Engine GRANADED left stranded in the middle of nowhere -=SOLVED!=-

I know I've already post in one of the groups on fb but wanted to share my story here as well.
Bought "fatty" 6 months ago, UK imported , true, unknown history, but the bike sounded and runned excelent 40 something km 
Spend another hefty sum doing complete service,tyres,pads,plugs etc. I've rode it for some 4000km with no indication whatsoever. Excellent bike, powerfull,  super stable at high speeds. Can make turns one handed with 180kph. First vacation time I've packed it and went for a holiday. True! I've rode it hard, here you can go easy 200+km/h on the highway, and yes I kinda pushed it to the limit 250+ for some 150km. When slowed down I heard what can only be described as rod knock. I was conviced its something else ( I've messed arround the rear manifold the day before having small exhaust leak) But the knock was there and then the engine seized for good! In the middle of the night , in the middle of nowhere with giant mosquitoes eating me alive!
Anyway engine is locked, yet to be disassembled, stripped the bike will drop the engine tomorrow. But being locked hard I dont think its rebuildable or at least not cheap. Cannot sourse used engine localy and whats the point of doing that? All the folks of the fb group swear is the most relible thing ever but now going through the web I find many other examples of the same happening. 
Video is the last time it ran knocking...
Any suggestion are welcome. Excuse my spelling, English is not my first language and I'm pissed of to be bothered to spell check it. And thank you for your time.

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Sorry for your troubles.   :sad:   Someone had that happen to a 7th gen IIRC in Africa? some years ago, maybe 7 to 8 - anyway, he got another motor and swapped it. IIRC the bearings in that motor were ruined.   Motors are around, but you have a DCT, that might be more difficult to source.   For your location, the expensive part of that would be shipping if it were coming from the US particularly, or even from the UK or other parts of Europe.   At this point you're on the right track - you might before pulling the motor out, drain the oil and have a sample analyzed - and then run a magnet through the oil to see if it picks anything up.  Also, cut the oil filter open and see what's inside.   If there are magnetic particles in it, she's had it.  Probably a given if the engine is seized.  You could pull the pan and then remove a rod cap to inspect a bearing if you want to see that prior to dropping the motor out.  Hopefully you can source another motor and get her back on the road - it's a nice looking bike in that color. 

Best of luck with it. 

One of my coworkers bought the first 2010 released in Canada, pre ordered and paid for.  Waited a year for it.  Was so excited - at less than 10k km, engine grenaded.  I don't remember exactly but bearings were involved.  Honda refused to cover it, he literally parted the bike and lost the better part of $20k Canadian.

Its the main reason I haven't tried to buy one - way way more examples that have no issues than do have the engine issue, but your experience is super unfortunate  and one I'd rather avoid.

I believe the problem was more common across the pond... may have been a Honda recall?  Swarf left in the engine at manufacturing

Not sure if there’s much difference between the VFR and the Crosstourer but here’s a complete motor and automatic gearbox 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274857159943?fits=UKM_CCM%3A1200|UKM_Make%3AHonda|UKM_Model%3AVFR&hash=item3ffec36d07:g:TWAAAOSwmwtg4yOn

What a fucking mess
Was one of my worst fears picking up this bike, the stories of the engine just dying of death with little warning. 
 Mind if i ask what generation your bike was? I am yet to hear of a 2011+ gen having this issue. 

14 hours ago, Cogswell

Sorry for your troubles.   :sad:   Someone had that happen to a 7th gen IIRC in Africa? some years ago, maybe 7 to 8 - anyway, he got another motor and swapped it. IIRC the bearings in that motor were ruined.   Motors are around, but you have a DCT, that might be more difficult to source.   For your location, the expensive part of that would be shipping if it were coming from the US particularly, or even from the UK or other parts of Europe.   At this point you're on the right track - you might before pulling the motor out, drain the oil and have a sample analyzed - and then run a magnet through the oil to see if it picks anything up.  Also, cut the oil filter open and see what's inside.   If there are magnetic particles in it, she's had it.  Probably a given if the engine is seized.  You could pull the pan and then remove a rod cap to inspect a bearing if you want to see that prior to dropping the motor out.  Hopefully you can source another motor and get her back on the road - it's a nice looking bike in that color. 

Best of luck with it. 

I've drain the oil splashing on a top of a magnet and discover nothing. Cut the oil filter carefully still nothing then I discover why there was nothing after I pull the pan off. The chunks of shiny/gold color metal were so large the oil funnel filter them and they stay in the pan, draining the oil wouldn move them out as they big and heavy!!Just imagine.... The mesh filter is microscopic to let any metal particulates through to end up in the filter.
Unfortunately the main/rod caps are high up in the engine and cannot even see them. Further disassembly required. Spend the afternoon fighting single engine mount bolt seized hard (UK kinda rusty bike) Got it out and gave up for now.

Oil samples are not available arround and kinda pointless at this stage , but thank you for your companionship. Really appreciat fine suggestions!

 

12 hours ago, rhoderage

One of my coworkers bought the first 2010 released in Canada, pre ordered and paid for.  Waited a year for it.  Was so excited - at less than 10k km, engine grenaded.  I don't remember exactly but bearings were involved.  Honda refused to cover it, he literally parted the bike and lost the better part of $20k Canadian.

Its the main reason I haven't tried to buy one - way way more examples that have no issues than do have the engine issue, but your experience is super unfortunate  and one I'd rather avoid.

I believe the problem was more common across the pond... may have been a Honda recall?  Swarf left in the engine at manufacturing

That was horrible10k and engine failure! I thought swarf problem was only on the european models (doesnt make sense since all are made in one line in Japan) But yeah , I've got the impression that when new even for the ''west" people that was an expensive bike, and this to happen , and Honda not to take responsibility is bad bad bad. Honda admited for the swarf left from manufacturing but only for 397 bike in the UK and recall them all. Or at least that what old artical I found says. But Honda UK is another story, they use to fix granaded out of warranty spayed with 50shot of nitro engines just to make customers happy (another story I've read). Anyway...
Will fight for now but I see only used engine as an option, and then what? Swarf blocked oil passage will may still be there.. I'll be so affraid to push it and whats the point of having 1200 if you ride it with 250  speeds.. I dont know...

1 hour ago, Thumbs

Not sure if there’s much difference between the VFR and the Crosstourer but here’s a complete motor and automatic gearbox 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274857159943?fits=UKM_CCM%3A1200|UKM_Make%3AHonda|UKM_Model%3AVFR&hash=item3ffec36d07:g:TWAAAOSwmwtg4yOn

Cant see many difference just looking at it, but sure there is and 2k is a bit steep for me

1 hour ago, Sunde

What a fucking mess
Was one of my worst fears picking up this bike, the stories of the engine just dying of death with little warning. 
 Mind if i ask what generation your bike was? I am yet to hear of a 2011+ gen having this issue. 

Yes, yes it is...
I granaded an old Honda Civic 1.3 the same way only it ran for thousands of km with the oil pressure warning light slightly flashing before it locked up(kinda didnt care about that car,and afterwards got a good used engine for 40euro and swap it for 3 hours). Here I only saw oil light 5 seconds before it blew. And I was parked, what will be if it lock with 200kph?
Mine is '11 UK bike
Comming in the right moment after I've spend all my savings on this bike and a new car (present for my old man)
Thank god I have a good friend who drove for hours with his van to pick me up 3 o'clock in the morning...

Damn

A 2011 bike with this shit now

Not pleased haha

The clogging of the oil pump pickup is probably why it finally seized - just totally starved for oil.  Wow . . . I'd be very unhappy, as well.  At this point there's probably no more reason to investigate that engine.  The one in the UK might work - don't know - but 999 pounds on top of the price, so call it 3,000 pounds shipped.   - that's pretty rich.  Too bad more isn't known about the DCT vs manual shift cases - I can't imagine anything is interchangeable.   And getting one from a Crosstourer would be a big gamble - no telling what differences there might be, maybe none, or something electrical or software related that would prevent the swap or make it difficult - who knows.  I'm not sure that's been done anywhere before.   It's a lot of money to risk on that.  Too bad Honda is of no help, particularly when it's a known issue.  I suppose it can't hurt to ask - maybe a Honda rep knows of a used engine somewhere. 

The worst case would be the engine casing getting broken and that hasn’t happened, your gearbox is OK, so it’s realistically a reconditioned crank, bearings,  flush out oil galleries etc possibly a new conrod 

A lot of work but you seem to have a decent workshop and presumably the knowledge 

If it was me I’d jump on this and build one decent engine https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174828079637?hash=item28b490ca15:g:X80AAOSwyzJg4ynq

Sorry to hear of your issues.

There is obviously some fault with those engines if after some hard use they grenade their bearings. I guess not many get a good thrashing so just keep going. 
 

Hope you find a replacement or a.another solution. 

Cogswell, 7/10/2021 at 6:37 AM

The clogging of the oil pump pickup is probably why it finally seized - just totally starved for oil.  Wow . . . I'd be very unhappy, as well.  At this point there's probably no more reason to investigate that engine.  The one in the UK might work - don't know - but 999 pounds on top of the price, so call it 3,000 pounds shipped.   - that's pretty rich.  Too bad more isn't known about the DCT vs manual shift cases - I can't imagine anything is interchangeable.   And getting one from a Crosstourer would be a big gamble - no telling what differences there might be, maybe none, or something electrical or software related that would prevent the swap or make it difficult - who knows.  I'm not sure that's been done anywhere before.   It's a lot of money to risk on that.  Too bad Honda is of no help, particularly when it's a known issue.  I suppose it can't hurt to ask - maybe a Honda rep knows of a used engine somewhere. 

I expect if oil pump starve for oil to get oil warning light ON. I just saw it blink once or twice and that was it.
I will lurk for engine locally, after seing this in the pan before any money involved I need to drop the oil pan of the donor and see whats in it.
Luckilly there is one 2 hours away, but at this moment I'm affraid they will shock me with their price I'll get pissed off , will pile everything and set it on fire! And first want to see whats damage inside mine, maybe I'm lucky will see (if calling engine failure luck)
Local Honda dealer is a joke. They have to install me brand new engine for free while giving me a sub ride to turn over my opinion. No point even ringing them.

Thumbs, 7/10/2021 at 4:11 PM

The worst case would be the engine casing getting broken and that hasn’t happened, your gearbox is OK, so it’s realistically a reconditioned crank, bearings,  flush out oil galleries etc possibly a new conrod 

A lot of work but you seem to have a decent workshop and presumably the knowledge 

If it was me I’d jump on this and build one decent engine https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174828079637?hash=item28b490ca15:g:X80AAOSwyzJg4ynq

Yet to get to the crank to see what failed. Really hope its just a rod bearing and only cosmetic marks on crang+rod. 
Want to save my block as engine number is required here , changing it cause add problems.
Funny... I've rode Suzuki for 3 years with nothing in mind for bike lift. 6 months ago buying Honda something in the back of my mind told me to look and get a used bike lift to service it easily.. only if I knew. I work in a cubical, doing mechanic stuff is only a hobby but enough tools for this kinda task.

If I can turn dead Civic from this to that incl engine rebuild I will be fine, just didn't need that when I'm broke and in the begining of the summer.
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45 minutes ago, Mohawk

Sorry to hear of your issues.

There is obviously some fault with those engines if after some hard use they grenade their bearings. I guess not many get a good thrashing so just keep going. 
 

Hope you find a replacement or a.another solution. 

Only if I knew about soo many examples before I've made the purchase.
In one of the fb group it opened a discussion about using the right oil for my needs. I know I know, talking oil is like talking tyres. Everyone have an opinion. I ran Honda geniune 10-30 oil that says in the book, and Honda dealer sold me that. Now reading that maybe if I've put some 50s or 60s oil would be different. I don't believe Honda will not calculate pushing it to red rpms for hours and give you 10-30oil. Or maybe they are just crap engines badly made.

Finaly engine gave up and dropped. Spend last 2 days for 2 bolts and getto engine stand...

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I just checked calendar, yup still 2021. Thought is an old thread or something. 

With all the respect due to my English friends here, but buying 10 years old bike from England? Blokes, ride hard, year round, half of it in brine and do not care much for maintenance. 

Being so far down the road of dis-assembly, no harm in checking the bottom end and see what's what.  In a seized engine the block/pistons must also be junk.  If the gearbox survived intact without undue damage, then the replacement block / rotating / reciprocating assembly might be all that's needed.  Cams could also be suspect however those could probably be sourced relatively easily (IIRC there are two with the unicam system).  I wasn't too crazy about the engine that was already torn down - the pistons were out - if they did not note which cylinder each came from it would be impossible to match parts with their original location.  Keep us updated on how this progresses.  Hats off to you for digging in this far to get to the bottom of it.  :fing02:   Hang in there . . .

Magneto, 7/12/2021 at 5:06 AM

I just checked calendar, yup still 2021. Thought is an old thread or something. 

With all the respect due to my English friends here, but buying 10 years old bike from England? Blokes, ride hard, year round, half of it in brine and do not care much for maintenance. 

When talking Honda I expect to be 2031 or even 2041 and engine running like new! I have and seen many examples why you can run them troublefree. I didnt expect engine with oil to die , I kinda expect them to run with no oil for ages, they just set the bar high. Now it feel like its a M5 V10 where it eats its bearing for no reason.
For the 2nd part, where the blokes from Uk or US or Belgium Switzerland etc ride their bike hard??  No really, where?? for 15min on a track day? Cuz except the autobahn I dont see where guys ride or drive hard. Been in west europe - u go to jail if go 3km over the limit get shot on the spot for 5+
 

Cogswell, 7/12/2021 at 5:17 AM

Being so far down the road of dis-assembly, no harm in checking the bottom end and see what's what.  In a seized engine the block/pistons must also be junk.  If the gearbox survived intact without undue damage, then the replacement block / rotating / reciprocating assembly might be all that's needed.  Cams could also be suspect however those could probably be sourced relatively easily (IIRC there are two with the unicam system).  I wasn't too crazy about the engine that was already torn down - the pistons were out - if they did not note which cylinder each came from it would be impossible to match parts with their original location.  Keep us updated on how this progresses.  Hats off to you for digging in this far to get to the bottom of it.  :fing02:   Hang in there . . .

Crank is out. Seeing it only need 1 pair of rod bearings for cyl 4 and some resurface job on the crank spirits are high! Afer all this are the best news I could get.
Nothing is broken/blown. Seizing caused by blown rod bearings climing on each other. There are some 'fingernail feel' on the rod and crank that need to be touch-up by a machine shop, and a pair of new bearings for the new size. Good cleaning , some gaskets and oil and she will be fine. It seems that I overreacted with granaded thing. I dont want to do the hole bottom end , the rest looks spot on conditione wise. Cylinder walls in excelent condition , no marks anywhere else. Even the heads/valves look like zero oil burning was happened.
I'll leave crankshaft with the rod at a machine shop specialist and will deal with blowing all the oil passages to be ready for assembly.

 

How/why would that happen?

Well, this all corroborates your original theory that it was rod knock - and that you hoped the block was ok and could be rebuilt - it can!!  Your intuition was spot on.  It's amazing that everything survived in such good condition.  It's great that you have a machine shop nearby that is able / willing to do the work.  You may be out a little money and your time - but looks like you get it back on the road.   Please keep us updated as it gets back together and running!  :fing02:

Cheers

5 hours ago, VFR78

How/why would that happen?

Seeing the condition of the rest of the bearing (3 main and the rest of th 3 cyl 10/10condition) I can only explain to myself that it has oil starvation on the cyl.4
Maybe that was the 'swarf issue' on the early '10 '11 models
And looking on the lybrication diagram , the only possible place that can cause oil starvation is here. Cannot explain how oil journals in the crank can clogged up right there. Still to investigate
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3 hours ago, Cogswell

Well, this all corroborates your original theory that it was rod knock - and that you hoped the block was ok and could be rebuilt - it can!!  Your intuition was spot on.  It's amazing that everything survived in such good condition.  It's great that you have a machine shop nearby that is able / willing to do the work.  You may be out a little money and your time - but looks like you get it back on the road.   Please keep us updated as it gets back together and running!  :fing02:

Cheers

Yes! All the rest looks like its a brand new. I could now say this is a 200k+km engine no doubt except for that cyl4 rod bearing not having enough oil... There are planty of engine machine shops arround, lets hope I find one willing to deal with my case. Thank you for the support again. Really need that atm.

Thanks for the explanation. It’s unfortunate you copped this, but at least you have the expertise to attempt to manage it. I think I’d probably go and hide in a corner, if it happened to my bike. I seem to remember that Honda car motors, 20 or 30 years ago, needed high detergent Honda specific oils,to keep all the oil galleries clear, because they were very narrow. Thanks again for keeping us posted.

Perhaps the bearing was defective from manufacture, and the little cleat that is supposed to keep it from spinning was not formed 100% correctly. Over time it "walked" and caused excessive heat, eventually rotating and climbing on the other half. Or could have been the swarf/chip issue noted in some UK bikes. 

Was the bike filled with 10-30, or 10-40? My wife has the ecodiesel version of the 1500 Ram that had a massive recall in 2014-17. Hers is an '18 and the manual specifies 5-40 oil, whereas the earlier versions all specified 5-30. The failures rates have since dropped significantly, and Dodge issued a TSB for the oil weight. My VFR has a decal on the side specifying 10-30 oil, but the manual shows a range of oils for different temps. After the first oil change I switched to 10-40 and noticed a much quieter engine, less notchy shifting, and less clutch basket feel through the clutch lever. 

Not trying to start an oil thread, but as big as the engine is, with a large transmission, I feel much more protected with the 40 weight.

Good luck with getting it fixed, and if you need pics of the shop manual just PM me - the online version has black blobby images with no clarity.

Looks like there are 5 bearing sizes to choose from, and a new rod is about $180 from partzilla...

The oil I've put is Honda 10-30 . After all of this If I manage to put the bike together I will have a good thinking what oil to choose next. Maybe go again with 30 , or try 40 or even go some 'racing' 50s or 60s. dunno.
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I've visited a machine shop. And there are good and bad news. Good news are that its doable , crank can be cut and it will be fine. The rod is fine. The rest of the crank is excelent just need a polish .They will do the job quick and cheap. . The bad news is that for them to be sure they will get all of the crank marks out the size need to be dropped from 41.500 to 41.000 and they cannot assist with bearings. If I manage to find bearings that size they will do it and I'll be fine. Seing now the variants of bearing for that engine, the one that I need do not exist. They are roughly within 41.480 - 41.500 specs. Before even look at it the machine guy told me that the bearing for this go with .005 step and its bad news for me.
So options are to visit every bearing shop arround and find one that fit /unlikely/ , check online for one /impossible/ , get a new crank+bearing /expensive/ or get a used engine...

My crankshaft is stampted with C 2 . No index on the conrods(?) and my bearing color on all is RED(?). Dont know whats happen there
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I will plastigauge the good bearings to see what my tolerance are atm and if they are within the specs.
So its probably what you say: defective bearing that finaly gave up


p.s. YES PLEASE! I do have only the 'dark' version of the service manual only. I'll hit you with a PM if you can assist with better version.

Machine guy has no explanation why the bearing fail. Oil starvation was out of the question. No existing swarf could cause that - oil journals there are massive and clean of any rubbish . He mention that due to extreme streess cap bolts might got lossen , but we rejected that after I've told him that I found no difference then the other when un do all of the bolts.

For the cause of failure, there's an elephant in the room here...  Your opening statements suggest you're hard on your machine.  I think you should question the wisdom of going 250+ for 150km... anything stressed to the limits for sustained periods is just asking for something to give up.

As for your oil choice, I wouldn't go high viscosity, you want max flow.... stick to 10W30 or 10W40 IMHO.

7 hours ago, ggtod

The oil I've put is Honda 10-30 . After all of this If I manage to put the bike together I will have a good thinking what oil to choose next. Maybe go again with 30 , or try 40 or even go some 'racing' 50s or 60s. dunno.
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I've visited a machine shop. And there are good and bad news. Good news are that its doable , crank can be cut and it will be fine. The rod is fine. The rest of the crank is excelent just need a polish .They will do the job quick and cheap. . The bad news is that for them to be sure they will get all of the crank marks out the size need to be dropped from 41.500 to 41.000 and they cannot assist with bearings. If I manage to find bearings that size they will do it and I'll be fine. Seing now the variants of bearing for that engine, the one that I need do not exist. They are roughly within 41.480 - 41.500 specs. Before even look at it the machine guy told me that the bearing for this go with .005 step and its bad news for me.
So options are to visit every bearing shop arround and find one that fit /unlikely/ , check online for one /impossible/ , get a new crank+bearing /expensive/ or get a used engine...

My crankshaft is stampted with C 2 . No index on the conrods(?) and my bearing color on all is RED(?). Dont know whats happen there
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I will plastigauge the good bearings to see what my tolerance are atm and if they are within the specs.
So its probably what you say: defective bearing that finaly gave up


p.s. YES PLEASE! I do have only the 'dark' version of the service manual only. I'll hit you with a PM if you can assist with better version.

Machine guy has no explanation why the bearing fail. Oil starvation was out of the question. No existing swarf could cause that - oil journals there are massive and clean of any rubbish . He mention that due to extreme streess cap bolts might got lossen , but we rejected that after I've told him that I found no difference then the other when un do all of the bolts.

Maybe check this out - it looks to be right in your back yard . . . you could probably arrange to look at it in person. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284210910085?hash=item422c4a5385:g:rCIAAOSwkelewPFY

But again - parts from a Crosstourer . . . similarities?  Plenty.  Differences?  Who knows.  Probably the only way to be sure would be to take your crank along and place it side by side with the other one - count splines on the crank ends, measure everything and use a micrometer on the journals.  If this is a match, you could pick it up and avoid having your existing crank machined - probably just have the machinist polish the journals and re-fit standard bearings.  Maybe worth checking out. 

2 hours ago, raYzerman

For the cause of failure, there's an elephant in the room here...  Your opening statements suggest you're hard on your machine.  I think you should question the wisdom of going 250+ for 150km... anything stressed to the limits for sustained periods is just asking for something to give up.

As for your oil choice, I wouldn't go high viscosity, you want max flow.... stick to 10W30 or 10W40 IMHO.

Yep. I admit it could be all my fault pushing 10yo bike with 50k km to the limit in 30+degrees. I can add to this that the bike seems kinda neglected. Or at least the state of the air filter says that. BUT! I expect nothing else from a Honda engine.Well not anymore tho.
 I drove 25yo civic flatout for 5 hours just time for an oil change and manage to drain 40ml, yes cup of coffee .It ran years after that. Or Ed March from utube who rode his supercup for 1500km+ with no oil pump. Or the carwow video where they run 9min on the limiter civic with no oil. etc etc. All Honda guys arround me were thats impossible. And I dont ride hard 95% of the time.
I'll leave headscraching the oil choice for later. But you are right. Will be 10-30 or 40
Was hard on my previous bike for 3-4 year, it only eat some oil and never complain.  I know that 650 V2 Suzuki engine is famous for its reliability was expecting the same for any honda engine.
 

2 hours ago, Cogswell

Maybe check this out - it looks to be right in your back yard . . . you could probably arrange to look at it in person. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284210910085?hash=item422c4a5385:g:rCIAAOSwkelewPFY

But again - parts from a Crosstourer . . . similarities?  Plenty.  Differences?  Who knows.  Probably the only way to be sure would be to take your crank along and place it side by side with the other one - count splines on the crank ends, measure everything and use a micrometer on the journals.  If this is a match, you could pick it up and avoid having your existing crank machined - probably just have the machinist polish the journals and re-fit standard bearings.  Maybe worth checking out. 

Yep, I know that Mario guy. I used to visit his used motorcycle showroom and his junkyard looking for a DCT module for my CTX700. He is a good guy willing to help, but his target is 'west' chaps and prices are eyewatering for my brokeass. Already called him if I can compare both cranks. In fact that machine shop is next door to him , I'm sure I could take it for a check with profesionals before purchase it. Its good option as well. This bike will either run again Or I will set it on fire 😄

If that crank is that close to you,  in my humble opinion the universe is sending you a message  . . . just sayin'.   :smile:

So you say the crank lube oil way for #4 rod may have been the issue. Its a straight through drilling, was it blocked when removed the rod ? 
 

Where were the shells relative to each other when you separated the rod ? 
 

Re the journal being under size once ground to smooth. Why not just have it welded up then ground to a standard size ? 

Yes, welding up journals and grinding to OEM spec is common practice here on hot-rods as well.

I had #2 rod-journal repaired on my Porsche and shop said it was hardest crank they've ever seen. Can't imagine Honda crank being any more difficult.

I just checked, the 2017 VFR1200X, and 2010 VFR1200F have the exact same part number for the crankshaft ( 13300-MGE-020 ). Might be your best option, along with a new rod and bearings.

Can they weld, and re-grind your crankshaft back to the original size? I know it needs to be done by someone who knows what they are doing, but plenty of people have done it on car engines. Although bike engines spin much faster, but your only looking for a few thousandths thicker....

13 hours ago, Mohawk

So you say the crank lube oil way for #4 rod may have been the issue. Its a straight through drilling, was it blocked when removed the rod ? 
 

Where were the shells relative to each other when you separated the rod ? 
 

Re the journal being under size once ground to smooth. Why not just have it welded up then ground to a standard size ? 

Oil starvation on pot#4 is out of the question. Oil jounal that feed the bearing is in the middle of pot#1 and one main bearing that are in excellent condition. No crap that might block oil flow was found. 

10 hours ago, DannoXYZ

Yes, welding up journals and grinding to OEM spec is common practice here on hot-rods as well.

I had #2 rod-journal repaired on my Porsche and shop said it was hardest crank they've ever seen. Can't imagine Honda crank being any more difficult.

Yepp. Thats the current plan. Machine shop send me to check for bearings that fit with 41.000
No such bearing exist, close it can get is 41.224
Machine guy says he didnt want to weld up the crank until we are sure there is no matching bearing somewhere.

#1# Now I'll give the crank for weld up and then it will be cut back to standard 41.500 for a set of standard bearings.

Or

#2# get that used crank from ebay + set of standard bearings

Or

#3# if the price is right I'll buy that used engine that I've mentioned eirlier

Maybe I'll go #3# first and have running bike within a week and then take my time to do #1# nice and easy winter project to have solid (if welded crank can be called solid) engine just sitting arround

ggtod, 7/14/2021 at 1:05 PM

When talking Honda I expect to be 2031 or even 2041 and engine running like new! I have and seen many examples why you can run them troublefree. I didnt expect engine with oil to die , I kinda expect them to run with no oil for ages, they just set the bar high. Now it feel like its a M5 V10 where it eats its bearing for no reason.
For the 2nd part, where the blokes from Uk or US or Belgium Switzerland etc ride their bike hard??  No really, where?? for 15min on a track day? Cuz except the autobahn I dont see where guys ride or drive hard. Been in west europe - u go to jail if go 3km over the limit get shot on the spot for 5+....

You are making lots of assumptions but at least you can wrench 🙂

People oil starve their bikes all the time, failure is often not immediate but delayed. Then bikes run on their sides, knocked over, lay down etc. Mechanics or POs start bikes without oil another common buggers.  Stuff just happens. 

Btw, Do not underestimate the English riders. They street race like mad... but also lots of tattered bikes there, not well cared for. Not sure why.

7 hours ago, Magneto

 🙂

Btw, Do not underestimate the English riders. They street race like mad... but also lots of tattered bikes there, not well cared for. Not sure why.

Where are you getting this information ? 

This is the second post in this thread where you assume that English bikers do little or no maintenance and street race all the time. 

Sure,  our winters are not great for riding  and the roads get salted which corrodes stuff.

It's a bit like me saying that all American bikers fit lengthened swinging arms, lights under their bikes and ride around in insufficient riding gear.

It's a sweeping generalisation which incorrect.

8 hours ago, DaveC

Where are you getting this information ? 

This is the second post in this thread where you assume that English bikers do little or no maintenance and street race all the time. 

Sure,  our winters are not great for riding  and the roads get salted which corrodes stuff.

It's a bit like me saying that all American bikers fit lengthened swinging arms, lights under their bikes and ride around in insufficient riding gear.

It's a sweeping generalisation which incorrect.

Don't try to get me on technicalities good Sir, I didn’t see you brushing when OP claimed that English don’t ride over 4000 rpm at all because of enforcement.

There is a large subculture in UK that goes nuts, with jurisdictions trying to respond with dark riders trying to catch them. There was even proposal to equip all the bikes with gps to track all the riders all the time... 😂  I linked little video for your enjoyment, many more available where it come from...

I am not picking on Brits in this department, just pointing out people from outside do not really have full picture about lawlessness in western countries. In my home jurisdiction out of 2.7 million inhabitants 630 thousands have suspended licenses with majority still driving anyway. Mind 2.7 million are all the people including toddlers. 😂  I linked source article for your enjoyment also...

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article251679163.html

15 hours ago, Magneto

... but also lots of tattered bikes there, not well cared for. Not sure why.

Much obliged for the question, here is my favorite Englishman Matt working on this scary   bike 😉   Fished from a canal? Not sure....

So I've got that used crank from the ebay link above. Its from crosstourer '15 but as per serial numbers they appear the same as '11 FD
Plus I've got a deal on the complete set of conrods and their bearings, so placing them back eliminate troubleshooting what journal need what bearing so I'm half way done no questions there. I didnt get the new engine casing and its bearings , bottom half was missing and I could only see main bearing stamps and bearing colors.

But now there is question with the main bearings, their size and colours its a mistery for me. I've tried to read some forums about translating engine case stamp+crank stamp + colors and I understood nothing 😬 How do you read the table from the service manual??

Can someone help translate/explain what is going on now?

Check out what I have:
[image: IMG_1622.JPG]

table is from the SM , I dont know if the 2C stamp matter or do I only look on block stamp BAB (old) and AAB(new)

I think on the middle main I can use my old bearing inserts- matching letter+color
on the left I have same color but different letter
On the right different color but matching letter

Still to plastigauge all to be sure I'm in  the oil clearance specs : 0,017- 0,035 mm
but that simple table is driving me crazy I have all the details still cant figure it out

[image: Untitled11.png]

Are you saying the coding from the Crosstourer manual differs from the VFRs manual? If so, can you order bearings from the C.T. parts fiche?  Did I get that wrong?   Aside from the color codes,  is it possible to simply go by journal diameter measurement and then choose the corresponding bearing measurement?  In the end what matters is the clearance with the crank journal regardless of coding differences between models. 

Just thinking out loud here -  I wonder if during assembly the journals were measured at one stage of assembly, then the block going to that crank was stamped with the needed shells to match that crank so the worker at the next station knew what to select.    If you measure the main bearing journals on the two cranks, how much do the measurements differ?  

Use the LETTER codes from the block you are using, and the NUMBER codes from the crank you are using.

The reference for the block code is the top horizontal row of the chart. The reading from each journal, etched into the crank will tell you which row to select on the left side vertical axis. Then the bearing you would use is where those two axis' meet. You may have a different color for each journal, as a big bore and small crank will need a thicker bearing, and vice-versa.

The foot note says the crankcase codes are left to right.

I would measure both bores, and crank just to verify. 

[image: 20210728_212241.jpg]

[image: 20210728_212323.jpg]

Looks like the same process for the rods...

Thank you for all the replies.

But I’m back to square one. Bad news : the new/used crank is no good. Under the black gunk on one of the main there is surface damage and I’ll return it back to the seller.  Dunno what will do next….

Call this company and ask about getting the old crank journal welded and ground https://www.mnrreconditioning.co.uk/services

I'm not sure if the short video of that used crank is visible, so here it is again

 

Than crank is unusable. Thankfully I got full refund.

Welding up the crank then cut back to size is no option anymore or at least for me.
Nobody locally is promising good results witn that 10k rpm crank.
Doing the nightmare to get the oil clearance spot on, pretty much getting all the 5 colors caps 
Only option is new crank + all the bearings  =  $$$$
or get that used enigne I've mentioned eirlier its 2 hours drive to get it.
But! I've get super annoyed with this guys that are selling it.
First time I've called they said 900$ for stript engine kinda pricey already for local standards .
And when I called again to give me the location to pick it up, they pumped the price to 1500$
Thats summarize local behavior of this 2nd hand parts guys.
I bought the hole thing with side cases + akra for 5500$ !!! There is no way of me paying that or not after I've read a guy in Poland paid 1000$ for one, or seeing old offers in Netherland and Italy (N/A anymore) for 1300$-1500$ complete engines with all the plugs sensors clutch covers etc. NOT just the bare minimum.

If I recall correctly the ebay listing for the crank mentioned it was "good" or similar.  It's very disappointing that there are unscrupulous sellers out there misrepresenting to take advantage of people.  Really, what the hell - did someone take a ball peen hammer to that crank journal??  They must toss parts around with no concern as to their condition.  Anyway - sorry for your troubles.  I guess the only thing you might do is to go to the seller's location with maybe $500 cash and offer it.  Be ready to walk.  I wouldn't even come above their original offering price - I'd make them come down from it.  Sellers that try to gouge people leave such a bad taste for everyone.  It totally sucks.  :angry:   I guess with what you have at those prices you could probably part out what you've got to recover some or possibly a good portion of your money and put it toward something else.  It's really too bad - that was a nice looking ride. 

Naah thats alright. That guy from ebay is cool dude. He is running the show all by himself, busy man. He bought that engine (crashed bike) without noticing that the bottom half of the engine is hit by something with pieces missing, rust develop right there in this spot that eat its way into the crank. Ofc when I met him first it I've checked everything thoroughly right there it was covored with some black gunk that I manage to get it out only after I spend some good time polishing it. After all he offer me to get the crank fixed by some racing shop in Greece that are his friends and knew what they are doing. All for his expense. But I would not fall in that rabbit hole anymore of trying to fix engine that initial Honda design is made not to be fixable. He offer to trade me for some of his good bikes, looked for used engine in all of his resources. In the end its all my fault not checking it before buying it.

For that used engine and its price.... Well, here we are kind a use to it. Fckers everywhere that enjoy giving you a good kick in the stomach while you are sick lay down. I could agree with their terms if I want to see the bike running again. Or like you said I could part it out , but lose a good portion of the money. Cuz I dont work like this guys. I made presents and sell everything super cheap for reasons exactly the oposite of the usual 2nd hand parts guys thinking. I've got bombarded with messages for parts from guys from our bulgarian 1200 fb fan page. There is one dude that crashed recently and is really stubborn to fix it all up, he offer me to buy half of mine to fix his bike.
[image: ddd.JPG]


On other hand I have my eyes on different style bike that I've look for years and maybe I'll go that route. 
Or fix mine and add that super light Dr-z to the fleet and this time dont get bankrupted when the engine die for no reason.


[image: asd.JPG]



Really appreciate all the comments and suggestions it help me stay motivated

I had a DRZ 400 SM new they are ace, great fun, but the vibes, plank seat & small tank not much good for distance work. With a KLR650 carb & DRZ-E model silencer (ha that's a joke) make it rev & go great managed 110mph on it 😁👍
 

I sold it & bought my VFR, which I'm just waiting to have its MoT done now. 

Bike passed 👍😁😁

2 minutes ago, Mohawk

Bike passed 👍😁😁

Excellent, hope you get plenty riding in for the remainder of your summer. 

Hanging out for warmer weather here and f...ing covid restriction relief!

1 hour ago, Mohawk

Bike passed 👍😁😁

Mines tomorrow, I’ll put new front brake pads in today 

1 hour ago, Grum

Excellent, hope you get plenty riding in for the remainder of your summer. 

Hanging out for warmer weather here and f...ing covid restriction relief!

All restrictions here were gone over a month ago.  Even the the US / Canadian border hss reopened.  I guess it's back to normal for us now since our commander in chief told us that we have 350 mil people vaccinated!   :laughing6-hehe:

Mohawk, 8/10/2021 at 10:21 AM

I had a DRZ 400 SM new they are ace, great fun, but the vibes, plank seat & small tank not much good for distance work. With a KLR650 carb & DRZ-E model silencer (ha that's a joke) make it rev & go great managed 110mph on it 😁👍
 

I sold it & bought my VFR, which I'm just waiting to have its MoT done now. 

DRZ will need aftermarket seat and tank. I'll it leave for the next summer.

I got that used engine
[image: IMG_1647.JPG]

almost there
[image: IMG_1650.JPG]

UK vs. Italy 10yo bike

[image: IMG_1649.JPG]

Wow - it's really proceeding quickly.  Did you work out a good deal for the motor?
 

Agree with Cogswell, no flies on you... had that engine stripped to find the problem in no time... now the replacement almost back in... impressive!  Hope it all works out well for you, its a beauty of an 8g you have there.  Glad you are saving it!