Oh no, not another brake bleeding thread!

I spent a good 6 hours total time over 3 days figuring out how to bleed the LBS (linked braking system) with ABS on my '06.

Unfortunately, there's hardly ANY concrete steps on what the correct method is, without using a vacuum tool.  I've searched on VFRD, VRFWorld and though everyone talks about the correct procedure, there aren't any tutorials or pictures beside's HS's thread which is not as thorough as some would like.

My bike is currently completely apart, and I personally love creating DIY tutorials (here's a few on a Subaru board I used to frequent, JDM Projector Install, Timing Belt And Waterpump, HID Projector Retrofit)

Now my question is for the brake bleeding gurus out there.  This is what I've come to understand from my experimenting from reading threads and the FSM using Speed Bleeders.  I haven't put my bike together, but I'm confident that there's no air in the system.  I would like you masters to just go over this procedure and let me know if there's any oddities in my method.  I haven't tested it out yet, as my bike is apart and I'd like to take pictures to make a DIY guide for those that come after us that will be very thorough and complete with loads of pictures!

1.  Left caliper, upper/outer bleed screw: using the front brake lever.

2.  Right caliper, single bleed screw: using the front brake lever.

3.  Proportional Control Valve (PCV), battery side: disconnect the left caliper, tilt caliper 15° from ground line, manually pump secondary master cylinder (SMC).  

Now, this is where my first problem started.  At first, there was pressure and fluid would come out, but after a while, no fluid anymore.  The FSM says to fill the master cylinder reservoir when the fluid level drops; I assumed the front lever one.  However, while manually operating the secondary master cylinder on the caliper, the fluid would come out from the rear master cylinder reservoir.  After a few manual pumps, no fluid was coming out.  This makes sense because that SMC doesn't have a reservoir hooked up to it and it can't possibly push fluid out.  So what I did to compensate was, operate the rear pedal lever (foot one), that got the fluid moving and then I'd go back and operate the SMC.  When no fluid was coming out again, I'd go back to the rear pedal lever, prime it again, then go back to the SMC.  

I went from regular DOT4 fluid, to ATE SuperBlue so I could see when the new fluid was coming out.  Once new fluid started coming out from the SMC, I primed it once again with the rear pedal lever then did one final bleed and tightened up the PCV bleeder.

Edit:  After reading this thread, it looks like I should have used the front lever instead of the rear pedal lever to maintain pressure.  The only problem I see with that is, you'd have to mount the caliper temporarily so you don't squeeze your pads.  Please confirm!

4.  Rear caliper, inner/centre bleed screw: using the front brake lever.  Mount caliper at 10 o'clock position.

I think I messed up and used the rear pedal lever for this.  I must go back and re-bleed.

5.  Proportional Control Valve, opposite battery side: using the rear pedal lever.

6.  Rear caliper, upper/outer bleed screw: using the rear pedal lever. Mount caliper at 10 o'clock position.

7.  Left caliper, inner/centre bleed screw:  using the rear pedal lever.

If this is the correct procedure, please let me know or if there's a sequence error, please correct me so I can do it right and then create a very thorough LBS brake bleeding guide for all to enjoy!

Thanks for reading!

I would definitely like to see this DYI proof read and confirmed. I want to put SS brake lines on soon and I would prefer to do it myself.

Cheers

I took a quick look at your procedure/thread.  I don't have much time this easter weekend but I see that even my procedure, while not meant to be a tutorial, is still confusing on such issues as whether the front caliper should be partial installed - at least having the disc between the pads - as part of the tilt bleed procedure.

The truth is, I didn't bleed the system, I replaced the brake fluid by pumping out everything I could from the reservoirs and then pumping through new fluid so no bleeding was necessary per se.  I much prefer to do this than the FSM method of draining the system, refilling the system and air bleeding the system.

I didn't actually remove the front caliper.  I left it in place and let hydraulic pressure move new fluid in to replace old.  The tilting is only necessary if air is trapped in the system - then you need the bleeders to be the high points for the air to migrate to.

Are you trying to create a DIY for bleeding or fluid replacement?  The procedures will be different to be sure.

I'm interested in the "right way" as well.  I used the specified order in the FSM and still have concerns.  I used the pedal rather than the SMC to bleed the PCV.  I believe this is what the manual specifies and I think I read a post by Sebspeed recommending this as well.  I didn't get consistent flow by pumping the SMC by hand.  But I think I hear a faint squish from the front left caliper when press the pedal.  I also can feel the pedal fade if I keep pressing for a few seconds.  Normal?

[image: View Post]BartmanEH, on 05 April 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

I took a quick look at your procedure/thread.  I don't have much time this easter weekend but I see that even my procedure, while not meant to be a tutorial, is still confusing on such issues as whether the front caliper should be partial installed - at least having the disc between the pads - as part of the tilt bleed procedure.

The truth is, I didn't bleed the system, I replaced the brake fluid by pumping out everything I could from the reservoirs and then pumping through new fluid so no bleeding was necessary per se.  I much prefer to do this than the FSM method of draining the system, refilling the system and air bleeding the system.

I didn't actually remove the front caliper.  I left it in place and let hydraulic pressure move new fluid in to replace old.  The tilting is only necessary if air is trapped in the system - then you need the bleeders to be the high points for the air to migrate to.

Are you trying to create a DIY for bleeding or fluid replacement?  The procedures will be different to be sure.

That makes a lot more sense.  I wanted to replace all the fluid, not bleed the system.  I've always felt the two were the same, but they aren't.

Since I'm only replacing the fluid then.. what procedures can I omit or change?  Since I used the rear pedal lever in step 4, does that still replace all the fluid or do I have to use the front lever?

If I'm only replacing, does that mean I can skip the secondary master cylinder step and just use the front brake lever to flush the PCV by the battery?

[image: View Post]jay-d, on 05 April 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

[image: View Post]BartmanEH, on 05 April 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

I took a quick look at your procedure/thread.  I don't have much time this easter weekend but I see that even my procedure, while not meant to be a tutorial, is still confusing on such issues as whether the front caliper should be partial installed - at least having the disc between the pads - as part of the tilt bleed procedure.

The truth is, I didn't bleed the system, I replaced the brake fluid by pumping out everything I could from the reservoirs and then pumping through new fluid so no bleeding was necessary per se.  I much prefer to do this than the FSM method of draining the system, refilling the system and air bleeding the system.

I didn't actually remove the front caliper.  I left it in place and let hydraulic pressure move new fluid in to replace old.  The tilting is only necessary if air is trapped in the system - then you need the bleeders to be the high points for the air to migrate to.

Are you trying to create a DIY for bleeding or fluid replacement?  The procedures will be different to be sure.

That makes a lot more sense.  I wanted to replace all the fluid, not bleed the system.  I've always felt the two were the same, but they aren't.

Since I'm only replacing the fluid then.. what procedures can I omit or change?  Since I used the rear pedal lever in step 4, does that still replace all the fluid or do I have to use the front lever?

If I'm only replacing, does that mean I can skip the secondary master cylinder step and just use the front brake lever to flush the PCV by the battery?



Actually, it really is the same. If you suck the masters dry and put in new fluid, as you bleed the system it moves all the old fluid out and down with new fluid behind it. Run enough fluid through the system and it will be crystal clear. When I worked for SW Bell fleet department we had a fluid exhanger system that made life so easy. It basically was a big container that had a bladder in the middle of it. You filled the top side of the container with brake fluid and the bottom side was pressurized with an air hose. You would then install an adapter cap over the master and turn on the valve. The pressurized bladder would force the fluid completely through the brake system when you cracked the bleeder valve. Just let it run until the fluid was clear. No air, no old fluid left. If you empty the masters, refill them, then bleed it is a lot easier than emptying the system and bleeding. When you empty the system there is nothing but air in the lines. Trying to get all the air out of an empty system is a PITA. By sucking out the masters and then bleeding out the old fluid you have introduced no air into the system. Takes a lot less work to do it this way.

[image: View Post]huntinggunns, on 06 April 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

[image: View Post]jay-d, on 05 April 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

[image: View Post]BartmanEH, on 05 April 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

I took a quick look at your procedure/thread.  I don't have much time this easter weekend but I see that even my procedure, while not meant to be a tutorial, is still confusing on such issues as whether the front caliper should be partial installed - at least having the disc between the pads - as part of the tilt bleed procedure.

The truth is, I didn't bleed the system, I replaced the brake fluid by pumping out everything I could from the reservoirs and then pumping through new fluid so no bleeding was necessary per se.  I much prefer to do this than the FSM method of draining the system, refilling the system and air bleeding the system.

I didn't actually remove the front caliper.  I left it in place and let hydraulic pressure move new fluid in to replace old.  The tilting is only necessary if air is trapped in the system - then you need the bleeders to be the high points for the air to migrate to.

Are you trying to create a DIY for bleeding or fluid replacement?  The procedures will be different to be sure.

That makes a lot more sense.  I wanted to replace all the fluid, not bleed the system.  I've always felt the two were the same, but they aren't.

Since I'm only replacing the fluid then.. what procedures can I omit or change?  Since I used the rear pedal lever in step 4, does that still replace all the fluid or do I have to use the front lever?

If I'm only replacing, does that mean I can skip the secondary master cylinder step and just use the front brake lever to flush the PCV by the battery?



Actually, it really is the same. If you suck the masters dry and put in new fluid, as you bleed the system it moves all the old fluid out and down with new fluid behind it. Run enough fluid through the system and it will be crystal clear. When I worked for SW Bell fleet department we had a fluid exhanger system that made life so easy. It basically was a big container that had a bladder in the middle of it. You filled the top side of the container with brake fluid and the bottom side was pressurized with an air hose. You would then install an adapter cap over the master and turn on the valve. The pressurized bladder would force the fluid completely through the brake system when you cracked the bleeder valve. Just let it run until the fluid was clear. No air, no old fluid left. If you empty the masters, refill them, then bleed it is a lot easier than emptying the system and bleeding. When you empty the system there is nothing but air in the lines. Trying to get all the air out of an empty system is a PITA. By sucking out the masters and then bleeding out the old fluid you have introduced no air into the system. Takes a lot less work to do it this way.

Thanks for that!  That's exactly what I did too, removed all the fluid from the reservoir and pumped in new fluid throughout.

I just want to make sure that the procedure and order that I followed gets rid of all the old fluid in all the lines.  I'm going to go ahead and start documenting the way I did it, but with those two changes.  Hopefully it's the correct way and and I'm sure I'll have enough pictures to rearrange the order of things if someone says it's different.

This is how I would start the document.

1st:  Siphon the master cylinders down to the inlet at the bottom with a vacuum bleeder, turkey baster, or even the hard way, soak up all the fluid with some paper towels. Clean the master with some brake cleaner and a rag. Fill the master back up with new fluid. Pump the handle or pedal a few times to make sure you did not get a small bubble at the start of the lines at the master. Then proceed with the correct bleeding sequence until clear fluid is present at all bleeders while keeping the masters at least half full.

Then you could post the correct sequence after that. It will usually take about a quart of fluid to do this as the lines are pretty long. I also do the sequence twice from start to finish to ensure that all the old fluid is out.

I hope this helps you with your document.

i do the following...

Bleeding steps...

Front Brake
- Right outer
- Left outer
Rear brake
- Right Center Front
- Left Center Front
- (remove and Tilt the Front left CApiler to 15 degrees - to release any air bubbles to the PCV)
- PCV
- (Fit Front Left Capliper back)
- (remove wheel and rear caliper, move to 2 o'clock position)
- Rear Center
- Rear Outer
I do have speedbleeders...

So I've been pondering this all morning and I think I finally figured it out.

In my original post, section 3., I was confused regarding removing the caliper or not and why that secondary cylinder wasn't moving any fluid to the PCV bleeder.  I used the rear brake pedal to bleed the PCV bleeder on the battery side which is incorrect because that line gets bled in the final step. .  As Bartman said, you only have to remove the caliper if there's air in the system and you're trying to get it to move to the top and using the secondary master cylinder as an aid.  You can bypass this and use the front lever to push fluid out and it will bypass fluid from the primary master cylinder (lever) in the relaxed position.

Here's some FSM pictures that doesn't explain it, but it shows you in the diagram

[image: Posted Image]

As you can see, the front lever is in the image which signifies to use the front lever to push fluid through, though it doesn't tell you that.  

In the final step, you can see how the pedal master cylinder bleeds the same line twice essentially with the original method that I followed.

[image: Posted Image]



Looks like I'm on the right track finally to getting this done the proper way and I will get that DIY started!!

[image: View Post]huntinggunns, on 06 April 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

This is how I would start the document. 1st: Siphon the master cylinders down to the inlet at the bottom with a vacuum bleeder, turkey baster, or even the hard way, soak up all the fluid with some paper towels. Clean the master with some brake cleaner and a rag. Fill the master back up with new fluid. Pump the handle or pedal a few times to make sure you did not get a small bubble at the start of the lines at the master. Then proceed with the correct bleeding sequence until clear fluid is present at all bleeders while keeping the masters at least half full. Then you could post the correct sequence after that. It will usually take about a quart of fluid to do this as the lines are pretty long. I also do the sequence twice from start to finish to ensure that all the old fluid is out. I hope this helps you with your document.
Definitely will write it from start to finish!  It'll be very thorough so even the noobiest of noobs will be able to follow it :D

Thanks for your help!

What's wrong with the procedure listed in the manual?  I may have missed something in the previous posts...

Although I am not a big fan of reading manuals ('coz manuals are for pussies), I have printed out the two-three pages that describe the procedure, put them in front of me and followed to the letter to completely replace fluid and bleed my 06 ABS.

Even though I purchased a vacuum bleeder, I ended up doing it the old way, because vacuum pulled in air through the nipples and I was too lazy to use Teflon tape.

It turned out to be extremely easy!  A pleasant surprise.  

So, my question is, why are you guys reinventing the wheel?

[image: View Post]Rice, on 06 April 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

What's wrong with the procedure listed in the manual?  I may have missed something in the previous posts...

Although I am not a big fan of reading manuals ('coz manuals are for pussies), I have printed out the two-three pages that describe the procedure, put them in front of me and followed to the letter to completely replace fluid and bleed my 06 ABS.

Even though I purchased a vacuum bleeder, I ended up doing it the old way, because vacuum pulled in air through the nipples and I was too lazy to use Teflon tape.

It turned out to be extremely easy!  A pleasant surprise.  

So, my question is, why are you guys reinventing the wheel?

No one is reinventing the wheel.. the manual just isn't very specific and I like to be very thorough to make sure every line is correctly bled.

I just finished doing all this and I've got it all figured out.  There's a lot of people that have issues bleeding these brakes because of the linked setup and there's information scattered everywhere so it's difficult to get questions answered.

The purpose of this thread was to get a complete understanding of how the system works and how to properly bleed it; which I've done.  Now I gotta go take a million pictures and write my procedure out, which is the same procedure as the FSM with more information, pictures and explanations. :tour:

The guide is up for those that wanted it!

http://www.vfrdiscus...ultimate-guide/