Mixing Tires

My BattleAx 021s (I tell everybody that Bridgestone named them after my wife) are starting to cup on the fronts at only 2000 miles; not terribly badly, but a SHOCKING development which I am interpreting as an excuse to REPLACE the front tire, which I really do not like.

I HAD planned to switch to Michelin Road 2 or 3s on the REAR, and Michelin Power 2CTs FRONT. That's the trick combo for my Aprilia Futura, and apparently quite a lot of folks like it for the 1200 Viffer too.

The REAR BattleAx however still has lots of wear left and has NOT started to wear strangely (at least not yet), so my question is: has anybody tried a Michelin Power 2CT on the FRONT with the 021 rear??

I generally don't like mixing brands F&R, but I HAVE done it successfully, provided the softer tire is on the FRONT. Once I accidentally got Road (non 2CT) fronts and POWER 2CT rear on the Futura, and that combo actually "plowed" (understeered or "pushed") mercilessly. Quite scary fighting the front end through corners.

If nobody has tried it, I guess I will and will report back. Provided I make it through the first corner down the street.

[image: View Post]hareynolds, on 08 October 2011 - 07:56 PM, said:

My BattleAx 021s (I tell everybody that Bridgestone named them after my wife) are starting to cup on the fronts at only 2000 miles; not terribly badly, but a SHOCKING development which I am interpreting as an excuse to REPLACE the front tire, which I really do not like.

I HAD planned to switch to Michelin Road 2 or 3s on the REAR, and Michelin Power 2CTs FRONT. That's the trick combo for my Aprilia Futura, and apparently quite a lot of folks like it for the 1200 Viffer too.

The REAR BattleAx however still has lots of wear left and has NOT started to wear strangely (at least not yet), so my question is: has anybody tried a Michelin Power 2CT on the FRONT with the 021 rear??

I generally don't like mixing brands F&R, but I HAVE done it successfully, provided the softer tire is on the FRONT. Once I accidentally got Road (non 2CT) fronts and POWER 2CT rear on the Futura, and that combo actually "plowed" (understeered or "pushed") mercilessly. Quite scary fighting the front end through corners.

If nobody has tried it, I guess I will and will report back. Provided I make it through the first corner down the street.


Run the original Power front, perfect match for bt21 rear. While the 2ctpower, may be sticker on the sides, also going to wear faster, and the tire is triangulated enough, as in quick turn in. Power front can be run all the way to the core.

I would check your tire pressure, underinflation will cupp you tires fast. Moreover, the PP2's would be a better choice for the front since it has the harder cmpd in the middle and softer on the sides. Since you are using a older rear tire they should wear closely.

Mark

[image: View Post]Millertm, on 09 October 2011 - 12:56 AM, said:

I would check your tire pressure, underinflation will cupp you tires fast. Moreover, the PP2's would be a better choice for the front since it has the harder cmpd in the middle and softer on the sides. Since you are using a older rear tire they should wear closely.

Mark


Agreed on the underinflation, but that's exactly what is so disturbing. I am not a particularly religious guy EXCEPT about motorbike tire pressures.
I generally like to run ~2 psi above the recommended pressure on radials to stiffen the sidewalls a bit, and I check pressures STONE COLD (or as close as we get in Houston) twice a week with one of those expensive and accurate 60 psi dial gauges.

If anything the BattleAxes have been run at pressures that were too HIGH. First, when I GOT the bike from the dealer the fronts were ~42 psi (against a sticker of 36 psi), THEN I tried my standard +2 psi (about 38 psi), finally have been at the recommended 36 psi for the last 1000 miles.

The cupping LOOKS like what you'd see with a loose steering bearing, but the front end is tight. Pressures are correct OR too high, NOT too low. Balance is dead-nuts perfect.

My theory is that the belts in the front tire are not stable enough under cornering with this bike (i.e above average corning speeds and lean angle for its weight), so there's some "belt shimmy" (to coin a phrase) resulting in cupping. That is, just like you'd see with an underinflated tire, but in this case it's a structural (or maybe quality) problem. Anybody got another theory??? In any case, the cupping isn't bad enough to justify replacing the tire, but it's a damned fine excuse. Besides, I ain't gettin' any younger; might as well get this bike sorted as soon as possible.

I chewed-up a rear Michelin Pilot ROAD (non-2CT) on the Futura (just over 500 lbs wet) in about 5500 miles (not too bad) but only the middle 1/3 was down below the wear bars. This COULD be blamed on my old-man riding style (I rarely get a knee down when commuting, what a wuss) -OR- the fact that Texas Roads are HOT, STRAIGHT, and many are Brushed Concrete. [Wear All The Gear All The Time, cause "stepping off" on that stuff ain't gonna be pretty.] For Texas riding, the 2CT concept is perfect since the softer side patches actually offer both better cornering AND more-even tire wear (that is, much less pronounced "flattening").

Plus, as Mark MillerTm points out, there's a pretty good chance of even wear with the BattleAx rear.

My real question is whether the two tires (BattleAx rear and Michelin Pilot Power 2CT front) will co-exist without displaying any wierd (or worse, surprising) habits. My guess is no, and turn-in should be much improved.

The only downside I anticipate for the target PP2 front / PR2 rear "trick" combination is that both tires will wear-out at about the same time (no 2 fronts for every rear), but I figure that's a small price to pay for the improved handling.

Just to throw another log on the fire, I'm also a big fan of Pirellis; Sport Demons are my very favorite bias ply tire for airheads, old Guzzis, etc, and the Corsa IIIs on the Dorsoduro just make me smile every time I ride on them. Any fans of Angels for this application?? Just askin'

Its normal for BT21 front to cup, its a pos tire, your not the first nor the last to complain about BT21 front

[image: View Post]spud786, on 09 October 2011 - 03:18 PM, said:

Its normal for BT21 front to cup, its a pos tire, your not the first nor the last to complain about BT21 front


Also I say original Ppower, vfr will wear 2ct on the side too fast, you'll end up with a very steep profile that will handle like CHIT!!!!

Ive ran the bt21 rear and original ppower front many times, its a very quick package, if you like the real tight stuff

I noticed your in Houston, thats like florida, Power 2ct will be fine, you wont be on the sides enough to be an issue, more than likely.


But that road 2 rear, is the longest lasting on the market, that also offers very good traction in all conditions.

Im willing to bet the road 3 comes up short in life comparision, maybe a better rain tire, but road 2 is decent enough.

[image: View Post]spud786, on 09 October 2011 - 03:23 PM, said:

[image: View Post]spud786, on 09 October 2011 - 03:18 PM, said:

Its normal for BT21 front to cup, its a pos tire, your not the first nor the last to complain about BT21 front


Also I say original Ppower, vfr will wear 2ct on the side too fast, you'll end up with a very steep profile that will handle like CHIT!!!!

Ive ran the bt21 rear and original ppower front many times, its a very quick package, if you like the real tight stuff


I really like twisty stuff, but frankly we don't HAVE any. SPUD 786 has it about right; we're on the edges so infrequently it's like a little party when we go around a corner (taking the inside line around a pack of Harleys, for example)

If I were in Austin, where there actually ARE some corners, I think the straight Powers would be correct. But here in Houston we have a (mild) corner every few MILES. The closest we get to "twisties" are decreasing radius entrance ramps. EVERYBODY here worries about flattening the crown. Honestly, I have never heard of a Houston rider scrubbing off the edges, except of course if we're talking TRACK time.

Further, this will be my "winter" (sic) front tire, so a softer compound is definitely called-for.

The PP2CT is on order, for better or worse, and I'll report back when it's mounted.

As an aside, I haven't heard anybody say that either of the OEM tires on the VFR1200F (Qualifiers and BattleAxes, IIRC) are anything better than mediocre tires. Am I wrong to wonder why Honda didn't spend $10 more and put Pilot ROAD 2CTs (the 3's weren't out yet) on there??
In my experience, the Roads aren't spectacular tires, but they are very predictable and great in the wet, and I've never heard anybody call them POS tires. Just curious.

Seems like Honda, normally puts Highway tires on bikes like the VFR. I just realized your on a 1200, with some of these sport tires, I believe Bike weight becomes an issue at a certain point. But the Ppower front is a known solid tire, and if you do have issue with the dual compound front, there's always the original.

Original pilot road, nowdays, they are slated as highway tires, My issue, I ride by feel, I dont rely on tires. So the Original Proads were so vaque feeling and inaccurate, I couldnt read the road surface well, they did have okay tracton and life. But I wont touch them with a ten foot pole. >G

This morning I switched from the BattleAx 021 front to a Michelin Pilot Power 2CT (just as the weather has "turned", which in Houston means morning lows in the high 50s and highs in the low 80s. Quite nice, actually, and easier on tyres than summer 97+ deg F.) The Rear is still the BattleAxe 021, which seems to be doing pretty well at 2K miles.

I'm hoping that this combination will wear-out at about the same time, at which point I'll go to PP2 front and PR2 rear.

The PP2 front behaves pretty much as expected. Same straight-line stability as the BattleAxes, but turn-in is MUCH better, and (more importantly) PROGRESSIVE; push it down deep in a mid-speed corner and it just does what's asked without complaining. The Battleaxe front in the same corners wanted to take a time-out to TALK ABOUT IT. Surprisingly, I didn't notice any over-steer tendencies from the 021 rear; it seemed very neutral and predictable, even when I dove into corners a little too fast to see how they behaved.

Here's a photo of the mounted PP2CT (with the chicken strips) at about 50 miles compared to the (unmounted) BattleAxe at just over 2000 miles.

Note the "cupping" or "scalloping" on the shoulders of the Battleaxe. Note also how the PP2CT profile is more nearly a perfect parabola, while the Battleax is much rounder (taking into account that the BattleAxe isn't mounted). I suspect that the lower weight of the PP2CT, combined with the more-parabolic shape, is what makes it handle so nicely.

As far as load ratings, a "58" (as in 58W) is rated for a load of 520 lbs. IIRC that's the same load rating as the OEM BattleAxe 021s or Dunlop Qualifiers. Assuming a 50-50 distribution (F-R) I would have to get the GVW of the bike above 1040 lbs. I guess I better warn the wife that she's gotta stay below 17 Stone.

Attached Thumbnails

• [image: Attached Image: BattleAx 021 and PP2CT Small.jpg]