Vtec rear shock stuffed or just normal quick question

Hi

Just been tweaking my stock rear shock on my 06 and from what i have gathered the standard rebound setting is about 1 1/4 turns out from full hard.  I went to adjust mine and it had only half a turn.  I started playing with it as it was wallowing.  I have increased the compression from the stock 2 clicks to 4 clicks.  I am 100kgs.  I know the stock shock sucks generally but have heard people similar to my weight can make do with the stock shock.  Does this sound like normal behavior from the stock shock or does the valving sound worn or stuffed?

Cheers

Shane

It sounds backwards, but if you are wallowing, you are likely packing down the shock causing your geometry to be nose high.  You need to turn it toward the "S" to allow the shock to rebound faster.  Only give it 1/8 to 1/4 turn at a time and test it.    As for preload, you will need at least 4 clicks to get in the ballpark for correct sag, maybe 5.

Edited by tbzep, 12 October 2013 - 08:06 PM.

I think rebound is about 1 and 1/4 out from full hard, there is also  indention DOTs at the standard settting. so Id start there at the dot where ever it ends up in that post 1 turn out from full hard. Assuming all the shocks are the same new, but the abs model offers alot more preload settings. The standard rebound setting is the same from my experience was way too quick , so from what ever your standard setting is, the best rebound is there or 1/4 turn in clockwise. Outside of that range will bring on issues, meaning 1/4 turn from stock is really the usuable range on rebound.

Contrary to what most here believe, With the stock shock, throw sag out the window or the stock shock will never be made to work, unless your just putting around..

But I'd not use your hardest preload setting, but the one just before as a base, assuming 180 to 200 lb.

I think rebound is about 1 and 1/4 out from full hard, there is also  indention DOTs at the standard settting. so Id start there at the dot where ever it ends up in that post 1 turn out from full hard. Assuming all the shocks are the same new, but the abs model offers alot more preload settings. The standard rebound setting is the same from my experience was way too quick , so from what ever your standard setting is, the best rebound is there or 1/4 turn in clockwise. Outside of that range will bring on issues, meaning 1/4 turn from stock is really the usuable range on rebound.

Contrary to what most here believe, With the stock shock, throw sag out the window or the stock shock will never be made to work, unless your just putting around..

But I'd not use your hardest preload setting, but the one just before as a base, assuming 180 to 200 lb.

He's 220 lbs.  He needs every bit of 4 and possibly 5 or 6 preload clicks.   Stock rebound at his weight will cause the rear pack down and anything harder will pack so bad that he will bottom out, not due to big bumps, but due to not returning to height before the next little bump.   In the curves, it will want to run wide and feel vague due to it being nose high from packing. Turning toward the "H" (clockwise) from the stock position will make it worse.   I'm at ~210 and I speak from experience.  (I don't putt around).

Edited by tbzep, 12 October 2013 - 09:34 PM.

At 200 lb for me, full preload is too stiff, course I have an abs model, I think Im about 5 clicks from full stiff, stock rebound was way too quick even when the bike was new.

The reason I say dont bother with sag on the rear shock, is because the non adjustable compression is very linear, and you'll blow right through the travel in trying to set up a traditional sag.  If you noticed, the guy said his rebound was only about 1/2 turn out from full hard, thats very extreme, and i'd expect that shock to perform as such, with excessive rebound damping.

While you took offense, Im suggesting the guy go back to stock rebound and adjust from there, up to 1/4 turn clockwise, the usuable rebound is found in that range, As fas as 220 lbs, you may be right needing the full stiff click, Im only going off the extremely rough and woopped out roads I ride, many time at post 100 mph. Stock suspension can definitely be made usuable as far as I'm concerned, which is the question the guy was seeking.

Course, you rear suspension doesnt matter much, if the front is not working , have to begin with the front.

At 200 lb for me, full preload is too stiff, course I have an abs model, I think Im about 5 clicks from full stiff, stock rebound was way too quick even when the bike was new.

The reason I say dont bother with sag on the rear shock, is because the non adjustable compression is very linear, and you'll blow right through the travel in trying to set up a traditional sag.  If you noticed, the guy said his rebound was only about 1/2 turn out from full hard, thats very extreme, and i'd expect that shock to perform as such, with excessive rebound damping.

While you took offense, Im suggesting the guy go back to stock rebound and adjust from there, up to 1/4 turn clockwise, the usuable rebound is found in that range, As fas as 220 lbs, you may be right needing the full stiff click, Im only going off the extremely rough and woopped out roads I ride, many time at post 100 mph. Stock suspension can definitely be made usuable as far as I'm concerned, which is the question the guy was seeking.

Course, you rear suspension doesnt matter much, if the front is not working , have to begin with the front.

Unfortunately, without modifying it there's nothing you can do to the front other than preload settings or playing with oil viscosity. 

IIRC, I'm at 4 clicks (I think) on preload and I'm still within the recommended sag max, which is why I think 5 might work for him.  I think there are 7 total clicks on non-ABS bikes. (I've never gone all the way up.)

I didn't take offense, as we should start from stock for reference.  However at 220, turning it toward "H" from stock will likely make it pack down pretty bad, especially in curves with a few bumps.  At least it did with me and I'm a few pounds lighter.  If I start from stock and move it back toward the "S" a little, I can actually feel the tail of the bike riding higher, showing me that the stock setting had too much damping.   Back when I was around 180, stock rebound was about right.  

Wherever it is set, it's always a compromise, and it will be up to him to tweak and test ride to find what's best for him.   We still don't really know what the OP actually means by wallowing, whether it's a soft mushy rear tire going down kind of feel, or whether the whole chassis is moving around underneath him. 

Oh yeah softer rebound will have the bike easily have the rear reaching full extension rather quickly, in certain circumstances, it may kick you in the butt, or Kick the wheel off the ground.  especially hitting potholes in downhill offcambered corners . Softer than stock( or quicker rebound as in less damping)  stock setting is too quick on mine. Over the last 100,000 miles Ive tweaked it in, in small increments over that time frame, to Id say about 1/4 turn. But im not running any set sag, I wouldnt doubt my free sag is virtually none. But it works more than well enough.

 Suspension should be firm , accurate, without being harsh or obviously causing uneccesary movement.

The front suspension I mention, cause it hits stuff first, and if its not performing  right, you can forget about the rear.  So it would be important to know whats been done with the front, cause it can make the rear stand out even more.

Edited by spud786, 13 October 2013 - 03:16 PM.

Over the last 100,000 miles Ive tweaked it in, in small increments over that time frame, to Id say about 1/4 turn.

Those miles alone would make your settings different from my current VFR as I just bought it last year with 8,000 miles on it.  :fing02:

I recall, I had to set the rebound about 1/4 turn in from stock when it was new, as I gradually increased preload over time, to prevent bottoming, as the preload also strenghtens the snap back of rebound, its was necessary to quelch that. Suprisingly its working very well , I performance rode the wet today, traction and hook up was great.

I cant complain

Really Im looking for a replacement for the vfr eventually, although its paid for and runs great, but either trying to make a RR 1000cc comfortable or just keeping the vfr and getting a Ktm as a Motard, street bikes just dont offer alot of excercise.

Over the last 100,000 miles Ive tweaked it in, in small increments over that time frame, to Id say about 1/4 turn.

Those miles alone would make your settings different from my current VFR as I just bought it last year with 8,000 miles on it.  :fing02:

Thanks for the responses guys.

I believe the front is stock.  I only got it a few months ago from a guy who looked about 70kg and he had had the forks serviced due to a blown fork seal.  He said he didnt do nothing to it as he was happy with it.  But I am a bit bigger then him.

Ill wind the rebound out to 1 1/4, bump the preload up to 5 and have a ride on it.  Ill give it a couple of weeks and see how things go.

Cheers

Shane

Dwelling on the front, since we'll assume its stock oil height with stock oil and recently serviced, the front is where I would use a sag measurement to get a base line. Cause excessive preload on the front can cause wheel slippage at lean angles. And the main reason excess preload gets added, is its the only way to stiffen the front end, with available setting wise.

you can use a zip tie around the fork for this, put a zip tie around the fork leg, with front wheel off the ground, slide the zip tie, down to the dust seal. Now very carefully drop the front end without disturbing the suspension as little as possible, (Its okay to disturb alittle, but not as muchas when you sit on the bike) to get the accurate sag measurement.

Now sit on the bike carfefully with both feet on the pegs(your full weight). Now you have compressed the forks and moved the zip tie, so get off the bike without disturbing, and lift the front wheel back off the ground. Measure from the bottom of the zip tie to the dust seal, and now you have your sag measurement. Around 30 or 32mm is about right. adjust your preload and repeat measurement till right.

So now you have spring sag, you have to determine how soft the front is, if you think its too soft. a soft fork is going to generate alot of movement, which isnt going to aide the rear end action.  If you've determined the front feels too soft, and stock fork is for a post 200 lb guy. one fork at a time you can add 5cc of fork oil with a small oral surynge. By taking off the top cap of only one fork, with front wheel off the ground, lower the front wheel cap will seperate, add the fluid, lift wheel back up and reinstall the cap, start counter clock wise cause it has very fine threads, then reverse clockwise when it seats and tighten. (remember top tripple clamp bolt will have to be loose to turn the cap, as there is usually clamping force on the cap. Now do the same excercise to the other fork, dont take off both caps at the same time or front end will collasp when on the ground.

NO more than 5 to 8cc at the most

anyway, that gives you something else to dwell on

So its a nice day..... good enough for a ride....

150kms later.... so what do I think?

Well its definately not worse.  Initial feel is the rear end is now springy or bouncey, but not saying that is bad.  It feels lively but after a few more rides I might have to tweak it (harder???) or wait for opinions on here to come it.  Potentially there was a slight bit of vagueness in it, or maybe some wallowing but right now I wouldnt confirm that. It was a rather gusty and usually this coincided with it.

Spud - I actually was kinda wondering about the front.  The other day I was looking around the bike and noticed clean lines from the dust seals were rather decent for a road bike.  I dont recall have bottoming out yet but did brake hard (pulling into a rest stop) after I got on the highway to realise my earplugs werent in properly.  Thanks for the how-to for adding oil, but what does that actually do to the fork if you dont mind explaining?

Adding the oil, will stiffen the fork, and less dive, standard oil height is 100 mm on a 6th gen , adding 5cc or oil reduces the airgap, or increases the oil height , every how you want to look at it, that 5mm, you now have 95mm oil height.  You only have a limited about of adjustment with oil height, its usually about 10mm on either side of the standard height. too much oil will cause negative effects such as harshness or Hydraulic lock

If happy with the fork, then you probably would not want to do it I only mention the forks as its a prequisite to ever get the rear balanced , The stock fork is fine for general riding, too soft if you start pushing it. 

as too your spring and bouncy, if kicking you in the butt or bouncing off the seat, then there's work to do. I assume your at stock rebound now. Did you crank the preload too(bike sit taller)?

Honestly, you are really chasing an impossible target with the stcok suspension.  Nothing you can do with adjustments will make the problems go away.  The problems you are noticing result from the low spring rate, lack of low speed damping, and excessive high speed damping of the stock VFR suspension.  The only way to correct these would be to replace the internal parts.

Feel free to play around but be prepared to settle for a "least horrible" result.

I did bump the preload to 5 now and rebound back to stock. 

As I mentioned it feels heaps better, but as everyone knows, its never going to be great.  I might look at bumping it to 6 but also thinking of tweaking the rebound a 1/4 harder, to reduce the slight bouncy feel, obviously not at the same time, so I can guage the results.

The adding oil might be something worth looking at.  Can there be any bad results mixing oils, other then the result of mixing different viscosity?

The local suspension guy is away for a couple of months so when he gets back I hope to talk to him, but there are some other recommendations in Sydney (300km away). In the mean time I will just play. 

Cheers

Stock fork oil is ss8(10 weight)   but you said they rebuilt the forks replacing seals, so no telling what they installed, but any standard fork oil, shouldnt be an issue with mixing, espcially when only talking about a small quanity like 5 cc, which is only a cap full or two of oil. 

Normal or stuffed? Well, I think it's normal for the stock suspension to be stuffed, so I'm going to say it's both normal and stuffed! If you get the suspension rebuilt with springs and damping to suit your weight, you'll then realise what the bike is supposed to ride like.

im in the same position, i have a new shock here, a custom wilbers about to go on, but i do not know if my old shock is just stuffed or inadequate for my panniers and topbox. ive had two bottom outs which have cut the rear tyre. its only 10,000km old the bike