Sport riding while staying seated

Since there's a lot of ppl that can ride while hanging off with a knee dragging, there are also ppl that don't, and doing it either way allows room for technical improvement.

As in a lot of sports there's information that just doesn't get out to the general puplic. I thought I was pretty well informed about American football until I meet a couple a few years back(70's). Turns out the Wife was the Daughter of Chuck Knox(coach for u peeps that don't know him). I learned way more about the game from watching Monday night football with them.

Which, ever since, has lead me on the path that while somethings are assumed by sports-casters, or other ppl, there is a lot of stuff that just isn't brought up, due to a verity of reasons(like thinking everyone should know this stuff,etc).

So this is for ppl that may not know all the answers.

Sport riding while not sliding side to side in the seat can actually get better with a few pointers on how, and where to place your wt......1st is to lean the upper body toward the inside of a turn(and foward as well).....2nd is to wt. the inside and unwt. the outside of our butts(left turn/left cheek)..... 3rd is to wt. the inside footpeg while we unwt. the outside...... 4th push steering the inside hand-grip without any "unknown" help from the other hand(keith Code).

An alternate riding style is to go though switch-backs by steering the bike while seating on the seat dirt riding style(sit straddling a pipe without using your hands).  


[image: index.php?app=gallery&module=images&section=img_ctrl&img=391] Photo1.jpg Album: Texas Mac "2009" Uploaded 16 Jun 2009 - 21:01

"Kiss the mirror" works for me.  Lean forward and to the inside as if you were trying to kiss the mirror.

Interesting topic.  In November i did a coldish wet track day.  One of the rider coaches schooled me on turning the bike with my lower body much like Monk described eschewing countersteering due the cold wet track...it works!  Using weight on the inside peg and heel actually pressing in and using outside knee pulling in against tank.  Pretty cool how you can turn the bike with no conscious counter steering.

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There are many books written on sport riding.  In my experience, not moving around on the seat and moving weight appropriately doesn't leave enough room for error or quick adjustments if needed.  There, that's my book.... :smile:

Every see Reg Pridgemore blast a VFR around a track?  He always seemed to be sitting up not moving, and yet he would lap everybody even 2 up.

Isn't this commonly referred to as "The Pace"??

[image: View Post]Metallican525, on 26 January 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Isn't this commonly referred to as "The Pace"??

Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.

[image: View Post]Metallican525, on 26 January 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Isn't this commonly referred to as "The Pace"??

I don't think that's referring to the same thing. This tpoic is more about riding style and technique.

[image: View Post]Bent, on 26 January 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

There are many books written on sport riding.  In my experience, not moving around on the seat and moving weight appropriately doesn't leave enough room for error or quick adjustments if needed.  There, that's my book.... :smile:

I can say I learned the hard way. I rode mostly like Monk described for a while. More to get a good feel for how the bike feels when it's really leaned over. Got to the point where I was fairly comfortable touching and occasional dragging a peg through a turn. Then I ran into a hairpin that I went in a little too fast. Not the easiest thing to do to get your butt off the seat and over the bike when you're already leaned over in a turn.

[image: View Post]YoshiHNS, on 26 January 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Bent, on 26 January 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

There are many books written on sport riding.  In my experience, not moving around on the seat and moving weight appropriately doesn't leave enough room for error or quick adjustments if needed.  There, that's my book.... :smile:

I can say I learned the hard way. I rode mostly like Monk described for a while. More to get a good feel for how the bike feels when it's really leaned over. Got to the point where I was fairly comfortable touching and occasional dragging a peg through a turn. Then I ran into a hairpin that I went in a little too fast. Not the easiest thing to do to get your butt off the seat and over the bike when you're already leaned over in a turn.

Clarification:  For me, I prefer to really move off the seat and use my upper body position (head to mirror) anytime I am doing spirited riding or in the curves. I only mentioned what I had been shown as a method for turning the bike more safely on a wet, cold road surface.  The gist from the riding coach was that countersteering inputs alone will make one more apt to low side in those conditions.  Any thoughts on that line of thinking?

Other than making it a bit less obvious the cop passing you the other way, I don't see the point in not hustling around on the bike if you're 'sport riding'. I don't have a lot of 'oh crap' moments on the bike anymore, but when I do, it's usually because I went into a corner a bit too hot and too lazy (dangerous combination), and find myself without options to adjust mid-corner that I would have if I were 'hanging off'. Of course, I realize that most of these instances aren't an issue of physical limitations so much as having the confidence in myself and the bike to make it through, but the end result from either cause can still be the same.

Don't get me wrong, though. I totally get the benefit in learning these techniques and being able to apply them. You never know when you'll be out farting around (or riding 2-up) and need the ability to get the bike to handle without having time to drop off the seat. But, if I'm on the track or out in the mountains carving it up, you can bet I'm hustling myself and that bike around as much as possible. Not so much for the speed, but because moving around the bike gives me more confidence in the corner since I have more options to adjust should something not be going right.

Mike

I'll throw in my oldeguy comment to this interesting topic. I've done a bit of roadracing, and can say with some confidence that on a dry track the only way to get the ultimate speed is to get your ass off the seat. You develop muscle memory that allows you to use your knee as a 'feeler' to tell you how close you are to dragging hard things (and to avoid that problem). The object of getting your butt over the side is to get the center of mass as close to the ground as possible, which reduces the turning radius at a given speed. That's the simple nuts and bolts of why racers do it.

On the street I don't hang off unless I've done something dumb - like going into a corner way too hot. I figure if I'm going fast enough to *need* the benefit then I'm going too fast to be safe on the street.

You are all correct.
Really.

I feel that like in many areas of life, it is best to learn many different techniques and approaches so that one can apply whatever technique is best for any given situation. The key is to learn all techniques well enough so that one can instantly shift to the best approach, especially in an emergency situation.

Hanging off the inside of the bike allows you to take a given corner at a specific speed while using less lean angle than if you were taking that same corner at the same speed while not hanging off.  This allows you to use up less of the available traction and maintain a greater contact patch.

It is just another technique that one may or may not choose to adapt.  On the track is is a must for high speed cornering.

[image: Posted Image]

[image: View Post]FoothillRyder, on 27 January 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

I'll throw in my oldeguy comment to this interesting topic. I've done a bit of roadracing, and can say with some confidence that on a dry track the only way to get the ultimate speed is to get your ass off the seat. You develop muscle memory that allows you to use your knee as a 'feeler' to tell you how close you are to dragging hard things (and to avoid that problem). The object of getting your butt over the side is to get the center of mass as close to the ground as possible, which reduces the turning radius at a given speed. That's the simple nuts and bolts of why racers do it.

On the street I don't hang off unless I've done something dumb - like going into a corner way too hot. I figure if I'm going fast enough to *need* the benefit then I'm going too fast to be safe on the street.


This is why I brought it up.....Thank you......... I'm just saying between knee dragging and sitting upright without any body english, that there is an option for the riders that don't/won't/can't do the seat sliding technique. I'm not saying that lower body english isn't the best, etc. I'm relaying an option for ppl that have no intention of moving off the seat to better their control and bike lean angles by at least doing more with the upper body.

If you are a person that doesn't move on the seat, wouldn't you want to know that there is some more you can do that fits into your/the stagnant sitting position. We can get into the benefits of hanging off the bike and make a good thread out of it, but this is about how much benefit can be gained from upper body use english, vs's none.

I'm sure everyone that wheighs in on this wants everyone to know they're kneedraggers, but there are ppl that aren't and this thread was posted to give them an "option" to improve. For the same reason there is useful knowledge to knowing how to drag a knee properly for ppl that don't know how to do that either............ Then there's the sticking out the straight leg that some racers have picked up from Val that I haven't seen anyone doing on the street.

[image: View Post]FoothillRyder, on 27 January 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

I'll throw in my oldeguy comment to this interesting topic. I've done a bit of roadracing, and can say with some confidence that on a dry track the only way to get the ultimate speed is to get your ass off the seat. You develop muscle memory that allows you to use your knee as a 'feeler' to tell you how close you are to dragging hard things (and to avoid that problem). The object of getting your butt over the side is to get the center of mass as close to the ground as possible, which reduces the turning radius at a given speed. That's the simple nuts and bolts of why racers do it.

On the street I don't hang off unless I've done something dumb - like going into a corner way too hot. I figure if I'm going fast enough to *need* the benefit then I'm going too fast to be safe on the street.

Excellent!!

Same here, on the track I'm like a monkey all over the bike, wearing down knee pucks and having a blast.
On the street i can out ride more than half the guys out there in the twistires and hardly move my butt!
A fairly rapid Pace can be run just sitting upright and countersteering, pushing down into the pegs allow the bike to move even easier below you and just a slight amount upper body movement makes it even easier.
Only when I'm riding with the fastest group at events like the T-mac do I start to hang a little, mostly for a better safety margin running at a much Higher Pace.

BR

[image: View Post]johnmark101, on 27 January 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Hanging off the inside of the bike allows you to take a given corner at a specific speed while using less lean angle than if you were taking that same corner at the same speed while not hanging off.  This allows you to use up less of the available traction and maintain a greater contact patch.
Exactly the same thing, yes? :)

[image: View Post]johnmark101, on 27 January 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

It is just another technique that one may or may not choose to adapt.  On the track is is a must for high speed cornering.

Yep. IMHO, you should never be going so fast on the street that hanging off is required; but if you're experienced and sufficiently savvy to do it in lieu of leaning the bike, then go for it.

[image: View Post]Bent, on 26 January 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

There are many books written on sport riding.  In my experience, not moving around on the seat and moving weight appropriately doesn't leave enough room for error or quick adjustments if needed.  There, that's my book.... :smile:
I agree with Bent. (No suprise since he taught me.)  I do not drag knees (no pucks and I'm don't want to wear out the knees of my riding suits). Knee dragging is not synonymous with hanging off. I have found being off the seat to the inside keeps the machine more upright and gives me, like Bent said, more options/freedom to change your cornering potential faster, whether you need to tighten the corner or ease out some. Bottom line: it is safer.

[image: View Post]Monk, on 26 January 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Metallican525, on 26 January 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Isn't this commonly referred to as "The Pace"??

Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.

I apologise if that came across as insulting Monk, I did not intend it that way.  Not the same, just really similar.  I'm all about riding technique and did not mean to crap on your discussion.

Metallican525.... Non needed......... I for one am not known to follow a topic without some variance. My repounce was to let you know I'm hearing you, and with a good since of humor.
I'm a pace rider myself..... It just doesn't cover my 4 points of how to make a couch-potato active.
Bringing up similarities will help the overall discusion, even if having to say that's not the point.

I spend most of my time riding working technic over and over in my mind, for no other reason than I don't have to think about anything but riding, which is relaxing to me. Just like to pass some of these points along(and am not claiming that they're mine alone, but can be from an outside source I've read about/seen then worked  on myself to see if it works for me.

I like and use conedodger's "kiss the mirror" technique which involves some seat movement without necessarily knee dragging.  I remember attending a CSB school some years back where Mr. Code made a statement that you don't have to drag a knee to go fast, but on the track it can be helpful to offset the extreme centrifugal forces of entering a turn at high speed.  And, yeah, I think he has a good point there.

[image: View Post]dendron, on 29 January 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

I like and use conedodger's "kiss the mirror" technique which involves some seat movement without necessarily knee dragging.  I remember attending a CSB school some years back where Mr. Code made a statement that you don't have to drag a knee to go fast, but on the track it can be helpful to offset the extreme centrifugal forces of entering a turn at high speed.  And, yeah, I think he has a point there.

I took KC's 3 day course back in the early 80's when he came though Colorado, best thing I ever did, just learning about frt-braking/counter-steering/and choosing how many fingers to use on the frt brake for what you want to do, "It's harder to low-side using one finger than 3".... He turned my riding around 180º...........

[image: View Post]Monk, on 29 January 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

[image: View Post]dendron, on 29 January 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

I like and use conedodger's "kiss the mirror" technique which involves some seat movement without necessarily knee dragging.  I remember attending a CSB school some years back where Mr. Code made a statement that you don't have to drag a knee to go fast, but on the track it can be helpful to offset the extreme centrifugal forces of entering a turn at high speed.  And, yeah, I think he has a point there.

I took KC's 3 day course back in the early 80's when he came though Colorado, best thing I ever did, just learning about frt-braking/counter-steering/and choosing how many fingers to use on the frt brake for what you want to do, "It's harder to low-side using one finger than 3".... He turned my riding around 180º...........

!0-4, Monk.  No driveways, kids, deer or pets in the road, or cars coming the other way.  The track is a great place to perfect street riding skills.  A few good sessions will certainly make one a better street rider.  KC definitely taught me a lot also.  Most any of the track schools are time and money well spent, and could save your life where split-second decisions are concerned in street situations when you're conditioned to know what to expect, and how your motorcycle reacts to different inputs.

Another thing, is the amount of energy to hang on the vfr compared to say an RR bike, RR bike your knees are already downward and out, below your butt..

If your butt(seating position), is inline with your knees or lower, takes more effort too get off.

Aging causes you to notice this stuff :tour:

Hey gang, I was lucky enough to go to the California SB School in Vegas last month and I can tell you it takes all the theory out of riding technique. They will teach why and how the bike turns and what your body should be doing in conjunction with the speed and type of turn. Keep in mind I am not a racer nor do I want to be, I went to learn from those that are experts. Not trying to say that all of you dont know a ton. But I figure why not talk to the P.H.D, thats all. Anyway a few things that they hit hard are:
Throttle control- is the single greatest influence on the bike and its performance.
Vision- you have to be able to spot a turn in point, then the apex and finally an exit point to have a successful safe corner. They call it "3 step".
Turning input- If you dont push on the bars the bike will just slowly turn in a large arc. Watch Codes video on utube with the handlebar experiment.
Hanging off- is done for one main reason and that is to reduce lean angle of the bike itself. It also lowers the center of mass but that is a distant second. HANGING OFF DOES NOT TURN THE BIKE.
Lean angle vs throttle input- Do not attempt to apply throttle change at the same time you are making a lean angle change. Lean into the corner and THEN apply the throttle smoothly through the corner. Mid corner throttle changes combined with angle changes will upset the bike faster than any other combo. Im talking about abrupt changes of course.

Well thats the end of my blathering and I hope I didnt come off as some know-it-all because I know most of you have forgotten more saddle time than I will ever have. I just wanted to pass on a few tiny nuggets that I got from my time with the experts over 2 days.

If you ever have the chance to go to a CSS track school I guarantee you will not be disappointed, except that it wasnt longer. These guys are so good they are watching and evaluating your riding FROM THEIR MIRROR and trust me they dont miss anything. Cant say enough about these guys (and gal- she was badass).

Even if your not interested in racing, pick up a copy of Twist of the Wrist II and I promise you will learn something. And thats what its all about right, learning as much as we can?
Sorry so long- espresso is kicking in
Be safe
JC

JC,
I for one thank you.... It's always nice to hear some fresh in the mind from school upates.......... I like long reads :fing02:

Maybe because I am only 5'7" and weigh in about 150 lbs FSO but if I end up in the twisties I am moving my arse to the inside whether I want to or not.  I have never dragged a knee but then I don't ride those kind of speeds on public roads.

I guess you adapt to the technique that works best for you.  For me I just have use more of my weight to help counter steer the VFR compared to my old R6.

[image: View Post]johnmark101, on 27 January 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Hanging off the inside of the bike allows you to take a given corner at a specific speed while using less lean angle than if you were taking that same corner at the same speed while not hanging off.  This allows you to use up less of the available traction and maintain a greater contact patch.

It is just another technique that one may or may not choose to adapt.  On the track is is a must for high speed cornering.

[image: Posted Image]

:+1:
That's why I think it's actually safer to hang off on fast tight turns than just to lean the bike over. You get both the proper weight shift plus you maintain more tire contact patch during the turn.
On tiwsty mountain roads that I ride in with turns that come in quick succession, I barely put my but down on the seat and just skin over it while shifting from hanging off one side to the other. It's a good workout for your upper and lower legs and I usually feel it the next day after.

Beck
95 VFR

The way I ride on the street depends on the bike I am riding.

But, I rarely hang off much if at all. I prefer a more upright riding style for street riding. I do believe it is important to "stand" on the pegs, or avoid "crotching" the pegs with the arch of your foot.

I think something a lot of riders tend to miss in the discussion of hanging off is visibility. Visibility is likely the most important factor in street riding. Because of the nature of the street: deer, potholes, rocks (we see alot of these in the mountains), oil, etc.

So, when someone says that hanging off and getting the chin outside and down near the mirror "is safer" because of less resulting lean angle, then they are ignoring what getting your head down that low does for their sight lines. When dragging a knee in proper "road race" body position, your eyes are at most 18"-24" off of the actual road surface.  This is fine for the track.

For street riding, this is not ideal. Far from it. You want your head higher. You need a lot more visual information to survive the street then you do the track. Sure, it won't look as good when you post pics. Racers are unconcerned by this stuff, for obvious clock-related reasons. The evidence is when there is a little oil on the track and every guy goes flying off into the gravel.

Additionally, I think a more upright posture allows for better control of slides and allows for very aggressive steering and throttle control. This is why we see dirt riders and flat track guys in a more upright position over the bars with the elbows out more. They are far more prepared to deal with front or rear end slides.

I personally think a good street riding position is a combo of dirt, flat track, and road race styles. I think a lot of street riders make the mistake of emulating road racers on the street, thinking this is "safer" or "right". But, maximizing lean angle really isn't the crux of street riding. Really, it is maximizing sight lines, and maximizing control of the machine. Just my opinion.

This is all written in the book "Twist of the wrist 2" by Kieth Code - if you cant afford to go to a school, the book is written for idiots but the concepts and training are sound.  That is if you can get over the simplistic writing style.  TOTW2 is more street oriented then 1, which is more track instruction.

You can accomplish a lot by planning your speed for entry/exit on corners, lane positioning and counter-steering - those will get you around most corners. Add higher speed or tighter turns and you need to shift your weight and get your butt out of the seat - not necessarily hanging off the side of your bike. A bit of a push, timed well with a bit of butt sliding across the seat and you can do 90% of your street riding.

I have the same 'issue' Vanion does except only I'm 5'6" #135 AD (after dinner). -Like him, I move around a bit just to get the bike turned, most of my riding is commuting or the "pace" with a small P.

Check the rear tire tread wear pattern. If you're using the tread all the way over to the edge, you may want to lean off the seat to allow the bike to stand up a bit and allow more tire contact with the pavement.

[image: View Post]HispanicSlammer, on 12 March 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

This is all written in the book "Twist of the wrist 2" by Kieth Code - if you cant afford to go to a school, the book is written for idiots but the concepts and training are sound.  That is if you can get over the simplistic writing style.  TOTW2 is more street oriented then 1, which is more track instruction.

Actually, both of the Twist books by Keith Code are written very well so that anyone who knows how to start a motorcycle and put it in gear can understand the points he's trying to get across without being completely lost and confused within the first chapter.  We didn't all start out masters of riding and knowing all the basics, ya gotta start somewhere.

I do agree that the second Twist book is better and more street oriented, but I do not belive it replaces the first book by any means.  Furthermore, if you really want a good street riding manual, you must read Lee Parks Total Control.  The ONLY downside to Total Control is that I think Lee references the Twist books a bit too much thereby making all three a mandatory read to get the full ammount of knowledge possible.  I can't really say for sure because I had allready read both Twist's before I got to Total Control.

That being said, all three are  fantastic reads and I think anyone can take something from the books, even if it's just a  reminder of things learned and forgotten about from the past.

I feel I'm truly a beginner, but I feel way more comfortable with the bike standing up straighter which works when I'm hanging off.  My hanging off probably isn't anything to write home about yet, as I don't drag my knee, but actually rest on the fairing of the 5th gen and "kiss the mirror while weighting the inside peg and butt cheek.

I guess I don't trust the bike, the tires or the roads enough to use just countersteer which could surely work at the speeds I'm travelling.

[image: View Post]Conedodger, on 26 January 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

"Kiss the mirror" works for me.  Lean forward and to the inside as if you were trying to kiss the mirror.
Since adopting this suggestion, I feel more comfortable when I encounter one of those "Oh Crap" situations where for whatever reason, (critters, sand, grass clippings on the road or just stupidly going too fast) I need to make quick adjustments. I also feel like I do a better job of "looking through the corner" when I lean forward and to the inside. Could just be more concentration that contributes to the overall improvement.
FWIW, I rarely drag a footpeg so I'm not really a "spirited" rider.

I detect two threads going here. One is riding on the open road / limited access situations. The other is street riding, implying city riding with traffic, inconsistant road surfaces, pedestrians, parked cars, etc. Seems to me leaning off is more useful in the former at presumably higher speeds, high vision upright riding is way more important in the later. Different strokes for different pokes. (Sorry)

So i take no shame in admitting that I have yet to scrap a peg on this bike in a turn. Maybe its just me (6'4", 280 lbs), but that is an intense lean angle compared to the cruisers I learned on. I just do not have the confidence to drop her in that low, which probably spurs from a couple accidents in my past.

I guess I have a question on the topic, which might be answered elsewhere but I feel this thread has some great input. Currently I do not get off the seat, and frankly I have no intention of gragging anything...(I have drug the concrete enough in my years thank you :goofy:   and my knees have had numerous surgery for sport related injuries :mellow: ) Anyhow, this lean technigue in the saddle, I was always tought you look where you want to end up, 3 point turn, countersteer ect, but putting my weight forward, I assume by bending the arms and getting a bit more weight over the bars wont upset the bike with my weight?

Second, is it feasible with only minor weight change as in this technique to get the bike to lean over to the pegs. Granted its gonna be awhile before I get there.

I actually just ordered a copy of Total Control by Lee Parks to give me more knowledge/power over my bike and well, my fears.

I find that Total Control is an exceptional book with lots of excellent tips and tricks.  Enjoy your reading and practice practice practice

[image: View Post]Metallican525, on 09 August 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

I find that Total Control is an exceptional book with lots of excellent tips and tricks.  Enjoy your reading and practice practice practice

I agree ...... Read the book...... As far as being big and leaning farward, watch some of the races with bigger riders on these 200's...... I'm not saying what I do is the best but I put wt on both of my pegs a left my butt off the seat(not to say there's any light showing, just enough to wt the pegs) while leaning my upper body to the inside of the turn.

Regardless of the ppl that slide their butts to the inside, I'm staying centred from the butt down, and no I don't drag my pegs either. It's just how I choice to ride on the road, and it's not going to better the seat sliders but it will do more for me than not doing any added english.

Just wanted to post that I have been reading Total Control, actually have trouble putting it down to the point I have only 20 pages left after 1 night... Book is amazing, I finally understand about the lean, which is rewarding as Parks gives you the concepts but lets you build your style, at your speed whether its dragging a knee or just moving your centerline. Great stuff. Cant say enough thanks to all who recomend this book on the forum, as I imagine my viffer does too. I hope to adjust my suspension a bit tonight as well as the fiddly bits including brake levers, brake pedal, adjust my chain tension. Anyhow, thanks again for this tread and advise, tremendous help.
:idea3: :fing02:

In the twistiest of twisties, I almost don't even get the chance to really sit my butt on my saddle as I am constantly shifting from one side of the saddle to the other that I find it more efficient to just kind of float (with my butt just lightly skimming over it) over the saddle with my weight just mostly on the pegs. It really helps in real tight sections with multiple successive turns coming at you. It almost ends up that the limit of my speed is mostly dictated by how fast I can transition from one side of the saddle to the other.

Beck
95 VFR