Custom Bike Project (Gen5 Engine) Need Help Getting It To Start

Aight folks, need a lil help here.

I have a custom bike project that has been in process, on and off for a few years. Well, the frame is done, engine is mounted, and I'm finally ready to fir ethis sucker up and do some final testing before finishing it up, problem is .....I can't get ole girl to start :unsure:

Through the course of this project, I have gathered the following in hopes that the wiring and startup would be using as close to the stock VFR800 as possible:

98/99 engine

stock harness

ECU

fuel pump

bank angle sensor

relays

only things that are not from a VFR, is the ignition switch, and the engine stop/start switch......but I have wired those to match the 98-01 wiring diagram and continuity

I have everything plugged up and ready to test, ignition on, engine kill to ON, start button will spin engine...........but I have no fuel pump prime when engine kill is switched to ON, and obviously no start

so far I have checked all of the following per the service manual:

fuel pump (functions when directly connected to 12v)

engine stop relay

fuel cut relay

bank angle sensor

neutral switch

all fuses

kick stand switch (jumpered closed)

all of that tests fine.....but the fuel cut relay is not "relay-ing"...and the pump is not getting power

I have done most of what I can think of but if anybody has some suggestions, it would be much appreciated.

you wouldn't happen to have the stock gauges would you? I only ask for the fi light. if you could plug the gauges in you may get a fi light which could point you in the right direction. looking it up real quick to see what else might cause this... you do still have bank angle sensor or have it jumped?

edit: never mind I see you mentioned it

No, no stock gauge cluster, thought about wiring in a light tho to try and see codes

I got no idea.

I'd really like that if it didn't have the raked out front end. But it does have plenty of room for a front mount rad now.

Nice work.

Thanks keef, surprisingly.....it doesn't "feel" all that raked out when sittin on it

Ok.....got an indicator light and weird it into the harness for the PGM-FI indicator per the manual, just shows solid on

I would pull a couple plugs to verify spark and limit the causes to the fuel system.

After that, I'd suspect the non-oem switch... what on/off switch did you use?

If the motor turns on the button, then your neutral and kickstand switch are good.

What about your clutch switch? Don't remember if that crosses paths with the ignition. It shouldn't, as it shouldn't let the motor turn over in gear...

With the kill switch on, the fuel pump should prime with ignition on. Hmm.

SEBSPEED

I would pull a couple plugs to verify spark and limit the causes to the fuel system.

I will pull plugs and do a spark test tomorrow.......needs to be done........but while it might also be an issue....the fueal pump is still clearly not coming on.

After that, I'd suspect the non-oem switch... what on/off switch did you use?

I am using a harley switch as I am using a harley bar and controls.............but it is brand new and continuity check out to exactly as specified by the wiring diagram

If the motor turns on the button, then your neutral and kickstand switch are good.

neutral switch passes tests indicated by the manual...........and I've tried everything with the kickstand connector open and jumpered closed......although shouldn't be an issue as it as confirmed stayed in neutral

What about your clutch switch? Don't remember if that crosses paths with the ignition. It shouldn't, as it shouldn't let the motor turn over in gear...

while I don't actually have a clutch switch........I have tried everything with it open and jumpered at the connector also

With the kill switch on, the fuel pump should prime with ignition on. Hmm.

yup, that's the kicker............the "fuel cut relay" is not being actibvated to allow the fuel pump to turn on.............and again, I have tested the fuel pump directly to a battery and it works......I have also tested the relay directly to 12v per the manual, and it works as well

It looks like the wheels, swing arm, and forks came off an R1.

Your bike reminds me of what Honda ought to build: a modern-day V65 Magna. For the life of me, I can't understand what possessed them into building bikes like the NM4 or CTX700N instead.

Cuz they did :cool:

Wild looking bike. Good on you for taking a different path with your build! There's been some abominations over the years where people have tried to take VF/VFRs down this path, but yours works! Post some more pics please... what's the set-up for cooling?

Have you tested the fuel pump itself?

Thanks!!

Yes, fuel pump functions when connect directly to 12v, fuel cut relay tests good......but pump does not come on when engine kill is switched to ON

Went with a Ducati S4R oil cooler, just have one of the VFR radiatoir dangling at the moment.....but I'll be doing a front radiator, once I find the one with the hose connections just where I want.

but all that kinda stuff is easy......gotta get it fired up first :comp13:

Electricity is FM (f'n majik) so take this with a grain of whatever. In the fifth gen wiring harness is a "test port" located toward the rear on the left. For FI light testing, the port can be used to jumper the system and the resulting blinking of the FI light conveys a diagnostic set of blinks. I jumpered that port with a paper clip and forgot to remove it. The bike would not start. FI light on constant. For what that's worth.

Good luck.

Might be a stupid question... but is the bank angle sensor mounted with the right orientation?

Yes, bank angle sensor is oriented correctly. And yes, I know of the test jumper......

Trace out the power path on the diagrams. I don't have a diagram for your year, but the power should go to the ignition switch and kill switch (don't know the order) but you can check that with a simple test light. Since the push start switch energizes the start relay you're good there.

I remember reading somewhere, that the later FI bikes need (or might need) the guage cluster to run, as it interfaces rpm, speed, and maybe other info back to the ECU. I may be wrong, but for some reason it made me think about it, also the older LH Porsche cars used the tach signal to drive the spark signal (via a coax cable) to the "ignitors" which in turn sent the signal to the coils.

On your bike, the ECU inputs and outputs calculate the fuel, and time the spark. Because your bike is not energizing the fuel pump, maybe the circuit goes through the tach, or another component that was removed. Make sure both the cam and crank pulse generators are plugged in as well.

I found the diagrams - nice download!.....

It looks like the KILL/RUN switch engages/disengages the ENGINE STOP RELAY, which powers the FUEL CUT RELAY (fuel pump relay), all 4 injectors, all 4 coils, and some emissions solenoids.

The FUEL CUT RELAY (fuel pump relay) only controls the fuel pump, but runs off of the same power circuit as all of the above items, so if they have no power, then the fuel pump will not as well. This relay is (ground) switched by the ECU, which I thought would need a tach signal, but as others have mentioned, the fuel pump runs prior to cranking the engine - so I stand corrected.

Many manufacturers daisy-chain the relays like this to ensure everything is working correctly - the vehicle will not start without the ECU recognizing all is good.

The ENGINE STOP RELAY should have these four wires:

Red/orange

Black

Black/white

Black/purple

If you have power at the Black/white wire at the ENGINE STOP RELAY with the handlebar switch in the RUN position and the ignition switch ON, then all is good so far. That same wire goes into the FUEL CUT RELAY (fuel pump relay) in 2 places, and should have power there too. If so skip the next paragraph.

If you do not have power here, that means the KILL/RUN switch is not engaging the relay. Check fuse "B", the Black/purple wire goes to the ENGINE STOP RELAY, and should have power. If you have power at the Black/purple wire, but none at the Black/white wire, then the ENGINE STOP RELAY is not engaging because the ENGINE STOP SWITCH (tip over switch) is faulty. This switch is connected to fuse "D" which also powers the batt2 side of the kill switch. The ground (switched) wire is Red/orange at the ENGINE STOP RELAY, and goes to the ENGINE STOP SWITCH (tip over switch) where it is Red/white after the 3-pin connector. From there it should go through the switch to ground (Green wire). I don't know why this switch has power going to it, maybe they don't use mercury anymore and it is electronically controlled - anyone with experience here????

If you have power at the Black/white wires (all three) at the ENGINE STOP RELAY, and the FUEL CUT RELAY (fuel pump relay), then you just need the ECU to ground the FUEL CUT RELAY (fuel pump relay) in order to run the fuel pump.

The FUEL CUT RELAY (fuel pump relay) should have these four wires:

Brown/black

Black/white (same wire as above, they are connected)

Black/white (same wire as above, and previous, they are all connected)

Brown

If you have the guage cluster available, plug it in and see if it starts.

Yes like RC says, for the fuel pump to run, once the ignition is switched on and the kill switch is on, the bank angle sensor (located near the instruments) energizes the engine stop relay (located on the right side below seat).

The ESR feeds power to energize the fuel cut relay (right side further back).

The FCR then powers the pump and thence to ground.

I imagine it would be a simple job to jumper around the various relays, and check for 12v as you go down that chain, until you reach the fuel pump. You should just need to jumper the FCR with the ignition turned on and the pump should be powered. This is dependent on the 10A sub-fuse being live/intact/not corroded.

If you still have no pump action (and the ground checks out OK and not corroded) then the fuel pump itself could be expired. I recently bought an ST1100 and the fuel pump in that was completely clogged with varnish deposits from the fuel sitting and then evaporating.

Best of luck.

Great info fellers.

RC, I don't have a stock gauge cluster. ................I do have power to the BL/W wires going to the ESR and FCR ..........I can physically hear and feel the ESR engage when I switch the KILL/RUN switch to RUN, but seems the ECU is not "connecting"/grounding the Br/Bl wire to actually turn the pump on.

There are no bad fuses but will check power outs at the fuses tomorrow.

Terry, this fuel pump spins up just fine with 12v directly hooked up (short period, just to test) and is clean as a whistle.

RC1237V

I found the diagrams - nice download!.....

Glad someone is getting some use out of it.

If you bypass the ECU and connect that brown/black wire directly to ground, I believe your kill switch should still function (By cutting 12V supply to ESR). Since the starter turns, you might be able to check if the engine will at least run. Also check to make sure all of your ECU ground connections are clean and have good contact. Remember that the ECU still needs to switch ground to the ignition coils to cause field collapse to generate a spark.

I don't know about newer ECUs, but the 98-99 has no gauge cluster returns from speed or RPM. The speed sensor sends pulses to both the gauge and ecu; and the ECU sends RPM pulses to the gauge without return.

Spraintz

Went with a Ducati S4R oil cooler, just have one of the VFR radiatoir dangling at the moment.....but I'll be doing a front radiator, once I find the one with the hose connections just where I want.

I posted 4th Gen radiator dimensions and pics in this topic:

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/82913-radiator-sizes/

an older Vulcan radiator has the hose connections right about where I would want em, upper near center coming back........and lower on the left corner, also coming back.

But again....kinda doesn't matter if I can't get her fired up lol :491:

ok.....I've gone through and checked continuity through the harness to the ECU connections.........continuity good, and connectors are clean and good, as I checked continuity past the connectors

fuel pump still doesn't engage.....and there is no spark when turning the engine over. I do have 12v at each of the Bl/W wires of the coils tho

Shitty, there is no way to lie to the coils. We need the ground switching from the ECU. Does the ECU have a part number on it or do you know what year bike it came out of? I can check what my 98 ECU has on it when I get home.

In the mean time, I'll stare at the schematic a bit more and see if something jumps out at me. Just so we are on the same page, you have:

1. Bypassed clutch switch (shorted green/white to green/red)

2. Bypassed sidestand switch (shorted green/white to solid green)

3. Functioning neutral switch

4. Starter turns (This indicates that green/red is shorted to ground and starter switch is functional)

5. +12v on black/white at all connectors (Indicates ESR and bank sensor(ESS) are functional and thus the kill switch and key are functional)

For the lack of spark, we could have issue with the ignition pulse generator or the cam pulse generator. This doesn't explain the lack of ground on brown/black however.

MadScientist, yes on the exact same page.

ECU is 38770-MBG-A01 (from a 2000)