Premium fuel

Ok is not the topic you might think, more of a heads up.


Sitting Saturday night talking with a buddy of mine I have not seen in a few years. Who works for a place that builds gas pumps. He asked me if I use premium fuel in my bike.

Told him no because I don't see a difference with it. He tells me good, because those gas pumps that have a single hose and you just select the fuel grade you want can hold up to 5-7 liters of whatever the last guy got within the pump's inter-workings.

So next time you stop for gas think about how much of that tank is really premium.

So you should either look for a pump with more than one hose or fill up behind your riding buddy and let him get a half a tank of the cheap stuff.

I only run regular, so I have a better chance of getting the good stufff for free! :laughing6-hehe:

5 to 7 litres?

Thats more than a gallon. I used to ride around and find who last filled with premium,, you can tell by the price per gal on the diplay.

I always thought it was a quart at the most, The VFR really doesnt need premium for performance, But Im alittle concerned on the quality of pump fuels these days.

Premium fuel can actually be worse than regular because octane numbers get boosted by ethanol.
Premium can have a higher percentage of ethanol in it and ethanol=CRAP.
Not much reason to worry as just spent $150 at the pump, gas at $3.15/gallon so its not like i am going to say OK I want more crap in my gas=ethanol and need to spend $200 to get it.

He's right, because the switching valves would be on the suction of the pump, so the entire pump/piping/internal filter and hose are full of whatever was dispensed last.

Worse if the pumps are of the long overhead hose types.

My VFR does not pre-detonate.
Why on earth would I put premium gas in with the only measureable result being a lighter wallet?

The 1200's require premium gas though! I have filled up with low octane out of habit and not noticed it, but then again I live at high altitude so its not such a big deal. But I do use premium on the veefalo just cause the manual says too. The 5th and 6th gen bikes do not require premium.

Man, I feel like a tard. Well, now I know. Otherwise a good birthday; new clutches in the VFR, now i just gotta figure the newly developed 1500rpm idle after the clutches. Oh well, guess she wants more attention.

At what point are ethanol problems supposed to kick in? My ride has 30,000 on it and has spent its entire life in Iowa and Nebraska. Care to guess what percentage of our fuel has ethanol in it? Everything except regular, and the 89 octane "plus" fuel is always the cheapest. I can't do much about past "damage" so I've quit worrying about it.

[image: View Post]Africord, on 25 January 2011 - 09:52 AM, said:

At what point are ethanol problems supposed to kick in? My ride has 30,000 on it and has spent its entire life in Iowa and Nebraska. Care to guess what percentage of our fuel has ethanol in it? Everything except regular, and the 89 octane "plus" fuel is always the cheapest. I can't do much about past "damage" so I've quit worrying about it.


I thought they were limited to 10% ethanol by federal regulation? That being the case the worse you will suffer is crappy gas mileage and cleaner emissions (in theory anyway). :rolleyes:

I have to put premium in my ST1300...good thing she has a 7.5 gal tank to dilute the low octane stuff I've apparently been putting in. You could also use some Startron in each tank I guess...it's supposed to lessen/negate the effects of ethanol too.

I've heard they want to go to 15% at some point... Don't have data though............ I run an ounce of MMO with mine........

[image: View Post]Monk, on 25 January 2011 - 11:40 AM, said:

I've heard they want to go to 15% at some point... Don't have data though............ I run an ounce of MMO with mine........


http://theenergycoll...ethanol-complex



A good read!!

I did a little test last summer while commuting to work for 2 weeks, I ran 'Plus' 89 octane ethanol mix for 2 weeks: AVG MPG 38ish Then regular old 87 octane regular for 2 weeks and got almost exactly the same mileage. This was all in town driving, taking the same route every day. Just a tidbit.

I guess I am switching back to low grade.

HAS ANYONE STUDIED THE BOOST THAT ARE ON THE MARKET? WHICH ONES WORK< WHICH ARE JUNK?

[image: View Post]flavadave98VFR800FI, on 25 January 2011 - 12:05 PM, said:

I guess I am switching back to low grade.

HAS ANYONE STUDIED THE BOOST THAT ARE ON THE MARKET? WHICH ONES WORK< WHICH ARE JUNK?






http://pure-gas.org/...sp?stateprov=NC did you mean real gas??

Thx..... Dave......... I've always(from some point in time)thought about the single hose thing, but didn't think it was any more than what was left in the hose itself....... As such I try to not use them........ but since it's closer to a gallon, I'll try much harder.

I always thought that most "high compression" engines would do well to run on premium to avoid any chance of detonation.
Now what compression ratio qualifies an engine as "high compression" IIRC, most VFR engines have at least 11:1 compression ratios, higher that what is seen on most car engines. Is that low enough to never worry about any detonation??

Beck
95 VFR

[image: View Post]Beck, on 25 January 2011 - 12:27 PM, said:

I always thought that most "high compression" engines would do well to run on premium to avoid any chance of detonation.
Now what compression ratio qualifies an engine as "high compression" IIRC, most VFR engines have at least 11:1 compression ratios, higher that what is seen on most car engines. Is that low enough to never worry about any detonation??

Beck
95 VFR


Yes. The compression ratio is 11.6:1 on a naturally aspirated engine. Combine that with the fact that Honda gives a minimum octane rating of 87 regular will work just fine.

[image: View Post]silkysmooth, on 25 January 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:

[image: View Post]flavadave98VFR800FI, on 25 January 2011 - 12:05 PM, said:

I guess I am switching back to low grade.

HAS ANYONE STUDIED THE BOOST THAT ARE ON THE MARKET? WHICH ONES WORK< WHICH ARE JUNK?






http://pure-gas.org/...sp?stateprov=NC did you mean real gas??




That is so cool...thanks for that link! I found a station only 45 min away near some good riding roads!

I'm with Seb on this one.
Always used cheapest gas I could find, which means that I can only "win" if some poor shlob gives me over a gallon of his expensive stuff :laughing6-hehe: .

And the reason I put "win in quotation marks is that I'm not sure that higher grade fuel isn't actually doing more harm than good to an engine designed to run on "crap".

[image: View Post]2thdr, on 25 January 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

[image: View Post]silkysmooth, on 25 January 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:

[image: View Post]flavadave98VFR800FI, on 25 January 2011 - 12:05 PM, said:

I guess I am switching back to low grade.

HAS ANYONE STUDIED THE BOOST THAT ARE ON THE MARKET? WHICH ONES WORK< WHICH ARE JUNK?






http://pure-gas.org/...sp?stateprov=NC did you mean real gas??




That is so cool...thanks for that link! I found a station only 45 min away near some good riding roads!



OK this is crap! There is NOTHING in the area of St. Louis. Is there some kind of regulations against having E-free gas inside class A county limits?

[image: Posted Image] I've never come across a pump that has multiple fuels but only a single hose.

On E-10 Bio fuel: Here is a list that shows which model Honda (& others) can safely run on fuel that contains up to 10% ethanol.

There is nothing premium about premium gas except the price. There is no quality difference, it has no more energy. It is slower burning to prevent pre-ignition that is it. It retards the ignition timing which is needed on high compression engines and engines with high carbon buildup. On an engine designed for regular gas premium will have less performance due to the retarded timing.

To further confuse us there are more than one octane rating methods. I had a motorcycle manual require 91 RON octane and the gas pumps in the USA use a different octane rating method, they use an average of the RON method and the MON method. So the 91 RON octane = 87 octane on the pumps in the USA. regular not premium. It is no wonder we are so confused and throwing money away buying the wrong gas.

[image: View Post]DougFromIndy, on 24 January 2011 - 10:16 PM, said:

Premium fuel can actually be worse than regular because octane numbers get boosted by ethanol.
Premium can have a higher percentage of ethanol in it and ethanol=CRAP.
Not much reason to worry as just spent $150 at the pump, gas at $3.15/gallon so its not like i am going to say OK I want more crap in my gas=ethanol and need to spend $200 to get it.

First off i don't use Premium, bike doesn't need it. Doug are you sure there's MORE ethanol in Premium? A buddy who runs premium in his Acura says it has NO ethanol and he gets better mileage because of that. ????

[image: View Post]Bad Boy, on 25 January 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

There is nothing premium about premium gas except the price.

AMEN.

If your bike does not ping, you do not need anything other than regular 87. The higher the octane number, the larger resistance to ignite. No more, no less. And to top it all off, every drop of gasoline in the USA comes in the same pipe as all the rest. When it gets to the brand-name, they put in their additives and a specific colouring. It has always amazed me how people think higher octane gas is better for their motors. Maybe it is a leftover from when lead was being phased out. The leaded gas had a higher octane and lead in gas is better for valve seats in older motors.

There will be some who say their bike runs better on hi-test, but I dont believe it. It is either imagined or coincidental.

There my nothing premium about premium,but I can tell you that my miata @ 13 psi of boost will knock like hades on regular.


However the VFR runs great on regular,right gas for the correct vehicle common sense isn't so common Posted Image

[image: View Post]Bad Boy, on 25 January 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

There is nothing premium about premium gas except the price. There is no quality difference, it has no more energy. It is slower burning to prevent pre-ignition that is it.

Absolutely correct. Higher octane = higher resistance to ignition and slower burn.

[image: View Post]Bad Boy, on 25 January 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

It retards the ignition timing which is needed on high compression engines ...

Ignition timing stays the same, higher compression engines need higher octane to slow the burn. The air/fuel molecules are more compressed and closer together so the flame front moves faster in higher compression engines. If the flame front moves too fast the combustion chamber achieves max pressure too soon prior to the piston reaching TDC on the combustion stroke = Knocking / Pinging. This is why you need high octane gas when you advance the ignition timing over the stock ignition map. Our bike's engines were not designed to maximize HP by running highly advanced ignition timing and run conservative ignition timing maps that is why they run on regular gas.

[image: View Post]Bad Boy, on 25 January 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

On an engine designed for regular gas premium will have less performance due to the retarded timing.

On an engine designed for regular gas running premium will have less performance/mileage due to lower combustion chamber pressures caused by the slower burning flame front completing the burn too far after the piston has passed TDC on the combustion stroke. Also, it may run slightly cooler and have higher hydrocarbons in the exhaust gas for the same reason.

[image: View Post]Bad Boy, on 25 January 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

To further confuse us there are more than one octane rating methods. I had a motorcycle manual require 91 RON octane and the gas pumps in the USA use a different octane rating method, they use an average of the RON method and the MON method. So the 91 RON octane = 87 octane on the pumps in the USA. regular not premium.

US octane ratings are an average. You will see on the pumps an equation something like (RON+MON)/2. The RON, octane used in most other countries, is the Research or laboratory Octane Number (RON) and is always higher than the actual gas at the pump octane. The US gov't decided that this was misleading so they averaged the tested octane with the real world dispensed gas (Minimum Octane Number, MON)and report the average as the grade of gas. The actual octane of the gas you pump is somewhere between the two spec limits. But trust me; the gas companies deliver gas just above the MON and just below the stated pump octane to maximize yields.

[image: View Post]dweese, on 24 January 2011 - 09:44 PM, said:

Ok is not the topic you might think, more of a heads up.


Sitting Saturday night talking with a buddy of mine I have not seen in a few years. Who works for a place that builds gas pumps. He asked me if I use premium fuel in my bike.

Told him no because I don't see a difference with it. He tells me good, because those gas pumps that have a single hose and you just select the fuel grade you want can hold up to 5-7 liters of whatever the last guy got within the pump's inter-workings.

So next time you stop for gas think about how much of that tank is really premium.

So you should either look for a pump with more than one hose or fill up behind your riding buddy and let him get a half a tank of the cheap stuff.


I love topics like this because it's just another little thing not worth worrying about. Get enough of these in my head and sooner or later, there will be nothing at all to worry about..... :laughing6-hehe:

I've always run Diesel! :cool: