensuing speed is so overwhelming they are carried along in the rush. The Pace ignores outright speed and can be as much fun on a Ninja 250 as on a ZX-11, emphasizing rider skill over right-wrist bravado. A fool can twist the grip, but a fool has no idea how to stop or turn. Learning to stop will save your life; learning to turn will enrich it. What feels better than banking a motorcycle over into a corner?

The mechanics of turning a motorcycle involve pushing and/or pulling on the handlebars; while this isn't new information for most sport riders, realize that the force at the handlebar affects the motorcycle's rate of turn-in. Shove hard on the bars, and the bike snaps over; gently push the bars, and the bike lazily banks in. Different corners require different techniques, but as you begin to think about lines, late entrances and late apexes, turning your bike at the exact moment and reaching he precise lean angle will require firm, forceful inputs ant the handlebars. If you take less time to turn your motorcycle, you can use that time to brake more effectively or run deeper into the corner, affording yourself more time to judge the corner and a better look at any hidden surprises. It's important to look as far into the corner as possible and remember the adage, "You go where you look."

Don't Rush
The number-one survival skill, after mastering emergency braking, is setting your corner-entrance speed early, or as Kenny Roberts says, "Slow in, fast out." Street riders may get away with rushing into 99 out of 100 corners, but that last one will have gravel, mud or a trespassing car. Setting entrance speed early will allow you to adjust your speed and cornering line, giving you every opportunity to handle the surprise.

We've all rushed into a corner too fast and experienced not just the terror but the lack of control when trying to herd the bike into the bend. If you're fighting the brakes and trying to turn the bike, any surprise will be impossible to deal with. Setting your entrance speed early and looking into the corner allows you to determine what type of corner you're facing. Does the radius decrease? Is the turn off-camber? Is there an embankment that may have contributed some dirt to the corner?

Racers talk constantly about late braking, yet that technique is used only to pass for position during a race, not to turn a quicker lap time. Hard braking blurs the ability to judge cornering speed accurately, and most racers who rely too heavily on the brakes find themselves passed at the corner exits because they scrubbed off too much cornering speed. Additionally, braking late often forces you to trail the brakes or turn the motorcycle while still braking. While light trail braking is an excellent and useful technique to master, understand that your front tire has only a certain amount of traction to give. If you use a majority of the front tire's traction for braking and then ask it to provide maximum cornering traction as well, a typical low-side crash will result. Also consider that your motorcycle won't steer as well with the fork fully compressed under braking. If you're constantly fighting the motorcycle while turning, it may be because you're braking too far into the corner. All these problems can be eliminated by setting your entrance speed early, an important component of running the Pace.

Since you aren't hammering the brakes at every corner entrance, your enjoyment of pure cornering will increase tremendously. You'll relish the feeling of snapping your bike into the corner and opening the throttle as early as possible. Racers talk about getting the drive started, and that's just as important on the street. Notice how the motorcycle settles down and simply works better when the throttle is open? Use a smooth, light touch on the throttle and try to get the bike driving as soon as possible in the corner, even before the apex, the tightest point of the corner. If you find yourself on the throttle ridiculously early, it's an indication you can increase your entrance speed slightly be releasing the brakes earlier.

As you sweep past the apex, you can begin to stand the bike up out of the corner. This is best done by smoothly accelerating, which will help stand the bike up. As the rear tire comes off full lean, it puts more rubber on the road, and the forces previously used for cornering traction can be converted to acceleration traction. The throttle can be rolled open as the bike stands up.

This magazine won't tell you how fast is safe; we will tell you how to go fast safely. How fast you go is your decision, but it's one that requires reflection and commitment. High speed on an empty four-lane freeway is against the law, but it's fairly safe. Fifty-five miles per hour in a canyon may be legal, but it may also be dangerous. Get together with your friends and talk about speed. Set a reasonable maximum and stick to it. Done right, the Pace is addicting without high straightaway speeds.

The group I ride with couldn't care less about outright speed between corners; any gomer can twist a throttle. If you routinely go 100 mph, we hope you routinely practice emergency stops from that speed. Keep in mind outright speed will earn a ticket that is tough to fight and painful to pay; cruising the easy straight stuff doesn't attract as much attention from the authorities and sets your speed perfectly for the next sweeper.

Group Mentality
Straights are the time to reset the ranks. The leader needs to set a pace that won't bunch up the followers, especially while leaving a stop sign or passing a car on a two-lane road. The leader must use the throttle hard to get around the car and give the rest of the group room to make the pass, yet he or she can't speed blindly along and earn a ticket for the whole group. With sane speeds on the straights, the gaps can be adjusted easily; the bikes should be spaced about two seconds apart for maximum visibility of surface hazards.

It's the group aspect of the Pace I enjoy most, watching the bikes in front of me click into a corner like a row of dominoes, or looking in my mirror as my friends slip through the same set of corners I just emerged from.

Because there's a leader and a set of rules to follow, the competitive aspect of sport riding is eliminated and that removes a tremendous amount of pressure from a young rider's ego - or even an old rider's ego. We've all felt the tug of racing while riding with friends or strangers, but the Pace takes that away and saves it for where it belongs: the racetrack. The racetrack is where you prove your speed and take chances to best your friends and rivals.

I've spend a considerable amount of time writing about the Pace (see Motorcyclist, Nov. '91) for several reasons, not the least of which being the fun I've had researching it (continuous and ongoing). But I have motivations that aren't so fun. I got scared a few years ago when Senator Danforth decided to save us from ourselves by trying to ban superbikes, soon followed by insurance companies blacklisting a variety of sport bikes. I've seen Mulholland Highway shut down because riders insisted on racing (and crashing) over a short section of it. I've seen heavy police patrols on roads that riders insist on throwing themselves off of. I've heard the term "murder-cycles" a dozen times too many. When we consider the abilities of a modern sport bike, it becomes clear that rider techniques is sorely lacking.

The Pace emphasizes intelligent, rational riding techniques that ignore racetrack heroics without sacrificing fun. The skills needed to excel on the racetrack make up the basic precepts of the Pace, excluding the mind-numbing speeds and leaving the substantially larger margin for error needed to allow for unknowns and immovable objects. Our sport faces unwanted legislation from outsiders, but a bit of throttle management from within will guarantee our future.

The Pace Principles
Set cornering speed early. Blow the entrance and you'll never recover. Look down the road Maintaining a high visual horizon will reduce perceived speed and help you avoid panic situations.
Steer the bike quickly. There's a reason Wayne Rainey works out - turning a fast-moving motorcycle takes muscle.
Use your brakes smoothly but firmly Get on and then off the brakes; don't drag 'em.Get the throttle on early Starting the drive settles the chassis, especially through a bumpy corner.
Never cross the centerline except to pass Crossing the centerline in a corner is an instant ticket and an admittance that you can't really steer your bike. In racing terms, your lane is your course; staying right of the line adds a significant challenge to most roads and is mandatory for sport riding's future.
Don't crowd the centerline Always expect an oncoming car with two wheels in your lane.
Don't hang off in the corners or tuck in on the straights Sitting sedately on the bike looks safer and reduces unwanted attention. It also provides a built-in safety margin.
When leading, ride for the group. Good verbal communication is augmented with hand signals and turn signals; change direction and speed smoothly.
When following, ride with the group If you can't follow a leader, don't expect anyone to follow you when you're setting the pace.
-Nick Ienatsch Sport Rider Magazine June 1993-
#34
BusyLittleShop .... Makes a great read also, and brought to mind something that helped me (from Keith Code's class).... Don't put too many fingers on the front brake lever ....... work with two or one finger..... If you feel that you need a little more leverage slide your hand closer to the end of the bar/grip.... Very hard to over brake with one finger,But do-able.
#35
Had a blast today.. weather was cold so was a slow ride. Went back and did some toying around at a even to below speed limit pace. Couldn't do the body positioning all that well due to reduced speed but really had fun attempting the proper approaches to turns and head positioning. lol Truth be told, I actually almost ran off the road a few times doing the "Look where you want to go rather where you are going" bit. I always did that before, but never really paid it no mind until today.

Looking at my schedule I might be free in May for the TexMax ride. Won't know for sure until the end of next month but I may take a hike out there and see how the pros do it. :D
#36
you almost went off the road going UNDER the speed limit??
oh boy..
get your bicycle..
get proper tire pressure..maker sure your brakes works.. grab your helmet and GO RIDE..
lean through the corners.. put a few miles going around the block or something.. corners.. lots of them.. then get on your motorcycle and do the same thing.. you will wonder why your freaking out over cornering because the motorcycle has a lot more traction than a bicycle.

i have to say though.. if you have the money.. park your vfr.. and get a rebel 250 .. and put a 1000 miles on the thing.. really.. ride in the rain on the rebel. then get on your vfr.. :fing02:
#37
As many others have said allready, practice practice practice. I have read both of the Twist books and am halfway through Total Control now. All books contain a wealth of information and will greatly help you understand what you're doing wrong and how to correct it. Both Code and Parks will tell you that FEAR is NATURAL. Parks also tells you that it's a GOOD thing and why (keeps you safe). I highly reccomend buying, borrowing, or somehow aquiring these books and reading them, slowly, maybe twice. DO the excersizes they tell you to do, BE one with your machine. It all comes in time, you have to work through your own barriers in your own time. Keep it up man, you'll get there!!!
#38

[image: View Post]Infidel, on 22 January 2011 - 10:44 AM, said:

[image: View Post]spud786, on 22 January 2011 - 01:04 AM, said:

My question is: How did get over the hump of trusting your leans? Trusting that your tires would not slide? Learning at what speed you can take an approach and feel comfortable about it?

Can you feel the traction level?

Some people cant, but it does vary alot depending on condition. Like I went out the other day performance rain riding in 39 degree weather, very poor traction conditions.


Not really. To be honest, I had no faith in my ability to keep the bike upright. I mean, I was on a public road and I really have never been a "Break the Law - Speeding" type of guy. Im 41 and never have had a moving or parking violation to date. :D (Yes, goody two shoes in the Driving World lol) After some extensive reading on this site last night, I have come to realize it is more than just leaning and stuff. A lot of it has to do with faith. Faith in your bike and faith in your skills. Well, I know my skills will and can improve in time. But, faith in the bike is another thing... and that was kind of my fear in this thread. I wanted to see if someone had the same issue with i did. For example. I was Airborne in the Army. I had NO FEAR of heights. Loved it.. but to this day everytime I jumped I had no idea what kind of Rig was going to happen. Roll, Streamer, ect. My fear lies in equipment failure fear more than riding skill failure.


/salute you all for your tips and assistance.


Riding by faith is not really my thing, Road Traction does vary. If a had a nickle every time some rider has hit the same corner 20 times and crashed his A$$ off the next time, Id be rich.

Tires are an important part too, but even the best tires can easliy falter in bad conditions, if pushed. Traction sense is really the first step IMO. Without it your are blindly riding by faith.
#39

[image: View Post]Infidel, on 21 January 2011 - 08:27 PM, said:


My question is: How did get over the hump of trusting your leans? Trusting that your tires would not slide? Learning at what speed you can take an approach and feel comfortable about it?

Thanks in advance.


I found a Riding school that offered quality instruction (Not all track day groups are the same) and that was not focused on going fast... smooth throttle smooth brakes.
#40
when I went to my WERA race school in 1986 my instructor was asked about the fear factor. He said "If you are leaned all the way over, you have less distance to fall to the ground" seems strange, but it is kinda comforting.

There was a good point earlier about bad habits. I have them all. My form stinks and I prolly will never correct it. I learned to corner on inapropriate heavy bikes with skinny wheels and I was instructed in the fashion of the day that was brake, hang way off, wrestle that fooker into the turn, then whap onn the throttle. I cant shake the bad habits and this is one of the main reasons I will never be really fast.

It was cool to get the photos from 129, but then it was a drag to see just how bad my form was:
[image: Posted Image]
#41

[image: View Post]gll429, on 22 January 2011 - 06:35 PM, said:

you almost went off the road going UNDER the speed limit??
oh boy..
get your bicycle..
get proper tire pressure..maker sure your brakes works.. grab your helmet and GO RIDE..
lean through the corners.. put a few miles going around the block or something.. corners.. lots of them.. then get on your motorcycle and do the same thing.. you will wonder why your freaking out over cornering because the motorcycle has a lot more traction than a bicycle.

i have to say though.. if you have the money.. park your vfr.. and get a rebel 250 .. and put a 1000 miles on the thing.. really.. ride in the rain on the rebel. then get on your vfr.. :fing02:


Haha... I guess that does sound kind of bad. To save some pride from looking like an even bigger jackass than I already do in this thread, let me try and put it a tad easier to understand.

There are a few really sharp turns. Like I said, I basically did the speed limit. If memory serves, the yellow sign said 25 was the suggested speed limit through this particular turn section.

I came with the first leg going left then right with a really sharp left followed but a bit of straight. (if you can picture that)

Normally, I would just slow way down and ride through each particular turn. But as I was going slow, I was using different looks to judge the turn. There was a time or two when I looked a tad too far ahead and the bike went that direction. As it was, I was in the middle of a section that where I was looking kind of had me pointed where I really shouldn't have been.

If any of that makes sense. Anyway... one day i will look back at all this and laugh at my mistakes. Right now, I am just taking in what everyone is offering and applying it safely as I can until i can afford a day or two of my time away from work and family to do the right thing and go to a track.
#42

[image: View Post]timmythecop, on 22 January 2011 - 09:17 PM, said:

It was cool to get the photos from 129, but then it was a drag to see just how bad my form was:
[image: Posted Image]


You guys and your Hardbag leans haha.
#43

[image: View Post]WERA910, on 21 January 2011 - 09:46 PM, said:

I've heard there are two kinds of racers... the first is intrepid, and carefully increases his speed until he is able to feel the bike is at his limits and learns in that way.

Then, there's the other kind... goes out on the track and goes really fast... and falls off. And says, "That's too fast". Then, goes back out and goes a little slower and falls off, and says, "That's still too fast"..


I've been the latter for a long time and I've got the scars to prove it. Now I'm the former. It's about taking it easy and working your way towards smoothness. Don't worry about dragging knees and racing on the twisties - save that for the track. Ride at your pace and you'll eventually feel more comfortable. Read some books (twist of the wrist and total control, at least) to know what good technique is and practice. But I can't stress enough how important I think it is to take it easy and not get caught up in the speed aspect of riding. I see it all the time on the mountains. Some of these guys treat the mountain like a racetrack and that's why there are always crashes. Most of the crashes are unnecessary and not due to gravel, oil, or an oncoming car. Complete rider error.

Practice being smooth! Smooth on the brakes, smooth on the turn, and smooth on throttle.
#44
Smooth is fast. Read Nick Ienatsch's Sport Riding Techiques (author of "The Pace"). Nick saved my cookies 3 weeks ago. I was practicing proper technique when about 45 minutes into the ride I enthusiastically accelerated out of an uphill right hander...I love that feeling. I saw the stop ahead warning sign before I crested the hill @ around 70 mph. What I didn't expect was the sharp left prior to the stop sign. I braked smoothly and hard, weighted my inside peg, pressed my outside knee into the tank, smoothly came off the brakes as I quickly counter-steered trading braking traction for cornering traction. For a split second I fixated on the skid marks right in front of me leading ino the mangled guard rail, I forced my eyes away and looked where I wanted to go... out of the turn. Just before my tires hit the mud and gravel next to the guard rail I hung off further and stood the bike up a little to keep the bike from sliding broadside into the guard rail. I rolled past the second bend in the guard rail with the bent post with about 18" - 24" between my plastic and the state of TN's metal. I stopped about 40' - 50' further down, before the stop sign, to assess my situation. Oddly, I was calm. No racing heartbeat, snatchy breathing, or sweaty palms. I decided to continue on my ride route and made a right at the stop sign. About 15 miles later I decided to loop back, ride back over the same road, evaluate my mistake, and take the picture.
[image: Posted Image]
Thank you Nick Ienatsch for your riding techniques & thank you God for making him right.

I am idiot for blindly going too hot over a crest on an unfamiliar road... Nick I. is a genius

Edit: Corrected Nick I.'s book title to "Sport Riding Techniques".
#45
I decided to loop back, ride back over the same road, evaluate my mistake, and take the picture.
[image: Posted Image]
Thank you Nick Ienatsch for your riding techniques & thank you God for making him right.


THat reminds me, I had a similar incident, but I was running about 50 mph and the road uturned right into a stop sign(that quick), damdess thing you ever saw, Making a tight corner and hard braking for a stop sign, defitely catches your attention.
#46
Again do a Riding School. This is not a shameless plug really, just what you need to be looking for in a riding school. Listen to the segment between the 11:00 and 12:00 minute marks. And ignor the part about the police we train the Massachusetts and NH motorcycle police.
#47

[image: View Post]Rush2112, on 23 January 2011 - 03:21 AM, said:

Smooth is fast. Read Nick Ienatsch's Sport Bike Riding Techiques (author of "The Pace"). Nick saved my cookies 3 weeks ago. I was practicing proper technique when about 45 minutes into the ride I enthusiastically accelerated out of an uphill right hander...I love that feeling. I saw the stop ahead warning sign before I crested the hill @ around 70 mph. What I didn't expect was the sharp left prior to the stop sign. I braked smoothly and hard, weighted my inside peg, pressed my outside knee into the tank, smoothly came off the brakes as I quickly counter-steered trading braking traction for cornering traction. For a split second I fixated on the skid marks right in front of me leading ino the mangled guard rail, I forced my eyes away and looked where I wanted to go... out of the turn. Just before my tires hit the mud and gravel next to the guard rail I hung off further and stood the bike up a little to keep the bike from sliding broadside into the guard rail. I rolled past the second bend in the guard rail with the bent post with about 18" - 24" between my plastic and the state of TN's metal. I stopped about 40' - 50' further down, before the stop sign, to assess my situation. Oddly, I was calm. No racing heartbeat, snatchy breathing, or sweaty palms. I decided to continue on my ride route and made a right at the stop sign. About 15 miles later I decided to loop back, ride back over the same road, evaluate my mistake, and take the picture.
[image: Posted Image]
Thank you Nick Ienatsch for your riding techniques & thank you God for making him right.

I am idiot for blindly going too hot over a crest on an unfamiliar road... Nick I. is a genius


Wow... glad to see you made it through that one ok.
#48
The track or a school is the safest place to test the limits and improve skills, but short of that I think the Single Biggest factor in confidence building is your Vision!
Where you look, meaning looking thru a turn as far forward of a vision as possible. This Slows down the inputs to the brain drastically vs looking right in front of the bike (very common with newer riders).
Most newer riders, even long time riders tend to focus their vision a short distance in front of the bike and the closer to the front of the bike the focus is the more overload the riders brain has to process in each turn. With this type of short focus a rider will Never advance their skill or speed or confidence period.
The further out the rider can focus their vision the slower the inputs are hitting the brain. This allows your brain to develop the skills to deal with what's next meaning your brain is already thinking about the next phase of the turn vs the one your currently in.
:fing02:

BTW a stock VFR with stock tires is far more capable than most of us are, it's only the wrong inputs from us that screw that up!
#49
Cloverleafs will help, but you'll be the fastest guy on Right turns and terrible at left ones! :goofy:

But seriously, I took the Lee Parks course (and read the book) which helped a lot.

However, I now am fully aware that I can lean the bike farther than I am willing to do so, and am trying to have the FAITH to do so, but for some reason I just start to back off.

But it is REALLY hard. I've seen pictures of myself when I think I'm fully leaned over and I'm nowhere near it. If you figure out a magical way to get over the fear of leaning too far, let me know. For now I will just keep practicing and try to take a track day.

I also know that this is a SAFETY ISSUE. If, God forbid, I ever misjudge a turn and realize I am taking it too fast, or that a green minivan is coming in my lane, well the without faith and the ability to lean the bike to a fraction of it's potential my response will be to grab a handful of front brakes and end up sliding my beautiful 2003 VFR with RWB bodywork into the minivan and ruining my TMAC. Hypothetically of course.

But if you trust your bike, and you do get yourself into the situation, instead of panicking you can just lean the bike a little more and easily make the turn.

DISCLAIMER: 1. It obviously would be best never to get into a situation where you are in over your head. $H!T happens, but it is best to avoid it.
2. Work on technique. If your bodyweight is positioned wrong, it doesn't matter how far your bike is leaned over. In fact, with proper technique, you'll need to lean the bike LESS, leaving more room to compensate if you do misjudge.
#50

[image: View Post]Infidel, on 22 January 2011 - 04:31 PM, said:

Couldn't do the body positioning all that well due to reduced speed but really had fun attempting the proper approaches to turns and head positioning. lol Truth be told, I actually almost ran off the road a few times doing the "Look where you want to go rather where you are going" bit. I always did that before, but never really paid it no mind until today.


It seems that you're focusing on too much at once based on this statement. The 1st thing you should be comfortable with is looking where you want to go. The basic MSF - look, lean and roll. A trip to the mountains for some nice slow riding on twisty roads is the best place to work on this. For body position, keep your butt flat in the seat and just lean into the turns with your upper body.

Keep it simple and build slowly.
#51

[image: View Post]gradus, on 23 January 2011 - 06:07 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Infidel, on 22 January 2011 - 04:31 PM, said:

Couldn't do the body positioning all that well due to reduced speed but really had fun attempting the proper approaches to turns and head positioning. lol Truth be told, I actually almost ran off the road a few times doing the "Look where you want to go rather where you are going" bit. I always did that before, but never really paid it no mind until today.


It seems that you're focusing on too much at once based on this statement. The 1st thing you should be comfortable with is looking where you want to go. The basic MSF - look, lean and roll. A trip to the mountains for some nice slow riding on twisty roads is the best place to work on this. For body position, keep your butt flat in the seat and just lean into the turns with your upper body.

Keep it simple and build slowly.


To add on to what Gradus said .... I see people all the time that can run the s's and never move their butts on the seat, and there're plenty that don't even lean their upper body. and they all can take the turns "about" as fast as the ones that do slide on the seat. I just fell more in control when I lean inside, it makes the input to the steering less of an effort.
#52
Track days, track schools (no dogs, kids, driveways or cars coming the other way) will definitely help you discover the limits of adhesion. Keith Code's books and California Superbike School are both excellent as previously mentioned. Of course, there are others that are good, too, but I can testify to the worthiness of Code's career endeavors. Oh, and beware the Oil Monster, it puts everything else out the window...O.K., just saying.
#53
Everyone works on confidence... my confidence soared after reading and
applying Twist of Wrist II... you'll learn that your thoughts should
be occupied with the technical side of riding and not occupied the
confidence robbing scary parts... bad thoughts are a barriers to over
come... bad thoughts foster panic... just as you look to where you
wish to go... your mind must think what you want from the motorcycles
performance envelope...

Controlling bad thoughts requires that you ignore your minds
overriding thoughts of imminent catastrophe which is a lot easier said
than done... Riding with confidence is a mind game and only comes from
proper riding instruction and practice...
End of thread · 53 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 30 Jan 2011