I'm going to :beatdeadhorse: and ask what is up with all the clueless dealers out there. The VFR1200 has been in the states for a full year now and still sales folks are spewing misinformation (or else I'm just full of misinformation myself).
Yesterday while going for a ride on my 5G to look at some CRF150F's around the state I passed by a Honda dealer reasonably close to my house that I didn't even realize existed. One thing I quickly noticed as I drove by (no time in my timeline to stop yesterday) was a message on their electronic road sign that stated, "The VFR1200 has arrived!" Wow, I thought it had arrived a LONG time ago. Anyway, I thought later that maybe, just maybe, that what they meant was that the factory Honda VFR1200 DEMO bike had arrived at their shop.
Today I gave them a call to inquire and unfortunately they do not have a demo which is what I expected. The salesman on the phone went on to inform me that the VFR1200 they had in was NOT an ABS model but had the linked brakes. :comp13: I told him that I thought ALL VFR1200's were "ABS Models". He then yelled to another saleman that I could hear on the phone, "Hey Tom, that VFR1200 that we have is not ABS right, only combined braking?" Of course I hear the other guy say he's correct and the bike is non-ABS. Then it gets even better, when he tells me that they have the "automatic model" and that they are all "automatic" on the new VFR. :fing02:
I understand the US economy is slow, but experiences like this help me understand as well what part of the sales issue may be with the bike. The damned people that are trying to sell it don't know shit about the bike. While I'm not one of them, I know many folks that would loose immediate interest in the bike as soon as the guy mentioned it doesn't have ABS which I still don't think is optional.... or am I the idiot? :mellow:
If they would read Honda's website, they would see "Combined Braking with standard ABS."
And they wonder why HONDA is cutting back !!!!!!!!!!!!!
And they wonder why we, sometimes, don't like salespeople. When they know less than you on their own product, it just does not make sense--and how can you trust they're telling the truth about price, warranties and such? :pissed:
Sigh.
C
[image: View Post]PolarBear, on 28 February 2011 - 07:15 PM, said:
And they wonder why we, sometimes, don't like salespeople. When they know less than you on their own product, it just does not make sense--and how can you trust they're telling the truth about price, warranties and such? :pissed:
Sigh.
C
It's not just your dealership. ...and not just motorcycles. I've seen more salespeople, at all kinds of dealerships, that don't know their product than do. When I bought my Toyota FJ, I actually spoke to several sales people at 3 different dealerships, in person, asking what should have been simple questions. I only finally started to speak seriously to the one who gave me the correct answers. He actually didn't know the answer to one question, and unlike the others, who just made up an answer, said "one sec, let me look that up; I should know that!". ...I spent $32K with him! :)
It's not surprising that an internet savvy shopper will know more in-depth about the vehicle they are looking to purchase than the salesperson, after all, we're out there reading reviews, asking questions in forums, etc.. ...but it's sad when such BASIC features aren't known by the people trying to sell it.
...and they probably wonder why they can't move product!
It's a problem of economy (the manufacturer not mandating some kind of training on each new SKU) and getting what you pay for (a lot of sales people are there because they see it as an easy job, and the pay is just ok, but not great.
That said, I've run into several career sales professionals, who take sales very seriously. They pour over the magazines and spec sheets, they even lay out magazines with reviews of their products bookmarked for customers to browse though. They make it a point to know their product inside and out, as well as the competition! ...but it's getting to be a rare breed. Just too much laziness at dealerships these days! :(
The lack of product knowledge seems all too common these days. These two were probably selling shoes with Al Bundy before they got the job at the Honda dealership. All the dealers care is that product moves out the door - not that these guys can provide accurate and useful information (though it would seem that the two are highly related - go figure). For me the sales staff often ends up something to be overcome to make the purchase rather than a source of information. All I want from the salesman when purchasing is the best price - the bikes are the same each dealer and if the salesman is a Gomer, so what - as long as the price is right. But an experience such as this makes me wary of the dealership's service department. If that's their standard for who is out front, how confident can I be about who they have hired to be out back?
I sold Honda motorcycles for a while. Not very good at, as I knew all the specs, and all of the heartaches that came with getting a CBR600F2 as your first motorcycle. After the boss heard me talking a guy out of an F2 (his first bike ever - he had ridden his friends dirt bikes growing up, the classic BS!) and into a used yamaha that made his new wife more comfortable price, and power-wise, I was asked if I wanted to move to parts.
When I had first moved to that town, I got a job at the Porsche dealership that lasted less than an hour. The guy "training" me didn't know jack about the cars. He was a dressed up jackass. Told me to forget the numbers, and features "these people want to buy an image". I was gone. Porsche makes nice cars, this jackass was selling something else, and the cars made him a good bit of money. Image?
I hate hearing guys that don't ride (or even worse, were forced to purchase a motorcycle to get/keep the job the had landed at Gross-Overly Huge-Dumbass Powerports) talk about how nice this bike or that bike is. Makes me queasy. Spewing forth simply regurgitated rag article quotes, opinions based solely on someone else's, as they get ready to go to lunch in their nissan or toyota. I got nothing against cars, we have a couple. Just hate posers. Of any persuasion.
OK, rant complete!
You know what they say, if you want something done right, do it yourself. To me the bottom line is I will do as much homework as possible about the product but everyone is not that way and that is bad for Honda but you know it's the nature of the beast. You could have a revolutionary product out there but if there is so much misinformation about it or no information out about it, it's not going to be sold, period. It would make sense that Honda spends more money per sales person on their car division than there motorcycle division, again nature of the beast. It's not shocking and personally don't think it has anything to do with the economy. The reason I bought a VFR is, it does everything well but had to find it out myself. 2¢ for the day.
Well another 2¢, that's another reason why the VFR does not sell like hot-cakes, it does everything well, motorcycles are leisure here, so they want the rocket or signal aircraft with chrome or Winnebago on two wheels, that's what I think anyway and yes the Sport-touring market has picked up steam but most people want the latter, again that's what I think. Have been told numerous times, the VFR sells everywhere else because motorcycles are used more for daily transportation. That's all folks.
Well, I totally agree with the OP, but... a couple of things:
1. We are the choir. A bunch of guys and gals who make an effort to hang out on a vehicle-based forum - well of course we are going to be enthusiasts for the most part, who know a lot about things with engines and wheels. :biggrin: Heck, some of the experts around here seem to know more esoteric stuff than anyone outside of Honda engineering deserves to know.
2. Think about all the people who spend five figures on bikes and cars, who know less than the salespeople. You know they gotta be out there, and in big numbers. Scary. :ohmy:
Everything that I just read above I agree with, and has always seemed to be typical of what you'd expect from Harley.....but when I went to the 2010 Chicago motorcycle show excited to see the "new" VFR1200, I was very disappointed :pissed: They did have two bikes, in their own special location within the Honda area, well equipped with flat screen tv's and all the way overprices shit that you can accessorize your new way overpriced bike with....and not a god damn person that was there to talk about the new bike. WTF I had to wonder around the Honda area and find some one to talk to! And once I did find someone, they didn't have much to say....except that everything is gettiing more expensive.
I walked away with a very bad taste in my mouth....I would rather buy another new 6th gen, long before I ever spent a dime on the 1200.... For shame Honda, your getting your ass kicked by lots of other bike manufactures!
Oh, man don't get me started!
My next bike will be a BMW S1000RR!! :fing02:
[image: View Post]ZenMoto, on 28 February 2011 - 07:37 PM, said:
It's not surprising that an internet savvy shopper will know more in-depth about the vehicle they are looking to purchase than the salesperson, after all, we're out there reading reviews, asking questions in forums, etc.. ...but it's sad when such BASIC features aren't known by the people trying to sell it.
While I agree with pretty much all the posts on this thread so far, this part really stands out. When anyone with half a brain starts researching a new bike or car in detail, I think it's only natural they'll know more than a salesperson in a multi-line dealership (as most motorcycle shops are). But like
Zen said above, it's sad when even basic info can't be recalled by a salesperson. Also, I can excuse ignorance of a few product features, but not outright stupidity in giving out incorrect info or specs. Especially on a new bike that lists for over $15k!
I used to read 2-3 bike mags a month, pretty much cover to cover. I could tell you about most new bikes coming out and give you a quick 411 on features and early reviews. I don't think it's unreasonable for professional salespeople to do at least that much homework on the products they're selling. :dry:
It seems like a bunch of sales people standing around with no customers in this economy would have some time to do research on their product so they could ROCK the next customer that does decide to wander in. I spent two years as a salesman at a local Ford dealership in the early 90's. After initial training we had printed material on each vehicle as well as "classes" in the service bays to give very specific info on each model. If we couldn't pass a WRITTEN test on standard and optional equipment on all models on a weekly basis, we were pulled from the sales floor for two full days so that we could refresh our training. Our general sales manager always said he didn't want us embarrassing him by giving out incorrect info on his products. You can bet that everyone on the floor knew Fords frontward, backward, and upside down. A salesman doesn't make squat if he/she is in a conference room reading for 10 hours a day for two days in a row! - much the same as a salesman on the floor that doesn't know his/her product.
Common sense nor common knowledge of product in salesmen is not a common commodity.
My Honda dealer turned both the girls automatic VFR1200FD and the VFR1200F into demo bikes but, no one even looks at them because Bill Robertson has crazy retarded prices on them.
After I bought my VFR1200F from North Hollywood Honda last year for $16,000.00, they raised the price by a thousand dollars on on the VFR1200F they replaced my bike with.
I bought my first VFR 750 from a big dealership in Lynwood, WA. It was early 1999, and the VFR was a new 2 year old VFR with 0 miles. I got a really good deal on it, unfortunately the salesman that sold me the bike knew two things about it, that it was a Honda, and it was red. I seemo be like most of you on this forum, I already know what I want, don't need a salesman to sell me on anything, just draw up the paperwork, and fnalize the sale. I'm fairly picky, for those of you that actually know me, and I know EXACTLY waht I want. When I was stationed in Tucson, I almost bought a bike at a Honda dealer there, but the salesman wanted to sell me a NightHawk 750 instead, and said that I could turn it into a really coolcafe racer. He didn't get my $$$, as he didn't get me what I wanted.
Traditional consumer vehicle salepersons are slowly becoming obsolete. We really don't need them like we did 20 years ago. You can get all the information you need via the internet, including detailed pricing. A demo ride/drive is good for a final evaluation and someone must facilitate this. When I purchased my Honda Accord a few years ago, I had my vehicle fully spec'd, I just needed a dealership to do two things:
A. Have the spec'd vehicle in stock.
B. Sell it to me at or below my price.
It took a couple months of talking to many dealerships to get the price where I wanted. Finally, a dealership having a weak January met my price at the end of the month. I made all of the arrangements via e-mail and went in one night and consummated the deal. I was in and out in about an hour with the new vehicle.
IG
Wow did this stir up some dirt. I was out picking up a CRF150F last night and was surprised at the response garnered here. I'd say I agree with most folks.
ZenMoto said:
It's not surprising that an internet savvy shopper will know more in-depth about the vehicle they are looking to purchase than the salesperson, after all, we're out there reading reviews, asking questions in forums, etc.. ...but it's sad when such BASIC features aren't known by the people trying to sell it.
I agree with you 100% that most of us that hang out on these forums will have a deeper product knowledge then a salesman selling multiple models, but this guy didn't even know the basics.
Cogswell said:
All I want from the salesman when purchasing is the best price - the bikes are the same each dealer and if the salesman is a Gomer, so what - as long as the price is right.
Ditto. The MIS-information that he gave me was unprompted by me, it just annoys/scares me how far off the guy was with his "information".
Luvmyvfr said:
Everything that I just read above I agree with, and has always seemed to be typical of what you'd expect from Harley.....but when I went to the 2010 Chicago motorcycle show excited to see the "new" VFR1200, I was very disappointed :pissed: They did have two bikes, in their own special location within the Honda area, well equipped with flat screen tv's and all the way overprices shit that you can accessorize your new way overpriced bike with....and not a god damn person that was there to talk about the new bike. WTF I had to wonder around the Honda area and find some one to talk to! And once I did find someone, they didn't have much to say....except that everything is gettiing more expensive.
I had a VERY similar experience at the show in NYC in Jan 2010. I removed the rear luggage from the bike just to see the mount/dismount system and was flocked by the Honda personnel asking "How did you do that? We have not been able to figure out how to remove it." WTF???
landlover said:
That's a heck of a good point, the internet, you don't there information as much. You want something done right, you do it yourself, if you can!
landlover, just to be clear I'm quite capable to research on my own. Honestly I wasn't looking for any answers from the guy outside if they had a demo bike available. I just find it SAD that a guy could be selling something and not know ANYTHING about the bike. I believe his employer is being ripped off.
Some of you know that I sold bikes for close to 7 years. While most of what has been is very true, one must not forget that there are numbskulls in every profession. Ive met morons in just about every field out there. A lot people know exactly what they want and just want the bottom line. However the VAST majority of people do not know and have no clue about the bike theyre purchasing. It sounds silly in this day and age, but trust me, its the truth. Ive dealt with thousands of customers, and Id venture a guess that 75% were unsure of the model they wanted, specs, and even price.
I had a lot of fun doing it and Ive even say that I was very good at it. The whole economy thing led me to pursue something else, but there are good salesman/dealerships out there.
Flame away!!
I'll chime in...
In March of 2000 I went into Nault's Windham Honda in NH.
I was looking to go from my EX500 to, most likely, a G00F, err, CBR 600F (of somesort).
I had _*HEARD*_ of VFRs, 8 years prior, in high school, drooled over the NSR etc, but the VFR was not on my radar.
So I head into the 'used' bikes section, sat on a CBR or two. Was looking at the prices and conditions, but nothing _*JUMPED*_ out at me.
So I strolled up to the new bikes section. Couple of CBRs, still, surprisingly, even with the new ones, no spark for me.
Then I saw the SSS, solo seat cover, yellow submarine. WOW. This is nice. Much better ergos...
Enter salesman - told me about the fuel injection, linked-brakes, etc. VERY knowledgeable about the VFR. Offered for me to take a test drive.
I came back from the test drive and had some more questions. He answered them, and then I went home to research. He was spot on.
I returned the next day and put the deposit on the bike with THAT salesman.
Granted, it was the 4th year of production for the 5th gen, but he knew his stuff, and that helped make my decision.
That isn't to say I haven't run into the morons as well. My $0.02
North America has moved from a manufacturing based economy to a 'service' based economy. As I remember, we weren't that bad a making stuff, but someone else was better (read cheaper) so we lost it all to them. Already we are seeing service jobs (telephone and internet based) moving out. If we don't pick up the pace it's gonna be hard times for all. If you think Honda lost its way... :ohmy: we're talking much bigger fish here...
Brian
PS. There are times where I worry about my kids future... :offtopic:
[/quote]
That said, I've run into several career sales professionals, who take sales very seriously. They pour over the magazines and spec sheets, they even lay out magazines with reviews of their products bookmarked for customers to browse though. They make it a point to know their product inside and out, as well as the competition! ...but it's getting to be a rare breed. Just too much laziness at dealerships these days! :(
[/quote]
I sounds like we should all get jobs selling bikes. Bike sales would jump 10 fold, car and truck sales would drop, oil consumption would drop and we would save the world. Easy peasy
I don't know why you people are surprised by the lack of knowledge.
Of course it's nice to speak with a salesman who knows his stuff. But who cares really?
If I am buying a new motorcycle or a car, I pretty much know all there is to know about it. I consider it my responsibility and not the salesman's. All I want the salesman to do is to kiss my ass a little and above all, give me a good price. That's all. A good prices is all I care about. The fact that some dude who sold me the bike or car knew nothing about it means nothing as soon as I drive away. The only thing that matters is how much money I left at the dealership.
But, how about those people who don't/won't/can't do their own research? Well, those people most likely don't care about the car or the bike any way. To them, it is a utility. A mode of transportation. Remember - Not everyone has passion for cars and bikes. So, the know nothing salesman will do just fine by them.
P.S.
Porshe dealer was right.
[image: View Post]Rice, on 02 March 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:
...Porshe dealer was right.
That's the sad part of it all... :dry:
Brian
[image: View Post]Rice, on 02 March 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:
I don't know why you people are surprised by the lack of knowledge.
Of course it's nice to speak with a salesman who knows his stuff. But who cares really?
If I am buying a new motorcycle or a car, I pretty much know all there is to know about it. I consider it my responsibility and not the salesman's.
Again, I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. I am in NO WAY suggesting that folks should not do their own research on a bike/car before talking to a salesman. However, let's look at the incompetence of the above mentioned salesman and a SLIGHTLY different scenario.
As an informed buyer I decide that I want a 6th gen VFR. At this point,
my mind is made up and nothing that a salesman can say (as you mentioned above) is going to sway my decision. It would seem that I have NOTHING to loose when dealing with a salesman that don't know the bike. Well, I have lots of time and decide that I'll fly and ride my new VFR from ANY dealer in the USA. I call dealer "X" in city "Y", state "Z" and inquire with salesman Bob about their 6G VFR's. Bob excitedly tells me that they have a NEW 2008 for sale still for $5k OTD! WOW, great price and I ask him if it has ABS as we all know ABS was OPTIONAL in the 6G model line and my heart was set on only buying an ABS equipped bike b/c ABS once saved my uncle's, brother's, cousin's ... sometime in the past and I'm simply not buying a bike without ABS. Well, Bob being the lazy azz salesman that he is doesn't even realize that ANY 6G VFR had ever come with ABS and tells me that it is NOT an ABS bike without ever looking into it within the computer system. Remember this is all theory, but it seems it COULD be possible in this scenario.
[image: View Post]MattB, on 02 March 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Rice, on 02 March 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:
I don't know why you people are surprised by the lack of knowledge.
Of course it's nice to speak with a salesman who knows his stuff. But who cares really?
If I am buying a new motorcycle or a car, I pretty much know all there is to know about it. I consider it my responsibility and not the salesman's.
Again, I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. I am in NO WAY suggesting that folks should not do their own research on a bike/car before talking to a salesman. However, let's look at the incompetence of the above mentioned salesman and a SLIGHTLY different scenario.
As an informed buyer I decide that I want a 6th gen VFR. At this point,
my mind is made up and nothing that a salesman can say (as you mentioned above) is going to sway my decision. It would seem that I have NOTHING to loose when dealing with a salesman that don't know the bike. Well, I have lots of time and decide that I'll fly and ride my new VFR from ANY dealer in the USA. I call dealer "X" in city "Y", state "Z" and inquire with salesman Bob about their 6G VFR's. Bob excitedly tells me that they have a NEW 2008 for sale still for $5k OTD! WOW, great price and I ask him if it has ABS as we all know ABS was OPTIONAL in the 6G model line and my heart was set on only buying an ABS equipped bike b/c ABS once saved my uncle's, brother's, cousin's ... sometime in the past and I'm simply not buying a bike without ABS. Well, Bob being the lazy azz salesman that he is doesn't even realize that ANY 6G VFR had ever come with ABS and tells me that it is NOT an ABS bike without ever looking into it within the computer system. Remember this is all theory, but it seems it COULD be possible in this scenario.
Well, I guess lazy ass Bob doesn't get to sell the bike to you :comp13: You might find a better deal, maybe not......
I'm glad I can't afford another bike right now and don't have to worry about it :goofy:
I get Matt's point. Misinformation is not just annoying and bad for your bank account, it could even be dangerous. What if an uninformed consumer was buying a car and the salesperson quoted bad crash protection data?
As always, buyer beware.
[image: View Post]Rice, on 02 March 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:
All I want the salesman to do is to kiss my ass a little...
Uh, remind me never to sell you anything, Dmitry. :unsure:
:laugh:
As a sales manager in the car business I've hired and fired hundreds of salespeople. The ones with the encyclopaedic knowledge of their product are never the top performers and almost always get jaded and leave the industry. Product knowledge is good but to succeed in sales you need a positive attitude and the ability to get people to like you.
[image: View Post]phobe, on 02 March 2011 - 02:47 PM, said:
As a sales manager in the car business I've hired and fired hundreds of salespeople. The ones with the encyclopaedic knowledge of their product are never the top performers and almost always get jaded and leave the industry. Product knowledge is good but to succeed in sales you need a positive attitude and the ability to get people to like you.
I believe you and I am sure you know what you are talking about. I refuse to talk or deal with any sales person who does not know the product. I am not looking for somone to sell me anything so the sales guy or gal could be a nice person that I like, SO WHAT - that is not what I want or need, no sale here is they do not know the product.
Quote
to succeed in sales you need a positive attitude and the ability to get people to like you.
No wonder I hated being in sales. :pissed: :laughing6-hehe:
I don't expect the people in Home Doh or Lowes to have a clue about what kind of fastener or material is best for the job I have in mind.
Best I figure that out before I go in, and know exactly what I want. :dry:
But for something expensive like a bike, it's nice to have someone that knows wtf they're talking about.
Although personally for bikes I know what I want and it doesn't matter if the salesperson is an idiot or not, I just want the deal.
But, when it comes to service and parts, that's when I care if they know their stuff.
Once, a long time ago, a parts counter guy at an auto parts saved me a lot of time and money.
My car leaked oil from the oil pressure sensor. Dad said, put a bolt in there to stop the leak, buy a sensor when you have a chance.
Car wouldn't start. Fooled with testing it a bunch, and concluded the fuel pump was not working.
Went to store and asked for the sensor and the fuel pump. Guy told me if the sensor is disconnected, the fuel pump gets no power.
Saved me cost of the fuel pump, and the labor to change it. :cool:
One reason I prefer not to do my own work these days, but I digress.
[image: View Post]OGBiker, on 02 March 2011 - 04:44 PM, said:
[image: View Post]phobe, on 02 March 2011 - 02:47 PM, said:
As a sales manager in the car business I've hired and fired hundreds of salespeople. The ones with the encyclopaedic knowledge of their product are never the top performers and almost always get jaded and leave the industry. Product knowledge is good but to succeed in sales you need a positive attitude and the ability to get people to like you.
I believe you and I am sure you know what you are talking about. I refuse to talk or deal with any sales person who does not know the product. I am not looking for somone to sell me anything so the sales guy or gal could be a nice person that I like, SO WHAT - that is not what I want or need, no sale here is they do not know the product.
Kind of like walking into a Honda Powerhouse dealer and having the sale'sperson speak the lingo, give kudo's to the way the bike rides and zips along.... only to add " Sorry man, I have to wait for someone to go with you for a ride.... I dont have a class 6".
Look at the back of my jacket as I walk out the door laughing my ass off and shaking my head in disgust.
Quote
If I am buying a new motorcycle or a car, I pretty much know all there is to know about it. I consider it my responsibility and not the salesman's. All I want the salesman to do is to kiss my ass a little and above all, give me a good price. That's all. A good prices is all I care about. The fact that some dude who sold me the bike or car knew nothing about it means nothing as soon as I drive away. The only thing that matters is how much money I left at the dealership.
I hear what your saying, but unfortunatly thats not real life. Heres the way it is.. trust me....(for selling bikes anyhow)
Being a god of product knowledge can hurt or help your chances of doing well in the sales business. As I said before..the majority of people do not know what they want or are trying to decide on a couple of different models. (Ive seriously had people trying to decide between say like a CBR 600 or a VTX 1300) A salesman needs to have very good knowledge about everything hes selling, but also when to use that knowledge is KEY..Heres an example..
Its late 2001. Person walks in and cant decide on a 2001 VFR or a 2002 VFR..Wants to know the pros and cons of both? What do you say??
If the above was true, then you would simply say.."Well the 2001 is $1500 cheaper. Id go with that one" We all know thats not going to be a sale.
Same scenario..but this time the salesman rambles on about expensive valve adjustments, V-Tech engagement points, chain driven cams, weight, abs, and electrical issues on a 2002 .Hes likely not going to get any sale. Customer would probably be more confused than when they came in. Maybe the customer was leaning towards the 2002 and you just talked yourself right out of a sale. An example of too much knowledge.
Somwhere in the middle of those two lies a good salesman. A salesman that works with the customer on price, and only offers as much info as required. Being able to decifer what kind of customer your dealing with helps big time. And trust me...being a cool cat helps too. I couldnt begin to tell you how many deals I closed and referrals I got over a few beers.
End of thread · 30 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 26 Mar 2011