Tire concerns from a newbie

Ok, I've had 2 slides within the last month. The first time i was leaving work pulling out a side street making a right accelerating through the turn to merge. As i was going through the turn i went through a small stream of water & the rear slid out. The second time was last night on the way home. Making a left slightly more than a 90 deg turn i went down one gear to many, into first & powered through the turn. Nearing the end of the turn it again slid out. Best part of last night was after i let off to regain grip & got straight i was near vtech & twisted it. This decision resulted in my first ever power wheelie :woohoo: :wheel: . After i calmed down & cleaned my shorts I begain to wonder how well i'm gonna far using the vfr on stk tires as much as possible through winter. Can i run lower pressures? I have a limited budget & can't really afford new tires when i cant make my so understand why good tires need to be changed? any advise would be welcomed.

it's not a tire problem. You just riding way over the bike's ability to maintain traction. Have you passed a motorcycle training course? This would be the first step. A proper training course will address the issues you've encountered.

Assuming that your current tire has thread left here and you haven't mentioned what tire you have.
Regardless, all tires slide from time to time under the conditions which you have described- It's absolutely normal.

And take it easy in the turns and especially on cold tires and in the wet.
+1 To what Tamworth is selling :tour:

Just going from your avatar - it says you just purchased a new '08.  If you're on the original rubber, it's around 5 years old by now (the build date on my '08 was October '07).  The Dunlops that came on my '08 were like bricks at 3 years old (I bought it as a leftover).  I'm not convinced they were all that good when they were new.   I only ran the Dunlops 1,600 miles before I swapped them for some PR2's.  It made a big difference.  They do step out on me occasionally, but nothing like the original Dunlops did.

i have done the msf beginner course. Absolutly the very best $300 i've spent. I'mlooking to do the sport bike class come spring & maybe some racing classes. As for how i ride, it's very possible i'm exceeding what the bike can handle. My driving style is a fine line between aggressive & defensive without being an ass & driving reckless. I've drag raced, autocrossed & tracked my s4. I match rev my down shifts & have had some personal training to learn how to properly handle a car.  A few times i've cought myself being aggressive with my down shifts, trail braking & set up for a turn. This might not only come from my eagerness of seeing how far my limits are but also i've been riding with a friend who has a gsxr1000 & his other riding buddies who have the same size bikes pacing with them. i'm in no hurry to get hurt but i do enjoy the turns, car or bike & a gross display of power & use my best judgement to keep myself alive. My gut feeling is my best friend.

oh, i have almost 4k miles on the dunlops with more than half tread & always check & set pressures.

To be honest your post is really setting off alarm bells for me. You're a new rider with a very aggressive driving (and now riding) style. I see trouble and pain in your near future. If that's your young daughter pictured in your avatar you may want to re-evaluate things and what the future may hold.
Just a personal opinion.

Thank you for your concern. I do want to learn how to ride properly & live a long life. Reading your response makes me uneasy & unsure of what actions I should take to prevent bad habits other than the obvious of chill out. It's reasons like this I posted. I thought I could use some help. Thanks

Being a new rider and/or being an experienced rider on a "new to me" bike would be a primary reason to chill your style. Trying to keep up with buddies is a sure fire way to kill yourself and/or your bike. I would imagine that is one of the first things they covered in your riding class as well. I've seen 3 guys trying to keep up run into serious troubles. I was selling my first VF700F to my next door neighbor and he destroyed the bike along with his spleen trying to keep up with guys that could ride fast in their sleep. Slow down! Your instructors and your friends here aren't trying to be aholes, we could just do w/o another memorial ride.

Also, if your friends are as fast as you say, you probably won't be keeping up with GSXR1000's anyway.

As far as the tires being slippery, I would reccommend that your remember it takes a while for your tires to warm up and get grippy no matter what tires you have, especially as the fall weather cools the streets as well as your tires.

Defiantly don't want a memorial ride. I've waited 10 yrs for bike because I was afraid of what I'd do. I don't feel anyone is being an ass. I'm worried I've made myself out to be one. I think I should go back through my msf book again. I've been lurking here a month before I got my vfr & very quickly got the impression of riders who have experienced almost everything & I respect that & value the advice. I tend to get too into things & carried away to fast out of excitement.

As everyone above has noted - it's not about us being holier than thou, just that harsh words from the get-go can actually make a person stand back for a moment and if that keep a little girls dad around for a bit longer I'm all for it...  I too have seen mates take the painful route to the realisation they will never be as fast as everyone they ride with, it's not pretty, especially when the missus visits you in hospital with a fist full of bills she can't pay because you have been in hospital for 3 months and can't work...

Save your money, learn your bike, do an advanced riding course, do some organised track training days (California Superbike School as an example), always have your kids in the back of your mind and you're making the best effort possible to be home for dinner with them after each ride - that's a shartload more important than riding down your mates...

Edit: there's nothing wrong with getting carried away mate, just do it in measured bursts ;-)

The one thing you do not want to do is try and keep up with faster riders. There's something known to most of us long time riders, it's called 'The Pace' (see link below) and if your friend and riding buddies are aware of it then they will understand that when you ride with them, you may not be riding amongst them. Personally I would recommend grabbing a few books about riding and riding safety and read them cover to cover and practice what's in their pages before you start trying to test your limits. Here are the books that I would pick up...'Total Control' by Lee Parks, 'Proficient Motorcycling' & 'More Proficient Motorcycling' by David L. Hough

Of course rider instruction led courses are preferred to reading and self instructed lessons but as you mentioned you have limited funds and have already done a basic course, this would be a good second step IMO.

The pace: http://www.motorcycl..._nick_ienatsch/

As far as tires, if yours are long in the tooth age wise, then picking up some new rubber would be wise. I can personally say that the Michelin PR2's are a great tire for the VFR and work well for both commuting and light sport riding.

Cheers

I'd like to carry on with this, most drops/slides are to much throttle while accelerating around sharp turns, same thing while braking to hard around turns. Most of it can also be learning to read the road surface(and there is a lot of stuff you just can't see, for one diesel and coolant).
I'd suggest reading some riding books......Plus I agree you need some PR2's(at least some fresh rubber).

Most importantly liking to ride turns fast can be done two ways....... smoothly ............. or not smoothly ....... sounds like you know how to be smooth with the gears ...... but need to still work on being smooth with the throttle and brake .......

There is a load of stuff(Video's / books)available that can help us all ..... I've been riding since 62 and I'm still learning...

My family is the reason I listen to my gut instinct. Timing is interesting. Watching the news I hear a motorcyclist is south Philly hit a bycicleist. Both died. The cruiser looks just like my old work buddies triumph! His parents also live in the area. No name yet but I'm very concerned.

Thanks for the book info. I'll check it out tomorrow. Monk, you hit a point with the throttle. Its taking a little longer than I expected to get used to how gently you need to be when your told to roll not twist. I've had a couple times of it being jerky or not rolling on enough. It's interesting to see how different it is than a car!

[image: View Post]Monk, on 21 October 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

.

There is a load of stuff(Video's / books)available that can help us all ..... I've been riding since 62 and I'm still learning...

I haven't been riding quite that long - but I couldn't agree more.

Note on those books, if you have an iPad they are all available via the Apple App store, not sure for nook or electronic readers though.

Cheers

No iPad but I'll try the iphone

Welcome to VFRD, and welcome to the riding community!

From what you describe I do not believe that the issue is related to tires.

I am a strong proponent of "start small, learn faster".  My first bike was a Suzuki GS500 - excellent first ride.  When I made a newbie mistake such as sharp movements, panic braking, dropping the clutch or grabbing the wrong gear it let me know about it but was very forgiving.  The VFR is not nearly as forgiving - a lot more power, a lot more torque and a lot easier to get into trouble on.  However before moving up the Viffer I put enough miles on the smaller bike to develop a certain level of skill.  It takes time to develop a feel for throttle, clutch and smoothness.  Skills, as noted by many other forum regulars, that continue to develop regardless how long you have been riding.

When riding in a group it is really easy to get sucked in - to watch others take a corner, and to attempt to do so yourself.  Often groups of riders will egg each other on, without realizing that they are doing so.  ALWAYS ride your own ride.  Anybody worth riding with will respect you a lot more for doing so - and if they are a little quicker will wait for you.  It is better to take a corner and know you could have taken it faster, than to push it too hard and have regrets - unlike a car, a bike accident can be very serious, even if you are wearing the right gear.

If you are a new rider and if some of the issues you are experiencing are related to your riding style, I strongly recommend that you pull back a little bit.  Don't try to ride at 90 or 100% - that doesn't give you any room for mistakes, or surprises on the road.  At 90% a bit of gravel will take you well over your limits of skill and traction.  (Don't let this happen to you).

If you are skidding around corners and launching into unplanned wheelies you are riding over 100% - you might get away with it once or twice, but that is pure dumb luck.  Take it back to 60% - ride well within your limits.  You have years and years ahead of you to ride, don't cut that short. You do not have anything to prove to yourself, or to your buddies.  Testosterone should be left at home, not used as a gasoline additive.

One more quick note - if you want to push limits hard, take it to the track.

Some 2 cents ---- riding is a skill and when you start out you have zero. Riding well takes practice, practice and more practice. Right now you are on the low end. Over time and reps, you brain will pickup the "firmware" to help do the right thing. How you think and react and make decisions while you ride will determine your survival in the motorcycle world.

There are lots of threads here on newbie riders - do a search. Layoff the quick throttle movements. So far your hamfisted throttle movement has you down twice already. Dont blame the tires.  Work on smooth, and more smooth.
- More books - Reg Pridgemore,Smooth Riding. & Nick Ienatch, Sport Riding Techniques


Ok with that said, an upgrade in tires is a good idea.

Grayv3 - the other option on the books is to check them out of the local library.  Great solution if funds are tight.

Man, I wish I starting riding in a group like you guys. My dad is always giving me tips & advise. He's been riding since he was 7, now going to be 55 next month but he rides at 12 tenths. So far I've learned most of what I know from taking my experience with cars & adapting it to the bike. Maybe not the best thing to do. I just read the link given for "The Pace", VERY interesting some of the logic & technics used.
Olive, ive been reading your six week trip, good stuff. You passed right by me on the nj tpk
I just want to let everyone know I appreciate the advise given & it won't fall on def ears. This is a great group of people

Good to hear Grayv3!  Remember that bikes and cars are very different in the way that they respond.

The absolute best advice I was given when I started riding was to ride my own ride.  The next best advice was to work on being smooth.  (It's absolutely true - some of the best riders I have ever met are the smoothest.  If you have the opportunity to watch video of track and you will notice that the best riders are the smoothest.)

Given time you have the potential to be an excellent rider - you are willing to learn from the mistakes of others (we've all made them, that's where our comments come from), and eager to learn.  Keep posting - this forum is a wealth of information, and most members are here because they enjoy riding and want to pass on their enthusiasm for the sport.  We all started somewhere - and we all remember when we started riding.  Nobody on this board was born knowing how to ride, and nobody got their skills overnight.

Hopefully the forum will have a chance to meet you at one of the big meets next year - TexMac, SumSum, Kootenay Hootnanny, ...

If love to make a gathering. Have to wait till mid June for my first yr with the new job then vacation

I think the key thing here is, if your on original tires that are several years old, they are probably very skiddish, cause even new they were skiddish, especially in wet weather.

I remember the original z4 rears, you could accelerate in the rain and get them to spin at 60 mph.  For the money the road 2 rear, is hard to beat. It gets 20% more life than the average sport tour, and also upps the traction level. Ive yet to see any tire meet or exceed that performance.

I really cant vaulch for the front road 2's, I dont run sport tours on the front.

[image: View Post]Grayv3, on 21 October 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

I've drag raced, autocrossed & tracked my s4.
Fellow autocrosser here.  The basic autocross skills can be applied to riding.

-Smooth inputs
-Squeeze the throttle
-Light touch on the steering
-Look through the corners

As a recent novice to motorcycles myself, I started out with exactly the same attitude as yours - I'm on a SPORT bike, they're built to go fast, so I go fast...I was lucky not to get into too much trouble for the majority of my early learning and then I've found this group.  It has taught me to be a safer and better rider.  Still a long way to go for me, but at least I know that I'm on the right path.

I remember my first trip to T-Mac, when I hooked up with a group of what turned out to be much faster riders than myself.  I hung with them, but by the skin of my teeth.  Luckily, I managed to come back in one piece from that ride and I've learned a few important lessons, which others have mentioned above.  Ride my own ride, always leave a margin for error, always put coming back in one piece at the top of my priorities.  There were other lessons as well, but these were most important.I have since dropped out from rides when I saw that the group is too fast for me - It takes some discipline to do that.In addition, I've realized that I no longer feel anxious before and during the ride, which makes it that much more enjoyable.
P.S.You're not too far from me - Let's get together for a ride one of these days. :idea3:

What I love about this forum is how the members can give advice in such a helpful and non-judgemental way (at least usually, right?).  Anyway, kudos to you for being willing to hear what has been offered.  Your humility will save your butt and put you on the path to being a great rider.

The single best thing I did when I went from learning to ride on cruisers ( Vulcan 500, Vulcan 900), to buying my 6th gen VFR was to get instruction.  I took several consecutive track days combined with professional instruction from a local racer (Mike Sullivan) and his team of instructors.  You don't have to go to Keith Code's CA Superbike School to get good, valuable instruction on riding skills.  Look for a local track that has this combo of instruction and track days...it taught me all the basic skills to build on:  corner entry, vision, body position, braking, throttle control, etc.

Just to show you the result of something completely left of field taking your attention for a moment, the following was the result of a bee entering my helmet at the apex of a corner - a moments distraction meant I overran the corner and a near vertical drop awaited me...

I was wearing leather pants but a mesh jacket - several sticks managed to creep inside so came away with 6 broken ribs and abrasions...  Over 30 years of riding and still new challenges arise...

[image: Posted Image]

[image: Posted Image]
465428_3336886296157_1797856168_o by CSFS, on Flickr

^umm.... i think i'll take the bee sting. I can't imagine something that small causing that much damage! But your right a 1 sec deistraction & a little wiggle is all it takes

[image: View Post]2thdr, on 22 October 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

, kudos to you for being willing to hear what has been offered.  Your humility will save your butt and put you on the path to being a great rider.


You have a great attitude here, your openness to what others say is a HUGE plus to your future life of enjoying riding!
Great info from everyone here and as mentioned Rider Education is always the Best investment and will provide Safe leaps in learned skilled levels.
Take your time. I would suggest you find a rider or group of riders who ride the PACE, we have many great members who help take newer riders under their skilled wings. It makes a Big difference in your riding and skill development.
Riding or trying to keep up with faster riders is a disaster waiting to happen.
Learn, ride, live!

BR

I've been reading total control today, good book so far, I downloaded the free version while I wait for amazon to ship the whole book. Is "The Pace" a book or just an article explaining what it is? I can't find anything other than the link given earlier?

Lucky for you the slides and unplanned wheelie didn't end up with you on the ground.
You can't keep getting away with it. Probably sooner than later you'll get bit. Money back guaranteed. :mellow:

So, I'd suggest chillin' on your riding style is a good idea.
If you don't do it voluntarily, you may end up doing it involuntarily, hurting in a hospital. :goofy:

It's not how fast you can go. It's are you smart enough to see reality, and ride safe?
Because, crashing sucks. Hard.

Cheers. :idea3:

At the risk of sounding like a gray haired geeser ( which I am!!); There's no prize money , trophy girls , corner workers or ambulances on the road  and  " there are old riders and there are bold riders, but there are very few old,bold riders. Bring it home with the same shine it left with!!
  GL

I've always known 'The Pace' as an article that was featured in Motorcyclist magazine. Although the author (Nick Ienatsch) has written a book about sport riding and it might be featured in there as well.

^ I like that

^^^^^
http://www.amazon.co...s=nick ienatsch

This is it...

-Like everybody is saying, go slow about it, learn a step at a time. Walk before you run.

Thanks mello dude. This is the one book I can't find for iBooks. I found the 3 already mentioned + mastering the ride, just came out.

I just noticed you're in Cherry Hill. I was at McGuire AFB when my neighbor wadded up my VF700F. He was trying to keep up with a group of very experienced riders headed to the shore through the Pine Barrens. As you probably know, the soil out that way is nothing but sand. He went wide on a high speed sweeper and once the front tire hit the deep sand, it came to an immediate stop, catapulting him almost 100 feet. The back of the bike came over forward so violently that the seat/sub frame was crushed downward flattening the rear tire and taco-ed the rear wheel. Luckily, he missed the pines but still lost his spleen. Now you have a Jersey specific example of the need to tone it down a touch.

Asking for and then actually taking the advise is a great sign. There are many activities where experience is the only tool for learning but as counter-intuitive as it may seem, books can be invaluable as an aid in motorcycling. From learning to ride, to packing for long rides, to wrenching, books will almost always offer appreciable knowledge.

Wow! I've been through the pines when I had my jeep & got sticks in the thick sugar sand. That stuff is pretty bad ass

[image: View Post]Grayv3, on 22 October 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

I've been reading total control today, good book so far, I downloaded the free version while I wait for amazon to ship the whole book. Is "The Pace" a book or just an article explaining what it is? I can't find anything other than the link given earlier?

Here it is from our TexasMac Forum:
http://www.vfrdiscus...e-for-everyone/

Not much more to say.
Welcome and ride within your capability, I've seen many try to keep up and wash out on corners, grab at the brakes and run off the road. These things will upset your mates more than you taking your time and having to wait a bit for you.
Check out the "Twist of the wrist" video too. Patients and control, you'll still enjoy yourself.
Enjoy