02 starter running

Hoping Grum will chime in on this one!

Got home from a ride, stopped and put the bike in neutral on sidestand (running) to open the garage door.  Heard a weird sound, wasn't sure under the helmet.  Clutched in and put in gear and it stopped.  Curious... put in neutral, started again.  Shut off the bike.  Sound continued - it was the starter cranking!  Put bike in gear, stops.  Take key out, flip kill switch.  Click into neutral starter is engaging, even with the bike off. 

WTH?  How can my starter be continuously running without pressing the start button, with the kill switch on, with the key out of the bike?  But only in neutral, whether bike is on or off

Needless to say I left the bike in gear, disconnected the battery, and signed on to VFRD! 

The starter motor is powered by the starter solenoid which is actuated by the key on/starter button pressed. If the solenoid sticks on, then even pulling the key out will not break the circuit from the battery through the solenoid to the starter and thence to ground. So your starter solenoid is faulty and should be replaced. Looks to be located on the left rear of the bike, that is also the main fuse location. 

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Hi Rhoderage.

From what you're describing.

1. You've developed a Red wire (12v from main fuse A) to Yellow/Red wire short!

Check the Red connector at the Starter Relay.

2. It could also be an issue with Main Fuse A 30amp somehow shorting to the Yellow/Red wire terminal.

3. Or it could be an internal fault/short inside the Starter relay to the coil positive side.

The bottom line is your Yellow/Red wire has permanent 12v attached to it, so the Positive side of the Relay Coil is permanently seeing 12v! (Refer to the drawing Terry attached.)

Having this situation will mean the Starter Relay will energise Any time you're in Neutral, OR in gear with the Sidestand Up, and you pull the Clutch In. Even with Ignition to OFF........A nasty situation!

If the Relay had jammed closed in the energised state, or its main contacts had welded together, then you'd never stop the starter motor from running unless the battery was disconnected or you're starter motor burnt out, or your battery dies, or it goes up in smoke!!!  Fortunately, you don't have that situation.

Closely inspect the relay and its wiring. If the wiring is good then replace the relay as it must have an internal short issue.

Here's some Electrical checks you could do.

1. Bike on Center Stand, lower the Sidestand and put the bike In Gear. (this isolates the Ground side for the Starter Relay coil via the Green/Red wire for safety).

2. Remove the connector from the Starter Relay taking note of which terminal the Yellow/Red wire goes to.

3. See if you can clip your voltmeter Black lead to the battery negative terminal.

4. Ignition Switch OFF. Reconnect your Battery.

5. With your Red meter lead, probe the starter relay terminal where the Yellow/Red wire would go to. Normally, you must NOT see 12v at this terminal. If you do, then the short is internal of the starter relay. Replace the Starter Relay.

6. If step 5 is ok. Check for shorts between the Red wire and the Yellow/Red wire. Ignition Switch to ON, Kill Switch to Run and with your meter on the lowest Ohms range. Place a probe on each of these wires with the connector still disconnected from the relay. Make sure you have No continuity between these two wires. If you do have continuity (low ohms reading) then the wiring is at fault. You should ONLY have continuity when you press the Starter Switch.

Hopefully your Starter Motor has survived the ordeal!

Let's know how you get on.

Good luck. :fing02:

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Thanks so much guys.  I will get at it by this weekend... maybe after work if I get motivated (ie the wife's list is short!)

It was probably 7 or 8 years ago at least that I replaced the starter relay (OEM from local Honda), and the red connector in Grum's pic above which was similarly melted.  For that I ordered the red case online, and clipped out the bad sections of wiring and put it back together.

I appreciate the help immensely and I'm interested to take the wiring out and see how its looking today.

Thanks for the test suggestions Grum, thats what I was really after as I don't want to make the wrong move and mess something up worse!! 😃

Didnt have time to test but took a quick look at the starter relay. It looked like new, for what its worth (nada).

Red connector has some melting.  Looks like some charring inside the terminal and maybe on the red/yellow as well. 

I'll do the electrical tests by the weekend... just wanted to share the quick update that we are on the right track.

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Just out or curiosity, is your ignition switch sticking?  My 02 switch starting doing that because I think the spring got worn out.  Just an easy thing to check and one more thing to eliminate before the deep dive into wiring world.

8 hours ago, vanion2

Just out or curiosity, is your ignition switch sticking?  My 02 switch starting doing that because I think the spring got worn out.  Just an easy thing to check and one more thing to eliminate before the deep dive into wiring world.

Don't see how the Ignition Switch could cause rhoderage's issue.

You'd need a shorted Ignition Switch, plus a shorted Starter Switch and a shorted inoperable Kill Switch.

Ingnition and key switches were part of my issue.  Both were dirty and causing intermittent connection to the solenoid, which cooked it, etc.

Here is my long trail of tears:

2 hours ago, ShipFixer

Ingnition and key switches were part of my issue.  Both were dirty and causing intermittent connection to the solenoid, which cooked it, etc.

Here is my long trail of tears:

Ignition Switch alone cannot cause the OP's issue.

Shipfixer you had some absolutely terrible wiring issues, you had a short issue to the Yellow/red wire, along with welded main contacts.

11 minutes ago, Grum

Ignition Switch alone cannot cause the OP's issue.

Shipfixer you had some absolutely terrible wiring issues, you had a short issue to the Yellow/red wire, along with welded main contacts.

I never actually had a short in the yellow/red wire.  I was wrong about that one early on.  I believe I might have pushed the contacts of the solenoid together in the dark, under the overpass.  

But, yeah...not "the" issue but it seems to be common, I have googled around and seen where other people also had to clean the contacts in the ignition and key switches.  Fortunately not hard to do.

Oh...here's the other reason this is triggering brain cells.  The intermittent contacts in the key and ignition switch made diagnosing all the way through very difficult.  Like that's part of why I thought I had a ground or short in the yellow/red wire, among other things.  The resistance I was seeing on the multimeter just didn't make sense.  When I cleaned those out...boom, solid continuity back to the stripped wires.  

8 hours ago, rhoderage

Didnt have time to test but took a quick look at the starter relay. It looked like new, for what its worth (nada).

Red connector has some melting.  Looks like some charring inside the terminal and maybe on the red/yellow as well. 

I'll do the electrical tests by the weekend... just wanted to share the quick update that we are on the right track.

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That Red connector doesn't look good for the Red wire. What's the back of the plug look like? Is there any exposed wire that could short together?

If that Red wire or its spade connector makes any contact with the wire directly behind it being the Yellow/red then you have located your fault.

Not the prettiest ever (see below) but I dont see the red and red/yellow wires touching.  Not the greatest pic angle.  Im wondering if the connector melted between the spade connectors for those two wires, ie inside the red connector, and we just cant see the point where they shorted.  Ill take it apart, cut the red connector open, and do the electrical tests on the wknd.  Just ordered replacement red connector, itll be a week or two in shipping so bike is down and I have some time to sort it out.

Shipfixer thanks for your post as well, gives more to look at if the initial suggestions dont solve the issue.

I had the harness recall (bike is '02) done years ago at Honda.  Ive replaced the starter relay (oem from local honda) and this connector (ebay) around 8yrs ago.  Bike has a vfrness as well.

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The melted red wire insulation is highly suspicious to your fault.

When that plug is pushed into the starter relay it will tend to push the spades further rearward slightly, potentially making it more prone for the two wires to touch.

Look very closely at the rear of the Yellow/Red for any potential of it touching the exposed Red wire.

Totally hear what you are saying

Question though - could this be a red herring?  Since the starter was engaged for a longer period of time than normal (ie not normal cranking, but stuck engaged), could the longer flow of high current compared to normal have melted the connector and wiring end?  Ie this is the result, not the cause?

Just spitballing since I can't actually do anything else with it at the moment 😃  I sure hope it is as simple as those two wires having made contact; that's a very easy fix.

45 minutes ago, rhoderage

Totally hear what you are saying

Question though - could this be a red herring?  Since the starter was engaged for a longer period of time than normal (ie not normal cranking, but stuck engaged), could the longer flow of high current compared to normal have melted the connector and wiring end?  Ie this is the result, not the cause?

Just spitballing since I can't actually do anything else with it at the moment 😃  I sure hope it is as simple as those two wires having made contact; that's a very easy fix.

No not likely - The current required to energize the Starter Relay coil is relatively low as its protected by only a 10amp Fuse. The Red wire carries all the current for your bikes normal ops Except for the EFI stuff handled by Fuse B. The connection for the Red wire is a common weak spot over time. Maybe when you repair the connector you could use the empty space of the connector and add an additional Red wire as there are TWO connections available. You'll notice the unused terminal on the Starter Relay is joined to where the Red wire goes - they are the same point. Utilizing the spare terminal will help with sharing the current and minimize the chances of overheated connections at the relay. See the attached Starter Wiring of before and after mod.

You will have to solder and sleeve the join you make to the main red wire.

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Thanks for this... will definitely try the splitting of red wire into 2 spades into the starter relay.  All for it if it shares the load and reduces the chance of recurrence, since its now the 2nd time since I've owned the bike that I'm replacing the red connector!  Would like to put this one to bed permanently if possible.

You still need to carry out those checks mentioned earlier, just to make sure you don't have any strange shorts at the relay itself.

Also run the checks for the wires mentioned at Step 6 to confirm you do or don't have a short with them. If the short is still within the wires you may need to check for shorts around the starter switch wiring. However the melted insulation doesn't look good at this stage, and its a possible cause of your problems.

Start opening up the tape on the wiring behind the red connector... looky here... it melted through the wire insulation

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Better view ... can see the red melted into the electrical tape

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Now we are concerned about the red and red/yellow shorting... it wasnt happening in the red connector or spade terminals or crimps... but the red and red/yellow wire kinda look melted together...

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Better pry them apart to see...

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And look at this... they had melted and fused together inside the electrical tape wrap under the rubber boot. 

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Will be an easy fix.  Replacement connector arrives wednesday.  I will still run all the checks as well to be sure, this is just my start today...

Thanks so much for the help fellas.  I literally told the wife i would post on here and within an hour probably have a detailed answer of the problem and solution... and as usual, you didnt disappoint!

Rest of the wiring down to the taped junction is fine

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Great photos good find. Glad you've found the definte short we suspected. Interesting the fact your Red wire is overheating, do you have any additional accessories that could be causing this?

PC5/Autotune

Fiamm horn

Voltmeter

USB charger

speedoDRD

battery tender lead

I don't think any of that stuff would be a problem, some is hooked up through a fuse block

I don't understand either why the red wire would only be a problem at that spot... the rest of the wire looks just fine.  perhaps that part of the wire was damaged somehow, or at least the insulation?  maybe it got a bit of water in it or something; the bike was outside in freezing weather for a day back in january when we moved

no idea!

Since mine is long gone, but the replacement looks like that…is that the original Honda red connector?  Did you say you already replaced the R/R, or not?

My bike no longer smells like hot wires on the road or after a ride since switching mine to a MOSFET 😁

Yes i had also switched the rr to a mosfet about 8 years ago.  I really went through everything except the stator itself.  Mosfet rr.  Redid the stator yellow wire connection.  Vfrness.  New honda oem starter relay.  new red connector as it was melted. I had the wiring harness recall.done around then too .  Its been flawless since and runs at 14.3v steady...this was a real surprise

That's... interesting and disturbing at the same time!  I don't really want to re-enter electrical troubleshooting purgatory myself.

rhoderage, 6/27/2021 at 1:06 AM

I don't understand either why the red wire would only be a problem at that spot... the rest of the wire looks just fine

Seeing your 30amp Main Fuse has not blown and doesn't look heat stressed the problem must be with a poor connection for the brass spade connector.

The heat generated here will dissipate up the Red wire causing melted insulation and shorting to the Yellow/Red wire.

- Hope your new plug has tinned or silver plated spade connectors rather than brass. See photo.

- Make sure your wire crimp connections are good.

- If you can utilize that spare connection as suggested, should help a lot.

- Using your meter make sure you have repaired the short.

- Treat the terminals with Ox-Gard.

- Before starting your bike, suggest removing the main Starter Relay lead that goes from the Relay to the Starter Motor, keep it away from the relay, now connect your battery and with ignition to on, operate the starter switch numerous times making sure you hear the Relay click in and out as you press and release the starter switch.

If thats good then you should be ok to reconnect and try starting your engine.

Just hope the ordeal hasn't damaged the Starter Motor or Starter Relay! 

Good luck.

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New part arrived.  Funny enough it was cheaper to buy it WITH the starter relay, versus without.  You read that correctly!  The relay will just go in the spares bin as long as my Honda part checks out ok.

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The connector is using brass terminals.  I am going to split the red wire into two as suggested and use the spare terminal on the starter relay.

Question - should i remove the wires and attach to my non brass terminals?  Think its worth it, or even necessary if I split the current across 2?  I dont want to take the lazy way but if its not useful then its one less thing.

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Seeing you're going to use Both reds and splice them into the one main red wire, think the brass existing ones will probably be ok!  I'd go to the trouble of popping out the red wire ones and look closely at how they are crimped making sure they are properly done.

Make sure the spades have a good bite on the relay terminals. Again, give these connections a good coating of Ox-Gard. 

The connections for the relay coil are much lower current and only intermittently used anyway, so they will be fine. A simple inline connector or sleeved solder joint for the coil wires is fine.

Good luck  hope it all goes well. Do the checks and relay test mentioned prior to fully connecting up.

Fixed 😄

Didn't take any further pictures.  Did my best at the lineman splice.  Im not experienced at soldering but it all was secure.  Heat shrink and tape.  Taped all 3 wire runs securely together and double checked all wiring routing for battery area.  I also verified how the Corbin seat was fitting to check for pressure on the relay, ie if th.at mashed those two wires together 

Checked the relay operation first as grum suggested, perfect.  everything checked out fine.  Starting perfectly on first try each time.  All switches ie start kills are working properly again. 

Everything is back together and all systems go.

Thanks so much to Grum and Shipfixer and everyone else who assisted! 

2 hours ago, rhoderage

Didn't take any further pictures.  Did my best at the lineman splice.  Im not experienced at soldering but it all was secure.  Heat shrink and tape.  Taped all 3 wire runs securely together and double checked all wiring routing for battery area.  I also verified how the Corbin seat was fitting to check for pressure on the relay, ie if th.at mashed those two wires together 

Checked the relay operation first as grum suggested, perfect.  everything checked out fine.  Starting perfectly on first try each time.  All switches ie start kills are working properly again. 

Everything is back together and all systems go.

Thanks so much to Grum and Shipfixer and everyone else who assisted! 

Good to hear, glad the Starter survived. Did you use some Ox-gard on the terminals?

Hopefully you'll never see that problem again. :fing02:

Di electric grease yes