I think my clutch plates may be begining to slip. When the bike is still a little cold, only a couple minutes into a ride, if you get on it pretty good. 7000 rpm or so it will rev up and then down quickly. Like you just pulled in the clutch a little then let it out again. I am assuming that none of the plates have ever been replaced. There is almost 48000km (30000 miles) on the bike.
All wet clutches will reach a SLIP POINT in their life and begin slipping no matter what oil is used... technically speaking a zero mile clutch is 100% away from the slip point... a 30,000 mile clutch may be only 10% away from the slip point... it's bite is affected by heat and rpms...
The notion that Energy Conserving oils are the root cause of clutch slippage is on shaky ground... there are a growing number of racers who use EC oils and report no clutch slippage due to oil...
I know some have tried EC oil and experienced slippage... but those are clutches that proved to be near their natural SLIP POINT... you see EC oils are about 10% more slippery that non EC oil... and that 10% can push the clutch slip point to 0%... thus the clutch begins to slip... now drain the EC oil and go back to non EC oil and the clutch bites barely because it's back into it's 10% slip point... so is the culprit the normal SLIP POINT or the oil???
I have been using a semi synthetic oil since I purchased the bike. Well over a year ago. At least 4 oil changes. And I have only notice it in the last week. I also did not put the first 33,000 km on it. So who knows the abuse it took before.
Dennis The Menace, Apr 19 2005, 10:36 AM So who knows the abuse it took before.
At a Laguna Seca track school my 31,000 mile clutch began slipping during short burst into the red line... Upon disassembly here's what I found and how I saved $240.00 in new clutch parts...
The friction plates were glazed over but had plenty of material to work with... I removed the contaminants with an Acetone bath... then went over each plate both sides with a red 3M scratch pad... Compare the "glazed" and the "glaze removed" in the pic below... now my friction plate are good as new... (IMG:http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/uploads/1113861108/gallery_3131_51_129667.jpg)
The pressure plates were blued in spots from excessive heat... but they still had plenty of meat and were not warped... I removed the contaminants with an Acetone bath and wire wheeled them to erased the blue and generally scuff up the surface... Compare the "Blue marks" to the "Blue marks removed" in the pic below... now my pressure plate looks as new as one from the dealer... (IMG:http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/uploads/1113861108/gallery_3131_51_40098.jpg)
Now if this looks like work... you're right... but you can invest in some sweat equity to bring a slipping clutch back to biting good as new... because wet clutches don't wear out... they just need some maintenance... here's proof...
A buddy suggested putting a washer in to shim them to get a little more pressure. I should probably just get off my ass and pull it apart. Only 24 days to the first trackday.
ScootR, Apr 19 2005, 12:22 PM Interesting and nice pics. EC oils, um... moly additives supposely but get this all the Honda oils have moly:
All in ppms and most oils I ever see/test are < 100 or none at all.
Yes EC oil... Energy Conserving Designation tells whether the oil has energy conserving properties when compared with a reference oil in an engine test... I think what ever they use falls under the heading of FM or friction modifiers...
Honda employs Moly because they know it won't cause a *new* clutch to slip... for an old clutch... well I think they are spring loaded in selling you a new one to care...
johne, Apr 19 2005, 12:45 PM Do the springs wear out? Any advantage to stiffer ones?
Stock springs don't wear out but they do sag because Japanese springs are made out of piano wire... which are known to sag with use... just look to the sag your fork springs develop over time... aftermarket springs are usually made from silicone steel which do not sag... Detroit uses silicone steel in their springs and you ever see cars sag...
The only advantage to stiffer springs is if you up the HP and need more bite to arrest slipping... other than that... your inviting an needless arm work out...
BusyLittleShop, Apr 19 2005, 03:04 PMYes EC oil... Energy Conserving Designation tells whether the oil has energy conserving properties when compared with a reference oil in an engine test... I think what ever they use falls under the heading of FM or friction modifiers...
Honda employs Moly because they know it won't cause a *new* clutch to slip... for an old clutch... well I think they are spring loaded in selling you a new one to care...
Yes I know that, we not only run those tests they were in fact designed by co-workers of mine at SwRI. I also had one for a HD diesel. We do flying flushes where we can flush the old oil out of the engine and change to the next oil or reference oil while the engine is running on test ! No shutdowns helps get better data as we are trying to measure fuel economy improvements of 1 % or less. EC2 is 2 % and on used oil, EC1 tested fresh oil only and as oil ages, vis goes up, and all fuel economy improvement it had is lost. Why Honda and others are pushing 5W-20 oils BTW. The reality now is almost all improvement seen with oils is vis related vs friction modifiers, that was all BS in the first place.
Moly is a friction modifier and there is also what is known as boundary layer additives or lubricants. Stuff that makes parts slip or have less friction when oil films are thin and/or sliding speeds are low and oil vis can not provide protection against wear = friction = loss of fuel mileage. This is why I won't use them and only use 15 or 20W-50's. I don't want wear. I keep my vehicles a long time. My STS has 191K, my IROC over 200K, both on Mobil 1 15W-50 and they don't use oil. I'll take the 0.5 mpg hit if it is even that much. Do the math, what costs more, gas or a new car ? The only reason this is being done is to meet Fed CAFE requirements by law. I remember the day somebody from the Govt called SwRI and wonder what happens to all this FE improvement on used oil and that the tests were performed on new oil only and as soon as the owner did the 1st oil change, got rid of the 5W-20 crap ? Um...??? This is why the testing protocol changed and why OEMS are forced into stating in their owners manuals to use the low vis oils. It was that or the FEDs were going to take away the gains and/or fine them for not meeting the standards.
I just changed from M1 15w50 red cap to M1 20w50 V-Twin this weekend. I noticed after a very short time that the clutch started grabing a lot harder. I didn't think it was slipping before, but there is now a marked difference. Does this make sense? :huh:
How many miles on bike/clutch ? I didn't notice this, mine is smooth, shifting is like butter now. Did you get the Super Syn new stuff ? Much higher vis, 21 vs 17 cSts now. My VFR has never shifted this good, no clunking, snicks into gears now like the CBR and even the damn Magna. Magna will shift w/o clutch no problem, it's a blast, VFR doesn't seem to like this at all. Magna has VT 20W-50 too.
I'm not having problems with the tranny, just more positive engagement of the clutch. Shifting is nice and smooth. I must have been getting lazy because if I let the clutch out a little quick now the bike really jumps. It's nothing that alarms me. Actually I see it as a good thing.
The bike has about 13,000 miles on it, hardly broke in. I had to get last year's formula because that's all they had - like 12 dust-covered bottles on a shelf by the register at Auto Zone. That stuff is hard as hell to find. They also had some 20w50 cycle oil from Havoline I think? Cheaper, but I let it stay there. Maybe they'll have some of the new M1 by my next oil change.
BusyLittleShop, Apr 19 2005, 02:04 PMYes EC oil... Energy Conserving Designation tells whether the oil has energy conserving properties when compared with a reference oil in an engine test... I think what ever they use falls under the heading of FM or friction modifiers...
Honda employs Moly because they know it won't cause a *new* clutch to slip... for an old clutch... well I think they are spring loaded in selling you a new one to care...
BLS,
Did you every use Kal-Gard's Engine CardTM back in the old days? I ran it (along with GTX 20-50) in a DOHC inline endurance bike for two seasons in the early 80s. Never a hint of clutch slippage and post-season teardowns showed no measurable wear anywhere in the engine/transmission.
edit: ScootR, did you ever fool around with this stuff?
Did you every use Kal-Gard's Engine CardTM back in the old days? I ran it (along with GTX 20-50) in a DOHC inline endurance bike for two seasons in the early 80s. Never a hint of clutch slippage and post-season teardowns showed no measurable wear anywhere in the engine/transmission.
edit: ScootR, did you ever fool around with this stuff?
I remember Kal Guard's stuff but I never used it...
Don't know if it happens on 4th gens too, but mine and other's 5th gens have been found to have corrosion in the bore of the clutch slave cylinder. When cold, the seal will hang up on this corrosion causing the clutch to slip. As the engine would warm up (about 4 minutes of riding in my case) the piston would complete it's cycle in the bore and slipping would cease.
I was ready to put a clutch in mine due to the problem, but I ended up cleaning the bore with emory cloth (there wasn't much corrosion total, but it was enough). I reinserted the original seal (lube with brake fluid) and bled the system. It works perfect now.
BusyLittleShop, Apr 20 2005, 02:04 AMHave you ever done a test to show the HP difference between a 50 weight oil and a 30 weight oil in your motorcycle???
No but I know it will show a significant difference, have done it at work on a HD diesel comparing a straight 10 to a 40. Not worried about power loss, worried about engine life. More power = CBR1000RR.
ScootR, Apr 20 2005, 06:44 AMNo but I know it will show a significant difference, have done it at work on a HD diesel comparing a straight 10 to a 40. Not worried about power loss, worried about engine life. More power = CBR1000RR.
What's to worry about a 30 versus 40 weight shorting your engine's life???
scooter996, Apr 20 2005, 10:18 AMThe Honda products are WITH and WITHOUT moly. I believe the silver bottle is with and the gold one is without moly.
That's why I bought, the with moly is 628 ppm, the withouts, 2 of them, were 61 and 70 ppm. That is still a lot in my book. The 628 ppm was HP4M, M for moly.
30 vs 40, big deal, but all of the lowest wear I've seen were 50's. Example, again, valvetrain wear test
Pass/fail limit is 20 mg Top tier limit is 12 mg Good oils, single digit, 8-9 mg (These were all 15W-40's) The 20W-50 we tested...2 mg !
End of thread · 24 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 8 May 2005