Last year I purchased a 6th-gen with ABS. As a middle-aged guy with a wife, kids, and basic street-riding skills that we'll describe as merely competent rather than exceptional in any way, the Volvo-esque safety of ABS and linked brakes were selling points for me. One of the things I really like about the ABS is that it allows me to probe the ultimate braking limits of the bike (on empty roads, naturally) by braking as hard as I can without fear of locking up the front tire and dropping the bike.
Anyway, that's just straight-line braking. Here are a couple questions for folks who push their machines closer to the edge of the cornering performance envelope than I do:
1. How does the ABS perform in the corners? I understand that current Honda ABS is *primarily* useful in straight-line braking, but is it *exclusively* so? Is an ABS-equipped 6th-gen pitched into a corner zero percent more sure-footed than a non-ABS 6th-gen in the same circumstances? Anybody have personal experience engaging the ABS while in a corner?
2. I have observed that some VFRD members are not fans of either the linked brakes or the ABS. Is that perspective primarily associated with high-skill riders who are good enough to actually out-perform Honda's imperfect braking technology, or is there a sense in which even moderately skilled riders are ill-served by either ABS or linked brakes?
I do miss being able to drag the rear brake a bit to help lean in the corners but i was impressed or felt more sure footed when caught in rain.
Unless Honda has updated the ABS on the 6th gen on the latest models, then it is NOT cornering ABS. That said, in some comparison tests with cornering ABS, they used a 6th gen as a demonstrator, the major difference was that 6th gen would lock on corner entry & wash out the front, but abs would release brakes & if there was room for slide it would reengage, not pretty but it worked to a degree.
For the newer system on the 8th gen I've not seen any info on whether its old 6th gen tech or closer to the CBR race ABS, but still not cornering ABS AFAIK.
I didn't like the CBS, so replaced it, but I would love front wheel only ABS, just as an emergency brake assist, when brake modulation or control, is not really an option, like when emergency braking to avoid the car that just pulled out in front of you !
2. I have observed that some VFRD members are not fans of either the linked brakes or the ABS. Is that perspective primarily associated with high-skill riders who are good enough to actually out-perform Honda's imperfect braking technology, or is there a sense in which even moderately skilled riders are ill-served by either ABS or linked brakes?
There are riders out there whose skill levels are such that both linked & ABS brakes are a limiting factor for them. I am not one of them, nor I suspect are the vast majority of us. I do wonder how many riders think they are of that standard and either opine that they loathe the system in order to big themselves up in fellow riders eyes or alter the system to be rid of it inappropriately for their level of competence. I guess we all have to make our own decisions.
Either way, mine stays as it is (albeit with braided brake hoses now). Not had to use the ABS in almost 60k miles of riding the 6th Gen but never say never.
On the 7th gen, yes I can outbrake the ABS system. I practice panic stops regularly because once or twice a season I'll definitely have to.
Last year was a little old lady pulling out in her cage, in the middle of a blind corner then proceeded to do 2MPH.
This year was a guy in his tractor pulling out from a field (at full throttle) just over the crest of a blind hill.
I'm no special rider, just done a few schools, trackdays, MSF, and ridden twisties for 16 years. Definitely not the fastest rider or anything. Far from it. But I've had ABS intervene on dry pavement, forcing a longer stop than it would have been deciding things on my own. Several times under hard braking ABS cuts in and has pushed me past where I wanted to stop, one time a stop sign. And due to this magnificent ABS system I blew the stop sign and it could have been my hind parts. Perhaps it will save me one day in the rain, perhaps not. Either way, I'd love to remove it, and love to de-link the brakes also. I've done the training and am more comfortable controlling things on my own rather than the computer. I remember when these systems started debuting on literbikes. Journos ran tests and could outbrake the computer when they were in charge (ABS disabled). I am not a luddite so I'm fine with having ABS on my bike but I should be able to turn it off. Out where I ride it's more hindrance than it's worth.
On the 7th gen, yes I can outbrake the ABS system. I practice panic stops regularly because once or twice a season I'll definitely have to.
Thank you for the perspective. As a general rule, one can't reliably find the limits of a machine without occasionally exceeding them. One of the unfortunate constraints of a high-dollar, high-risk sport like on-road motorcycling is that most us us (myself very much included) are simply unwilling to risk dropping a five or ten-thousand-dollar machine at speed in order to better comprehend it's capabilities.
So, how did you probe the limits of your machine's front tire traction in order to develop better-than-ABS braking ability?
This year a couple of brands are bringing out production bikes with ABS that works in corners but Honda is not one of them. BMW and KTM I believe.
I am happy that my 2014 does not have linked brakes. It would be even niftier if I could shut off ABS altogether but I'm rarely on surfaces that would make that a substantial liability.
I would not get too caught up in what moto-journalists with a great deal of experience can do in a controlled situation when it comes to braking ability versus ABS, and even those journalists agree that modern ABS is a huge benefit to most riders in most real-life situations. God bless ya' if you're one of those rare few who can totally keep their cool when faced with an SUV or a deer but for most it is biologically impossible. Read up on fear responses and the fight-or-fight responses if you're not sure what I'm talking about.
It has been said that while the MSF does a great job of teaching quick stops, the MSF does not teach emergency stopping. YMMV. ;-)
Some food for thought...
http://www.iihs.org/...to-ride-with-it
My 5th gen had linked brakes (but no ABS) and quite frankly, I couldn't tell much difference between it and conventional unlinked brakes. My Multistrada has ABS (but not linked) and I am a big fan of ABS when street riding. IMO, it's a huge benefit on the street regardless of how accomplished the rider may be. Gravel, wet leaves, transmission oil and who knows what else always seems to be lurking just around the blind corner. I'll take it every time on the road. That being said, I find it to be a bit of a concern on the track where I know it is kicking in too early. Nothing quite so disconcerting as feeling the pulse in the lever when what you really want is eyeball popping stopping. I am very keen on sampling one of the newer bikes that incorporate race grade ABS.
ABS is clearly better. This test was even preformed with a 6th gen VFR800. Read the paper, and it is obvious the benefits of both ABS and CBS.
http://www.msf-usa.o...tance-Paper.pdf
I've had two non-ABS VFRs and now own and '07 ABS. I'll take the ABS from now on. As you stated, you can't find the limits without exceeding them a time or two and that is territory I don't care to experience. I practiced panic stops regularly and thought I was exceptional with the non-ABS until I experience the true abilities of my current model. I was nowhere near the limits. I think any ABS system on any bike is limited in corners because you are asking your tires to perform two separate tasks at once. Your little egg shaped contact patch still has its limits no matter what type of brakes you are equipped with.
Maybe my experience is somewhat anomalous, but (apart from the extra weight) I like the DCBS. I've found it really great on gravel roads or slippery tarmac, where you can stomp pretty hard on the brake pedal with little fear of lockup at either end.
One thing I've read about vehicles equipped with ABS is that people almost never practice panic stops, so in an emergency they underestimate just how hard they need to stomp on the brake to come to a stop quickly, or else they tend to let off the brakes. It's actually alarmingly violent, but not as violent as hitting something.
My next bike will have ABS for sure. I've only locked my brakes twice, both avoiding an emergency. Once the front while filtering and on the white line, when a car decided to change lanes in completely stopped traffic. I still stopped in time, but sliding on the white line was no fun. I only stopped when I reach the pavement again. The other was when a motorist changed lanes at a stop light at a light in front of me. I locked the rear and almost when down, but let off the brakes and swerved around him. I wish I had ABS in both cases.
On the 7th gen, yes I can outbrake the ABS system. I practice panic stops regularly because once or twice a season I'll definitely have to.
Thank you for the perspective. As a general rule, one can't reliably find the limits of a machine without occasionally exceeding them. One of the unfortunate constraints of a high-dollar, high-risk sport like on-road motorcycling is that most us us (myself very much included) are simply unwilling to risk dropping a five or ten-thousand-dollar machine at speed in order to better comprehend it's capabilities.
So, how did you probe the limits of your machine's front tire traction in order to develop better-than-ABS braking ability?
I told you in my previous post already. The track either in school form or open trackday, and hard braking. I ride the same twisty route most weekends so I know where I can push and where I cannot. Plenty of areas and stops to practice hard braking, panic maneuvers. I do this regularly because it happens at least once a season. I own multiple bikes, and the other main one I ride doesn't have ABS or linked brakes. Same exact spot I practice panic braking on both. On my VFR ABS kicks in, lets the wheel rotate when I don't want it to, and extends the stopping distance. One time it almost threw me over the bars as I had the front brake lever fully compressed but the computer/ABS decides that isn't best so let's the brakes go momentarily, and I had to white knuckle the grips and came out of the seat. These practices are always done in a straight line.
This is something all riders should do, practice full power braking. Find an area void of cars. Lightly apply pressure to the front brake to get the pads to grab then give that lever all it has to come to a stop in the shortest distance you can. Start with slower braking, or gradual, larger stopping distance, and work your way up. Do it often. This is a skill that will save your hide and your bike. I even practice it in corners. Leaned over enough that the rear is on the very edge through a corner. Then mid corner, I'll bring the bike up as fast as I can so it's in a straight line and brake in the shortest distance I can. I will also routinely practice locking the rear of my bike with no abs/lbs and holding the lever down until the bike stops. Some of these things are from MSF many years ago.
I do not use the brakes while the bike is leaned over. Sometimes at the beginning of the lean if I've come into the corner too hot and that is a very light touch on the rear. While leaned over, no way. All of your braking should be done prior to entering the corner.
I came from a 2002 Yamaha R6 to the 02 VFR I have today and I can honestly say that for me the VFR's ABS made me a believer. It was way too easy to lock up the rear wheel on the R6 which translates into longer, less controlled stopping distances. The first day I was commuting in traffic I came over an over clear overpass into completely stopped traffic. The linked brakes kept the nose from diving and the ABS allowed me to maintain control for an emergency manuever while still slowing me down quickly. The VFR weighed almost a 100# more than the R6 yet I could panic brake in about the same distance with more control.
I don't do track days, I have taken the MSF course, and everything else I know is just from miles of riding and common sense. As for cornering, when I get aggressive I set my speed for entry so I can accelerate through the turn. The few times I went in too hot I just lightly tapped the back brakes and leaned harder. I do not consider myself an advanced rider and prefer very twisty, scenic roads where I focus on smooth riding and not speed. I make sure I stay on my side of the lane and when on the straight aways I keep relatively close to the speed limits depending on how familiar I am with the area and the roads.
I didn't know the ABS system wouldn't work in cornering (if I read that right) but then I have yet to put myself in a situation where I would need to. That much braking force translates into high siding as far as I can tell and just poor cornering all together in practice. Like luvtoleanit said, no braking while leaning. If you are in too hot then pucker up, lean harder and hope you don't low side it. Either way it's still better than a high side crash.
Thanks for all the great discussion.
The part of the self-education process I'm not grasping (sometimes I'm a slow student) is how one knows when the limits of front tire traction have finally been reached or nearly reached. Let's say I am practicing my panic stops from 60mph, front brake only. On my first attempt, I bring the bike to a stop in 200 feet. I make a few more tries and get that down to 170 feet. After ten attempts, I'm down to 150 feet. If I continue in this fashion, it is guaranteed that I will eventually reach the grip threshold of the tire and lock the front wheel. I've read guys like Nick Ienatsch who write about "briefly" locking the front wheel in these practice scenarios, but most of us aren't professional racers or stunters for whom dropping the occasional bike is just the cost of doing business. My sense is very much that most of us have only the one street motorcycle and are highly non-eager to drop the bike at 20mph in a panic-braking-gone-wrong experiment. Now one can make a solid case that these sorts of experimental mishaps are simply the cost of a valuable education, but here again my sense is that most of us fail this test of commitment.
Have any of us developed a technique for probing the limits of front tire traction in a manner that:
a) You can replicate with confidence
b) Didn't cost a few expensive spills to acquire
As you continue probing your limits in a slow and progressive manner, eventually you will hear the front tire begin to chirp. You know you are nearing the limits at that point. However, for this to happen, you will likely be practicing panic braking from something much faster than 20 mph. You will have to start from 60 mph or thereabouts to have enough speed for you to gradually increase lever pressure while still moving. Whatever you do, increase pressure smoothly (which doesn't necessarily mean slowly). If you get ham fisted and grab a lever full of front brake, you will make the commitment you are trying to avoid.
Why would you ever practice a bad braking technique? Shouldn't you always use both brakes for street riding? Every time you ride, "practice" good (and safe) techniques. I think if you are "practicing" good habits/ techniques you should almost never engage the ABS in street riding. I've only locked a tire twice on the VFR in 5 years. Both times I was not "practicing" good habits, and almost paid the price. I'm much more cautious about getting into situations where I may be at the bike's limit, or more so my limit. I think the VFR's are much higher than mine.
Ride safe.
Thanks for all the great discussion.
Let's say I am practicing my panic stops from 60mph, front brake only.
My next bike will have ABS for sure. I've only locked my brakes twice, both avoiding an emergency. Once the front while filtering and on the white line, when a car decided to change lanes in completely stopped traffic. I still stopped in time, but sliding on the white line was no fun. I only stopped when I reach the pavement again. The other was when a motorist changed lanes at a stop light at a light in front of me. I locked the rear and almost when down, but let off the brakes and swerved around him. I wish I had ABS in both cases.
Not particularly related story: A couple of weeks ago I was toodling alone behind a H-D along Seven Lakes Drive here, enjoying the scenery and not annoyed by the blat of his pipes. Suddenly smoke pours from his rear wheel. The smoke and the howl of his rear tire skidding along the pavement alerted me to a couple of deer darting into our path from our starboard side. So there were a couple of problems here... one of them being that Mr. Hardley saw the deer before I did (drats) and the other being that I don't think he ever went near his front brake because all that time I saw the smoke pouring from the back, he didn't really slow down much. I grabbed a handful of semi-panic brake (more alarmed by his rear tire than a couple of doe) and came to a complete stop while he was still moving.
About that white line you spoke of... One of the things that determined my choice to get ABS was not one but two incidents here where the painted lines at the intersections interfered with my stopping ability and resulted in impact.
In retrospect it's easy to see how things go pear-shaped there. You find something gravely dangerous in front of you, you hopefully reach someplace close to maximum braking without too much time and distance going by, then suddenly your front tire hits the paint of the wide stop line, then the crosswalk line, and if you're very unfortunate one of the series of lines along the length of the crosswalk. Hopefully you haven't tucked are still upright but your braking power has gone to heck, so you're busy readjusting, and by the time you've readjusted you're off the paint, and when you reach better traction on the other side of the lines, you have just a few more feet to re-adjust your braking force again before you make an impression in the side of a van. The truth is ABS can do all that a LOT faster and generally better too.
I'm mature enough to know in spite of a LOT of time on two wheels I'm still not a "pro" and cannot achieve those levels of braking on the very dynamic environment that is the street successfully and reliably. And I know that even seasoned career professionals participating in ABS braking comparisons have lost control of their bikes in controlled environments.
Braking practice is great. No kidding. I recommend it too. But unless your practice course includes the silhouette of a dually towing a motor home popping up in front of you in random places while your guard is completely down, it's really not "emergency braking" practice. For most folks it's still gonna be something of a toss-up as to how much their braking drills will really come into play if/when that "oh crap" moment comes along and the fight/flight response hits you before your limbs even begin to respond to the situation. The adrenaline, no matter how cocky you are, is still going to come into play. It does affect your fine motor skills, which will affect the control you have over the brake lever and pedal.
I am firmly in the ABS and LBS camp. First, because I am not nearly good enough to exceed the limits of these systems, and second, because I believe that ABS would have saved the day in at least two situations when I didn't have it. I have also seen it work wonders during a couple of panic stops, when I didn't have enough time to think and just reacted by grabbing a handful of the front brake, which would otherwise have resulted in a tuck and something ugly happening. Thanks to ABS, it may have looked like a graceful save.
ABS should be standard on all motorcycles!
I am firmly in the ABS and LBS camp. First, because I am not nearly good enough to exceed the limits of these systems, and second, because I believe that ABS would have saved the day in at least two situations when I didn't have it. I have also seen it work wonders during a couple of panic stops, when I didn't have enough time to think and just reacted by grabbing a handful of the front brake, which would otherwise have resulted in a tuck and something ugly happening. Thanks to ABS, it may have looked like a graceful save.
+1 on loving my LBS / ABS brakes. I wish my 5th gen had ABS too.
Why would you ever practice a bad braking technique? Shouldn't you always use both brakes for street riding?
Agreed. Practicing with both brakes is the way to go. The "front brake only" scenario was merely a hypothetical for purposes of focusing on front wheel lockups specifically.
As you continue probing your limits in a slow and progressive manner, eventually you will hear the front tire begin to chirp. You know you are nearing the limits at that point. However, for this to happen, you will likely be practicing panic braking from something much faster than 20 mph. You will have to start from 60 mph or thereabouts to have enough speed for you to gradually increase lever pressure while still moving. Whatever you do, increase pressure smoothly (which doesn't necessarily mean slowly). If you get ham fisted and grab a lever full of front brake, you will make the commitment you are trying to avoid.
Helpful! Thank you.
ABS should be standard on all motorcycles!
Though I have become a great fan of ABS, I would not go quite that far.
A lot of people appreciate motorcycles for the relative simplicity they offer. That has become more and more difficult to find with EPA mandates making things like water cooling, fuel injection and all the extra plumbing impossible to escape, unless you're ready for the complications that come with owning a twenty year old bike. The brake systems seem to me to be the last remaining bastion of simplicity and it would be unfortunate to force everyone into that, as well as forcing them to bear the costs for the extra bits required. On some smaller bikes that can end up being nearly a quarter of the bike's total price!
That of course is just my opinion.
-Brad
I have to respectfully disagree with some who had said to "never brake while leaned over".
First let me say that I know that braking while upright is much safer and easier than making your brain compute what % of the front tires available traction is being used to initiate the turn and what percentage is still available for braking.
Then let me state that so many riders do not comprehend the traction limits of modern radial tires and a good suspension setting.
Specifically to RobF, you can easily and quickly overcome the traction limits of the front tire contact patch if you "grab" a handful of brakes. As many have described in this thread the correct way to do it is to initiate the braking process smoothly, allowing the fractions of a second needed to settle the front suspension, transfer more weight to the front contact patch, and then gradually but quickly increase the pressure on the lever to take advantage of the much larger front contact patch.
If you are not lifting the rear wheel (solo riders only) then you are not practicing an emergency stop, you are merely stopping hard. I think it was LuvtoLeanit who stated that many with ABS who don't practice real emergency stopping procedures can be unnerved by the feedback/pulsing of the ABS taking over and actually extend their stopping distances.
My son was behind me in Tellico Plains a couple of years ago when a Chevy Cadaver pulled out directly in front of me and then realized the two headlights were not one car farther away or maybe the screaming person in the front passenger seat made them stop less than a car length in front of me. While staring at the spot where I needed to stop (bad form - I should have kept my head/vision up) I performed my practice stop routine. In less than a second it was obvious that although I did not have room to stop and miss the car I could scrub off enough speed to allow the truck in the oncoming lane to get past us and move onto the center line and miss the stopped car. I was steering the bike while gently lofting the rear tire.
Back to my original point on braking while turning, pick up a copy of Lee Parks "Total Control" or read some of Nick Ienatsch's rider instructions on the topic of trail braking (like this one http://www.cycleworl...braking-skills/). Nick is the former lead instructor for Freddie Spencer's school and currently runs the Yamaha Champions School.
Trail braking is an extremely useful skill to have in your motoring toolbox.
I use light braking, usually rear mind you, and even change gear while cornering... Smooth is the operative word.
The fact is in the future probably every bike released will have ABS which I don't like for 2 main reasons, yes the newer systems decrease the effects but still me no like.
1. In a situation that requires locking wheels & laying the bike down ABS isn't going to make that easy, I have personally had to lay a road bike down before hitting a barrier gate that with bike sliding on it's side I went under.
2. I ride allot of mountain roads that have corrugation & at warp with hard braking the ABS releases braking force over that type of surface & it can mean your in the bushes. My friend who used to own a VFR1200 had to change pants so to speak after one particular corner when this scenario happened.
I also always brake into corners when at warp it's called trail braking & is also a tool to keep front end loaded.
I've read guys like Nick Ienatsch who write about "briefly" locking the front wheel in these practice scenarios, but most of us aren't professional racers or stunters for whom dropping the occasional bike is just the cost of doing business. My sense is very much that most of us have only the one street motorcycle and are highly non-eager to drop the bike at 20mph in a panic-braking-gone-wrong experiment.
I've done a rider training that was focused on braking and one of the first things you had to do was to brake and briefly lock the front wheel. This was to learn that locking the front wheel does not result in a crash as long as you release the brake asap. So you don't have to be a professional stunter or racer to test the limits of the bike buy yes, it would be nice to know that in case of a mishap a sponsor will supply you with another bike in case one gets totalled :biggrin:
Braking while leaned over was also one of the skills tought. You had to push hard on the bike to keep it leaned over so it would not run wide. I am with cornercarver on this one: modern tires have an immense amount of grip and you can brake quite hard going into a corner as long as you are smooth and gradually load the front. I once had to put this skill into practice, in pouring rain, and the PR2s held up great.
Auspanyol - You should not be changing gears while cornering. By doing so you are introducing an additional input and upsetting the chassis and increasing the potential for less grip and an off. The average rider should have gear selection and braking done by tip in. More advanced may trial brake up until apex to further scrub speed off and then as they begin to pick the bike back up past apex they transition from maintenance to positive throttle application.
Auspanyol - You should not be changing gears while cornering. By doing so you are introducing an additional input and upsetting the chassis and increasing the potential for less grip and an off. The average rider should have gear selection and braking done by tip in. More advanced may trial brake up until apex to further scrub speed off and then as they begin to pick the bike back up past apex they transition from maintenance to positive throttle application.
I don't make a habit of it but I can assure you I¡ve been doing it since 7-8 years of age when it has been necessary and it's all a question of control and practice... it's actually not that hard and never has it upset my line...
Actually the biggest stuff up I ever made on a large displacement road bike was downshifting BEFORE entering a corner... back weel locked up and I ate the guardrail.
I'm not recommending it to anyone... just saying it is posible to do it smoothly... if you are a smooth operator.
Mind you I have clocked up about 625,000 km worth of experience on the asphalt over the last 25 years I have had a licence... not to mention the 10 years before that both on and off road (mostly off... my old man let me ride on the road at 15 to get to 3 day enduro events... completely ilegal mind you)... lots of track time... so, I have experimented and mastered the technique.
However I will admit: THIS IS NOT RECOMMENDED TO ANYONE AND I CANNOT GUARANTEE SAFE RESULTS TO ANYONE WHO IS STUPID ENOUGH TO FOLLOW MY EXAMPLE.
Downshifting will not upset the chassis or front to rear weight bias if the throttle is blipped the instant the shift occurs to bring engine rpm up and match it to the next lower gear. While doing so, only the engine's increased RPM and tone from the exhaust will be noted - no chassis upset. I never let the clutch increase the engine's rpm while down shifting - I always do it with the throttle. It takes lots of practice but it can even be done while braking. Keith Code's video and probably others demonstrate the technique.
Strictly my opinion but if you're riding in the street with so little margin that mid-corner shifts are gonna screw ya', maybe it's time to take that crap off the street and onto the track.
FWIW I fully acknowledge that I should have been heeding this advice myself about 20 years ago. ;-)
I think it was LuvtoLeanit who stated that many with ABS who don't practice real emergency stopping procedures can be unnerved by the feedback/pulsing of the ABS taking over and actually extend their stopping distances.
That's also true of car drivers; if you've never experienced the feeling, it's easy to be freaked out by it and let up on the brakes.
Strictly my opinion but if you're riding in the street with so little margin that mid-corner shifts are gonna screw ya', maybe it's time to take that crap off the street and onto the track
And mine too.
We all push, especially on the fun bits of tarmac. And we all believe we have the skills to do it and are observing well, anticipating etc etc.
Until.....
Strictly my opinion but if you're riding in the street with so little margin that mid-corner shifts are gonna screw ya', maybe it's time to take that crap off the street and onto the track.
I tend to hate this type of blanket statement, you can be stationary on your bike & that is still a risk on the road. There are things you should only do closed roads & track but you can be on a road with a speed limit much higher than some corner speeds allow keeping it legal. That is what riding is about corners & shit can still happen staying within speed limits.
I think it was LuvtoLeanit who stated that many with ABS who don't practice real emergency stopping procedures can be unnerved by the feedback/pulsing of the ABS taking over and actually extend their stopping distances.
That's also true of car drivers; if you've never experienced the feeling, it's easy to be freaked out by it and let up on the brakes.
I think it was the CBR1000 that for a while had the weird ABS that isolated the rider's controls from the pulsing, which at least takes that little bit out of the equation.
I'm still amused that folks think you can practice emergency stopping.
You can practice hard stopping.
You won't know how you'll react in an emergency until it happens.
Strictly my opinion but if you're riding in the street with so little margin that mid-corner shifts are gonna screw ya', maybe it's time to take that crap off the street and onto the track.
I tend to hate this type of blanket statement, you can be stationary on your bike & that is still a risk on the road. There are things you should only do closed roads & track but you can be on a road with a speed limit much higher than some corner speeds allow keeping it legal. That is what riding is about corners & shit can still happen staying within speed limits.
Hate it all ya' want.
It's still true.
I think it was LuvtoLeanit who stated that many with ABS who don't practice real emergency stopping procedures can be unnerved by the feedback/pulsing of the ABS taking over and actually extend their stopping distances.
That's also true of car drivers; if you've never experienced the feeling, it's easy to be freaked out by it and let up on the brakes.
I think it was the CBR1000 that for a while had the weird ABS that isolated the rider's controls from the pulsing, which at least takes that little bit out of the equation.
I'm still amused that folks think you can practice emergency stopping.
You can practice hard stopping.
You won't know how you'll react in an emergency until it happens.
I hope no one else is so amused that they believe that practicing emergency stops is humorous.
I don't know if you are intentionally being obtuse or if you actually believe that you cannot practice emergency stops.
Do you understand that becoming familiar with how hard you can brake, knowing that you can apply your brakes at any time to tighten your line or scrub off enough speed to avoid another vehicle or object is the first step in establishing an instinctive response that could save your life in an emergency situation?
Without a well practiced knowledge base of how to perform an emergency stop your instinct could be to stomp the rear pedal and slide into an object or it could be to grab the front so hard initially that you tuck it or you could be one of those who just stare at the object and ride right into it.
When the tiny lizard part of your brain screams DANGER you have to have an instinctive ability that you have practiced to go to if you want to increase your odds of survival or even avoiding the car/obstacle or other danger in your path.
I have cited some well known sources of trainers who teach that you can and should practice emergency stops. I will read whatever link you post that backs up your statement that it not possible to develop an emergency stop instinct through practice, that one can only practice stopping hard.
And I will again submit that unless you are lofting a rear wheel in your emergency stop practice that you are merely stopping hard and you don't really know how hard you can stop when a circumstance demands it.
The fact is in the future probably every bike released will have ABS which I don't like for 2 main reasons, yes the newer systems decrease the effects but still me no like.
1. In a situation that requires locking wheels & laying the bike down ABS isn't going to make that easy, I have personally had to lay a road bike down before hitting a barrier gate that with bike sliding on it's side I went under.
2. I ride allot of mountain roads that have corrugation & at warp with hard braking the ABS releases braking force over that type of surface & it can mean your in the bushes. My friend who used to own a VFR1200 had to change pants so to speak after one particular corner when this scenario happened.
I also always brake into corners when at warp it's called trail braking & is also a tool to keep front end loaded.
That second one is dead on for my riding and my local twisty roads. It is the asphalt. When I practice panic braking the VFR keeps going when I do not want it to, therefore I do not like it. Same exact spot with no abs and lbs I stop in a shorter distance. The rural roads here are NOT smooth pavement. Much of it they lay the tar/oil, then the pebbles go on. Certain sections you come across the fresh stuff and know that route is ruined for months. I made the mistake of following a novice rider (he was leading our group) through that crap one time out in BFE (had no clue where we were) and I still have the paint chips on my wheels to prove it from pebbles smacking them. Guy kept going too, I just went into first and cruised at school zone speed.
Nevertheless, nobody is going to tell me about riding my roads and asphalt when you have no experience riding there. Same goes for ABS. I've trained to control the bike myself and that's where I am most comfortable. I do not like the computer intervening where I don't want it to. I'm fine with ABS but let me have the option of turning it off. If not I don't want it on the motorcycle, period. It doesn't do well on my asphalt and that's where I spend 90% of my time riding. I am glad you brought up the surface as I failed to mention it. I'm sure on smooth road it works great. Roads aren't smooth here at all. Also why I do not run OEM tire pressures and loathe that absolute as much as I loathe blanket absolute statements about ABS.
I'm no Ricky Racer, and I'm quite sure Glory and some of the other high mileage guys would make me look silly in the corners.
I guess I do all the wrong things sometimes BUT most times I do all the right things on motorcycle.
Thing about riding mc's is there are and will always will be challenges . And I guess thats part of the riding experience . Most any person with reasonable skills can control a 4 wheeled vehicle .
I hope no one else is so amused that they believe that practicing emergency stops is humorous.
I don't know if you are intentionally being obtuse or if you actually believe that you cannot practice emergency stops.
Do you understand that becoming familiar with how hard you can brake, knowing that you can apply your brakes at any time to tighten your line or scrub off enough speed to avoid another vehicle or object is the first step in establishing an instinctive response that could save your life in an emergency situation?
Without a well practiced knowledge base of how to perform an emergency stop your instinct could be to stomp the rear pedal and slide into an object or it could be to grab the front so hard initially that you tuck it or you could be one of those who just stare at the object and ride right into it.
When the tiny lizard part of your brain screams DANGER you have to have an instinctive ability that you have practiced to go to if you want to increase your odds of survival or even avoiding the car/obstacle or other danger in your path.
I have cited some well known sources of trainers who teach that you can and should practice emergency stops. I will read whatever link you post that backs up your statement that it not possible to develop an emergency stop instinct through practice, that one can only practice stopping hard.
And I will again submit that unless you are lofting a rear wheel in your emergency stop practice that you are merely stopping hard and you don't really know how hard you can stop when a circumstance demands it.
I'm not giving an inch on this CornerCarver and I'm not being obtuse but perfectly literal.
Anything you can practice is a "hard" stop, not an "emergency" stop.
The practice is not without value but let's call it what it is.
Would you like me to post research links that prove the sun comes up in the morning while we're at it?