Rear hub flew off of my '92

As the title suggests, the rear hub departed the rear axle as I was riding yesterday. Luckily, I was getting off the freeway at low speed when it happened, otherwise could have been much worse. I have no idea how, but the rear axle nut must have come loose and fell off, allowing the hub to come off as well. Any insights on how this may have happened and what I can do to prevent this from happening again would be greatly appreciated!

Shit, glad you're OK!  Hopefully the bound up chain didn't do any damage around the counter shaft area.

The nut likely was not torqued and/or staked properly following a service (perhaps replacing the dampers?).  The nut on my "new to me" Honda Hawk GT was loose and I could wiggle it back and forth, but the staking prevented it from coming loose.  I have read other single sided swingarm owners with similar stories about finding a loose nut.

10 to 1 the nut was not staked as per the workshop manual. That maual can be found in the Download section here on VFRD.

Glad you are ok

Please do post some pics of the front sprocket area once uncovered so we can see if the chain did any damage... really good that you are OK, that could have been scary with a chain on the fly...

Mercy!!! I'm relieved you're not hurt... jettisoning your hub at any speed is dangerous... proper torque and stake will limit this to a one time affair...

This also happened to VFR4Lee in 2016...

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nikovee, 9/14/2021 at 9:48 AM

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And maybe it's just the angle, but your rear tire looks low and severely cupped.

thanks for the love yall! the nut was indeed staked, but maybe not properly. I haven't serviced the rear end at all in the 2 years I've owned this bike, so it's possible the PO took it to a less than reputable shop (or performed the work themselves).

And yes Captain, the tire needs to be replaced but the angle of the shot makes it look worse. Though this brings me to my next question - does that axle look stock? I have a sneaking suspicion it's not original and was taken off an older model. Reason I say this is because the pitbull rear stand I purchased came with a pin that did not fit. I confirmed with pitbull customer service that the pin I received is the correct size for my bike. Now looking at some of the other pictures in this thread, it appears that the ID of my axle is smaller..

Could actually be from a NEWER year.  The nut changed from 93 to 94.  And the 90-93 axle superceded to the 94 part number.

6 hours ago, BusyLittleShop

This also happened to VFR4Lee in 2016...

I haven't looked here in a while, and what do I see?

Thank you BLS Larry, save me the trouble wondering where those pics were.

Yeah, that sucked pretty hard and this new case looks about the same.

I think I spent about $600 for mostly used parts and got it back on the road.

Someone here was conveniently parting out a bike and had a lot of my parts.

The engine case was OK, but there was a sacrificial cage thing that was toast by the front sprocket.

Ran it about 1500 miles after the fix, it seemed solid. Then sold it.

Good luck on fixing it OP. Maybe those pics weren't so hard to find after all. 🙂

Holy Cow! That thing is chowdered. Glad to see you were not injured as that could have ended in so many different ways.

Hard to believe a properly staked axle nut would fail in this way. You obviously have your suspicions, hopefully you can bring it back to spec.

That is not the OEM '90-'93 axle (or it has something stuck into it for some reason).  Worth investigating.

Ciao,

JZH

JZH, 9/18/2021 at 1:23 AM

That is not the OEM '90-'93 axle (or it has something stuck into it for some reason).  Worth investigating.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions! Any idea of what this axle may have come off of?

Please take some really good close-ups from a couple angles.  Maybe grab some calipers for a couple measurements too.

2 hours ago, nikovee

Thanks for confirming my suspicions! Any idea of what this axle may have come off of?

Could be factory axle with some sort of sleeve stuffed in. Perhaps to fit stand of some sort?

DannoXYZ, 9/21/2021 at 12:36 PM

Could be factory axle with some sort of sleeve stuffed in. Perhaps to fit stand of some sort?

Took a closer look last night and it looks like it might actually be a plug/sleeve. Any recommendations on best practice to remove it? I sprayed some penetrant from the wheel side in there, hoping to tap it out with a socket on an extension and a deadblow 

That what I would try.  Looking for any movement with far less than brute force.

Maybe just replace the axle along with the stuff that went mia or got broke.

If it's questionable.

7 hours ago, nikovee

Took a closer look last night and it looks like it might actually be a plug/sleeve. Any recommendations on best practice to remove it? I sprayed some penetrant from the wheel side in there, hoping to tap it out with a socket on an extension and a deadblow 

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Personally, I would take it off bike completely for this operation. Then heat up outside by +100C quickly and evenly. Then pound out inner sleeve.

Not sure what idea is, since stiffness/rigidity of tube is related to ^4 power of diameter. So most of stress is handled on surface skin of tube and very little is gained by increasing wall-thickness inwards. Even then, it must be solid wall thickness. A tube-within-tube without solid bond isn't much better than outer-tube by itself.

Why not add some heat where it is?  You're not getting it cherry red, just enough heat for some differential.   You're not gonna melt any internal seals with some heat out there.  Who knows, the thing might pop right out.

sure, but centre of axle is pinched inside hub & bearing, so it won't be able to expand much. And won't be able to heat up centre as evenly as ends. Wouldn't hurt to try though.

And if that doesn't work, you can remove and heat more evenly. Then use hydraulic press to push it out.

He didn't say, and you can't tell from the pic, how long it actually is.  Appears to be at least 40mm.  If it doesn't run the whole length of the spindle, I personally would have zero problems applying a little heat and giving that thing a couple whacks before I disassembled anything. 

That being said, there would be something in the back of my mind asking, "why is it there?" and "why did the nut come off?".  Who the fuck was working on this bike?

all valid questions. my suspicion is the insert is for a wheel stand rather than any kind of structural support. the insert is about 3-4" in length, so it does not protrude through the center of the axle. going to try tapping it out, if that doesnt work the torch comes out. if that still doesnt work, then i'll need to find a way to lift the rear without a center stand then remove/rework or replace. 

supposedly PO took the bike to a reputable shop in the bay area, however it fell victim to the pandemic so unfortunately I have no way of knowing service history. 

Looking into getting all of the parts for the rear, I'm having difficulty locating the spring washer that goes between the axle nut and the cush hub, Honda PN 90501-MN8-000. (item 24 in the fiche https://www.hondapartshouse.com/oemparts/a/hon/506ca734f870023420a3fbf0/rear-wheel ), anyone have any leads? 

I am indeed considering buying a full swingarm with the rear assembly as it may be faster/cheaper than trying to piece meal this thing back together. I need to get back on this bike asap, my commute suffers greatly without it and now i get sad when Im sitting in traffic while watching fellow riders zip on by..if i didnt have a bad history of letting projects sit for years I'd probably pick up an '01 yellow 800 in the meantime 🏍️

Well...  get to whackin'!!!!!!!!!

anyone have OD/ID of this washer? I have huge box of nuts & bolts and loose stuff. Might even have one from Hawk way back when.

What's torque-spec for that nut anyway? I suspect shop didn't use torque-wrench on nut. I would safety-wire nut to axle just for security

I just did my Hawk a couple weeks ago.  It was more than I thought it would be. 120 ft/lbs.

I think properly staking it after the torque is enough.  Likely neither happened.

Looks like 195 Nm per the service manual. I know the nut was staked as I recall seeing the deformation, but guessing it wasn't staked well enough. fortunately I work in aviation and have access to plenty of safety wire, will most likely be making that mod to prevent this from happening again. 

Sorry to hear the 35mm ID "conical spring washer" is NLA--that's never a good sign!  Titan Classics reproduces the 38mm version of this in titanium, but that's only good for the NC30/35/ RC30/45 sized axles.

FYI, Revzilla says it's in stock, but I don't think I believe them, because nobody else shows it as available.  It'd be different if they were David Silver Spares or Hondarestoration.com, but I suspect their database is just out of date.  Worth checking, though.  Speaking of whom, DSS says it can be special ordered, which might be true, given that I also found it showing as "in stock" at a Japanese parts site.

If the bushing is an insert, I bet it will simply tap out using a big drift from the wheel-side.  OTOH, if that's all it is, there's probably no particular reason to remove it.  Unless you're using a SSSA stand or planning to do a single-nut conversion (which utilize a solid axle within the hollow axle), the only useful thing I can think of which you now cannot do is put a u-lock through it (or a Pragmasis "Anti-Pinch Pin", which I have here).

Ciao,

JZH

thanks for the tip JZH! placed an order through DSS, hopefully it won't take too long.

I was able to successfully remove the insert, finally got that rear up on the stand. looking at the front sprocket, I didn't notice any damage in the area nor on the cover, so I think I may be good there. I did discover that at some point the slave gasket was replaced with RTV, so ordered a replacement. Now debating whether or not I should replace chain+sprockets while I am at it, but not overly excited about having to cut the OEM masterlink-less chain off

Hey, good job getting thing insert out! Didn't realise it was alloy, and would've generated anodic corrosion with your axle over time to make quite a mess!

I went to UC Santa Cruz for bit and that salt air simply corrodes anything quickly. My chain would rust overnight after thorough cleaning and oiling!

"not overly excited about having to cut the OEM masterlink-less chain off"

wait...   how many miles are on this bike? 

3 hours ago, DannoXYZ

I went to UC Santa Cruz for bit and that salt air simply corrodes anything quickly. My chain would rust overnight after thorough cleaning and oiling!

Yeah, that's one downside of living in a beach town. Fortunately I have a garage to store the bike which helps a bit, but the roof on my '08 taco parked in the driveway is deteriorating quickly.

3 hours ago, Captain 80s

wait...   how many miles are on this bike? 

42k...chain and sprockets look OK but figured since I am already in here it'd be a good opportunity. though "if it aint broke..."

So somebody replaced the chain with an endless OEM one at some point?  Or it went that far?  Anyway, with the potential trauma that chain might have suffered and how lucky you were not to have any damage around the counter shaft, I think it's wise to replace at this juncture.  Plus, if the chain fails and takes out your clutch rod and counter shaft area, I will then ask you how much would you pay right now to not have had it happen.  Guarantee your answer is more than $100.

I suspect its the original chain. anyone know of any way to confirm that? did the oems have any part marking stamped into em?

DSS just got back to me telling they can't get the spring washer, seems like I'll have more than enough time to take care of the chain/sprockets. Wondering if anyone here would be willing to get some measurements off of their washer, thinking I may be able to find something similar on McMaster..

2 minutes ago, nikovee

I suspect its the original chain. anyone know of any way to confirm that? did the oems have any part marking stamped into em?

DSS just got back to me telling they can't get the spring washer, seems like I'll have more than enough time to take care of the chain/sprockets. Wondering if anyone here would be willing to get some measurements off of their washer, thinking I may be able to find something similar on McMaster..

The fact that it's endless is pretty much confirmation it's original.  It's had a good life.  Well...   a long life.

Scour eBay for sellers with Spindles and inquire about hardware when they took it apart.  Make a separate post in the 3rd/4th forum specifically looking for one too.

Also, in your inquiry post, mention the fact that this is the same washer as a Honda Hawk GT NT650.  There are quite a few people that own both VFRs and Hawks around here, including me.