Rear brake use

Howdy, all!  Quite a while since I've checked in.

I took my CBR for fork seal replacement today.  In conversation, tech said that she teaches motorcycle safety and they recommend using rear brake almost exclusively.  Anybody heard of this advice?

I use FRONT almost exclusively - am I wrong?

(Shop services hogs mostly...)

Probably discussed before, but I searched.  Honest.

[image: DSC00095 crop.jpg]

Just take a look at the pic of your bike.

 Huge brakes at the front, tiny brake at the back. 

Whaddaya you reckon?

She said sumptin' about stopping too fast(???) and lack of control.  I disagree, just wondering if there's any instructors out there with edjumicated opinions.

Jeepers! Hope she was a good motorcycle tech, and not relying on her skills as an instructor. That advice could not be more wrong.

Watch a GP race and check the weight transfer during hard stopping, the rear wheel is usually either skipping or completely off the ground, and all the bike's weight is on the front. At that point, applying the back brake will slow the back wheel but not the bike i.e. it is useless. Lots of racers don't use the back brake at all except for wheelie control. 

I'd suggest you take a course (with someone else) or at least check out The Twist of the Wrist book/videos.

I'm no newbie, mate.  30 years riding (so far); no course in my future. 

The thing is, what's the latest INSTRUCTIONAL advice these days.  I know what I like, but what she said seems counterintuitive.  I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt on what the latest professional advice is.  I've heard car instructors are advising some crazy chit these days too.

Teaching classes and instructors since the 80's.... Nothing has changed, still about 70% front and 30% rear.... Obviously varies between bikes, sport bikes 90/10, cruisers 70/30, and others in between. Stopping too fast, really ? and which has better control (feel), a hand and fingers or a foot in a boot...... More schools are actually teaching trail braking as well, which has no back brake involved once lean is initiated...

This is why Cruisers are over 1/2 of the fatalities in the last 5-6 years. Most do not know how to stop. "Had to lockem up", "Locked er up and slid it out", so much stupid shit....

She should be retrained or fired... probably teaches for Harley-Davidson Riders Academy, not an MSF school..... Either way she is doing her students a huge and dangerous disservice.

She needs a whack on the side of the head!

1 hour ago, GP Paul

I'm no newbie, mate.  30 years riding (so far); no course in my future. 

The thing is, what's the latest INSTRUCTIONAL advice these days.  I know what I like, but what she said seems counterintuitive.  I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt on what the latest professional advice is.  I've heard car instructors are advising some crazy chit these days too.

I'm no newbie either (I have 5 more years on you!). But as Scotty, says " ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain". 

I was quite serious about reading or watching A Twist of The Wrist. Now that is a well thought-through and well-reasoned bit of instructional advice. Even an old(er) dog like myself found some new stuff to think about.

4 hours ago, GP Paul

Howdy, all!  Quite a while since I've checked in.

I took my CBR for fork seal replacement today.  In conversation, tech said that she teaches motorcycle safety and they recommend using rear brake almost exclusively.  Anybody heard of this advice?

I use FRONT almost exclusively - am I wrong?

(Shop services hogs mostly...)

Probably discussed before, but I searched.  Honest.

[image: DSC00095 crop.jpg]

Firstly that's a Great shot of the CBR. BUT that advice on rear brake use will surely KILL you in an emergency situation. Extremely poor advice. By all means get what you can out of the rear, but the front is vitally important. Just two weeks ago I had a Harley rider behind me come off on a 90deg bend, he only applied the rear brake locked up the wheel on the bend and graciously low sided the bike and himself into a ditch. Proper use of front and rear brake just prior to the bend would have easily sorted things out. Good brake proportioning takes practice, ABS is also a great help.

The only time you would exclusively use the rear brake is sharp turning at walking pace.

I kind of use both most of the time in traffic, usually very lightly on the rear. Under hard braking, the rear is easy to lock up when you unload the rear tire. The only time I use more rear than front is idle speed in first or slower and maybe ~12 MPH or slower when in dirt or other slick surfaces (ferry deck, usually, especially when wet).

You WILL NOT be able to brake hard on rear brake alone. I don't know how cruisers are or why they seems to think front brake is evil, but those are the only people I've ever heard that from. Maybe it's the different weight balance, maybe they just can't do anything that isn't ham-fisted. I did lock the front on one before and it seemed like it happened way too easily, but that could have easily been because I wasn't used to the bike.

I've got linked brakes on my bike but from what i understand, its set up to distribute 70% front and 30% rear.  I also downshift letting the clutch help slow the bike as well.  But on linked brake bikes why would the factory set it up this way if it would be wrong.  That instructor needs some instruction....... :goofy:  

I would question where she teaches motorcycle safety, and then speak with her boss to make sure she quits spewing garbage.

Currently the MSF still teaches both brakes all the time, but MSF is aimed at brand new riders.

Advanced riding schools will teach both brakes while vertical, and racing schools will concentrate more on trail braking to the apex of turns.

When the bike is leaned over and the front forks are loaded from using front brake, caution must be used with the rear brake because so much weight has been transferred to the front tire.  A lot of racers are weary of rear brake use because of this, or even mill the rear disc to lessen it's braking efficiency preventing it from locking up and low siding.

In general street braking maneuvers, both brakes smoothly, with progressive pressure is still the best way to keep safe.

MotoGP posted a couple of videos of different riders with cameras on their right hand and right foot, showing differing braking techniques. One was barely using it, the other was on it a lot. Neither came close to relying on rear only. I realize that I'm talking about racing, but the same rules apply for effective braking and you can throw the anchor just as hard in an emergency.

I use the rear brake probably more than the norm by the sounds of it..  I use it to dampen the slow down not loading up the front when it's not necessary, then I use it for most stops under say 15mph in stop and go traffic.  I don't see the need to use the front then.  Then yes in the lose stuff,  I use the rear coming into a parking lot or a blind corner and there's gravel or some sort of road debris, yea rear brake. Then on the fast mountain roads I use the rear in unison with the front, being the rear is used ever so slightly keeps the rear end in place too,  if you know what you're doing it works great.  but to use it as your main braking SMH  shame on her for that  NOT!! you use both as necessary.

Thanks very much for input and responses, gang.  I knew I could count on the Vifferati to give sane info.  It all confirms what I thought I knew about braking. 

I'm not losin' my mind!

Situation in this town is that the Honda dealer WILL NOT schedule service; they expect you to drop off bike and they will get to it in order.  Last time I asked, it would have been two weeks or more of the bike sitting in the wind, sun, rain, whatever just to get an oil change!  (It was actually 32k service.)  So I've started taking the bike to the only place I've found so far that does schedule.  They do what they say.  So I want to stay on their good side..

Again, thanks for responses!

1 hour ago, RVFR

I use the rear brake probably more than the norm by the sounds of it..  I use it to dampen the slow down not loading up the front when it's not necessary, then I use it for most stops under say 15mph in stop and go traffic.  I don't see the need to use the front then.  Then yes in the lose stuff,  I use the rear coming into a parking lot or a blind corner and there's gravel or some sort of road debris, yea rear brake. Then on the fast mountain roads I use the rear in unison with the front, being the rear is used ever so slightly keeps the rear end in place too,  if you know what you're doing it works great.  but to use it as your main braking SMH  shame on her for that  NOT!! you use both as necessary.

I'm with you. Pretty much do it your way.  At slow speeds the rear brake is the way to go.  Still allows you to steer the front in tight spots.  I trail brake a lot into tight turns, no rear use.  At the track very rarely use the back brake.  Takes too much concentration and not necessary if you have good front brakes. I think I met her brother years ago.  He was riding a Harley and not only was he not using the front brake, he had completely removed it.  Told me if you use the front brake you will go over the handlebars.  I think he's dead now.  

It does seem at this day and age, any safety instructor would have learned the value of front and rear brake and the reason they are usually stated first 'front' then 'rear' as in that sequence more front than rear, for most street riding.  However, the venue this instructor is most likely teaching is a parking lot closed course where everything is controlled and rear brakes can then get a student through the course.  It's no excuse for her misguided advice, but I can understand how she may have become confused.  When I attended an MSF course about 15 years ago, the instructors were leaning toward too heavy of a use of the rear brake than I use, but I was there to spy on them and it didn't make any difference to my attendance objective.

Now if she was to clarify under what conditions she prefers rear brakes, such as slow speed maneuvering in wet grass, she may have had a valuable pointer.  On the other hand, depending on the bike and rider even on slick surfaces, there are those who only use front brake and are always under control.  For most of us, I think, the use of more rear brake than front in tight parking lot maneuvers on a slick or gravel surface is preferred.

I used to teach motorcycle training at a local safety council (similar to MSF course in the USA). We instructed that "it depends". 

Cruiser with lots of weight - start with rear and apply front - too much front too soon equals danger but most of the braking is done by the front brakes

Other bikes – start with front brakes and apply equal pressure evenly and continuously (not grab the brake but apply the brakes), rear brakes keep the bike hunkered down on the ground

With ABS – emergency avoidance, use brakes as above, or without avoidance grab and pull them as firmly and fully as possible.

Dirt bikes – more rear until controlled braking happens, then front

We also stressed the importance of body position and bracing yourself for braking (especially in emergency situations).

Hope that helps.

I cant believe this discussion has gone this far without a mention of skill. In normal street riding, you need to develop your braking skill! Be able to use both brakes simultaneously!  Then in a braking situation, be able to judge that you need/want more/less front or more/less rear or neither. Understand what braking of each feels like and how each biases the dynamics of the bike. To teach for the street one first then other is a dis-service. You will be teaching a bad habit. Teach to learn skill!

Ok and then there's this.... SMH for all you with linked brakes,   LOL you're using the rear too, weather you want to or not.  Just saying.

I am currently an MSF instructor.  In the basic rider course we teach the students to use both brakes all the time unless you are doing some slow tight turns, then use the back. 

i spend a lot of time telling people to squeeze the from brake firmly with increasing pressure as the bikes weight transfers forward.  

The rider handbook states that the best way to stop quickly is to use maximum pressure on both brakes WITHOUT locking either wheel.  Definitely takes some practice  to develop that skill.  

I have also also heard quite a few stories from people about how they heard that the from brake will make you fly over the handlebars or about how they 'had to lay it down'.  That always makes me shake my head. Crashing to avoid a crash....

That's just their excuse because they don't want to admit they couldn't control it.

Surprisingly, I use my rear brake almost all the time, well any time the front wheel is rotating when I squeeze the front brake lever!

GP Paul, 6/20/2017 at 10:29 PM

Howdy, all!  Quite a while since I've checked in.

I took my CBR for fork seal replacement today.  In conversation, tech said that she teaches motorcycle safety and they recommend using rear brake almost exclusively.  Anybody heard of this advice?

I use FRONT almost exclusively - am I wrong?

Is this a joke cause it's not funny? When first stated to ride motorcycles took MSF BRC and sometime after class two weeks maybe a month was curios what the difference is with just using rear bakes versus front and rear. Just using rear it will take forever to stop personally think it's more like 80% front and 20% rear or 85% front and 15% rear. Bike I have has ABS it is really tough to get the ABS to reduce fluid pressure on just the rear can not stress it enough tough really tough! Never did test just the rear on wet roads that might trip the ABS to reduce pressure in lines. Front and rear all the time period!

Duc2V4, 6/22/2017 at 6:06 PM

Surprisingly, I use my rear brake almost all the time, well any time the front wheel is rotating when I squeeze the front brake lever!

:cheerleader: :fing02:    +1

Front - 2 Calipers and 2 rotors

Rear - 1 Caliper and 1 rotor

Where does weight want to go when it is being stopped?

In the car brakes are slammed on anything not fastened down where does it go?

This applies only to linked brakes.

Consumer Motorcycle News used to publish used bike prices a couple of times a year. They used KBB. At the end of the articles they published some best-of statistics. The tested fifth gens were deemed tied for 6th best at 108.x feet 60mph to 0 mph. Most bike reviews consider 120 feet exceptional.

The first time I addressed my brakes on my first fifth gen the Honda Tech noticed my front and rear brake pads were not wearing as equally as possible. He said to always use both brakes. The theory behind linked brakes is that both together caused the bike to squat down more rather that pitch forward. And I've experienced some amazingly less-than-expected braking events. Pulling out of the traffic lane to allow more room for an emergency braking I ended up stopping much short of the bumper of the car ahead of me that I thought I would hit without the manoeuvres.

Bottom line: they really do work great together.  

For my size (140#), my bike (ZX14), and my tires (Hypersport S21), my skill level, it's always front brake.  I've never done a stoppie on this bike, but during real emergency stops or practiced emergency stops, the rear tire does lift or nearly lift.  That means no traction on the rear.  No traction, no stopping assistance.  If the rear wheel is off the surface or near to it, any amount of rear brake is only stopping the rotation of the rear wheel and adding nothing to stopping the bike (this could be different with linked brakes, if by applying rear brake addition braking was achieved in the front brake system). 

Different riders, different bikes, difference tires, different results.  It's good we have general rules, but it disappoints me when I read or hear instructors give hard rules to new riders without considering the equipment and skill level of the audience.  I think the MSF could easily spend a full day on stopping.  A small amount of time lecturing principles and theory, then a few hours with school bikes, then the rest of the time on the students bike, on a range that provided for at least 50-60 mph.  This would provide time, practice, skill level development for the student to find what works best for their own bike.  Maybe they already have such a course!  I doubt it.

2 hours ago, EagleSix

For my size (140#), my bike (ZX14), and my tires (Hypersport S21), my skill level, it's always front brake.  I've never done a stoppie on this bike, but during real emergency stops or practiced emergency stops, the rear tire does lift or nearly lift.  That means no traction on the rear.  No traction, no stopping assistance.  If the rear wheel is off the surface or near to it, any amount of rear brake is only stopping the rotation of the rear wheel and adding nothing to stopping the bike (this could be different with linked brakes, if by applying rear brake addition braking was achieved in the front brake system). 

Different riders, different bikes, difference tires, different results.  It's good we have general rules, but it disappoints me when I read or hear instructors give hard rules to new riders without considering the equipment and skill level of the audience.  I think the MSF could easily spend a full day on stopping.  A small amount of time lecturing principles and theory, then a few hours with school bikes, then the rest of the time on the students bike, on a range that provided for at least 50-60 mph.  This would provide time, practice, skill level development for the student to find what works best for their own bike.  Maybe they already have such a course!  I doubt it.

I understand your critique of MSF minimum braking instructions. MSF could do something about that by explaining that it is a Basic course. Hopefully to get them on the street for seat time on the basics. At the end of every course it should be emphasize that all riders should plan on further education, at a minimun in a MFS Advanced Rider Course or, better, at a local track. This is where the time can be devoted to improving individual braking skills. I know the Advanced Rider Course at a local techincal college made a HUGE improvment in my riding skills. I continue to do at least one a year in May, early in our riding season here in the Land Of Low Weather Expectations.

On the street I employ both the fronts and the rear In an effort to
squat the weight transfer whereas on the track I only concentrate on
the fronts...

Light weight Ceramic Matrix Composite rotors $2,500 a set

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Light weight Ceramic Matrix Composite rotor off a Ducati $500 used $1,500 new...

[image: DSCN1974.JPG]

3 hours ago, MaxSwell

I understand your critique of MSF minimum braking instructions. MSF could do something about that by explaining that it is a Basic course. Hopefully to get them on the street for seat time on the basics. At the end of every course it should be emphasize that all riders should plan on further education, at a minimun in a MFS Advanced Rider Course or, better, at a local track. This is where the time can be devoted to improving individual braking skills. I know the Advanced Rider Course at a local techincal college made a HUGE improvment in my riding skills. I continue to do at least one a year in May, early in our riding season here in the Land Of Low Weather Expectations.

Yes, I agree.  Most if not all of the courses I have attended over the years, somewhere stated that additional training as a follow-up would be helpful to the student.  I'm good with that part.  However, throughout the class, it would be more responsible, in my opinion, if the instructors/coaches were to point out, while on subject, which course they provided that the student could explore the exceptions.  I certainly do not want to sound like I am so critical of MSF that their courses are of no value.  I think they are of value and I'm going to attend another one in early March.  I think I will have a good time and hopefully learn something new of value, and if not learning something new, I'm sure I will re-learn somethings of value that perhaps I need to improve on, and of course the range time with coaches should help tighten up my skills.

It doesn't really matter on a Hog. They don't stop well anyway.  Try that on a sport bike and you won't last long.  Ask her how many mies she has ridden motorcycles.  

As there were no other training available to me until September, I elected to attend an MSF Confident Riders Course a few weekends ago, which also allow me time to visit with some old Army buddies, as well as, a visit with my kids.  I knew going in it was not my preference, but being I'm always a student, why not.

It was the typical MSF course, ten students (2 didn't show) and 2 instructors.  It was 5 hours of wait, start, stop, wait, swerve, wait, weave, brake, stop, wait, start, brake, wait, round and round, etc.  The instructors were pleasant, read directly from the playbook and conducted themselves in a professional manor only yelling at the same student twice.  The yelling part was to get his attention as twice he went the wrong direction and other students scrambled to avoid him.

I thought that was the best part of the class, because it came closer to simulating street riding than the rest of the course.  Imagine that, a wrong way rider!  Kind of funny, but also serious as In the past two years in the Phoenix metro there have been probably over 20 deaths caused by wrong way driver crashes.  The most recent last week killed 3.

Anyway the braking instruction were typical for the MSF.  A short read from the playbook about dual braking front/rear, and a demonstration which really doesn't show anything about how much front vs how much rear.  No discussion about different bike braking systems.  Just a short mention about ABS brakes.  No mention about linked brakes.  No mention about trail braking.  What they did was little more than the Basic Course.  A refresher yes, but nothing in addition, which is disappointing.

Two aspects of safe riding that are important for me is braking and negotiating turns/curves, and this course being a step up from the Basic Course seems would be ideal for exploring those two skills with advanced\additional information and training above what was presented in the Basic Course.  As the majority of single vehicle crashes involve curves and braking I would think more attention would have been paid during this class.

As for the curves/turns at speed, meaning in around 20 mph in 2nd gear (the fastest any maneuver was made during this course), I found it interesting that the instructor, during every demo, counterbalanced (his upper body) when initiating every turn, as if he were swerving.

A discussion about counter-steering was short, from the book and during open discussions, again as in other MSF courses, the explanation included counter-steering to be used above slow speeds such as 10-15 mph, which is at most flawed, and at least incorrect.

I was surprised that during open Q&A on the range, the lead instructor only provided 2 incorrect answers, and more specifically 2 incorrect complete answers.  One was concerning maximum speed you can swerve and the other concerning how to properly cross from one lane to another when there is a small rut to cross over.

Again, as I have stated in other post, I am critical of riding instructions regardless of the course.  I am even more critical of my own technique when instructing (I'm not a specific motorcycle instructor).  Regardless of what I feel are shortcomings of the MSF courses, overall I think they are of value for the majority/most riders.  And for many riders the MSF courses are the only available and practical.

But one more ironic pet peeve.  I have never attended any parking lot class, both MSF and others, that actually spent anytime instructing student how to park!!  Although probably not one of those safety issues that are going to cause fatalities, there are probably more 0-3 mph lay-overs during parking, at the pumps, during tight maneuvers, or in-out of the garage than any other time, and they can cause injury and of course bike and property damage.

3 hours ago, EagleSix

Anyway the braking instruction were typical for the MSF.  A short read from the playbook about dual braking front/rear, and a demonstration which really doesn't show anything about how much front vs how much rear.  No discussion about different bike braking systems.  Just a short mention about ABS brakes.  No mention about linked brakes.  No mention about trail braking.  What they did was little more than the Basic Course.  A refresher yes, but nothing in addition, which is disappointing.

Two aspects of safe riding that are important for me is braking and negotiating turns/curves, and this course being a step up from the Basic Course seems would be ideal for exploring those two skills with advanced\additional information and training above what was presented in the Basic Course.  As the majority of single vehicle crashes involve curves and braking I would think more attention would have been paid during this class.

As for the curves/turns at speed, meaning in around 20 mph in 2nd gear (the fastest any maneuver was made during this course), I found it interesting that the instructor, during every demo, counterbalanced (his upper body) when initiating every turn, as if he were swerving.

A discussion about counter-steering was short, from the book and during open discussions, again as in other MSF courses, the explanation included counter-steering to be used above slow speeds such as 10-15 mph, which is at most flawed, and at least incorrect.

I was surprised that during open Q&A on the range, the lead instructor only provided 2 incorrect answers, and more specifically 2 incorrect complete answers.  One was concerning maximum speed you can swerve and the other concerning how to properly cross from one lane to another when there is a small rut to cross over.

Again, as I have stated in other post, I am critical of riding instructions regardless of the course.  I am even more critical of my own technique when instructing (I'm not a specific motorcycle instructor).  Regardless of what I feel are shortcomings of the MSF courses, overall I think they are of value for the majority/most riders.  And for many riders the MSF courses are the only available and practical.

But one more ironic pet peeve.  I have never attended any parking lot class, both MSF and others, that actually spent anytime instructing student how to park!!  Although probably not one of those safety issues that are going to cause fatalities, there are probably more 0-3 mph lay-overs during parking, at the pumps, during tight maneuvers, or in-out of the garage than any other time, and they can cause injury and of course bike and property damage.

You should come north and attend one of our MSF courses. While the one you attended may be "typical" for your area, which i doubt, ours are much different.

We address everything from braking systems, Front/rear ratios, Thresh-hold braking, and Trail braking. And we discuss all the options for lines through curves, as well as "Proper" posture for riding curves. AND we cover parking ;)

As a long time MSF certified coach, it is sad when people say they attended a "Typical" MSF course and were less than impressed. It's like getting pulled over by a less than stellar cop, and saying all cops suck... There are over 10k MSF certified coaches out there, and not all are as well versed and skilled as we would hope. You should send your write up to the school as they would probably appreciate the feed back. There is at least 1 MSF certified coach in AZ who also provides coaching to many racers down there, and his class would have probably been above your expectations.

If MSF is below your level, some of us also coach at the local track where you can go WAY over 20mph ;)

Good write up, even if it makes me sad.......

MaxSwell, 2/15/2018 at 12:46 PM

I understand your critique of MSF minimum braking instructions. MSF could do something about that by explaining that it is a Basic course. Hopefully to get them on the street for seat time on the basics. At the end of every course it should be emphasize that all riders should plan on further education, at a minimun in a MFS Advanced Rider Course or, better, at a local track. This is where the time can be devoted to improving individual braking skills. I know the Advanced Rider Course at a local techincal college made a HUGE improvment in my riding skills. I continue to do at least one a year in May, early in our riding season here in the Land Of Low Weather Expectations.

Good on you :) getting people to return for more advanced classes is a problem with training sites all around the country. Most riders feel that after the Basic class they have riding down pat... Reality is they probably only know enough to start learning....

Just now, slo1

Good on you :) getting people to return for more advanced classes is a problem with training sites all around the country. Most riders feel that after the Basic class they have riding down pat... Reality is they probably only know enough to start learning....

I have figured out that I should never stop learning.

At least until I become infallible which is about to happen any minute now. :pinocchio:

3 hours ago, slo1

You should come north and attend one of our MSF courses. While the one you attended may be "typical" for your area, which i doubt, ours are much different.

We address everything from braking systems, Front/rear ratios, Thresh-hold braking, and Trail braking. And we discuss all the options for lines through curves, as well as "Proper" posture for riding curves. AND we cover parking ;)

As a long time MSF certified coach, it is sad when people say they attended a "Typical" MSF course and were less than impressed. It's like getting pulled over by a less than stellar cop, and saying all cops suck... There are over 10k MSF certified coaches out there, and not all are as well versed and skilled as we would hope. You should send your write up to the school as they would probably appreciate the feed back. There is at least 1 MSF certified coach in AZ who also provides coaching to many racers down there, and his class would have probably been above your expectations.

If MSF is below your level, some of us also coach at the local track where you can go WAY over 20mph ;)

Good write up, even if it makes me sad.......

Well, my intent was not to make you sad, and I probably should have started a thread or posted to another, but the OP was talking about a supposedly MSF coach giving out bad information, so maybe it is appropriate here.  I applaud you and your fellow coaches in Utah for be stellar Rider Coaches.  Of the past 15 or so years I have only attended 4 parking lot MSF classes (not including the dirt bike class), all in the Phoenix area and although that may not be enough in the eyes of 10K coaches to be representative, you may agree it is far more than most riders have taken.  And please understand the "typical' comment is my opinion, as everything in my post, and for me this was "typical", as in the same way the other classes were conducted.  However there was one difference and I pointed that out.  In previous 3 classes there was 1 dickhead coach in each (not the same coach in each class).  In this class both instructors conducted themselves professionally and I recognized them for that.  Also, being 'typical", in my opinion, is more on the MSF leadership more than the individual coaches.

I have read many threads and comments posted by students and coaches stating they follow a playbook and many do it by reading their cue cards word for word.  These 2 instructors in this class appeared to be doing the same and I can surmise they were as thorough and complete as possible by the book to assure uniformity in conducting their class.  So, when I refer to "typical" it is more on the MSF.  I have heard more than one rider coach express they wish they could do more, or perhaps something different, but have little flexibility.

So, I will support you as a Rider Coach with a statement that hopefully most MSF rider coaches are of your high standard and your courses are better than those I have taken in the Phoenix Metro area.  And, I will repeat, I feel the MSF courses are of value  for the majority/most riders.  And, Thank You for the invite, as I might next year take you up on it.

As for the the 20 mph, I didn't say the MSF Confident Riders Course was below my level.  I just made a comment the fastest this course provided for was 20 mph which again, in my experience is typical for these type parking lot courses.  However I have had track training (actually at Miller in your fine state of Utah) and may in fact get some more in September, but need to get a few months closer to the date to determine availability for a private lesson.

I hope we are friends.  I need to post this, but will return later and in all fairness post a comment on the good things I think the MSF does.  And Thank You slo1 for the kind words.

I'm back, that was a good dinner!  Now I will risk hijacking the thread, my apology to GP Paul, members and Admin.

I got this from the MSF website 'About Us' which may also be part of their mission statement....

"The Motorcycle Safety Foundation® is the internationally recognized developer of the comprehensive, research-based, Rider Education and Training System (RETS). RETS curricula promotes lifelong-learning for motorcyclists and continuous professional development for certified RiderCoaches(SM) and other trainers. MSF also actively participates in government relations, safety research, public awareness campaigns and the provision of technical assistance to state training and licensing programs."

I think is their value, backed by 10 thousand dedicated RiderCoaches and other sponsors, staff, and contributors.

1 hour ago, EagleSix

In previous 3 classes there was 1 dickhead coach in each (not the same coach in each class).  In this class both instructors conducted themselves professionally and I recognized them for that.  Also, being 'typical", in my opinion, is more on the MSF leadership more than the individual coaches.

I have read many threads and comments posted by students and coaches stating they follow a playbook and many do it by reading their cue cards word for word.  These 2 instructors in this class appeared to be doing the same and I can surmise they were as thorough and complete as possible by the book to assure uniformity in conducting their class.  So, when I refer to "typical" it is more on the MSF.  I have heard more than one rider coach express they wish they could do more, or perhaps something different, but have little flexibility.

LOL :) all good. I train Coaches and try to weed out the Dickheads........ ;)

MSF schools are basically franchises, each with their own culture. In some cases they are also State controlled or run. Attitude and aptitude varies greatly, and some states/schools have more latitude than others.

Let me know when you get to Tooele, we can get a beer...... 

superfunkomatic, ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 10:22 AM

I used to teach motorcycle training at a local safety council (similar to MSF course in the USA). We instructed that "it depends". 

Cruiser with lots of weight - start with rear and apply front - too much front too soon equals danger but most of the braking is done by the front brakes

Other bikes – start with front brakes and apply equal pressure evenly and continuously (not grab the brake but apply the brakes), rear brakes keep the bike hunkered down on the ground

With ABS – emergency avoidance, use brakes as above, or without avoidance grab and pull them as firmly and fully as possible.

Dirt bikes – more rear until controlled braking happens, then front

We also stressed the importance of body position and bracing yourself for braking (especially in emergency situations).

Hope that helps.

Why would there be a different process for a cruiser?  I don't understand why the rear brake first would be suggested.   Thanx.

6 hours ago, gloryracing

Why would there be a different process for a cruiser?  I don't understand why the rear brake first would be suggested.   Thanx.

Sports bikes have a high c of g, when you apply the front brakes the front suspension dips and loads up the front tyre so you can then brake harder.

A custom bike has a low c of g, if you apply the front brake it tends to lock the front wheel before the tyre loads up. By leading with the rear brake before the front you load the front tyre before the front brake is applied.

On a sport bike, with clear, clean and smooth surfaced roads, the rear brake during an emergency threshold stop is going to be of little to no use, as the rear tire has little to no contact with the surface.  Depending on the speed and distance to obstacle, on road surfaces that are wet, dirty, sandy, slick, etc. things will change the preferred method of braking on a sport bike as they will on any other bike.  To give absolute braking methods on bike types differing only in weight class without further explanation of the exceptions, such as road surface, linked/non-linked brakes, etc., is to mislead new and inexperienced riders in my opinion.

1 hour ago, EagleSix

To give absolute braking methods on bike types differing only in weight class without further explanation of the exceptions, such as road surface, linked/non-linked brakes, etc., is to mislead new and inexperienced riders in my opinion.

Most who attend the Basic Rider Course are completely new to riding.  They have no muscle memory and ride anything from cruisers to sport bikes.  IMO you have to keep it simple.  Teaching smooth gradual application of both brakes makes a lot of sense and is correct for an inexperienced rider in almost all situations.  Make sure that they understand that most of braking comes from the front and help them avoid locking the front wheel in gravel/slick surfaces.  Otherwise, you're teaching over their heads.  

Curious, what would you teach differently for linked brakes?  Understanding the difference is good.  But it seems learning to use both is a good practice.   

Personally, I don't use much rear brake unless gravel or needing to use my right hand when stopped on a hill.       

1 hour ago, gradus

Most who attend the Basic Rider Course are completely new to riding.  They have no muscle memory and ride anything from cruisers to sport bikes.  IMO you have to keep it simple.  Teaching smooth gradual application of both brakes makes a lot of sense and is correct for an inexperienced rider in almost all situations.  Make sure that they understand that most of braking comes from the front and help them avoid locking the front wheel in gravel/slick surfaces.  Otherwise, you're teaching over their heads.  

Curious, what would you teach differently for linked brakes?  Understanding the difference is good.  But it seems learning to use both is a good practice.   

Personally, I don't use much rear brake unless gravel or needing to use my right hand when stopped on a hill.       

The only bike I have owned recently that had linked brakes was a Honda VFR800A.  On this bike the brakes were working properly (as designed as far as I could tell) and almost as well as I suspect that would have when new.  The amount of rear brake applied when I only used front brakes was about 10-15%, which is way more than I would normally used in an emergency where I would reach threshold braking, so I would not use any rear brake on that bike.  Also, when testing and using the rear brake in addition to the front, there was not measurable increase in stopping distance.  Another rider I knew had the same model but a few years newer and his rear brake was almost totally ineffective when applying the front brake only.  Both would appear to an MSF instructor as being equal, because they do not actually test the effectiveness of the particular bike being used by students in classes that students bring and use their own bikes.  I would have to ride and test the braking system on any students bike before putting them in the position to learn emergency threshold braking in a practical form.  However, I don't teach MSF and understand there isn't enough time for instructors to test every students bike other than the customary static test performed during inspection before class.

I understand and respect your opinion in preventing students from information overload.  However I was responding to the statement in a previous post,

"Cruiser with lots of weight - start with rear and apply front - too much front too soon equals danger but most of the braking is done by the front brakes

Other bikes – start with front brakes and apply equal pressure evenly and continuously (not grab the brake but apply the brakes), rear brakes keep the bike hunkered down on the ground With ABS – emergency avoidance, use brakes as above, or without avoidance grab and pull them as firmly and fully as possible.

Dirt bikes – more rear until controlled braking happens, then front"

Although I think superfunkomatic made a good post, I don't agree with it entirely because there are no exceptions or further specifics to determined on what braking systems are on what bikes in the category of "Cruiser with lots of weight", "Other bikes", "ABS" and "Dirt bikes".  My point is, general statement may be misleading to those who have not learned enough to read between the lines, the small print, or before and after the lines.  We probably disagree not on avoiding information overload, but rather how much information can be presented before a student reaches the point of overload.  And, also, in the Confident rider course I recently took and the previous Advanced Riders Course I took years ago, there wasn't much of anything presented differently during the braking session of these courses from the Basic Riders Course I too in 2006.

And, I agree with your statement "But it seems learning to use both is a good practice."  However I would qualify that as it is a good practice to learn to use both the front and rear brakes on your specific bike, both at the same time, just the front and/or just the back, as well as different proportions when combining the two depending on the braking needed, when, where and why.  Yes, it can become a discussion, and it doesn't have to all be delivered one right after the other, but I wouldn't want to get very far off subject or let a space of time expire before presenting at least a rudimentary explanation especially when a student is training on their own bike.

Both my bikes have linked brakes.  My work bike, a 1300 pound Harley, I used always on, but modulated back only for cone course and both brakes every other time.  For not linked sportbikes, I used the back to continue braking when I needed to ease off the forks being so compressed.

Guzzi's way of doing it:

[image: Moto Guzzi 850 LeMans II 78.jpg]

gloryracing, 4/2/2018 at 5:40 AM

Why would there be a different process for a cruiser?  I don't understand why the rear brake first would be suggested.   Thanx.

Sport bikes have stronger breaking in the front and different centre of gravity. Load the front, use the stopping power of the front, rear brake bites and holds the bike balanced and finishes the braking. Weight distribution also comes into play - sport bikes have nearly 50/50 weight front to back.

Cruisers and longer raked bikes have more weight aft and need the rear to first compress the front suspension and load it. It allows the weight to shift forward and then firmly and continuously apply the front. Heavy on the front brake first and it's more likely to low-side the bike or cause a front brake skid (which is particularly scary for a new rider - i.e. induces more panic braking).

That's the theory in the riding courses.

gradus, 4/2/2018 at 2:45 PM

Most who attend the Basic Rider Course are completely new to riding.  They have no muscle memory and ride anything from cruisers to sport bikes.  IMO you have to keep it simple.  Teaching smooth gradual application of both brakes makes a lot of sense and is correct for an inexperienced rider in almost all situations.  Make sure that they understand that most of braking comes from the front and help them avoid locking the front wheel in gravel/slick surfaces.  Otherwise, you're teaching over their heads.  

Curious, what would you teach differently for linked brakes?  Understanding the difference is good.  But it seems learning to use both is a good practice.   

Personally, I don't use much rear brake unless gravel or needing to use my right hand when stopped on a hill.       

Linked brakes with ABS - grab and pull as much brake as you can. Both brakes at the same time - no need to be progressive with ABS it modulates the brakes for you.

EagleSix, 4/2/2018 at 4:58 PM

Although I think superfunkomatic made a good post, I don't agree with it entirely because there are no exceptions or further specifics to determined on what braking systems are on what bikes in the category of "Cruiser with lots of weight", "Other bikes", "ABS" and "Dirt bikes".  My point is, general statement may be misleading to those who have not learned enough to read between the lines, the small print, or before and after the lines.  We probably disagree not on avoiding information overload, but rather how much information can be presented before a student reaches the point of overload.  And, also, in the Confident rider course I recently took and the previous Advanced Riders Course I took years ago, there wasn't much of anything presented differently during the braking session of these courses from the Basic Riders Course I too in 2006.

3

You're right. The post was meant to keep it simple. In the course, when I taught it years ago, I would talk about all the contingencies and possibilities - on/off-road, ABS or no ABS, types of bikes, types of conditions, etc. The Canadian and MSF courses are meant to be simple to give easy to follow techniques that will work with muscle memory and little or no thinking (just do it). As you become a better rider and more experienced then you know where the lines blur in technique and 'rules' and can decide for yourself. 

Basic courses = basic survival skills (if you remember them and practice). :)