At least now that it's happened twice more, I have some more clues as to why.
My '86 VFR700 is blowing the ignition fuse when it gets hot. If I put in a new fuse while it is still hot, it blows it immediately. If I wait till the bike cools down, I can replace the fuse and ride away, until it gets hot again.
One more thing: The bike doesn't just shut off when it gets hot. It blows the fuse if I stall out. Every time this happens, it's when I stall out in first (still getting used to this clutch, it's different than my other bikes). Bike stalls, I hit the switch to re-start, nothing.
Any ideas? I can't find any shorts at all. Is this related to the ignition switch?
[image: View Post]coffeebrake, on 14 March 2011 - 05:35 AM, said:
At least now that it's happened twice more, I have some more clues as to why.
My '86 VFR700 is blowing the ignition fuse when it gets hot. If I put in a new fuse while it is still hot, it blows it immediately. If I wait till the bike cools down, I can replace the fuse and ride away, until it gets hot again.
One more thing: The bike doesn't just shut off when it gets hot. It blows the fuse if I stall out. Every time this happens, it's when I stall out in first (still getting used to this clutch, it's different than my other bikes). Bike stalls, I hit the switch to re-start, nothing.
Any ideas? I can't find any shorts at all. Is this related to the ignition switch?
Really no idea, however years ago I had a GL1200 that one day decided to short out across the starter button switch. Melted the plastic so that the button wouldn't move, and no connections for the headlight to come on after we push started it.
Maybe take a look inside the right side switch pod?
Perhaps some others could shoot that theory down first? :laughing6-hehe:
Fuses blow due to too much resistance in the circuit, usually a short. It can also be the rusult of poor connections. Check the battery cables at the battery & the starter, check the ground connection to the frame for looseness/corrosion.
Just a slight difference of opinion here: fuses blow due to current flow over the rated limit of said fuse. I am not familiar with the wiring on your bike. When you say ignition fuse, do you mean the main 30 amp fuse? At least that is what the 3rd and 5th gen use under the seat by the battery. Or do mean a fuse from the fusebox?
If it's only happening when you stall, are you making the bike lurch? Do you have some bare wire that may contact the frame while lurching? I would check all of your insulation on your harness, at least where it is close to the main fuse, and starter relay. Do all of those connections look good? Are the connectors in good shape? Any melting?
Hope you find it!
Cheers!
Generally speaking, electrical problems is one reason I will never own a Honda again....car or bike. I've been stranded due to electrical issues and there is no excuse for a weak electrical system in this day and time.
I'm beginning to feel the same way, there's a nice Bandit nearby for sale....
Naw, I really like the VFR and I'm sure this is simple. I just gotta find it.
The fuse that keeps blowing is called the "ignition" fuse, it is a 10-amp fuse in the fuse box. After I feed my husband his dinner I'm pulling out the wiring diagram and chasing everything I can find.
The fact that it happens when hot makes me determined to check everything near the thermostat wiring.
I'm not lunging when I stall, not as much as, say, crossing railroad tracks. I just don't see anything loose enough to swing up and make contact in there.
I've been through the solenoid and battery and frame connections, if it's bad I can't see it and cleaning it is doing no good. I do know just because it looks good, doesn't mean it is. I sure hope I can find this, the bike is utterly undependable at this point and I've been fortunate to have other riders with me every time it quit.
If it happens consistently when the engine is warm it may be the ignition box. Is the ignition module exposed to any extra heat ei hanging near an exhaust pipe or radiator? Have you or a previous owner had trouble with the regulator/rectifier causing an overvoltage? If so it may have damaged the ignition module.
I don't think the thermostat or wiring associated with it is the problem.
[image: View Post]coffeebrake, on 14 March 2011 - 04:10 PM, said:
I'm beginning to feel the same way, there's a nice Bandit nearby for sale....
Naw, I really like the VFR and I'm sure this is simple. I just gotta find it.
The fuse that keeps blowing is called the "ignition" fuse, it is a 10-amp fuse in the fuse box. After I feed my husband his dinner I'm pulling out the wiring diagram and chasing everything I can find.
The fact that it happens when hot makes me determined to check everything near the thermostat wiring.
I'm not lunging when I stall, not as much as, say, crossing railroad tracks. I just don't see anything loose enough to swing up and make contact in there.
I've been through the solenoid and battery and frame connections, if it's bad I can't see it and cleaning it is doing no good. I do know just because it looks good, doesn't mean it is. I sure hope I can find this, the bike is utterly undependable at this point and I've been fortunate to have other riders with me every time it quit.
[image: View Post]apex, on 15 March 2011 - 09:17 AM, said:
If it happens consistently when the engine is warm it may be the ignition box. Is the ignition module exposed to any extra heat ei hanging near an exhaust pipe or radiator? Have you or a previous owner had trouble with the regulator/rectifier causing an overvoltage? If so it may have damaged the ignition module.
I don't think the thermostat or wiring associated with it is the problem.
Good info, thank you. Much appreciated.
The CDI box (ignition box?) is in the stock location and I haven't had the fairing lowers on since I got the bike so I must assume it can't be getting any extra heat.
Didn't get to touch the bike because I managed to tear down part of my fence trying to cut tree limbs. Now I'm busy fixing the dam fence. :dry:
I go the bike as hot as it would get when I first got it, checking out the cooling system. No fuses shorted.
I have ridden the bike hot in traffic, no fuses shorted.
I have stalled the bike out many times, no fuses shorted.
But, when the bike is hot AND I stall out, the fuse shorts.
Always the ignition fuse.
I'll get up near that ignitor box and check it all out too, I have my fingers crossed I come across a dirty connection.
This IS the bike that had the dead squirrel in an air box full of next, and has only 5k miles in 25 years. It is also a bike that has been in a fight with a picnic table and lost by the looks of it.
I have no idea what else to look for, but as soon as I get some more nails and cement for the fence post, I can dig in there...so much for my day off.....
The bike is hot AND you stall it. Does this mean you are trying to start it and it dies? If so, the problem sounds like either the starter solenoid OR the starter itself gets too hot and bind up, thereby blowing the fuse by drawing excessive amps? Maybe. I know my old Corette did this and the starter was right next to the headers.
since the starter is mechanically engaged constantly, the one-way bearing is what disconnects the starter from the running engine. When the engine is stopped (stalled or cut ignition) it can flip (you can hear the starter whirr) backwards just a bit from a piston bouncing off its compression stroke. This engages the one-way clutch and flips the starter motor backwards, producing power (it's just a direct current motor; powered it spins, spin it and it produces power)... ... so... that bit of power could be aggravating something else? have you tried another starter relay?
heat powered intermittent electrical problems are fun :|
[image: View Post]coffeebrake, on 14 March 2011 - 05:35 AM, said:
At least now that it's happened twice more, I have some more clues as to why.
My '86 VFR700 is blowing the ignition fuse when it gets hot. If I put in a new fuse while it is still hot, it blows it immediately. If I wait till the bike cools down, I can replace the fuse and ride away, until it gets hot again.
One more thing: The bike doesn't just shut off when it gets hot. It blows the fuse if I stall out. Every time this happens, it's when I stall out in first (still getting used to this clutch, it's different than my other bikes). Bike stalls, I hit the switch to re-start, nothing.
Any ideas? I can't find any shorts at all. Is this related to the ignition switch?
I have to agree with vfrrider, sounds like the starter is pulling too many amps when the bike is hot. They usually do that when it gets hot, one thats been in service for many many years.
Oooh, more info. I really appreciate it...and the fence is repaired. Now I can work.
When the bike quits, pushing the starter button does nothing. No click, no whir, no nothing. The lights all come on and the headlight cuts out while the starter button is being pushed, just like it should. But there is no sound, no nothing when I push the button.
While the bike is still hot, I can put in fuse after fuse into the slot at the handlebars called "ignition" and still get nothing. The fuse is OK until I hit the starter button. Nothing happens, but I can hear the fuse blow. When the bike has cooled down, I can put in a new fuse and it starts perfectly normal.
Is this consistent with a bad starter?
This starter has less than 6k miles on it. With the bike cold, the starter sounds just fine, no grinding, no slowness, it cranks the motor over very well. But the bike sat, and sat, and sat for years. Did the starter go bad from sitting?
I think you have found the culprit :cheerleader: :cheerleader: , Starter Heat Soak, I have had the same thing happen with a couple of cars I have had. The fun thing about electronic stuff, doesn't matter how old it is stuff happens....
[image: View Post]coffeebrake, on 15 March 2011 - 05:39 PM, said:
Oooh, more info. I really appreciate it...and the fence is repaired. Now I can work.
When the bike quits, pushing the starter button does nothing. No click, no whir, no nothing. The lights all come on and the headlight cuts out while the starter button is being pushed, just like it should. But there is no sound, no nothing when I push the button.
While the bike is still hot, I can put in fuse after fuse into the slot at the handlebars called "ignition" and still get nothing. The fuse is OK until I hit the starter button. Nothing happens, but I can hear the fuse blow. When the bike has cooled down, I can put in a new fuse and it starts perfectly normal.
Is this consistent with a bad starter?
This starter has less than 6k miles on it. With the bike cold, the starter sounds just fine, no grinding, no slowness, it cranks the motor over very well. But the bike sat, and sat, and sat for years. Did the starter go bad from sitting?
I would look at the starter itself, like HS suggested. Look in the manual, if there is a thermal switch on the starter, perhaps it shorts when hot, and overdraws the system. Have you looked at the starter relay? I think it is a green rubber covered solenoid switch just forward of the battery. It seems the problem you are having is familiar to me...before I got my first real electrical failure, I think my 90 was doing something like this. It has been 20 years, so it is foggy, but I remember now having to keep spare 10 and 30 amp fuses on the bike. That is, until I discovered the charred solenoid switch. When it's hot, it may be shorting there. it just sounds so familiar.
Glad you got the fence fixed.
Cheers!
Actually the starter is not hooked into the fuse panel.
[image: View Post]coffeebrake, on 15 March 2011 - 05:39 PM, said:
Oooh, more info. I really appreciate it...and the fence is repaired. Now I can work.
When the bike quits, pushing the starter button does nothing. No click, no whir, no nothing. The lights all come on and the headlight cuts out while the starter button is being pushed, just like it should. But there is no sound, no nothing when I push the button.
While the bike is still hot, I can put in fuse after fuse into the slot at the handlebars called "ignition" and still get nothing. The fuse is OK until I hit the starter button. Nothing happens, but I can hear the fuse blow. When the bike has cooled down, I can put in a new fuse and it starts perfectly normal.
Is this consistent with a bad starter?
This starter has less than 6k miles on it. With the bike cold, the starter sounds just fine, no grinding, no slowness, it cranks the motor over very well. But the bike sat, and sat, and sat for years. Did the starter go bad from sitting?
The ignition circuit (on a 10 amp fuse) would drive the starter relay, which is what engages the starter motor. The starter relay itself uses a 30 amp fuse.
I would suggest that your starter relay is faulty, and pulling so many amps to flip the relay that it blows the 10amp fuse that is in-line from the starter switch. Start by having a look at the starter relay. It's literally right next to the battery - pull it out and clean up all the contacts.
If you can nail it down to the starter relay but cleaning it up doesn't help, replace your starter relay assembly. Pretty sure on your bike it's called the SWITCH ASSEMBLY, STARTER, part code 35850-MF5-751. That's if your bike is a 1986 VFR700.
If your starter motor was faulty, you would be blowing the 30amp fuse, not the 10 amp fuse.
To test this, here's what I would do:
Turn on the ignition
Get a piece of wire, cut it into two lengths
Wire one end of each wire piece to either side of a spare 10 amp fuse and wrap each terminal in electrical tape for safety.
Connect the other end of one piece of wire to the positive battery terminal
Holding the remaining piece of wire carefully, touch the end of it to the positive terminal on the starter relay (where the wire that leads back to the ignition switch is connected).
See if the 10amp fuse in your test wire blows.
If it blows even when you have bypassed the starter switch circuit, then you know the starter relay is stuffed. Easy!
[image: View Post]kaldek, on 15 March 2011 - 10:49 PM, said:
The ignition circuit (on a 10 amp fuse) would drive the starter relay, which is what engages the starter motor. The starter relay itself uses a 30 amp fuse.
I would suggest that your starter relay is faulty, and pulling so many amps to flip the relay that it blows the 10amp fuse that is in-line from the starter switch. Start by having a look at the starter relay. It's literally right next to the battery - pull it out and clean up all the contacts.
If you can nail it down to the starter relay but cleaning it up doesn't help, replace your starter relay assembly. Pretty sure on your bike it's called the SWITCH ASSEMBLY, STARTER, part code 35850-MF5-751. That's if your bike is a 1986 VFR700.
If your starter motor was faulty, you would be blowing the 30amp fuse, not the 10 amp fuse.
To test this, here's what I would do:
Turn on the ignition
Get a piece of wire, cut it into two lengths
Wire one end of each wire piece to either side of a spare 10 amp fuse and wrap each terminal in electrical tape for safety.
Connect the other end of one piece of wire to the positive battery terminal
Holding the remaining piece of wire carefully, touch the end of it to the positive terminal on the starter relay (where the wire that leads back to the ignition switch is connected).
See if the 10amp fuse in your test wire blows.
If it blows even when you have bypassed the starter switch circuit, then you know the starter relay is stuffed. Easy!
Is this test for when the bike is hot?
I can definately do it...and I can even carry around the solenoid (relay) off my CB750 to get me home. The two relays are very similar.
Thanks for the info on the starter, I had some trouble with the Yamaha Vmax starter when it got hot, too, so it made sense here. But if the starter doesn't even go through the fuse box...
This fuse, in the diagram, it's tied into about every light on the bike. But I don't see that it goes to the solenoid at all.
the first time I was stranded, I cleaned and secured the contacts on the solenoid, that was the first thing I suspected.
Just don't wanna get stranded without some help nearby, is why I'm asking so many questions before I fire up the bike....
There is a diode (part named silicon rectifier) that is connected to the starter relay, the neutral switch, the clutch switch and the neutral indicator light. If you have the part on your gold wing you might try swapping it if you have not tried so.
[image: View Post]coffeebrake, on 16 March 2011 - 05:24 AM, said:
The starter solenoid is the same part as the Goldwings and can be had new for $23, so let's hope it's that easy and cheap....
[image: View Post]apex, on 16 March 2011 - 08:43 AM, said:
There is a diode (part named silicon rectifier) that is connected to the starter relay, the neutral switch, the clutch switch and the neutral indicator light. If you have the part on your gold wing you might try swapping it if you have not tried so.
I don't have a Goldwing, I have a CB750...I was just doing some research on the part number...But this diode, what would it look like? Can I see it on the housing of the solenoid?
[image: View Post]coffeebrake, on 16 March 2011 - 10:28 AM, said:
Can I see it on the housing of the solenoid?
It's a rectangular shape, 2 connectors, about .5x.5x1.5" piggybacked on the wiring harness, I forgot where on the harness on the 86's though. In the front half for sure.
[image: View Post]kaldek, on 15 March 2011 - 10:49 PM, said:
The ignition circuit (on a 10 amp fuse) would drive the starter relay, which is what engages the starter motor. The starter relay itself uses a 30 amp fuse.
I would suggest that your starter relay is faulty, and pulling so many amps to flip the relay that it blows the 10amp fuse that is in-line from the starter switch. Start by having a look at the starter relay. It's literally right next to the battery - pull it out and clean up all the contacts.
If you can nail it down to the starter relay but cleaning it up doesn't help, replace your starter relay assembly. Pretty sure on your bike it's called the SWITCH ASSEMBLY, STARTER, part code 35850-MF5-751. That's if your bike is a 1986 VFR700.
If your starter motor was faulty, you would be blowing the 30amp fuse, not the 10 amp fuse.
What he said! My problem went away when I repaired those terminals on the relay. And I am certain the ignition fuse goes to the starter relay, despite opinions to the contrary...I looked up the schematic on the 86 700...
The part he said about the test...the fuse should blow when hot, and not blow when cold.
OK I read and understood everything ya'll said and I tried unsuccessfully to replicate the problem here in the garage. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
All I did was completely take off the solenoid and even though everything looked clean, I scraped it even cleaner and put it all back together. Let the bike get good and hot and it starts right up. I dunno...but I taped some extra fuses to the side cover till I figure this out.
Also....while we're talking wiring...will some of you fine folks confirm that I should hard-wire the R/R? Take out the bullet connections and solder it right into the harness?
[image: View Post]coffeebrake, on 17 March 2011 - 11:25 AM, said:
Nope, it did it again, this time with the engine cold.
This time, I was rocking the bike back and forth to get it out of a low spot in the yard when it blew the fuse.
So this IS related to the lunging that happens when I stall the bike and it blows a fuse.
It does not happen when I ride over a bump. It does not matter if the bike is in gear or not.
It does not matter if the bike is hot or cold.
How the heck am I blowing this fuse?!
CB,
This is a long shot-is it possible that the positive terminal is touching anything(frame etc)? My cbx did this a couple of times-going around a corner or hitting a bump caused the batt to shift in the tray and touch the frame-the hold down strap was on backorder and i thought it was safe-no dice-kept popping the fuse-took a while to figure that one out- when you said you were rocking the bike that reminded me of my past situation. Hope this helps
[image: View Post]tippman, on 17 March 2011 - 11:56 AM, said:
[image: View Post]coffeebrake, on 17 March 2011 - 11:25 AM, said:
Nope, it did it again, this time with the engine cold.
This time, I was rocking the bike back and forth to get it out of a low spot in the yard when it blew the fuse.
So this IS related to the lunging that happens when I stall the bike and it blows a fuse.
It does not happen when I ride over a bump. It does not matter if the bike is in gear or not.
It does not matter if the bike is hot or cold.
How the heck am I blowing this fuse?!
CB,
This is a long shot-is it possible that the positive terminal is touching anything(frame etc)? My cbx did this a couple of times-going around a corner or hitting a bump caused the batt to shift in the tray and touch the frame-the hold down strap was on backorder and i thought it was safe-no dice-kept popping the fuse-took a while to figure that one out- when you said you were rocking the bike that reminded me of my past situation. Hope this helps
This is a start. You need to find a bare piece of wire somewhere. You have a short! Intermittent ones are the most fun to track down. Is it the original wire harness? you may have to peel some of the black wrapping off near known VFR wiring weak spots...such as the starter relay, r/r connector, etc. look for bubbled, cracked wiring!
You are moving forward. One more clue may get you there!
Cheers!
[image: View Post]coffeebrake, on 17 March 2011 - 11:25 AM, said:
Nope, it did it again, this time with the engine cold.
This time, I was rocking the bike back and forth to get it out of a low spot in the yard when it blew the fuse.
Was the bike running at the time of said rocking?
Was ignition on?
At this point, I would try to reproduce the issue in a more controlled environment.
1- Buy a bucket of fuses :laughing6-hehe:
2 - Start the bike (or turn on ignition - whatever it was last time) and wiggle every section of wire one at a time to find general location of the short. Don't forget to ware gloves.
3 - Open up the loom/insulation to expose individual wires and look for dark or bare spots. Also look at the frame for evidence of arcing.
It may be frustrating....but at least you are on the right path now :fing02: Good luck, I have had experience tracking shorts in old cars :beatdeadhorse:
Got the tank off. Then the cowling, the headlight, the gauges, the fuse box, the ignition key, pulled it all apart, the WIRING DIAGRAM IS WRONG in the Clymers, it's not a black wire with a blue stripe, it's a black wire with no stripe.
Determined to follow that black wire wherever it went, I got as far as underneath the top triple and found the rub spot, and bare copper sticking through a black wire.
The bike has been in a front end collision and has obviously had a few things not put back right.
I was about to part the thing out...but I guess I'll be riding this weekend instead!
Thanks for the help. I really, really appreciate it.
Yeah coffee. Good job picking up the mistake in clymers. I was researching a couple of days ago in my clymers and noted that in there they had the third fuse from the left (black) powering the starter switch and fuel pump relay. When in fact that that is the 4th one from the left on the fuse panel.
I had pulled the fourth fuse and could hear a click. I didn't put it together and kept tracing the Brown/blue which powers the inst lights and turn signals. I am going to note the mistake in the fuse order. Thanks.
Congratulations lady! And makes dinner and fixes fences too! Where you from!? My wife is a country girl, but not quite that accomplished!!
Glad you got it sorted out (sorted the short!).
Cheers!
Awww, my , what a sweet old ride....I love that VFR, it fits me so well...just a few little mechanical issues (like the years-old fork oil soaked into the brake pads and the 25-year-old rear shock), and the rest will just be simple cosmetics.
I flogged the old boy all over my town tonight with nary a hickup. Only thing is, somehow one of the rubber boots that fits over the electrical connectors came off and was on the engine. I looked down about 5 minutes into the ride and completely panicked, the smoke was BILLOWING up from under the tank! I did some highly illegal stuff to get it off the road, grabbed the tank bag and ran away from the bike because I was sure it was about to blow up!!!!
But it was just that rubber boot thingy, melting and smelling up the place. This on top of the dead squirrel smell it still has even with a new air filter. So..the VFR has earned the name of "Stinky." Nobody will even park near it. I'm so ashamed... :comp13:
I'm a local Southeasterner who has had far too many mechanics mess up her bikes and offer poor advice--so nobody touches my bikes now but me (and Hubby can move them around and ride them too but he's not interested in wrenching). My past is rooted in cutting firewood every Fall and lots of fishing and hunting and good Southern hospitality...and the whole family rides motorcycles.
Wow this is some kinda high, my Honda works again, and it's smooth as you could ever want.
End of thread · 39 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 26 Oct 2012