Fuel Injection Light on after cutting out

OK, so strange happening this evening on a 160 mile ride. Was pottering along at around 80 mph on the A1 and the bike suddenly cut out (I saw the Rev counter drop to zero) and a pulled over and let the clutch out on deceleration. The bike restarted and the Fuel Injection light glowed. It then got brighter and brighter. 

Bike ran 100% for the next 100miles. Got to destination and then stopped and restarted. Light was out but then came back on and the tickover is lumpy. 

I haven’t read ECM codes yet.
 

When I arrived at my destination the bike would restart and the FI light stayed on. On one occasion the fuel pump continued to run - it didn’t shut off. 
 

Some are suggesting alternator/rectifier - but how would that impact the fuel injection?

Any suggestions? 2002 VTEC.

35 minutes ago, BSR67

OK, so strange happening this evening on a 160 mile ride. Was pottering along at around 80 mph on the A1 and the bike suddenly cut out (I saw the Rev counter drop to zero) and a pulled over and let the clutch out on deceleration. The bike restarted and the Fuel Injection light glowed. It then got brighter and brighter. 

Bike ran 100% for the next 100miles. Got to destination and then stopped and restarted. Light was out but then came back on and the tickover is lumpy. 

I haven’t read ECM codes yet.
 

When I arrived at my destination the bike would restart and the FI light stayed on. On one occasion the fuel pump continued to run - it didn’t shut off. 
 

Some are suggesting alternator/rectifier - but how would that impact the fuel injection?

Any suggestions? 2002 VTEC.

I have checked the ECM codes - 23 - Faulty Oxygen Sensor. 
 

Other Honda makes and models fit? 
 

thx

Hello again BSR67. 

Ok, first thing is have a very close look at Main Fuse B 30amp located next to the Starter Relay. This fuse provides the main power for All your EFI stuff. It can suffer badly from overheating and high resistance connections, check for any heat stress for the fuse and wiring especially in inline connector. See photo.

Regards your "alternator/rectifier" concerns. If you can get your bike going confirm your charging voltage with a voltmeter directly on the battery.

What voltage do you read at Idle and 5000rpm?

Check these two items and get back to us.

I am also suspicious about bad Grounds for your ECM!

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Hi Grum!

Good to speak again! Bike has been faultless until now - and I've covered 650 miles.

I'll check the connector as directed.

Also, will buy a multi/test meter. As you'll recall I work away from home in the week, so don't have all my tools (and the bike is at work having made the journey last night!). Will get on to Amazon Prime delivery now!

Will also check ECM grounds. Could be a lengthy task.

Will be back soon,

BSR67

Hi Grum

Connections look to be in good shape. Multimeter landing tomorrow. 

The bike does run but the FI light stays on. 

Will update. 
 

Alex

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Hi Grum

Connections look to be in good shape. Multimeter landing tomorrow. 
 

Will update. 
 

Alex

Hi Alex. Good to know your bike at least runs and Main Fuse B and its wiring are in good shape.

Its really important chasing the fault you have that when referring to the Fi Light, what is the position of your Sidestand?

In the UP position and you have an Active fault or something wrong with the ECM the light will be constantly ON.

In the DOWN position if you have an Active fault the light will flash the code. Do you still have the code 23 flashing? Or is the Fi light just permanently On, irrespective of Sidestand position?

A code 23 Oxygen Sensor will not kill your bike or give issues like you're describing. So don't worry about this just yet, you have bigger fish to fry at the moment!

When doing the charging voltage test mentioned. Do this in both cold just after start And when the engine has fully heated up.

Also check your Battery Terminals are clean and tight.

BSR67, 6/7/2021 at 3:44 PM

Fuel Injection light glowed. It then got brighter and brighter

BSR67, 6/7/2021 at 3:44 PM

Light was out but then came back on and the tickover is lumpy. 

BSR67, 6/7/2021 at 3:44 PM

On one occasion the fuel pump continued to run - it didn’t shut off.

Based on these three comments my concern is with the Grounds (three of them) for the ECM at the Light Gray connector B1, B2 both a Green/Pink wires and B14 a Green wire, depending on which version ECM you have.

But first check your charging system and battery terminals clean and tight.

14 hours ago, Grum

Hi Alex. Good to know your bike at least runs and Main Fuse B and its wiring are in good shape.

Its really important chasing the fault you have that when referring to the Fi Light, what is the position of your Sidestand?

In the UP position and you have an Active fault or something wrong with the ECM the light will be constantly ON.

In the DOWN position if you have an Active fault the light will flash the code. Do you still have the code 23 flashing? Or is the Fi light just permanently On, irrespective of Sidestand position?

A code 23 Oxygen Sensor will not kill your bike or give issues like you're describing. So don't worry about this just yet, you have bigger fish to fry at the moment!

When doing the charging voltage test mentioned. Do this in both cold just after start And when the engine has fully heated up.

Also check your Battery Terminals are clean and tight.

Hi Grum

Fuel Injection light stays on when running with the side stand up. 
 

More digging on earths needed. And maybe the ECM. 

Battery terminals are clean and tight (battery replaced a handful of weeks ago during the last round of FI grief!)
 

Amazon Multimeter has landed. Will message voltages later. 

Alex

Hi Grum

Here we go:

Battery Voltage pre-start (battery off bike) 12.77v

Battery Voltage pre-start (battery fitted to bike) 12.77v

Battery Voltage immediately post start 14.33v

Battery Voltage after approx 5-7 minutes, engine temp 80 centigrade 14.25v

Battery Voltage with lights on High Beam after 5-7 minutes, engine temp 80 as before - 12.55v

FI light not on. On centre stand. Side stand up. 
 

The only other thing I have done is disconnect these two wires from the +ve and -ve of the battery which I think feed a 12v socket outlet/USB which is not connect at the USB end. The terminating wires are tapped up. 
 

Have checked continuity of 30Amp fuse. 100% OK. They get bloody hot don’t they! 
 

Thanks

Alex

I’ve cleared the fault code. FI light stays solid when dealer plug bridged. At the moment FI light goes out after removing bridge ……..!!! 

Ok, so Charging Voltage measurements! Which ones are at Idle? Which ones are at 5000rpm? As requested!

Lets try and move on based on your original fault description and the suspicion of an intermittent faulty Ground.

1. Check these two ground points. Make sure they are well bonded to frame, no damaged wires and they measure Zero ohms/continuity back to the battery negative terminal.

[image: IMG_1094.PNG]

2. Remove your left main fairing and remove the coolant reservoir. Just behind the frame weld taped on the wire harness is this ground junction block. You'll need to expose and inspect it. Remove its cover and a common buss bar that joins all the sockets. Hopefully you'll see something like this with a burnt connection. Take a photo or two, see what you find.

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Hi Grum

Whoops - amateur hour last night! Forgot about the 5,000 readings. 
 

Here they are:

Voltage pre-start - 12.69v

Voltage after start at 5k rpm - 14.41v

Voltage at 75 Centigrade and at 5k rpm - 14.39v

Resistance between battery negative terminal and frame grounding point - see photo!

Will pull side panel this evening. Got to get to work!

Thanks Grum - appreciated. 
 

Alex

Ok lets forget any issue with your battery or charging system. It appears to be in order!

HOWEVER you have your meter on the Wrong scale for measuring continuity! You are actually reading 20ohms on that scale and thats NOT good for a Ground!

Recheck those Grounds with meter set to the 200ohms range. The value you should read should be virtually the same as shorting the leads together 00.0 ohms. Again Black lead on negative terminal red lead probing the two Ground points.

If you do read anything like 20 ohms then you have a BAD Ground point.

Thanks Grum! Amateur hour continues! 😄

I'll re-check later today and revert, plus the findings from under the panel.

I haven't checked the grounds on the ECM yet - do this at the same time or after the earth bar checks?

Thanks

Alex

14 hours ago, BSR67

I haven't checked the grounds on the ECM yet - do this at the same time or after the earth bar checks?

Two of the ECM grounds being the Green/Pink wires B1 and B2 possibly are at the rear tank area grounds, do you see at least 2 Green/Pink wires at that Ground point?

The other B14 Ground Green wire possibly goes to that Ground Block.

The block needs to be checked after confirming frame grounds.

Thanks Grum

Will be checking later. Will revert. 

Do you know where an ECM test harness is available? Part number look up doesn’t yield any results. 

Alex

46 minutes ago, BSR67

I'll re-check later today and revert,

14 minutes ago, BSR67

Will be checking later. Will revert

Mate, you're doing a lot of reverting! Reverting what? Or do you mean report?

Is it still Amateur hour? Or is there something in your drink at the moment :wacko:

Dont worry about an ECM test harness....hopefully you'll never need or use one!

I mean report back! Wish I was having a drink!!!!! 😀

I’ll report back later ….!!!!!!

Alex

Hi Grum

I’m going to be reporting back early next week. I’ve investigated, found the plug but only have basic tools here so need to collect a load from home at the weekend to allow me to remove more parts. 
 

The plug is hard to access - I need to remove the airbox etc to improve access. 
 

Back soon. 
 

alex

10 hours ago, BSR67

The plug is hard to access - I need to remove the airbox etc to improve access. 

This is becoming a little frustrating!

Until you confirm the frame grounds as in step 1 are either good or bad, you don't need to be jumping into step 2 with the harness ground block. Your problem just might be only with the frame Grounds! Particularly when your meter, even on the wrong range was indicating 20 ohms resistance, absolutely no good for a ground!

So, is there anything to report regards properly measuring the two frame Grounds, and if you can confirm there are two Green/pink wires at that point as mentioned?

Are you sure there's not enough flex in the harness to access the ground block as per photo?

Can you see a cable tie anywhere that you could remove that may allow better access by allowing you to carefully pull the harness down slightly again as per photos?

So again.

1. Confirm Frame Grounds are good or bad back to battery negative.

2. Inspect the harness Ground Block for any defects, refer photos.

3. Confirm the 3 ECM grounds B1, B2 and B14. These must also be well Grounded back to battery negative.

Are you able to basically understand/follow what we are doing via the wiring diagram which I trust you have?

Also by at least confirming the color codes of the ECM Grounds mentioned will mean I'm also working from a correct circuit diagram.

9 hours ago, Grum

This is becoming a little frustrating!

Until you confirm the frame grounds as in step 1 are either good or bad, you don't need to be jumping into step 2 with the harness ground block. Your problem just might be only with the frame Grounds! Particularly when your meter, even on the wrong range was indicating 20 ohms resistance, absolutely no good for a ground!

So, is there anything to report regards properly measuring the two frame Grounds, and if you can confirm there are two Green/pink wires at that point as mentioned?

Are you sure there's not enough flex in the harness to access the ground block as per photo?

Can you see a cable tie anywhere that you could remove that may allow better access by allowing you to carefully pull the harness down slightly again as per photos?

So again.

1. Confirm Frame Grounds are good or bad back to battery negative.

2. Inspect the harness Ground Block for any defects, refer photos.

3. Confirm the 3 ECM grounds B1, B2 and B14. These must also be well Grounded back to battery negative.

Are you able to basically understand/follow what we are doing via the wiring diagram which I trust you have?

Also by at least confirming the color codes of the ECM Grounds mentioned will mean I'm also working from a correct circuit diagram.

Hi Grum

I will check the frame grounds later today. Didn’t realise 20 Ohms is sufficient to form a bad ground. 
 

I could not see a cable tie on the loom but will recheck. There is just so little slack on it. The plug is bound up in insulating tape, right?
 

Will follow the steps. And understand the methodology. 
 

thx

Hi Grum

A small step. 
 

Photograph attached of ground anchor point left hand side of the bike (as you sit on it). It shows the two green/pink wires. Also two further green wires. 
 

The second photograph shows the battery ground bolted to the frame cross member. 
 

ALL readings (black multimeter lead on battery negative, red lead to anchor bolts/copper/steel connectors and to alloy frame immediately next to the anchor points) are the SAME as touching the two multimeter leads together - on 200 ohm gauge the reading is 0.08 ohms. The ground function is consistent and works. 
 

I have cleaned all spade ends and frame mounting points with grit paper as a precaution. All readings are the same at 0.08 after cleaning. The photographs are before cleaning. 
 

Thanks

Alex

Step 2

Here is the earth block. I’ve unwrapped it. It is far easier to access from the top. 
 

Going to separate the cap shortly. 
 

alex

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Stage 2 continued. 
 

Plug exposed. Some light scorching. 
 

The lightly scorched terminals across from one another read 0.08 ohms when linked back to the battery negative. Others give no reading. Some are Differing values. Video to follow. 

Thanks

Alex

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Step 2 Continued. 
 

Video checking the pins on the grey ground bar. One side at a time. 
 

One connector is slightly higher - the second pin in the second video. 
 

Will welcome your thoughts on that second pin and also, the test regime for the ECM to ground. 
 

Thanks Grum

Alex

Good job. You may have found the most likely cause of your fault! There is a lot of devices relying on the one wire and its connection to the other ground wires via the buss bar.

The burnt pin is for the main wire that does go to Ground. All the incoming green wires are joined at this point via the buss bar and then go to actual Ground via that burnt pin and its wire. You can end up with multiple issues because of a bad/high resistance join between the buss bar and the Main Ground wire.

Its also interesting to see that there are two Green/Pink wires at that frame ground point, according to my drawing these will be the ECM Grounds B1 and B2. However the B14 ECM Ground appears to go to Earth Block. This could explain the changing brightness of your Fi Light and the continuous running of your Fuel Pump.

The tricky issue now is how you're going to fix it. Similar to the Orange colored earth block on the 5th gens that causes multiple issue, you could.

1. Cut all wires from the block then solder All the wires together. Wrap the bundle in tape or heat shrink sleeving.

2. See if you can break away all the gray plastic exposing the wire sockets then re insert the buss bar into all the sockets and solder each one. Cover it all with tape.

3. Perhaps you could just remove the one burnt main wire and solder this on top of the buss bar, leaving all others as they are.

4. From your frame ground or the negative of your battery add a nice new wire, then solder this to the top of the buss bar while removed from the earth block. Make sure all the buss bar pins are clean then add a good coating of Ox-Gard to the pins and sockets then reinsert the buss bar. Don't worry about the top plastic cover just tape it up and your done. Also I'm not sure if the buss bar is just pressed into the sockets Or if its embedded into the gray end cap with only the pins exposed, in that case you may need to carefully dig it out from the end cap! Can you take a photo of the buss bar or end cap?

NOTE - I've never needed to do this job so I'm only making suggestions - NOT based on personal experience. Perhaps there are other members out there who have experienced this issue that might be able to offer suggestions on repair.

Given the poor access you have to the earth block. My thoughts are to give option 4 a go. Purchase a small tube of Ox-Gard it's an excellent product for this application as it greatly assists electrical conduction and blocks out moisture, exactly what you want here. Make sure you create a nice solder joint on the buss bar of your new wire. I'd find a wire gauge just slightly bigger than the gauge of the wire with the burnt socket, plug the buss bar back in with the Ox-Gard applied then terminate the other end of your new wire at the frame Grounds or battery Negative. Wrap the earth block up in tape and your done. The good thing with this option is most of the work can be done easily away from your bike, as you already have the buss bar removed. You're new wire ground wire is simply bypassing your original burnt wire.

Also seeing you're going to get some Ox-Gard, undo the main two frame Grounds and apply the stuff there.

Good luck hope this sorts out your bikes issues. :fing02:

P.s Sorry cant seem to play your videos!

[image: OxGard.jpg]

I sometimes wonder why manufacturers put together such lame design configurations.  The two conclusions I've come to have been that for one the average half-life of a typical bike is probably not very long (wrecked /stolen/neglected) so just make it to last for that average life and/or two the design is such to facilitate ease and speed of assembly.  That fuse block seems like a lousy idea, but during the build all the workers need to do is snap the two halfs together and move on.  We're all probably operating these bikes well past their expected life so find ourselves overcoming these types of issues.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect there is at least a bit of truth to it.  For me these projects keep me out of bars and wasting my money on fast women, so maybe for me it's a good thing!  

Both your points are correct. Driven by bean-countre department to keep production costs as low as possible.

Kawasaki and Toyota suffers from same multiple grounds attaching to single-point issues too.

Yep, its a real shame that these harness Grounds are simply not soldered as a bunch and sleeved at the production phase. This would surely be cheaper than pins and sockets a buss bar and connector housing! Soldered during manufacture would mean you'd never have an issue with multiple harness Grounds for the life of the bike.

Hi Grum/All

This is the busbar. Interestingly there is a natural break between the two sides at the far end of the plug (the opposite end to the main earth wire). You can just about see it in Photo 2. 
 

Alex

Hi Grum/All

It’s a damn shame the video doesn’t work. It shows me running the multimeter along the pins with the black lead on the negative battery terminal which we know is securely earthed. 
 

Taking the photo attached here, the readings on the lower row of ten pins working from RIGHT to LEFT are (where on 200 ohms the multimeter reads 0.08 ohms when the red and black are touched together): 

pin 1 1.0 

2 1.3

3 1.4

4 no continuity

5 ditto

6 0.10

7 no continuity

8 ditto

9 0.10

10 no continuity

Taking the upper row working from RIGHT to LEFT:

Pin 1 (slightly scorched) 0.09

2 2.8

3-10 no continuity

So, if in the table above pin 1 (slightly scorched) is the main earth wire, the earth is Good at 0.09 ohms (0.01 off base reading). 
 

Pin 2 is 2.8. Is this the culprit?

I’ve re-assembled for the time being and plan a test ride. The only pin of concern is upper pin 2. 
 

I will report back later - probably Monday. 
 

Thanks all for guidance and patience. 
 

Alex

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2 hours ago, BSR67

Hi Grum/All

It’s a damn shame the video doesn’t work. It shows me running the multimeter along the pins with the black lead on the negative battery terminal which we know is securely earthed. 
 

Taking the photo attached here, the readings on the lower row of ten pins working from RIGHT to LEFT are (where on 200 ohms the multimeter reads 0.08 ohms when the red and black are touched together): 

pin 1 1.0 

2 1.3

3 1.4

4 no continuity

5 ditto

6 0.10

7 no continuity

8 ditto

9 0.10

10 no continuity

Taking the upper row working from RIGHT to LEFT:

Pin 1 (slightly scorched) 0.09

2 2.8

3-10 no continuity

So, if in the table above pin 1 (slightly scorched) is the main earth wire, the earth is Good at 0.09 ohms (0.01 off base reading). 
 

Pin 2 is 2.8. Is this the culprit?

I’ve re-assembled for the time being and plan a test ride. The only pin of concern is upper pin 2. 
 

I will report back later - probably Monday. 
 

Thanks all for guidance and patience. 
 

Alex

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Alex.

Sorry to tell you this, but the resistance measurements you have taken of all the pins are all of no use at all with respect to the Negative terminal. This is because you have the buss bar removed so now all the incoming grounds are floating, they're not connected to anything other than the device at the opposite end, they are no longer grounded.

As already mentioned, all the incoming ground seeking wires rely on the one outgoing Ground wire which is Grounded, the one that is scorched (top right corner of your photo). The problem is the connection of the buss bar and socket for the all important grounding ground wire has become overheated/burnt/scorched/high resistance, meaning all the devices hanging off the other green wires won't be seeing a good Ground they need to function properly.

Sorry I cant explain any better than that!

2 hours ago, BSR67

Hi Grum/All

This is the busbar. Interestingly there is a natural break between the two sides at the far end of the plug (the opposite end to the main earth wire). You can just about see it in Photo 2. 
 

Alex

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Ok, if you say there is a break between the upper and lower pin rows, then that might just mean you have two wires that are properly grounded, one for each row.

So check with your meter on ohms, one lead connected to the upper row of pins, the other lead to the lower row. If you have zero ohms then all pins are joined together. If you measure open circuit then you have two rows with two grounding wires, this would help to share the load on the true ground wires. However this changes nothing with the suggested repair options. Ultimately all wires on the earth block need to be connected to each other.

Thanks Grum. 
 

Good advice as ever. I’ve managed 84 miles on the bike without a hitch so far. 
 

Will undertake the busbar mod as soon as possible - soldering the group together. 
 

Shocks me, as it does others, how undersized and basic the wires and devices are given the load and heat. 
 

Thanks very much

Alex

Wires are actually sized properly for load. Problem is corrosion over time on surface of terminals. This corrosion increases resistance of connection and creates heat. Made worse by concentrating multiple wires' current through one or two terminals.

7 hours ago, Grum

Yep, its a real shame that these harness Grounds are simply not soldered as a bunch and sleeved at the production phase. This would surely be cheaper than pins and sockets a buss bar and connector housing! Soldered during manufacture would mean you'd never have an issue with multiple harness Grounds for the life of the bike.

Up until '60s in U.S., kids in school were still taught how to tie wires and solder. Then with faster mechanised production in '70s, crimping was used to lower production costs. It was all downhill from there!