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Do you want to know why the VFR 1200 is underpowered?

28 posts Started 28 Apr 2011 Last recovered post 30 Apr 2011 Wayback Machine snapshot 28 May 2011

#1
Do you want to know why your VFR 1200 is underpowered in several ways (RPM, HP, top speed, other mappings for first and second gear)?

It's simple. By being "self regulating" Honda tries to avoid we are all going to drive around with motorcycles limited to 100 HP or even 75HP.

How did it start?

Manufacturers War (Better known as the "The Hayabusa War")

The Suzuki Hayabusa (or GSX1300R) is a sport bike motorcycle made by Suzuki since 1999. It immediately won acclaim as the world's fastest production motorcycle, with a top speed of 188 to 194 miles per hour (303 to 312 km/h).

Hayabusa (隼) is Japanese for "peregrine falcon" In particular, the choice of name was made because the peregrine falcon preys on blackbirds, which reflected the intent of the original Hayabusa to unseat the Honda CBR1100XX Super Blackbird as the world's fastest production motorcycle. Eventually, the Hayabusa managed to surpass the Super Blackbird by at least a full 10 miles per hour (16 km/h).

In 2000, fears of a European regulatory backlash or import ban led to an informal agreement between the Japanese and European manufacturers to govern the top speed of their motorcycles at an arbitrary limit.

With rumors and then pre-release announcements of much greater power in Kawasaki's Ninja ZX-12R in 2000, clearly attempting to unseat Suzuki and regain lucrative bragging rights, the speed war appeared to be escalating. There were growing fears of carnage and mayhem from motorcycles getting outrageously faster every year, and there was talk of regulating hyper sport motorcycles, or banning their import to Europe.

The gentlemen's agreement (forced peace agreement between the manufacturers and the government)

The response was a so-called gentlemen's agreement between the Japanese and European manufacturers to electronically limit the speed of their motorcycles to 300 kilometres per hour (186 mph) and to not mention horsepower, speed, acceleration or power-to-weight ratios in advertising and promotional materials. Speedometers will not read past 300 kph, either.

This ended the top speed wars between the manufacturers, and the 1999-2000 Suzuki Hayabusa will likely retire as the fastest production motorcycle ever sold.

While Honda did announce that its motorcycles would not go faster than 300 km/h, Suzuki and Kawasaki would not speak on record about this issue. The agreement between them and the other brands has never been officially acknowledged by the manufacturers, though media sources report it via unnamed informants, and by testing the top speed of motorcycles known to be capable of exceeding the arbitrary maximum. The informal agreement went into effect for the 2001 model year. So for 2001models, and those since, the question of which bike was fastest could only be answered by tampering with the speed limiting system, meaning that it was no longer a contest between stock, production motorcycles, absolving the manufacture of blame and letting those not quite as fast avoid losing face. Both Kawasaki and Suzuki would claim, at least technically, to have the world's fastest production motorcycle. But the speed war continued underground, out of the spotlight, with fierce competition among enthusiasts of the "200 mph club", albeit with the slight technical modification necessary to bypass the speed limiter, separating that war from the ostensibly at peace world of stock motorcycles.

(although reworked, most of this information comes from Wikipedia. If you want to know more; just go to Wikipedia)

The gentlemen's agreement doesn't seems to work anymore (War against the government)


Europe's 100 HP motorcycle limit

(source: http://kustomking.bl...ycle-limit.html)
There's a lot of sensational misinformation surrounding proposed European Union regulations that could see all motorcycles sold there restricted to 100 HP, so we've asked Norwegian journalist Ivar Kvadsheim to break things down for us. Even if the power limit doesn't become law, it looks like mandatory ABS and linked brakes could.

Background:
- EU is working on new legislation for motorcycles. Loads of big and small directives concerning type approval of motorcycles are put into one new framework regulation.
- While they're at it they also want to look at adding new measures to improve safety and lower emissions.
- Whatever the framework regulation ends up looking like, it'll be passed as law in all EU-countries, basically all of Europe.

What's happening now?
- The EU Commission (the bureaucrats) is working on the proposal for the EU Parliament (the politicians) to vote over. They want this proposal ready before the summer and have the vote as soon as possible.
- The motorcycle industry (ACEM), the motorcyclists' federation (FEMA) and various road safety organizations are lobbying like mad.

Should European motorcyclists worry?
Yes. Some of the proposals the Commission is working on can potentially change everyday life for every European motorcyclist. FEMA (in some cases working with ACEM, in others against them) are directly involved in negotiations over the final draft, but so are other groups with other interests. There's no telling what can be stopped or not before the proposal reaches the politicians. Whatever happens when they get it is anyone's guess.

see also: http://www.twowheels...mit-motorcycles

What about the USA?

Although I live in Europe, if I read this article, the situation in the USA looks even worse than in Europe.

source: http://motorcycles.a...-horsepower.htm

Acting preemptively in light of the European Union's recent push towards limiting motorcycle horsepower to 100, Congress has quietly passed a transportation bill that will cap motorcycle engine output at 75 hp.

At a press conference today, DOT spokesman Melvin P. Meyers announced that "We can't lag behind Europe's progressive stance towards two-wheeled moderation." The bill not only limits the horsepower of current and future motorcycle models, it retroactively applies to any registered bike on the road, and will take effect as early as January, 2011. "In the interest of public safety," Meyers explains, "law enforcement officials will clamp down on any and all motorcyclists who violate the law."

The bill outlines numerous electronic and mechanical implements that reduce engine output. For instance, fuel-injected powerplants will be fitted with revised engine management chips and/or throttle bodies, while older carbureted bikes will have a reduction gear attached to the throttle assembly. In instances where owners choose to retain the mechanical authenticity of their motorcycles, a banana can also be slipped into the exhaust pipe(s). At the discretion of state police, mobile dynamometers may be utilized for field tests.

Both the Motorcycle Industry Council and the American Motorcyclist Association have lobbied against the bill, in addition to most manufacturers including Aprilia, BMW, Ducati, Honda, Kawasaki, KTM, Suzuki, Triumph, and Yamaha.

There has been no comment from Harley-Davidson, though Forbes reports that Harley stock has jumped 12 percent on the announcement

First Victim - VFR 1200

Although several new models were introduced after the VFR 1200, on every Honda website in Europe, the VFR 1200 is still the Flagship.

This my personal opinion (and Honda will never admit it), but I think they want to use the VFR 1200 to get a new gentlemen's agreement. But this time with a speedlimit of 250 km/h instead of 300 km/h (and to avoid the 100 HP/75HP limit).

In order to convince the EU regulators (and USA regulators as well), they also want to prove they mean it. What's the value of a speedlimiter, if you still have a motorcycle with enough HP to go up to 300 km/h? Every tech guy can tell you this is a +200 HP engine if you produce enough RPM (and it can)

The consequence is that they installed an ECU that limits the RPM in order to produce lesser HP.

The different mapping of first and second gear is also a "promotion" by Honda for safer riding...

Convinced? I am!
#2
Really, do we need a bike with over 150 HP? Is there any legal place in the world (maybe the Autobahn) to ride over say 120 kilometres an hour?
I've never really understood the draw of buying a Hayabusa or superbike - you can't legally ride it like it was designed.

Frankly if my insurance goes down because of a limit of 100 HP - I'm all for it. Plus maybe it will prevent more motorcycle accidents.

It won't be long before this thread deteriorates into a 'rights' argument, gun laws and the 'evil empire'. :laughing6-hehe:
#3
i don't really see it that way at all. honda is going after a segment of the market with a high tech package that does alot of things well. is the vfr underpowered? perhaps to the hayabusa/zx14 crowd. or perhaps it is too heavy with 200cc's to much if you speak with alot of existing vfr owners.

the more the vfr1200 is around, the more it begins to make sense.

:cheerleader:
#4
100hp is not tooo bad....look at what 100hp does in one of those feather light 600 supersports. Our VFRs (on a good day) will give 105 ish, and I can't say I've ever felt it was 'underpowered'. The real problem is going to come up when the dopey bureaucrats find out that you can kill yourself just as quick on 100hp as 200hp.

Stupid is as stupid does, :squid: having more hp does not make you stupider, just lets you get stupid 0.3sec quicker...

Brian

PS. let me guess, you used to throw rocks at beehives as kid, just to see what happens... :lurk:
#5

[image: View Post]superfunkomatic, on 28 April 2011 - 05:34 PM, said:

Really, do we need a bike with over 150 HP? Is there any legal place in the world (maybe the Autobahn) to ride over say 120 kilometres an hour?
I've never really understood the draw of buying a Hayabusa or superbike - you can't legally ride it like it was designed.

Frankly if my insurance goes down because of a limit of 100 HP - I'm all for it. Plus maybe it will prevent more motorcycle accidents.

It won't be long before this thread deteriorates into a 'rights' argument, gun laws and the 'evil empire'. :laughing6-hehe:


+1.....couldn't agree more. Last time I crawled off a ZX10 I was left with two thoughts. First was......where is the nearest track? Second was how do they sell these thing to the genral public with a clear mind? The bike are truely awesome but needs to be on track. I've found the VFR to be plenty of street bike........plenty.Always has been always will be.
#6
I hope you do realize that half of that "Article" is an April fools joke from about.com......
#8

[image: View Post]MadScientist, on 28 April 2011 - 06:34 PM, said:

I hope you do realize that half of that "Article" is an April fools joke from about.com......


Yeah, but it would not surprise me if some day there is an attempt to limit HP, remember reading an article about an attempt to limit the HP years ago and some how motorcycle manufacturers convinced the government that the horsepower was an escape tool and it worked and I don't think it was a joke. Now there are bikes with two hundred horsepower that weigh a little over four hundred pounds and less than fourteen thousand dollars, do the math. Who knows what is going to happen but it would not be surprising.



#9
100 Bhp is not enough! A 5th or 6th gen VFR makes 108ish at the crank and around 100 (give or take a couple) at the tire...and yes, before people start piling on, for most circumstances it is enough but it does not make enough torque and therein lies the problem.

Torque is much more important to a rider on the street than absolute horsepower. Also, to get a great amount of torque (75 ft/lbs +) you either need a large engine or more power. If any of the governments insist on a horsepower limit a much more reasonbale number would be 140-150. That number enables bikes of all sizes and types enough room to be flexable for all missions and for all riders.


Yes, there are the people that would insist on having a completely unrestricted bike...and I can see the merit in that line of thinking. But, reality is reality, and governments have been allowed to intrude on our lives far too often in the past 70 years. Because of that intrusion, a culture has been set where people think its OK, and even desireable, for them to continue doing it.



Oh, and JMO, a stock 5th or 6th gen VFR really needs another 25 Bhp, 150 cc's, 15 ft/lbs of torque, an adjustable windshield, and adjustable handlebars (up to 4 inches above stock) to be the sport touring perfect bike.
#10
I think it's another conspiracy from the governments (which are all becoming more socialist these years, look at medicare!). Soon, they'll take over our live!!!! No wait! It's already too late... Sigh. Oh well. Might as well enjoy riding my VFR in the meantime.
C

Ps. With 100 hbp or so, I get over legal speeds in 3.5 sec. Enough for me.
#11

[image: View Post]PolarBear, on 28 April 2011 - 09:22 PM, said:

I think it's another conspiracy from the governments (which are all becoming more socialist these years, look at medicare!). Soon, they'll take over our live!!!! No wait! It's already too late... Sigh. Oh well. Might as well enjoy riding my VFR in the meantime.
C

Ps. With 100 hbp or so, I get over legal speeds in 3.5 sec. Enough for me.


But it's WAY more fun with 170bhp!!!!
#12
There is an easy solution to all this. Really easy.

Limit the top speed.

All bikes these days are basically computers with engines attached.
You can put 200hp in an engine, but as soon as it reaches 1XX mph, cut the fuel. Simple.

This way, you can have all the torque and HP you want. Until a certain speed.

This will satisfy both, the nannys in the gvmnt and the riders. The sane ones any ways.

Personally, I don't want to go 150 or more. Once or twice was enough for me.




[image: View Post]DDO-VFR, on 28 April 2011 - 05:53 PM, said:

let me guess, you used to throw rocks at beehives as kid, just to see what happens... :lurk:

That was me, actually. And wasps were involved :ohmy:
Just one of those things I HAD to experience for myself :dry: Once.
#13
Doesn't France and I think Japan already have 100hp limitations? I just read a comparison article on Motorcycle.com about the GSX1250FA from suzuki. gobs of torque down low but the engine petered off at 96hp. You look at the the dyno chart and it is quite clear that something kicks in and strangles the hp for the remaining RPMs. It could also but just a global marketing campain.
#14
The VFR1200 is not power restricted. It is top speed restricted at 250Km/h. My dyno chart tels that the bike has around 148 bhp at the back wheel. That is 170 hp at the crank. That is not not bad !

In 1st and 2nd gear below 4500 rpm it is torq restricted, a cheap traction control :biggrin:
Happyly all the restrictions are very easy removed. So Honda thanks for the effort .
#15
This is correct. France and Japan have a 100 HP limitation.
I drive a lot in France and 14 days ago I went to the Bol D'Or (Indurance race) in Magny-Cours. Driving my "standard" VFR 1200 in France gives you the same feeling driving a streetcar between NASCAR racecars. Almost every in France registrated motorcycle I saw had modifications. This country is really obsessed by motorcycle tuning and they all admit this has a lot to do with the 100 HP limitation. Although you can buy only motorcycles with max 100 HP (at the rear wheel), you can change as much as you want afterwards. Until now they had no annual motorcycle inspection (some European countries do). The French government wants to change this and the F�deration Fran�aise des Motards en Col�re ("Federation of Very Pissed French Motorcycle Drivers") (http://www.ffmc.asso.fr/) fights this with everything the can.
My conclusion: HP limitation has a reverse effect on people. You can see this when you come in Germany. Besides some adrenaline junkies, for most people "the idea" to have "a lot" of HP is "enough" and most of them will never use "all" of it.
#16
I'm waiting for the music from South Park's movie - "Blame Canada".
It's because of a socialist agenda to limit personal freedoms.
:laughing6-hehe:

[image: View Post]PolarBear, on 28 April 2011 - 09:22 PM, said:

I think it's another conspiracy from the governments (which are all becoming more socialist these years, look at medicare!). Soon, they'll take over our live!!!! No wait! It's already too late... Sigh. Oh well. Might as well enjoy riding my VFR in the meantime.
C

Ps. With 100 hbp or so, I get over legal speeds in 3.5 sec. Enough for me.

#17

[image: View Post]Rice, on 29 April 2011 - 08:16 AM, said:

There is an easy solution to all this. Really easy.

Limit the top speed.

All bikes these days are basically computers with engines attached.
You can put 200hp in an engine, but as soon as it reaches 1XX mph, cut the fuel. Simple.

This way, you can have all the torque and HP you want. Until a certain speed.

This will satisfy both, the nannys in the gvmnt and the riders. The sane ones any ways.

Personally, I don't want to go 150 or more. Once or twice was enough for me.






What's the point in the hp then? What's your selling point? Do you see? Speed sells, simple as that. The best example can think of is the BMW S1000RR and the Bugatti Veyron Super Sport, the BMW sells for about fourteen thousand dollars and the Bugatti about THREE MILLION DOLLARS. Huge price difference but performance, pretty gosh darn close, the Bugatti can keep up with the BMW off the line but at some point those turbos and SIXTEEN cylinders are going to take it away but the BMW CAN compete for a while and probably out corner it, at fourteen thousand dollars. Do the math!!


Maybe the above is a bad example but that's what I think it's all about. Hope they never do any kind of regulation, would like a Ducati some day but I would understand why, if they do.
#18
I don't really want anyone telling me how much HP to have.
They don't limit cars HP, only emissions.
I should be able to choose for myself how much horsepower I can afford.
And yes I did throw rocks at bee nest's. Fun as hell:)
#19

[image: View Post]PaleRider000, on 29 April 2011 - 03:27 PM, said:

I don't really want anyone telling me how much HP to have.
They don't limit cars HP, only emissions.
I should be able to choose for myself how much horsepower I can afford.
And yes I did throw rocks at bee nest's. Fun as hell:)

Support the AMA, and local mc groups that lobby for us. That's why the cars can get away with what we can't. I do! :fing02:
#20

[image: View Post]landlover, on 29 April 2011 - 03:02 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Rice, on 29 April 2011 - 08:16 AM, said:

There is an easy solution to all this. Really easy.

Limit the top speed.

All bikes these days are basically computers with engines attached.
You can put 200hp in an engine, but as soon as it reaches 1XX mph, cut the fuel. Simple.

This way, you can have all the torque and HP you want. Until a certain speed.

This will satisfy both, the nannys in the gvmnt and the riders. The sane ones any ways.

Personally, I don't want to go 150 or more. Once or twice was enough for me.






What's the point in the hp then? What's your selling point? Do you see? Speed sells, simple as that. The best example can think of is the BMW S1000RR and the Bugatti Veyron Super Sport, the BMW sells for about fourteen thousand dollars and the Bugatti about THREE MILLION DOLLARS. Huge price difference but performance, pretty gosh darn close, the Bugatti can keep up with the BMW off the line but at some point those turbos and SIXTEEN cylinders are going to take it away but the BMW CAN compete for a while and probably out corner it, at fourteen thousand dollars. Do the math!!


Maybe the above is a bad example but that's what I think it's all about. Hope they never do any kind of regulation, would like a Ducati some day but I would understand why, if they do.

I was watching Speed ch about a month ago and there was a car made for public roads that is just shy of 300 mph, and handled nice as well. Needless to say it was a lot of money. No.... I can't remember the name, I think It was Italian.
#21
Copied and saved... thanks... technically speaking if the new Veefalo
didn't weight so much with that silly $4000 / 40 pound shaft drive
Honda wound not have needed to up the size to 1200CC and then find out
that it produces too much grunt in the 1st and 2nd cogs that it needs a
silly intervention called "underpowering"... weight affects your
acceleration not top speed...
#22
At the same time "they" are limiting speed, power, etc. on motorcycles, anyone with the money and a drivers license can go buy a Chevrolet that will go 200mph. That's how it should be. :biggrin:

I could do just fine without as many people spending my tax money trying to save me from myself..... :491:
#23
First of all you should never throw rocks at a hornets nest unless you are with someone you can easily outrun.

Second, a motorcycle needs to be fast enough to get out of the way of the fastest cars. Time to unrestrict the hyper bikes. . . . . Not really, 186 MPH is 36 MPH faster than I've ever ridden before and the latest tornados are kicking up winds over 160 so you need a fast bike to escape the tornados.

Third, it's 3:18 PM and I need to be at the Duvall Grill and Tap Room at 4:00 PP so there. :beer:

I'll be walking, unrestricted.
#24

[image: View Post]PolarBear, on 28 April 2011 - 09:22 PM, said:

I think it's another conspiracy from the governments (which are all becoming more socialist these years, look at medicare!). Soon, they'll take over our live!!!! No wait! It's already too late... Sigh. Oh well. Might as well enjoy riding my VFR in the meantime.
C

Ps. With 100 hbp or so, I get over legal speeds in 3.5 sec. Enough for me.



What, you're on BC Medical (Now "Health Insurance BC") and you're opposed to Medicare? There are approximately 15 million more people without any health insurance in the USA than there are people in all of Canada. To rephrase, 50 million people in the USA have no health insurance. I'm one of them.
#25

[image: View Post]Monk, on 29 April 2011 - 03:41 PM, said:

I think It was Italian.



I'd think that woudl go without saying. :comp13:
#26

[image: View Post]choco, on 29 April 2011 - 05:27 PM, said:

[image: View Post]PolarBear, on 28 April 2011 - 09:22 PM, said:

I think it's another conspiracy from the governments (which are all becoming more socialist these years, look at medicare!). Soon, they'll take over our live!!!! No wait! It's already too late... Sigh. Oh well. Might as well enjoy riding my VFR in the meantime.
C

Ps. With 100 hbp or so, I get over legal speeds in 3.5 sec. Enough for me.



What, you're on BC Medical (Now "Health Insurance BC") and you're opposed to Medicare? There are approximately 15 million more people without any health insurance in the USA than there are people in all of Canada. To rephrase, 50 million people in the USA have no health insurance. I'm one of them.


And for that many people in the US to not be able to have decent access to healthcare is clear and utter failure of leadership as is the amount of money completely wasted and given away to people that hate the US. Cut out the waste of tax dollars, warfare involvement and cost where there is no win, and there wouldn't be many poor and unemployed people here. What's this have to do with VFR's?......anyone that has one paid too much for it (tax and weak dollar) and pays too much to fill up it's fuel tank among other things. We need to find another planet and start over with real motorcycles for sale in dealerships..... :ohmy:
#27
A new planet isn't going to help. It's the people...
Read enough science fiction to know :rolleyes:
#28

[image: View Post]Rice, on 30 April 2011 - 06:51 AM, said:

A new planet isn't going to help. It's the people...
Read enough science fiction to know :rolleyes:


I was hoping for Darwinism to run it's course as well but the process is too slow..... :491:
End of thread · 28 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 28 May 2011