The Rider Risk Video Series

http://www.youtube.com/user/riderrisk#p/u/7/SF1ezf8LNNU

I.e Counter Steering :tour:

http://www.youtube.com/user/riderrisk#p/u/7/SF1ezf8LNNU

very informative...and on a VFR!

Thanks Dutchy! Look forward to watching all these when I should be working...LOL

Nice refresher........ Watched all of them...

great videos thanks for sharing!

:+1:

Great stuff!!!

+1

Thnx for the link!

Reminds of some footage shown on the

Such good stuff! :+1:

-Mike

MMMMMM ........ Yummy, More good stuff.... Thx

Countersteering isn't something you can choose to do or not to do, you must do it or you will crash at the first corner you come to, most likely before. Countersteering is simply the principle upon which all bicycles and motorcycles operate. Even the slowest and widest turns can only be initiated by a countersteer.

Long gentle curve on the interstate, or quickly dodging around a pot hole, all done with varying degrees of counter steer.

Tamworth

Countersteering isn't something you can choose to do or not to do, you must do it or you will crash at the first corner you come to, most likely before. Countersteering is simply the principle upon which all bicycles and motorcycles operate. Even the slowest and widest turns can only be initiated by a countersteer.

Long gentle curve on the interstate, or quickly dodging around a pot hole, all done with varying degrees of counter steer.

UH...OH .......... :excl:

Uh, oh is right Monk! Any graduates of CLASS and Reg Pridmore care to take this one? I'm definately in the CS camp but ..........!

I've been practicing this, and it's a challenge to stay focused on the concept with so much going on around you. It's definitely not natural. Guess it will just take time to become a 'way of thinking'. I've conquered enough bad habits, so this good one should be doable.

91rc

I've been practicing this, and it's a challenge to stay focused on the concept with so much going on around you. It's definitely not natural. Guess it will just take time to become a 'way of thinking'. I've conquered enough bad habits, so this good one should be doable.

I'll take this one......... CS is something that needs to be not only thought about, but done as a normal act of riding, if for no other reason than when the time comes to move out of the way, you don't want to have to think about it, or you'll steer into what you wanted to avoid.

People that ride and don't use CS but use leaning, will in a time of panic, will try to steer the mc like a car, there-by going the wrong way.

Yes I know we all CS, I'm talking about the action of doing it consciously.

Monk

91rc

I've been practicing this, and it's a challenge to stay focused on the concept with so much going on around you. It's definitely not natural. Guess it will just take time to become a 'way of thinking'. I've conquered enough bad habits, so this good one should be doable.

I'll take this one......... CS is something that needs to be not only thought about, but done as a normal act of riding, if for no other reason than when the time comes to move out of the way, you don't want to have to think about it, or you'll steer into what you wanted to avoid.

People that ride and don't use CS but use leaning, will in a time of panic, will try to steer the mc like a car, there-by going the wrong way.

Yes I know we all CS, I'm talking about the action of doing it consciously.

91rc

Monk

91rc

I've been practicing this, and it's a challenge to stay focused on the concept with so much going on around you. It's definitely not natural. Guess it will just take time to become a 'way of thinking'. I've conquered enough bad habits, so this good one should be doable.

I'll take this one......... CS is something that needs to be not only thought about, but done as a normal act of riding, if for no other reason than when the time comes to move out of the way, you don't want to have to think about it, or you'll steer into what you wanted to avoid.

People that ride and don't use CS but use leaning, will in a time of panic, will try to steer the mc like a car, there-by going the wrong way.

Yes I know we all CS, I'm talking about the action of doing it consciously.

I understand that we all CS....but it's one thing to consciously do it when everything is 'normal'.....and another thing to CS when coming into a turn too hot unexpectedly. This recently happened to me on an unfamiliar road, and I panicked. I didnt go down, but SR #s 1-7 kicked in. Counter steering never entered my mind.

That's why we need to practice doing it til it isn't something we have to think about. But to get to there, we do have to think about it.

It's like anything we do it will need work til it "is" natual.

Back in the 80's they found in motorcycle crash investigations that over 75-80% of M/C riders "Turned Into the Object they were trying to avoid", in other words they did NOT Counter Steer and crashed!

CS is probably one of if not the single most important thing to learn as a rider and Has to be second nature to you as there's No time to think about what to do in an emergency for the most part.

These riders turned the bars away from the object they were trying to avoid(car) which resulted in turning right into that object!

There is No quicker way to get a m/c to change direction than C/S.

C/S only starts to take effect after a minimum speed/mph is achieved which is fairly low (10-20 mph?), but it is after whatever that speed is where the Gyro effect of the spinning front wheel comes into effect that C/S can take place .

Below that speed you would Counter Weight, not Counter Steer like in parking lot maneuvers.

IMO once you learn to look through a turn and apply C/S both your speed and confidence levels on a bike will doubled! :tour:

Thanks Monk, lots of great stuff in here!

BR

91rc

I've been practicing this, and it's a challenge to stay focused on the concept with so much going on around you. It's definitely not natural. Guess it will just take time to become a 'way of thinking'. I've conquered enough bad habits, so this good one should be doable.

It's Very simple! Think PUSH Right, Go right. PUSH Left, Go Left! That's it!

Baileyrock

91rc

I've been practicing this, and it's a challenge to stay focused on the concept with so much going on around you. It's definitely not natural. Guess it will just take time to become a 'way of thinking'. I've conquered enough bad habits, so this good one should be doable.

It's Very simple! Think PUSH Right, Go right. PUSH Left, Go Left! That's it!

Very usefull stuff. Thanks for share.

For some scenes, I need to replay as not so familiar with lefthand riding.

About cornering, I think the VFRDians should change our tire to Sport type, instead of the Sport-touring type, if you like to ride on the flat/twisty road rather than the rough surface road. The Sport tire makes the cornering more smoothly than the Sport-touring tire because of its lower profile.

91rc

Baileyrock

91rc

I've been practicing this, and it's a challenge to stay focused on the concept with so much going on around you. It's definitely not natural. Guess it will just take time to become a 'way of thinking'. I've conquered enough bad habits, so this good one should be doable.

It's Very simple! Think PUSH Right, Go right. PUSH Left, Go Left! That's it!

:tour: PUSH RIGHT....GO RIGHT.....PUSH LEFT....GO LEFT :fing02:

Let us know how that works for you! :smile:

Baileyrock

91rc

Baileyrock

91rc

I've been practicing this, and it's a challenge to stay focused on the concept with so much going on around you. It's definitely not natural. Guess it will just take time to become a 'way of thinking'. I've conquered enough bad habits, so this good one should be doable.

It's Very simple! Think PUSH Right, Go right. PUSH Left, Go Left! That's it!

:tour: PUSH RIGHT....GO RIGHT.....PUSH LEFT....GO LEFT :fing02:

Let us know how that works for you! :smile:

91rc

Already working on it during my 40 mile commute today....I push right, and I go right! Been leaning waaaay too much.

Cool, really for almost all but extremely fast street riding you can just sit straight upright and C/S on most rides. I can ride fairly quick doing this myself, I only lean when I'm really starting to push it. :tour:

BR

Baileyrock

snip

C/S only starts to take effect after a minimum speed/mph is achieved which is fairly low (10-20 mph?), but it is after whatever that speed is where the Gyro effect of the spinning front wheel comes into effect that C/S can take place .

Below that speed you would Counter Weight, not Counter Steer like in parking lot maneuvers.

IMO once you learn to look through a turn and apply C/S both your speed and confidence levels on a bike will doubled! :tour:

Thanks Monk, lots of great stuff in here!

BR

CS begins the second you start moving, it's the only possible method of keeping the bike from falling over. it is the very first handlebar input you make the second your wheels start rotating. Try and pull out of your driveway without CS, can't be done, it's the only way to keep your balance as you leave the driveway and turn on to the street, and the only way to straighten up once you're on the street.

Try and ride at a walking pace or slower, only CS and lots of it will keep you upright. The video is simply talking about a more forceful CS input for certain occasions, something we've all used to swerve around potholes in town.

No amount of weight shifting alone is going to get the bike to turn in any meaningful time frame, at any speed, without being accompanied by CS.

At speed the gyro effect does enhance the CS effect in all the right ways, with the gyro effect forcing the bike over and dampening out the process, but at low speeds it's also needed constantly to simply keep the wheels under the bike

Tamworth

Baileyrock

snip

C/S only starts to take effect after a minimum speed/mph is achieved which is fairly low (10-20 mph?), but it is after whatever that speed is where the Gyro effect of the spinning front wheel comes into effect that C/S can take place .

Below that speed you would Counter Weight, not Counter Steer like in parking lot maneuvers.

IMO once you learn to look through a turn and apply C/S both your speed and confidence levels on a bike will doubled! :tour:

Thanks Monk, lots of great stuff in here!

BR

CS begins the second you start moving, it's the only possible method of keeping the bike from falling over. it is the very first handlebar input you make the second your wheels start rotating. Try and pull out of your driveway without CS, can't be done, it's the only way to keep your balance as you leave the driveway and turn on to the street, and the only way to straighten up once you're on the street.

Try and ride at a walking pace or slower, only CS and lots of it will keep you upright. The video is simply talking about a more forceful CS input for certain occasions, something we've all used to swerve around potholes in town.

No amount of weight shifting alone is going to get the bike to turn in any meaningful time frame, at any speed, without being accompanied by CS.

At speed the gyro effect does enhance the CS effect in all the right ways, with the gyro effect forcing the bike over and dampening out the process, but at low speeds it's also needed constantly to simply keep the wheels under the bike

I'm sorry, but I think you are either using the wrong terminology or are very confused on the subject of Counter Steering in general! :ph34r:

"CS begins the second you start moving" There is No C/S ever if your moving in a straight line and no imput is applied to the bars. C/S is the act of turning.

At low speeds(before the front wheel is rotating fast enough to act like a gyro (it's actually the gyro effect of the front wheel at speed that causes the C/S effect if I'm not mistaken)) like in parking lots if you want to turn right you turn the bars to the right to go right. Try that after whatever speed C/S's gyro effect starts and you'll go Left with the same input(turning the bars to the right)!

So if I understand you correctly, if you want to turn right out of your driveway on your bicycle or motorcycle "you would turn the bars to the left?" :huh:

.

BR

Tamworth..... The reason I went with the UH-OH, is anytime this subject is brought up, there are a lot of different comments about it. Basicly, "we, that know CS takes place with, or without our knowledge", there are people that are still riding, that even though they are CS'ing, are not doing it knowingly, and it is important that these peeps become aware of it, so they can practice it knowingly, so when the time comes they'll do it in an emergency.

What happens is that people that don't know they are CS think they are turning by leaning. We all know that when we lean that we are not only tilting the bike, but in leaning there is a input to the bars that CS'rs it as well even if we don't know we're doing it. So in lies the danger in an emergency, because if they don't learn the "push left/go left", they are going to jerk the bars in the same manner as a car driver.

So it's not a debate over if it works, it's a awareness thing for those that don't know.

Back in the 60's and early 70's I put over a 100k miles on one of my bikes and never knew what counter steering was. It's amazing I'm still alive.

But.... you're not preaching to the choir, there peeps still out here that haven't gone to choir practice yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Baileyrock

Tamworth

Baileyrock

snip

C/S only starts to take effect after a minimum speed/mph is achieved which is fairly low (10-20 mph?), but it is after whatever that speed is where the Gyro effect of the spinning front wheel comes into effect that C/S can take place .

Below that speed you would Counter Weight, not Counter Steer like in parking lot maneuvers.

IMO once you learn to look through a turn and apply C/S both your speed and confidence levels on a bike will doubled! :tour:

Thanks Monk, lots of great stuff in here!

BR

CS begins the second you start moving, it's the only possible method of keeping the bike from falling over. it is the very first handlebar input you make the second your wheels start rotating. Try and pull out of your driveway without CS, can't be done, it's the only way to keep your balance as you leave the driveway and turn on to the street, and the only way to straighten up once you're on the street.

Try and ride at a walking pace or slower, only CS and lots of it will keep you upright. The video is simply talking about a more forceful CS input for certain occasions, something we've all used to swerve around potholes in town.

No amount of weight shifting alone is going to get the bike to turn in any meaningful time frame, at any speed, without being accompanied by CS.

At speed the gyro effect does enhance the CS effect in all the right ways, with the gyro effect forcing the bike over and dampening out the process, but at low speeds it's also needed constantly to simply keep the wheels under the bike

I'm sorry, but I think you are either using the wrong terminology or are very confused on the subject of Counter Steering in general! :ph34r:

"CS begins the second you start moving" There is No C/S ever if your moving in a straight line and no imput is applied to the bars. C/S is the act of turning.

At low speeds(before the front wheel is rotating fast enough to act like a gyro (it's actually the gyro effect of the front wheel at speed that causes the C/S effect if I'm not mistaken)) like in parking lots if you want to turn right you turn the bars to the right to go right. Try that after whatever speed C/S's gyro effect starts and you'll go Left with the same input(turning the bars to the right)!

So if I understand you correctly, if you want to turn right out of your driveway on your bicycle or motorcycle "you would turn the bars to the left?" :huh:

.

BR

Yes, you CS in a straight line, that's what keeps you going in a straight line, if you drift to one side you need CS to straighten out. In a parking lot, or at that speed a turn will always require turning the bars in the direction of the turn, but that turn will always be initiated by a slight CS. Now depending on the exact lean and state of the bike you may not require the actual CS to initiate the turn, but you will certainly use CS to straighten out after the turn.

The gyro effect of a fast spinning wheel is not necessarily linked to CS. CS takes place virtually 100% of the time the bike is moving. All the riders on this forum are already excellent counter steerers. I just don't believe any rider would mistakenly turn the bars in the wrong direction in a panic situation, any more than they would on a bicycle.

Good stuff! I bet you would be surprised at just how many riders have no known clue what C/S is and how it affects us as riders. I should start a Poll! :rolleyes:

After learning the basics of counter steering to enter the turn what is even more fascinating about this technique is counter steering to exit the corner! Now we're having even more fun! I'm sorry if I got off topic, this started as a safety thread didn't it?

motorman

After learning the basics of counter steering to enter the turn what is even more fascinating about this technique is counter steering to exit the corner! Now we're having even more fun! I'm sorry if I got off topic, this started as a safety thread didn't it?

Actually, I think just talking about any of this stuff is working as a safety topic, anything we can learn is going to be better for us on the road.

CS-ing out of a turn, or working on CS at different points of a turn for the purpose of learning/practice/etc..... just like practicing panic stops. I practice cs in the middle of a turn as well, or changing from leaning into the turn, to leaning out side the turn( being able to change mid turn without upsetting the bike). As there are advantages to our doing in or out body leans on the road.

Total Control: High Performance Street Riding Techniques Parks, Lee

I'm reading the book above and Lee talks a lot about countersteering and how much your hands actually fight each other while turning. By following his practice routine you eventually get to the point where you don't really use your opposite hand (Push Right go right = your left is almost not touching the handlebar) is pretty much free.

I'd reccomend for any noob's that aren't comfortable with it to check the book out. Great read and a lot of good info on how countersteering does affect suspension, tire choice, etc.

Great post, thanks!

How can I download these videos?

I agree, that we CS sub-conciously, Because I know I do it without thought on my Bicycle, & every tyme I try to do it conciously I about wreck because I over think cause & effect. Doing so on a motorcycle, actually intimidates me a bit, but I know I need to learn to do this conciously!