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Hossackviffer Mkii

217 posts Started 21 Oct 2009 Last recovered post 26 Feb 2015 Wayback Machine snapshot 26 Nov 2020
#2 SEBSPEED
I would jig as much of the frame as possible, try to make it modular. Break it down to left half, right half, front, and connections. Make jigs for each, then tie them together with temporary braces, finish weld, and heat treat/stress relieve. Also, I realize that you may not have access to a tube bender, but the less pieces you use, the better.

You might like to try making one of these tube notchers: http://64.172.168.34...cbh-notcher.htm

There's lots of good info on the main page as well; chopper oriented, but as you know a lot of it applies to your build too! http://64.172.168.34/neatstuff/
#3 JamieDaugherty
That is oh, so sweet!

It looks like you have a bunch of individual sections. Have you thought about making some a continuous piece? I'm particularly talking about the longest horizontal bar. It looks like it's not straight, but it would seem to be easier to bend that part and use it as the base to weld everything else from.

Keep us up to date on your progress!
#4 redmarque Thread starter
[quote name='Baketech' date='Oct 21 2009, 12:07 PM' post='657286'
what modeler are you using?
[/quote]

Cheers Guys, sure that this build will be a major improvement on the last!

Modelling is in Solidworks 2009 - I'm really impressed with it coming from an AutoCAD 2D user.
#5 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on Oct 21 2009, 12:38 PM, said:

Have you thought about making some a continuous piece? I'm particularly talking about the longest horizontal bar.

Thanks Jamie! Yes, i'm actually going to use a tube bender this time!! The tube from the top wishbone pivot to the one above the rear cylinder heads will be one piece. it could go all the way to the rear shock tube but putting 2 bends at different angles each side could prove tricky.

I'll post up a 3D mock-up of the jig/fixtures when I've design them for your thoughts.

BTW, thanks again for the info on CBR954 shocks! :fing02:
#6 SEBSPEED
Speaking of Solidworks, I think I might know of a guy who can do stress analysis on your design. He's on customfighters.com and goes by "shift1313".
#7 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on Oct 21 2009, 12:04 PM, said:

I would jig as much of the frame as possible, try to make it modular. Break it down to left half, right half, front, and connections. Make jigs for each, then tie them together with temporary braces, finish weld, and heat treat/stress relieve. Also, I realize that you may not have access to a tube bender, but the less pieces you use, the better.

You might like to try making one of these tube notchers: http://64.172.168.34...cbh-notcher.htm

There's lots of good info on the main page as well; chopper oriented, but as you know a lot of it applies to your build too! http://64.172.168.34/neatstuff/

Nice notcher and website suggestion Seb!
I agree that a modular jig would be the best way forward - John Bradley's books show some good examples of making sub-jigs to alight things acurately like swingarm pivots and head tubes.

I've earmarked some 60x60mm steel box section with a 3mm thick wall to build the jig out of. should be plenty strong enough to aid minimising distortion.
Jig will be all bolted together and allow for shiming to the uprights so that they remain vertical.
#8 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on Oct 21 2009, 01:17 PM, said:

Speaking of Solidworks, I think I might know of a guy who can do stress analysis on your design. He's on customfighters.com and goes by "shift1313".

Oh! handy. Solidworks it'self can do single element/frame analysis - not sure if I'll get my head around it though! so would be excellent to get some advise.
#9 rdguy

[image: View Post]redmarque, on Oct 21 2009, 06:37 AM, said:

Feel free to comment/suggest ideas as i'd really like this to turn out better than MK1! :biggrin:

Nice. What are you going to do for steering links? IIRC, they are the most, uh, entertaining part of doing a Hossack (unless you're doing parallel, equal length links, and where's the challenge in that?).

Do you know the chassis design maillist run out of micapeak.com or Eurospares?

Glenn
#10 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]Baketech, on Oct 21 2009, 01:52 PM, said:

Are you re-using your old yoke and clipons, or have you considered making that one monolithic unit?

Yes, thought about making a new lighter weight one. (like the Bimota Tesi 3D) but will use the orignal for now as cost $$ to machine
#11 redmarque Thread starter

Feel free to comment/suggest ideas as i'd really like this to turn out better than MK1! :blink:


Nice. What are you going to do for steering links? IIRC, they are the most, uh, entertaining part of doing a Hossack (unless you're doing parallel, equal length links, and where's the challenge in that?).

Do you know the chassis design maillist run out of micapeak.com or Eurospares?

Glenn

I'm going to be boring and use the 'standard' hossack parallel/equal length links. seen some other solutions to the linkage of bars to forks but all require machining skills i don't have.... some times it's best to KIS

As to the chassis design list - I'm already on it. There's some good discussion and recommendation going on there. Also some pearls of wisdom from the older members of the list. I'd recommend signing up for anyone who's interested in making a motorcycle chassis.

Always thought it would be good to turn it into a Forum like VFRD?
#12 rdguy
OK, I didn't recognize your user name from the chassis list. I think if I was going to build another FFE I'd go with a parallel/equal Hossack as well, just to keep complications down to the point where it might actually get completed :blush: .

I think there was a suggestion of turning the chassis list into a forum at some point recently (was that you?). Michael can 'outsource' the list operation to micapeak. A forum would be a bunch more work - I don't know how HS runs this and still gets to ride.

Glenn

I'm going to be boring and use the 'standard' hossack parallel/equal length links. seen some other solutions to the linkage of bars to forks but all require machining skills i don't have.... some times it's best to KIS

As to the chassis design list - I'm already on it. There's some good discussion and recommendation going on there. Also some pearls of wisdom from the older members of the list. I'd recommend signing up for anyone who's interested in making a motorcycle chassis.

Always thought it would be good to turn it into a Forum like VFRD?


#13 redmarque Thread starter
Thanks Glynn -good to have a sanity check about linkage ideas. Very much agree with your "actually get completed" statement!
You mention that you've built an FFE before? Any chance we can see pictures/designs of it? what was it like to ride?

As to the Chassis list becoming a forum - that's really something i'd like to see (though haven't suggested on list) I would be seroiusly willing to help run one, if the list would agree? I believe a reliable bunch of admin volunteers is the key to HS's success.
PM me if you'd like to discuss further.


I think if I was going to build another FFE I'd go with a parallel/equal Hossack as well, just to keep complications down to the point where it might actually get completed :fing02: .

I think there was a suggestion of turning the chassis list into a forum at some point recently (was that you?). Michael can 'outsource' the list operation to micapeak. A forum would be a bunch more work - I don't know how HS runs this and still gets to ride.


#14 redmarque Thread starter

Nerdly CAD question for you... :huh:

Prior to modeling, what are you using to work out the geometry....are you riffing this in SW also, or do you find it easier to sketch those freebody elements in AutoCad?


I think it's just as easier to draw straight into Solidworks. i've imported a few drawings from autocad but end up using tem as a template for a new sketch!
Best to:
"normal to" a view first - front, right or top. then use the origin as a reference to start your 2D sketch. You can always use the 2d sketch as a reference to create a 3d sketch. Smart dimension also makes alterations far easier than autocad.

Red
#15 SEBSPEED
I haven't used SolidWorks, I was introduced to 3D modeling with Catia here at work. It's pretty cool and I hear it's very similar to SolidWorks. I need to spend more time with it!
#16 redmarque Thread starter

I haven't used SolidWorks, I was introduced to 3D modeling with Catia here at work. It's pretty cool and I hear it's very similar to SolidWorks. I need to spend more time with it!


Oh Catia.. big boy's toy's - you should definalty learn it Seb :huh: especially if work will pay for the courses!

take a look at SolidCAM - like the idea of walking into a machine shop with the g-code ready written and checked to run the NC Mill
#17 SEBSPEED
We use SurfCAM & CatiaNC for that! :huh: (another thing I need to spend more time with!)
#18 JamieDaugherty
SolidWorks is head and shoulders above the rest. I think it's funny how people claim "it's a lot like SolidWorks" when SW will blow it away. Catia is in the same category as ProE - they are dinosaurs*. The only system comparible to SW is SolidEdge. There are some things like I better about each, but overall they are equivalent. Systems like Catia, ProE, etc have some neat functionality but considering how much of a pain they are to use they just don't stack up. What takes me 10min on ProE would take me about 2min on SW or SE... literally. Add that up over a day and you can see my frustration.

Redmarque - don't forget to keep those updates coming!



* ProE is what I use at work now and it's horrible.
#19 SEBSPEED

SolidWorks is head and shoulders above the rest. I think it's funny how people claim "it's a lot like SolidWorks" when SW will blow it away. Catia is in the same category as ProE - they are dinosaurs*. The only system comparible to SW is SolidEdge. There are some things like I better about each, but overall they are equivalent. Systems like Catia, ProE, etc have some neat functionality but considering how much of a pain they are to use they just don't stack up. What takes me 10min on ProE would take me about 2min on SW or SE... literally. Add that up over a day and you can see my frustration.

Redmarque - don't forget to keep those updates coming!



* ProE is what I use at work now and it's horrible.



Yep, that's why Boeing, Sikorsky, Lockheed, Vought, and a few other aerospace manufacturers use Catia... because it takes them longer and it's harder to use... :huh: Catia and ProE are NOT the same. The old Catia V4, yes that was painful, but V5 is great.

"A horse for every course" ... saying one is better than another only applies to what you're working on...
#20 Chev
I use Solid Works about every day. Well, ok my drafters do. I mainly use it for stress analysis.

Send me your part file, detailed material/heat treat specs, and some potential loads and I will do some analysis for you. I can probably do some fatigue analysis if I take the time to learn that part. :cool:
#21 gstanfield
Bike looks like a really nice concept. I agree on solidworks being great. I've been out of that stuff for about 5 yrs, but even back then Solidworks and surfcam were my most used programs when I was a design engineer. I also used a bit of autoCad, but always felt it was second rate compared to solidworks.

George
#22 redmarque Thread starter

I use Solid Works about every day. Well, ok my drafters do. I mainly use it for stress analysis.

Send me your part file, detailed material/heat treat specs, and some potential loads and I will do some analysis for you. I can probably do some fatigue analysis if I take the time to learn that part. :cool:


Fantastic! what a great offer! That's really kind of you Chev. :blink: not sure what the potential loads would be as I'm no engineer! mind you, you probably have some views/experience on the matter?
#23 Chev
Rule of thumb........... overload the model and see what breaks. :cool:


I'm looking forward to playing with another type of problem. :blink:
#24 redmarque Thread starter

Rule of thumb........... overload the model and see what breaks. :cool:


I'm looking forward to playing with another type of problem. :cool:


Oh Goody! :blink: that sounds like 'fun' (hum.. but slightly nerdy too) :blush:
#26 Chev
I wonder,

Do you plan on going around a 15 ft radius turn at 35 mph or 75....... the forces between the two are drastically different.

Maybe somewhere in between?
#27 JamieDaugherty
Hey Redmarque, it's been a whole day and no updates? You aren't being a slacker are you?
#28 redmarque Thread starter
Jamie.... :laugh:

Sometimes the 'Mate' proccess in SW can be a pain.. (or more likely my understanding of it)

Designed/added the steering linkage; it's now put the ball joint/fork position out of place. :cool:

[image: Posted Image]

Will need to add some 2mm stiffening plates to the arms. pivots; using M8 rodends

Do you guy's think it's worth perchasing radial calipers to use with the 296mm braking wavy discs, or should I continue with the conventional yamaha blue spot ones I had before? bear in mind the master cylinder is 2005 R6 brembo radial model.
#29 redmarque Thread starter
Here's the new bench I've made for the new build.. nice and flat. Top is 5mm thick rolled steel.
note the giant t-square used to re-measure the engine with.

[image: Posted Image]
#30 SEBSPEED
Good work on the bench. Have you thought of building a motor stand and tacking it directly to the table? Would make wrenching easier!
#31 SEBSPEED
Oh, and BTW, did you ever happen to weigh your MkI chassis and compare its weight to that of the OEM? I'd be pretty interested in knowing!
#32 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on Oct 23 2009, 11:25 AM, said:

Good work on the bench. Have you thought of building a motor stand and tacking it directly to the table? Would make wrenching easier!

Kinda.. i made this stand so that the exhaust could stay on and everything would be level. even has a cut-out for the drain plug

[image: Posted Image]

When i've stripped the old frame i'll put it on the scales and let you know. I remember weighing it before, but without the stearing assembly attached to the frame; it was about the same as stock IIRC. New frame 'should' be bit lighter.
#33 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]Chev, on Oct 23 2009, 01:24 AM, said:

I wonder,

Do you plan on going around a 15 ft radius turn at 35 mph or 75....... the forces between the two are drastically different.

Maybe somewhere in between?

15ft? that's a pretty tight turn to be doing at 35mph? but understand what you mean I think! Can you analyze an assembly of parts with solidworks?
#34 redmarque Thread starter
OK! things that really fried my noodle on MK1 were the rear engine mounts! Mr Honda decided that they should be of different heights and not in line with each other. :mad:
Solution: keep the frame symetrical and use mounting plates to to allow for the difference. Note the left offset of the rear shock top mount- single sided swingarms though looking good cause headaches!

[image: Posted Image]
#35 redmarque Thread starter
Designed the rear subframe... single seater only this time. next which seat unit should I use? Seen some nice one's by tyga for a NC30
[image: Posted Image]
#38 SEBSPEED

[image: View Post]redmarque, on Oct 24 2009, 05:08 AM, said:

Designed the rear subframe... single seater only this time. next which seat unit should I use? Seen some nice one's by tyga for a NC30
[image: Posted Image]

More steel tube for the subframe? meh... how about bolting on an ally unit or bending one from ally sheet? I can help with that! I have software just for bending! :cool:
#39 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on Oct 24 2009, 03:43 PM, said:

More steel tube for the subframe? meh... how about bolting on an ally unit or bending one from ally sheet? I can help with that! I have software just for bending! :cool:
Ok 6061 ally tube one it is then! better brush up my tig skills. :blush:
#40 SEBSPEED

[image: View Post]redmarque, on Oct 24 2009, 11:12 AM, said:

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on Oct 24 2009, 03:43 PM, said:

More steel tube for the subframe? meh... how about bolting on an ally unit or bending one from ally sheet? I can help with that! I have software just for bending! :cool:
Ok 6061 ally tube one it is then! better brush up my tig skills. :blush:


Aluminum's easy once you get the hang of it. :fing02:
#42 redmarque Thread starter
Couple of small updates.
purchased a set of 04-06 R1 Raidal Calipers. I'll need to modify the hossack fork design to fit these! :biggrin:

[image: Posted Image]

measured/added the Ducati 748/916 Radiator to the model. Packaging packaging!

[image: Posted Image]
#44 Chev

[image: View Post]redmarque, on 23 October 2009 - 06:02 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Chev, on Oct 23 2009, 01:24 AM, said:

I wonder,

Do you plan on going around a 15 ft radius turn at 35 mph or 75....... the forces between the two are drastically different.

Maybe somewhere in between?

15ft? that's a pretty tight turn to be doing at 35mph? but understand what you mean I think! Can you analyze an assembly of parts with solidworks?


I can analyze assemblies.
#45 JamieDaugherty
Any concerns about debris getting kicked up with that radiator being so low?
#46 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]Chev, on 28 October 2009 - 10:40 AM, said:

[image: View Post]redmarque, on 23 October 2009 - 06:02 AM, said:

Can you analyze an assembly of parts with solidworks?

I can analyze assemblies.


Excellent! once i've added more detail i'll PM you to discuss 'virtual' breakage :comp13:
#47 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 28 October 2009 - 11:13 AM, said:

Any concerns about debris getting kicked up with that radiator being so low?


Yes.. I'd like a more V -shaped radiator but have yet to find an suitable rad from another bike that would fit the space.
Could always add a mesh guard over it though?
#48 SEBSPEED

[image: View Post]redmarque, on 28 October 2009 - 11:45 AM, said:

[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 28 October 2009 - 11:13 AM, said:

Any concerns about debris getting kicked up with that radiator being so low?


Yes.. I'd like a more V -shaped radiator but have yet to find an suitable rad from another bike that would fit the space.
Could always add a mesh guard over it though?



How about two VTEC rads? (slightly larger than 5th gen) Right side up front(has fill neck), left side under the tail with a computer fan?

You could add a contour to the right rad by bending it in a wooden jig in a vise; someone here did that with an oil cooler... might fit under the lower triple that way? Connect with aluminum tubing to dissipate heat?
#49 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 28 October 2009 - 11:52 AM, said:

How about two VTEC rads? (slightly larger than 5th gen) Right side up front(has fill neck), left side under the tail with a computer fan?

You could add a contour to the right rad by bending it in a wooden jig in a vise; someone here did that with an oil cooler... might fit under the lower triple that way? Connect with aluminum tubing to dissipate heat?


Sounds promising.. a bit like a benelli tornado with under seat mount rad and fans?

[image: Posted Image]

Or.. how about a couple of ktm 640/superduke side ones? mounted at a slight top tipped over and inwards? could add a small rad under the seat too for extra cooling like you say?

[image: Posted Image]
#50 SEBSPEED
Nothin wrong with a little junk in the trunk... :goofy: The db rads would likely be too small on their own, a third might make a feasible system, dunno for sure though.

Edit... If you have a large conventional front mount rad laying around of the correct width, you could cut it down between rows to reduce its height,and pipe it down to a dirtbike or VFR side mount rad, similar to the VF750 setup:

Horrible MS Paint...
[image: Posted Image]

VF:
[image: Posted Image]

[image: Posted Image]
#51 Pete McCrary
What are you going to make the main frame members out of? 4130 or 4140? And seeing as how I'm a civil engineer and we build things out of concrete, asphalt paving, and lots of dirt, what exactly is the difference between 4130 & 4140?

Are you having a hard time finding the correct metal? I've been ordering a lot from an outfit called "On Line Metals" (I think). They have just about every metal in any size there is. Best thing is they will sell in quantities as small as 12" long. There is nothing I hate worse than only needing 6" of a certain size tube for one of my projects and some place like MSC only has it in 6 ft quantities.
#52 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 28 October 2009 - 01:37 PM, said:

what exactly is the difference between 4130 & 4140?

Good Questions Pete! I had to look it up.
The .30 in 4130 is the average percentage of carbon in the steel. Apparently "it is difficult to make a weld that does not crack or does not have hidden inclusions or occlusions in the weld." with more that .30%

I plan on using 1 inch 1.5mm wall CFS 5 BK (Carbon Manganese) which has .23% carbon and has a tensile strengh of 600 N/mm2

Quote

Are you having a hard time finding the correct metal?

Yes, it's difficult to get small lengths from stockholders in the UK too. luckly the fabricator that welded my last frame has quite a few off-cuts. but still the tube i'm using comes in 15m lengths! Will have to do a bit of hunting to find En24 Steel in small quanities.
#53 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 28 October 2009 - 01:27 PM, said:

Edit... If you have a large conventional front mount rad laying around of the correct width, you could cut it down between rows to reduce its height,and pipe it down to a dirtbike or VFR side mount rad, similar to the VF750 setup:

Yeah that's good Seb, like your thinking...
Kinda DIY setup of how the Ducati streetfighter radiators layout

[image: Posted Image]

Apreciate the effort you took with MS Paint BTW
#54 shrek
I think radiators from a TL1000R may be just the ticket for you. It is a 2 piece unit which is designed for the upper to be tucked into the void between the forward bank of cylinders and the steering head, while the lower sits below the forward valve cover and angles aft. the two units bolt together. Might be just the packaging solution you're seeking.

upper radiator
[image: Posted Image]
lower radiator
[image: Posted Image]
#55 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]shrek, on 28 October 2009 - 03:23 PM, said:

I think radiators from a TL1000R may be just the ticket for you. It is a 2 piece unit which is designed for the upper to be tucked into the void between the forward bank of cylinders and the steering head, while the lower sits below the forward valve cover and angles aft. the two units bolt together. Might be just the packaging solution you're seeking.


Top man! :fing02: that could work well. Any chance you could have a measure up on your TLR? :cool:
#56 enzed_viffer

[image: View Post]redmarque, on 28 October 2009 - 12:40 PM, said:

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 28 October 2009 - 11:52 AM, said:

How about two VTEC rads? (slightly larger than 5th gen) Right side up front(has fill neck), left side under the tail with a computer fan?

You could add a contour to the right rad by bending it in a wooden jig in a vise; someone here did that with an oil cooler... might fit under the lower triple that way? Connect with aluminum tubing to dissipate heat?


Sounds promising.. a bit like a benelli tornado with under seat mount rad and fans?

You mean, like a Britten, with an underseat radiator, and cleverly designed aerodynamics to route airflow through the middle of the bike and past the radiator? (Benelli came along more laterer).
#57 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]enzed_viffer, on 28 October 2009 - 03:44 PM, said:

You mean, like a Britten, with an underseat radiator, and cleverly designed aerodynamics to route airflow through the middle of the bike and past the radiator? (Benelli came along more laterer).


Yep that's type of thing.. as Seb suggests have one rad at the front and one at the back.

The Britten.. now that's a motorcycle! (think I'd better go lay down now. Phew)

[image: Posted Image]
#58 JamieDaugherty

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 28 October 2009 - 01:37 PM, said:

What are you going to make the main frame members out of? 4130 or 4140? And seeing as how I'm a civil engineer and we build things out of concrete, asphalt paving, and lots of dirt, what exactly is the difference between 4130 & 4140?

Are you having a hard time finding the correct metal? I've been ordering a lot from an outfit called "On Line Metals" (I think). They have just about every metal in any size there is. Best thing is they will sell in quantities as small as 12" long. There is nothing I hate worse than only needing 6" of a certain size tube for one of my projects and some place like MSC only has it in 6 ft quantities.



Sometimes it boils down to what grade is commonly available in the size/shape you need. In this case, 4130 is nomally what you can get in thin-walled tubing. 4140 is supplied in bar stock for machining use. Because of the lower carbon carbon the 4130 is not as strong but is also more ductile (less brittle) than 4140.

Try checking for a Metal Supermarkets in your area. I love that place!
#59 Chev

[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 28 October 2009 - 06:42 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 28 October 2009 - 01:37 PM, said:

What are you going to make the main frame members out of? 4130 or 4140? And seeing as how I'm a civil engineer and we build things out of concrete, asphalt paving, and lots of dirt, what exactly is the difference between 4130 & 4140?

Are you having a hard time finding the correct metal? I've been ordering a lot from an outfit called "On Line Metals" (I think). They have just about every metal in any size there is. Best thing is they will sell in quantities as small as 12" long. There is nothing I hate worse than only needing 6" of a certain size tube for one of my projects and some place like MSC only has it in 6 ft quantities.



Sometimes it boils down to what grade is commonly available in the size/shape you need. In this case, 4130 is nomally what you can get in thin-walled tubing. 4140 is supplied in bar stock for machining use. Because of the lower carbon carbon the 4130 is not as strong but is also more ductile (less brittle) than 4140.

Try checking for a Metal Supermarkets in your area. I love that place!


Both are hard to weld properly. Make sure the proper welding rod is used as well as a proper pre-heat and post weld heat.
#60 JamieDaugherty

[image: View Post]Chev, on 28 October 2009 - 07:09 PM, said:

Both are hard to weld properly. Make sure the proper welding rod is used as well as a proper pre-heat and post weld heat.


I knew there was something about you I liked!
#61 Pete McCrary

[image: View Post]Chev, on 28 October 2009 - 07:09 PM, said:

[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 28 October 2009 - 06:42 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 28 October 2009 - 01:37 PM, said:

What are you going to make the main frame members out of? 4130 or 4140? And seeing as how I'm a civil engineer and we build things out of concrete, asphalt paving, and lots of dirt, what exactly is the difference between 4130 & 4140?

Are you having a hard time finding the correct metal? I've been ordering a lot from an outfit called "On Line Metals" (I think). They have just about every metal in any size there is. Best thing is they will sell in quantities as small as 12" long. There is nothing I hate worse than only needing 6" of a certain size tube for one of my projects and some place like MSC only has it in 6 ft quantities.



Sometimes it boils down to what grade is commonly available in the size/shape you need. In this case, 4130 is nomally what you can get in thin-walled tubing. 4140 is supplied in bar stock for machining use. Because of the lower carbon carbon the 4130 is not as strong but is also more ductile (less brittle) than 4140.

Try checking for a Metal Supermarkets in your area. I love that place!


Both are hard to weld properly. Make sure the proper welding rod is used as well as a proper pre-heat and post weld heat.


Whenever I use 4130, I gas weld it using a copper coated mild steel rod.
#62 Pete McCrary
Found the link! These people sell just about everything and like I said earlier they will sell in quantities as small as a one foot sections. I order from them quite often.

http://www.onlinemetals.com/
#64 SEBSPEED

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 28 October 2009 - 07:24 PM, said:

Whenever I use 4130, I gas weld it using a copper coated mild steel rod.


You mean ER70S? ;)
#65 SEBSPEED
I went on Google to get you some info on seamless DOM tubing and found this...

Freshly plagiarized from a plagiarism on a 4x4 forum thread- (sorry for the length, but very informative!)


Quote

Steel Tubing

It is impossible to go into details about every type and shape and grade of steel product available or that we might be interested in. There are far too many, and availability will vary greatly depending on location and manufacturer/supplier.

That said, one of the most often used, most often asked about, and most often misunderstood products we use is the venerable round steel tubing.

Round steel tube is commonly available in a number of industry standard sizes. For an idea of the common industry sizes (inside diameter (ID), outside diameter (OD), and wall thickness) browse the supply catalogue of your local supplier or check the Pirate4x4.com tech database HERE and especially HERE.

Note that round steel mechanical tubing is NORMALLY ordered and supplied based on a specified OD and wall thickness. The ID is the result of these former 2 specs. There are however some exceptions to this - most notably in true seamless tubing.

Here are some Flash� graphics of the different steel tube forming processes that I snagged from the excellent Steel Tube Institute of North America website.

Contnuous (butt welded) pipe process.
The continuous process produces a full range of pipe sizes from only a few different widths of skelp. The coils of skelp, or strip, are fed into the mill and their ends welded together to provide a continuous flow. The strip passes through a pre-heater and into a furnace. The heated strip is shaped into an arc of about 270� in a forming stand before passing into the welding stand. There a nozzle applies oxygen to the edges to further heat them as they are pressed and welded together. The pipe's OD and wall thickness are reduced in a stretch-reducing mill. Pipe is then cut to length, reduced to the required size in a sizing mill and water-cooled before being straightened. It is then ready for finishing


Typical Electric Resistance Welded tube process
Steel strip is unwound from coils and side-trimmed to control width and condition the edges for welding. The strip then passes through a series of contoured rolls which progressively cold-form it into a circular shape. The edges are forced together under pressure and welded by heating the steel to temperatures between 2200� F and 2600� F using copper contacts or coil induction. Weld flash is removed from the the inside and outside surfaces of the newly-formed pipe, and the weld zone is heat treated to ensure homogeneity between the base metal and weld. The weld is subjected to in-line nondestructive testing, and the tube then passes through a series of sizing rolls to attain its precise finished diameter. It is then straightened and cut to the desired finished length.


DOM tube being constructed, starting as ERW and then being drawn over a mandrel.
The manufacturing process for DOM tubing begins with coils of steel, which are slit to the proper width for the desired tube size. The strip is cold formed and passed through an electric resistance welder which joins the edges together, under pressure, to complete the tubular shape. After testing the weld's integrity, the tubing is cut to length for further processing

Seamless tube construction
The production process for seamless tube begins by heating a steel billet to about 2250� F. The red-hot billet is rotated and drawn by rolls over a piercing rod, or mandrel. The action of the rolls causes the metal to flow over and about the mandrel to create a hollow tube shell. After reheating, the shell is moved forward over a support bar and is hot-rolled in several reducing/sizing stands to the desired wall thickness and diameter. The tube, which has grown significantly in length during the piercing and sizing processes, is then cut into sections and conveyed across a cooling bed to cool slowly in the air. It then receives whatever finishing processes are needed to meet customer requirements.


Steel tubing is usually supplied in one of the following forms:

Seamless Tube.
This is expensive and specialized stuff. It IS NOT the commonly used (and misreferenced) DOM tubing, as DOM tubing does indeed have a seam (albeit, almost invisible - more details below). True seamless tubing is uncommon in 4x4 and automotive use. It is seamless because it is manufactured by a process know as "extrusion" where a solid bar of steel is pierced down the center with a die, at unthinkable pressures, to form a tube. The process looks similar to how hollow pasta (macaroni etc) is made. There are 2 sub-types of seamless tube:

Cold Drawn Seamless (CDS) Tube is normally drawn to O.D. and I.D. dimensions and produced to standard dimensional tolerances (this differs from most other types of tubing except DOM) . It is normally made from SAE 1018 and is considered good quality.
Hot Finished Seamless (HFS) Tube is lower in cost than cold drawn and most applicable where precise dimensions and surface quality are of secondary importance. It is manufactured to O.D. and wall dimensions from SAE 1026 steel and is scaly, less dependable and not as strong as cold drawn tube.

Electric Resistance Welded (ERW) Tube
ERW is the most economical and readily available type of mechanical tuning. It is produced by taking a flat bar of steel and rolling it into a tube shape (picture rolling up a newspaper - but without any overlap) and then welding the seam - by, you guessed it - electric resistance - hence the name. Electric resistance welding is somewhat like a long, continuous spot weld. It's often computer controlled and extremely consistent. ERW is normally SAE 1010 (for wall thickness < 16 ga) or SAE 1020. ERW tube comes in 2 flavours:

Hot Rolled ERW (HREW)
HREW is rolled into a tube at elevated temperatures, usually way above room temperature. This produces a tubing that is more malleable and therefore easier to form but that is also not as strong, is supplied covered with scale, and not as uniform in dimension as cold rolled. It is also quite a bit cheaper than cold rolled.

Cold Rolled ERW (CREW)
CREW is manufactured by a process in which a steel bar is rolled into a tube and the seam welded, usually at room temperature. Compared to hot rolled, CREW is stronger - (greater yield strength) - because of the improvement in the crystal lattice structure from improved grain size, shape, and orientation imparted by being worked at cold (room) temperatures), straighter, has a much smoother and more uniform surface finish, and is made to much tighter, more consistent dimensions. It is the best economical choice for tube work, and because of the better surface finish and tighter dimensional tolerances it is much nicer to work with than HREW.

Drawn Over Mandrel (DOM)
Strong and well-finished DOM is an electric resistance welded tube tested for soundness of weld and drawn through a die and over a mandrel. This process imparts significantly improved mechanical properties to the tube, due to the cold working process. It is considered a high quality tube, and is normally constructed from SAE 1020 or 1026 steel. Note that, technically DOM refers to the process by which the tube is finished after having started as an ERW tube. Technically, DOM is not a type of steel tube, but rather a process. As so often happen though - in common use the term has become accepted to mean a specific type of tubing rather than a process. In this case, when people say "DOM" they normally mean an ERW tube drawn over a mandrel at (close to) room temperature and made from SAE 1020 steel. It is normally drawn to O.D. and I.D. dimensions. Here is what the Steel Tube Institute of North America has to say about DOM:

The DOM Manufacturing Process

The manufacturing process for DOM tubing begins with coils of steel, which are slit to the proper width for the desired tube size. The strip is cold formed and passed through an electric resistance welder which joins the edges together, under pressure, to complete the tubular shape. After testing the weld's integrity, the tubing is cut to length for further processing.

The cold-drawing process creates a uniform, precision product with substantially improved tolerances, surface finish and tensile strength, increased hardness and good machinability. In this process, the tube is cleaned and annealed, and one end of each length is squeezed to a point so it can be gripped by the drawing mechanism. The tube is then drawn through one or more dies and over mandrels. This reduces the diameter of the tube and thins its walls to the required dimensions in a controlled fashion to provide the qualities desired in the finished product. Metallurgically, drawing improves the tube's concentricity, tensile strength, hardness and machinability. Close dimensional accuracy is achieved through tight control of both outside and inside diameters.[10]

Alloy Steel Tubing
Is not really a different type of tubing, as it will be manufactured by one of the above described methods, usually by extrusion, but from alloy steel instead of mild steel. It is generally available in either the normalized or the annealed condition. Commonly referred to as chrom-moly tube - it has very strict welding process and post-welding heat treatment and stress relieving requirements. It is my opinion that it can (should) only be TIG or Oxy-Acetylene welded, and then only if proper stress relieving will be done post welding. Sure people MIG weld it all the time, and you can safely do so - BUT - what you have in the end is a superior tube with an inferior weld joint which reduces the overall strength of whatever you fabricated to the weakest link (the weld in this case) and so you have a very expensive structure that is no better overall than one made from 1020 DOM.

Exact chemical content, heat treatment, physical properties, production method and therefore mechanical properties will vary from one supplier to the next, even for seemingly similarly named products - the wise fabricator double-checks all assumptions carefully before building anything. Different suppliers will also have available different products. For example, Ryerson-Tull, one of North America's largest suppliers list in their catalogue of steel tubing between 1" and 2' OD, the following types (not all available in all sizes):

CDS, HFS, DOM, ERW, and a proprietary product they call "Ry-Star 512 Extra".

Many suppliers will have such special proprietary products - you will have to check with your supplier for its proprietary product properties and specs.

One thing that has to be watched out for is that the industry bends a lot of carbon steel tubing to make lots of things and so most carbon steel tubing is available in the annealed condition�woe to him who does not detect it before he builds the part. I have a very good friend who once got an entire roll cage cut, bent, fitted and tacked before he realized that his merry men were working with annealed boiler tube. The other thing that we don't want is "free machining tubing." I currently use round carbon steel DOM mechanical tubing for most things other than suspension links (there I use E4130N and stress relieve and heat treat after welding). For roll cages I use either 4130 or DOM 1020. I do not want to know about hot-finished tubing because I do not want to clean it. I am old enough to remember the days when English ERW tubing was liable to split along the weld seam. As a matter of principle (or, possibly, stubbornness) I do not use ERW or butt welded tube on the race car; although, since it is a lot cheaper, I use it all over the trailer and the shop.[11]

My personal mantra on the subject of steel tubing choice for 4x4s and rock crawler's is:

"You can't go wrong with 1020 DOM!"
#66 RC46
Perhaps you can get some input from the man himself? He can be reached here: nhossack@volcanocorp.com
#67 Tightwad
Looks like fun! I wish I had the technical drawing skills you guys have (or the time/energy to develop them).
#68 Pete McCrary

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 28 October 2009 - 08:55 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 28 October 2009 - 07:24 PM, said:

Whenever I use 4130, I gas weld it using a copper coated mild steel rod.


You mean ER70S? ;)


The tube says RG-45. Is that the spec of the rod?

Yes/no - good/bad?

You guys are teaching me things.
#69 Pete McCrary

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 28 October 2009 - 08:55 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 28 October 2009 - 07:24 PM, said:

Whenever I use 4130, I gas weld it using a copper coated mild steel rod.


You mean ER70S? ;)


Seb:

From what I've been able to research, ER70S is a designation for TIG welding rod while RG45 is a designation for oxy/acetlyene welding rod. I found something over on the AirGas website called RG60 which is suppose to be stronger that RG45.

http://www.airgas.co...d=7000000000370

Pete
#70 SEBSPEED

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 29 October 2009 - 12:03 PM, said:

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 28 October 2009 - 08:55 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 28 October 2009 - 07:24 PM, said:

Whenever I use 4130, I gas weld it using a copper coated mild steel rod.


You mean ER70S? ;)


Seb:

From what I've been able to research, ER70S is a designation for TIG welding rod while RG45 is a designation for oxy/acetlyene welding rod. I found something over on the AirGas website called RG60 which is suppose to be stronger that RG45.

http://www.airgas.co...d=7000000000370

Pete


Crap! Sorry Pete, I misread the part where you said 'gas'... :blush: I was thinking TIG. I have yet to use a torch to weld, I've only ever cut & heated parts with oxy/ace.
#71 redmarque Thread starter
My! One day without electricity here and a whole page of thread appears!

Some good discussion too! :fing02:
#72 shrek

[image: View Post]redmarque, on 28 October 2009 - 03:34 PM, said:

[image: View Post]shrek, on 28 October 2009 - 03:23 PM, said:

I think radiators from a TL1000R may be just the ticket for you. It is a 2 piece unit which is designed for the upper to be tucked into the void between the forward bank of cylinders and the steering head, while the lower sits below the forward valve cover and angles aft. the two units bolt together. Might be just the packaging solution you're seeking.


Top man! :fing02: that could work well. Any chance you could have a measure up on your TLR? :cool:


Afraid not, I won't see my Tiller until Christmas time. I will ask someone on the TL forum to check. I'll let you know as soon as I hear back.
#73 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]shrek, on 29 October 2009 - 01:39 PM, said:

Afraid not, I won't see my Tiller until Christmas time. I will ask someone on the TL forum to check. I'll let you know as soon as I hear back.

Cheers shrek. Always liked the TL1000S+R. nice stompy motor... sound the business with racecans on too.
#74 Pete McCrary
Seb:

You've got to learn how to weld/braze with an oxy/acetylene set-up! Affordable for guys like us and probably the handiest skill in the world to have. I'll get a TIG set-up after I win the lottery. I think it is also a great skill to have to prep you for TIG & MIG welding. I go months sometimes without ever touching my bottles, but there are so many times when it is the only solution to a problem.

Like several articles I read on aircraft airframe sites say, how do you think they welded airplanes together before TIG & MIG came along? TIG and MIG are just faster versions of the same process.

Pete
#75 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]RC46, on 28 October 2009 - 09:07 PM, said:

Perhaps you can get some input from the man himself? He can be reached here: nhossack@volcanocorp.com


Hi RC46, Are you lucky enough to know Norman H personally?
I would like to have a conversation with him but only announced/introduced (call me old fashioned) :blush:
#76 SEBSPEED

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 29 October 2009 - 01:59 PM, said:

Seb:

You've got to learn how to weld/braze with an oxy/acetylene set-up! Affordable for guys like us and probably the handiest skill in the world to have. I'll get a TIG set-up after I win the lottery. I think it is also a great skill to have to prep you for TIG & MIG welding. I go months sometimes without ever touching my bottles, but there are so many times when it is the only solution to a problem.

Like several articles I read on aircraft airframe sites say, how do you think they welded airplanes together before TIG & MIG came along? TIG and MIG are just faster versions of the same process.

Pete


Well, I'm already certified to TIG weld aircraft aluminum and stainless, dabbled with titanium, and I've taken a MIG class and have a pretty good handle on that along with owning a small POS 110v wire feed welder. I wouldn't mind owning/learning to use a torch rig, but I'd rather put the $400+ towards a used TIG machine. Onwards & upwards baby!! :biggrin: Right now any more equipment than I have is a bit unreachable, so I'm going to keep my goals high.
#77 FactoryRC46

[image: View Post]redmarque, on 29 October 2009 - 02:01 PM, said:

[image: View Post]RC46, on 28 October 2009 - 09:07 PM, said:

Perhaps you can get some input from the man himself? He can be reached here: nhossack@volcanocorp.com


Hi RC46, Are you lucky enough to know Norman H personally?
I would like to have a conversation with him but only announced/introduced (call me old fashioned) :blush:


Hi There, I logged in as a new member RC46 because I brain-farted my original info. But I've managed to scoop it up - So I'm back again as FactoryRC46.

Yes, I do know Norman Hossack personally, we have the same employer here in Sacramento, CA. A native of Rhodesia, he is a very interesting man with quite a history in motrocycles and motorsport. Did you know he's a former Isle of Mann competitor from serval decades ago? Or that he has had past involvment in LaMans management/planning?

Several manufacturers and the British military have shown interest in his front suspension design and he has developed the design for their needs. Only BMW chose to adopt it in their Paralever scheme, and that was only immediately after Norman had exhausted his resources to defend his patent. Unfortunate.

He does have two daily rides, a Ducati ST3, and a BMW K100 that has been fitted with a Hossack front end that is constructed from formed/welded thinwall sheet; I'll get a picture and attach. He's put tens of thousands on miles on it and it has proven very durable. And, one of the key points is how much weight savings is offered - you may be going over-stout on your version. BTW - The Hossack is being used by high mountain bikes also.

Message me your contact info and I'll see about an intro. Not sure of his feelings given the history with his design and the outcome with BMW.

Cheers,

FactoryRC46
#78 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]FactoryRC46, on 29 October 2009 - 03:00 PM, said:


Hi There, I logged in as a new member RC46 because I brain-farted my original info. But I've managed to scoop it up - So I'm back again as FactoryRC46.

Yes, I do know Norman Hossack personally, we have the same employer here in Sacramento, CA. A native of Rhodesia, he is a very interesting man with quite a history in motrocycles and motorsport. Did you know he's a former Isle of Mann competitor from serval decades ago? Or that he has had past involvment in LaMans management/planning?

Several manufacturers and the British military have shown interest in his front suspension design and he has developed the design for their needs. Only BMW chose to adopt it in their Paralever scheme, and that was only immediately after Norman had exhausted his resources to defend his patent. Unfortunate.

He does have two daily rides, a Ducati ST3, and a BMW K100 that has been fitted with a Hossack front end that is constructed from formed/welded thinwall sheet; I'll get a picture and attach. He's put tens of thousands on miles on it and it has proven very durable. And, one of the key points is how much weight savings is offered - you may be going over-stout on your version. BTW - The Hossack is being used by high mountain bikes also.

Message me your contact info and I'll see about an intro. Not sure of his feelings given the history with his design and the outcome with BMW.

Cheers,

FactoryRC46


Thanks RC Some how I thought you'd know him. afterall you knew his work email address!

Yes i've done a bit of research on him and looked at quite a few of his designs. For the others reading this thread might be interested in seeing the MOD bike and his BMW conversion on youtube:
Hossack on youtube

Also the Whyte Mountain bike PRST series which I think is based on his ideas:
[image: Posted Image]

I found it a real shame that BMW stuffed him over with regards to his patents, but that's big corporations for you... :angry:
The BMW 'Duolever' design doesn't do his system justice either. most test riders say it's 'numb'

I'd be honoured to have Norman's input or whatever he can spare, or if he's fedup/had enough then will undersand.

I'll message you my details in a min.

Many thanks, Red.
#79 SEBSPEED
Well how cool is that! :cool:
#80 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 29 October 2009 - 03:45 PM, said:

Well how cool is that! :cool:


What the Whyte PRST 4? yeah I want one! You can't pedal standing up (honk) very well but they 'float' over anything rough x-country. have a look at the new whyte bike's rear quad-link/tara swingarm works. Whyte was a ex-F1 benetton suspension designer. Done rear's for Marin bikes too. :offtopic:
#81 SEBSPEED

[image: View Post]redmarque, on 29 October 2009 - 04:03 PM, said:

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 29 October 2009 - 03:45 PM, said:

Well how cool is that! :cool:


What the Whyte PRST 4? yeah I want one! You can't pedal standing up (honk) very well but they 'float' over anything rough x-country. have a look at the new whyte bike's rear quad-link/tara swingarm works. Whyte was a ex-F1 benetton suspension designer. Done rear's for Marin bikes too. :offtopic:


No, how cool is it that by being a member of VFRD, you now have a contact with the creator of the Hossack fork! :beer:

The MB is ok, bet it does better in the rough stuff than my 1980's Rock Shock-equipped Trek... :rolleyes:
#82 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 29 October 2009 - 06:48 PM, said:

No, how cool is it that by being a member of VFRD, you now have a contact with the creator of the Hossack fork! :beer:


Very, Mr Hossack is a living legend in my book.. Here's hoping he's receptive to some vfrdiscussion!
#83 Pete McCrary

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 29 October 2009 - 02:21 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 29 October 2009 - 01:59 PM, said:

Seb:

You've got to learn how to weld/braze with an oxy/acetylene set-up! Affordable for guys like us and probably the handiest skill in the world to have. I'll get a TIG set-up after I win the lottery. I think it is also a great skill to have to prep you for TIG & MIG welding. I go months sometimes without ever touching my bottles, but there are so many times when it is the only solution to a problem.

Like several articles I read on aircraft airframe sites say, how do you think they welded airplanes together before TIG & MIG came along? TIG and MIG are just faster versions of the same process.

Pete


Well, I'm already certified to TIG weld aircraft aluminum and stainless, dabbled with titanium, and I've taken a MIG class and have a pretty good handle on that along with owning a small POS 110v wire feed welder. I wouldn't mind owning/learning to use a torch rig, but I'd rather put the $400+ towards a used TIG machine. Onwards & upwards baby!! :biggrin: Right now any more equipment than I have is a bit unreachable, so I'm going to keep my goals high.


Do you build rocket ships or something for a living?

Cheapest new TIG rig I have found is about $3500.
#84 SEBSPEED

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 30 October 2009 - 05:24 PM, said:

Do you build rocket ships or something for a living?

Cheapest new TIG rig I have found is about $3500.


Not rockets, just parts for helicopters, jets & passenger planes. :biggrin:

Check this out, this is the one I want. We have one in our weld shop, and it's a great little machine. Welds as nice as from the big machines. it's not liquid cooled, but that's no biggie as you & I won't be making any ten foot long welds any time soon(I don't think?)

http://cgi.ebay.com/...=item53ddacc087
#85 redmarque Thread starter
I've got one of these for my Tig setup. It's only a light duty 150 amp, but enough for what I use it for.
http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item56365ca279

Bought a WP-20 small head watercooled torch for it too. Watercooler is made from a pair of honda firestorm Rad's and a central heating pump from ebay... works well. :goofy:
#86 JamieDaugherty
Man, I really need to learn how to TIG weld (aluminum). I was looking over a guy's shoulder last week and it didn't look hard. People who are good at stuff often make it look easy, I'm sure that I would screw it up.

Redmarque - do you do your own welding? I'd say you'd have to be awful confident in your ability to make a motorcycle frame. That first ride is a leap of faith!
#87 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 31 October 2009 - 09:29 AM, said:

Redmarque - do you do your own welding? I'd say you'd have to be awful confident in your ability to make a motorcycle frame. That first ride is a leap of faith!


I did evening classes to learn MIG and Gas(Oxy/Acetylene) a few years ago.. (Gas welding is a beautiful art form, I see why the old guy's still love it)
Paid the guy who welded the last frame for me to show me the technique of Tig. Just started welding small pieces in steel. it seams simular but different going from Gas to Tig btw. I haven't done much with ali but like riding it's practice, practice - and more practice.

Yes, I remember climbing aboard hossackviffer mk1 with butterfly's in my stomach... thinking "what have I done!" :goofy:
#88 redmarque Thread starter
Modelled the R1 radial calipers and mounting location.

Changed the fork width to get the correct caliper/disc offset of 22mm, plus spacing for the 296mm disc diameter.

[image: Posted Image]

Still some modelling left to do... :angry:
1.Airbox
2.Tank
#89 douglasthecook
What you're doing is incredible!!! And here I was all stressed out about trying to make my RC-51 tail section a bolt-on mod(which it is btw...). Anyway, awesome work you're doing, and I'm really digging the engineering parts especially, and how you're coming up with fixes!!!
#90 SEBSPEED
Give any thought to gusseting the inside of the V in the forks? Something to brace against the braking forces? I'd be interested to see if that makes a difference or not in stress analysis.
#91 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 02 November 2009 - 01:08 PM, said:

Give any thought to gusseting the inside of the V in the forks? Something to brace against the braking forces? I'd be interested to see if that makes a difference or not in stress analysis.

Yes Seb, there's serveral places that will probably require guesseting.
Thought this would be a solution to the radial brake mount area?

[image: Posted Image]
#92 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]douglasthecook, on 02 November 2009 - 01:06 PM, said:

What you're doing is incredible!!! And here I was all stressed out about trying to make my RC-51 tail section a bolt-on mod(which it is btw...). Anyway, awesome work you're doing, and I'm really digging the engineering parts especially, and how you're coming up with fixes!!!

Thanks Dude..  Really apreciate the encouragement! some of this design is stressing me out too... wish I was an engineer!   :biggrin:
#93 douglasthecook

[image: View Post]redmarque, on 02 November 2009 - 01:57 PM, said:

[image: View Post]douglasthecook, on 02 November 2009 - 01:06 PM, said:

What you're doing is incredible!!! And here I was all stressed out about trying to make my RC-51 tail section a bolt-on mod(which it is btw...). Anyway, awesome work you're doing, and I'm really digging the engineering parts especially, and how you're coming up with fixes!!!

Thanks Dude..  Really apreciate the encouragement! some of this design is stressing me out too... wish I was an engineer!   :biggrin:

Well...you know what they say about necessity and all that. However whay I did, and definitely what you're doing isn't necessity, but the constant presence of tinkeritis. I just can't leave good enough along, although I'm nowhere near this brave!!! Keep it up, and have a patent laywer on speed dial!!!
#94 Pete McCrary

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 31 October 2009 - 09:02 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 30 October 2009 - 05:24 PM, said:

Do you build rocket ships or something for a living?

Cheapest new TIG rig I have found is about $3500.

Not rockets, just parts for helicopters, jets & passenger planes. :rolleyes:

Check this out, this is the one I want. We have one in our weld shop, and it's a great little machine. Welds as nice as from the big machines. it's not liquid cooled, but that's no biggie as you & I won't be making any ten foot long welds any time soon(I don't think?)

http://cgi.ebay.com/...=item53ddacc087

Never heard of Thermal Arc. I can't believe that you can get Lincoln TIG machines at Wally World.
#95 Pete McCrary
Probably not telling you anything you don't know already, but I'm sure you're aware that some parts need to be machined before welding, some parts need to be machined after welding.

Fun is going to be figuring out which is which.
#96 rdguy
PM sent - I think!

Glenn

[image: View Post]redmarque, on 22 October 2009 - 02:58 AM, said:


You mention that you've built an FFE before? Any chance we can see pictures/designs of it? what was it like to ride?

As to the Chassis list becoming a forum - that's really something i'd like to see (though haven't suggested on list) I would be seroiusly willing to help run one, if the list would agree? I believe a reliable bunch of admin volunteers is the key to HS's success.
PM me if you'd like to discuss further.


#97 JamieDaugherty

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 02 November 2009 - 04:00 PM, said:

Never heard of Thermal Arc. I can't believe that you can get Lincoln TIG machines at Wally World.

Tried my hand at TIG welding today.  Just walked up to the one in the Maintenace area and started blasting away.  Put a really nice bead on a practice piece, then tried it on the real thing that I was working on.  It turned out horrible.  Oh well, I hoping that I could be lazy and not have to practice but it appears to not be the case.
#98 SEBSPEED

[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 03 November 2009 - 08:28 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Pete McCrary, on 02 November 2009 - 04:00 PM, said:

Never heard of Thermal Arc. I can't believe that you can get Lincoln TIG machines at Wally World.

Tried my hand at TIG welding today.  Just walked up to the one in the Maintenace area and started blasting away.  Put a really nice bead on a practice piece, then tried it on the real thing that I was working on.  It turned out horrible.  Oh well, I hoping that I could be lazy and not have to practice but it appears to not be the case.

Sorry to continue the O/T, but, do you at least have someone knowledgeable that you can reference? Little things like gas flow, electrode size/shape/type, filler rod type per material, ac/dc setting, frequency start, etc, all play a huge role in how the weld turns out - nevermind the amp setting.

Tell me what you're trying to weld and I'll try and give you some pointers. PM might be better so we don't keep clogging up Red's thread...

It took me about a month to make a perfect 6" long fillet weld on .032" stainless sheet(has to pass xray and other tests to qualify for aircraft cert), then on the 1st day of the 5th week I made a passing weld on .040" aluminum. Funny that, they say aluminum is harder!
#99 The Phantom

[image: View Post]redmarque, on 29 October 2009 - 03:31 PM, said:

Also the Whyte Mountain bike PRST series which I think is based on his ideas:
[image: Posted Image]

Wow, haven't seen that - looks great. Not to hijack the welding topic, but my own modest interest in these crazy front ends is fueled by a Girvin Vector fork that I picked up at a garage sale for $5 and want to fit to an old school MTB someday, looks like this:

[image: Posted Image]

[image: Posted Image]

I'd never seen these before I found mine, either. My 'working' crazy front end is the Headshok on my Cannondale Super V, I love it...

Enjoying Build II, Red, although I still can't believe that Build I is already done, dusted and consigned to the scrapheap!   :blink:
#100 JamieDaugherty

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 03 November 2009 - 08:34 PM, said:

Sorry to continue the O/T, but, do you at least have someone knowledgeable that you can reference? Little things like gas flow, electrode size/shape/type, filler rod type per material, ac/dc setting, frequency start, etc, all play a huge role in how the weld turns out - nevermind the amp setting.


I had a expert looking over my shoulder when I ran the test bead.  He said "There, you got it" and walked away.  That when I started having problems.  No worries, I lack this little thing called 'talent' anyway.  Another reason I'm so impressed with what Redmarque can do!
#101 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]The Phantom, on 04 November 2009 - 06:03 AM, said:

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Nice girder fork! Reminds me of the Vincent Rapide and Black Shadow. There's a R1 somewhere on the net with a setup like that but fork legs are machined from billet Ali.
[image: Posted Image]

Quote

Enjoying Build II, Red, although I still can't believe that Build I is already done, dusted and consigned to the scrapheap!   :dry:

Believe me after all the time and effort I put into Mk1 it was a big decision to start again; I couldn't bare to look at the errors and compromises in the chassis design anymore... I've taken it as a great learning experience :biggrin:
#102 SEBSPEED

[image: View Post]redmarque, on 04 November 2009 - 06:11 PM, said:

Believe me after all the time and effort I put into Mk1 it was a big decision to start again; I couldn't bare to look at the errors and compromises in the chassis design anymore... I've taken it as a great learning experience :biggrin:

Big kudos to you for that!!
#103 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 04 November 2009 - 06:48 AM, said:

I had a expert looking over my shoulder when I ran the test bead.  He said "There, you got it" and walked away.  That when I started having problems.  No worries, I lack this little thing called 'talent' anyway.  Another reason I'm so impressed with what Redmarque can do!

I don't think you lack 'talent' I've been looking at the yokes and stuff on your website!   :biggrin:    :dry:

I think what makes Aluminium different to weld is it's ability to disipate heat and it's lower melting point than steel.
#104 JamieDaugherty

[image: View Post]redmarque, on 04 November 2009 - 06:24 PM, said:

I don't think you lack 'talent' I've been looking at the yokes and stuff on your website!   :wheel:    :blush:

Thanks man, I really appreciate that!

Back on topic: any idea of how much money you will have invested in this project?  I'm sure there is a lot of time too, but sometimes that's more difficult to determine.  I think trying to quanitfy some numbers would help others gain a better appreciation for exactly what you are doing here.
#105 tok tokkie
That is a very old Vincent with ordinary girder forks.

[image: Posted Image]
I had a Vincent Comet like this.  Those are 'Girdraulic' forks.  The fork blade is a big aluminium forging with the springs in the narrow tube behind.

The Whyte forks are very interesting because they don't have the scissors linkage.  The top link is like a standard girder fork - the top link is steered by the handlebars.  The lower link is like a Hossack.  The suspension forces will be carried by the lower link so those loads will not go through the steering bearings.  The brake loads will not go through the shock so there will be little front end dive (depends on angle of the pivot points).  Would it not be simpler to do it like Whyte?
#106 kaldek

[image: View Post]The Phantom, on 04 November 2009 - 06:03 AM, said:


[image: Posted Image]

Good lord, the trail on that MTB front end is nuts!!!
#107 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 04 November 2009 - 09:38 PM, said:

Back on topic: any idea of how much money you will have invested in this project?  I'm sure there is a lot of time too, but sometimes that's more difficult to determine.  I think trying to quanitfy some numbers would help others gain a better appreciation for exactly what you are doing here.

OK, I might shock myself having to add up the rough build costs.

20k mile 5th Gen Engine, throttle bodies,loom, clutch master cylinder: �300
ECU: �30
Coils: �14
6th Gen Tank & fuel pump: �40
Airbox: �25
R1 brake calipers �80
R1 radial master: �80
SS Swingarm/rear wheel �150
CBR600F4 front wheel �80
Braking wavy front disks: �150
Braking wavy rear: �75
Tyres: �200
Front axle �20
rear swingarm axle: �20
5th gen seat: �20
CBR 1000F oil cooler �12
footpeg hangers:�25
Ducati 916 radiator: �15
Earl's Stainless brake/clutch line connectors/Oil cooler lines and ends: �300
Silicon hoses and stainless clips: �100
Stainless bolts:?
Steel and tubing �150
CNC milled parts on Mk1 including materials: �1750
Welding: �750
obviously there are other incidental parts/cost not included here!

For me the good thing was not having to payout for everything at once. (spreads the cost of having a bike unlike anything else!)
and OK I could have gone out a bought a bike secondhand, but it wouldn't have been a challenge/hobby/sanity keeper.
When I originally started my goal was to build my 'own' bike; also I wanted to see what these 'funny front ends' are like to ride and a hossack system 'seemed' the simplest to build.
#108 JamieDaugherty
That total really doesn't look too bad.  The CNC parts are the biggest chunk, which I can respect.  What impresses me the most is the dedication of time that it takes to think out, try, revise, try again, etc. a project like this.
#109 FactoryRC46
Thanks RC Some how I thought you'd know him. afterall you knew his work email address!

Yes i've done a bit of research on him and looked at quite a few of his designs. For the others reading this thread might be interested in seeing the MOD bike and his BMW conversion on youtube:
[url="http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?as_sitesearch=youtube.com&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&hs=Epb&q=hossackdesign+site:youtube.com&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=I_fpStCOJJeRjAeIsqijDQ&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBAQqwQwAA#"]Hossack on youtube[/url]

Also the Whyte Mountain bike PRST series which I think is based on his ideas:


I found it a real shame that BMW stuffed him over with regards to his patents, but that's big corporations for you... :biggrin:
The BMW 'Duolever' design doesn't do his system justice either. most test riders say it's 'numb'

I'd be honoured to have Norman's input or whatever he can spare, or if he's fedup/had enough then will undersand.

I'll message you my details in a min.

Many thanks, Red.
[/quote]

Hello Red,
Looking at the youtube link of Norman, there is no need to attach a photo - that same BMW is his current daily ride. I spoke with him on Tuesday and he agreed to being in touch with you. Not sure if he wants his work email used moving forward but use it to start - he's not part of the VFR Discussion.

-Chris
#110 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]FactoryRC46, on 05 November 2009 - 03:54 PM, said:

Hello Red,
Looking at the youtube link of Norman, there is no need to attach a photo - that same BMW is his current daily ride. I spoke with him on Tuesday and he agreed to being in touch with you. Not sure if he wants his work email used moving forward but use it to start - he's not part of the VFR Discussion.

-Chris

Many thanks for suggesting contact with Norman and approaching him on my behalf for some input.
- I'll put together an introductory email to him tomorrow.

Once again, I really apreciate your help.

Red
#111 tok tokkie

[image: View Post]kaldek, on 05 November 2009 - 03:36 AM, said:

[image: View Post]The Phantom, on 04 November 2009 - 06:03 AM, said:


[image: Posted Image]

Good lord, the trail on that MTB front end is nuts!!!
It is nothing out of the ordinary.  The trail is the distance between the centerline of the steering axis & where the tire touches the ground.  In this case the uprights of the suspension are unusually far forward so the wheel axle has to be moved well behind them to restore the conventional trail dimension.
#112 redmarque Thread starter
Just sent an introductory email to Norman Hossack...
#113 Beck

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 28 October 2009 - 09:06 PM, said:

I went on Google to get you some info on seamless DOM tubing and found this...

Freshly plagiarized from a plagiarism on a 4x4 forum thread- (sorry for the length, but very informative!)


Quote

Steel Tubing

It is impossible to go into details about every type and shape and grade of steel product available or that we might be interested in. There are far too many, and availability will vary greatly depending on location and manufacturer/supplier.

That said, one of the most often used, most often asked about, and most often misunderstood products we use is the venerable round steel tubing.

Round steel tube is commonly available in a number of industry standard sizes. For an idea of the common industry sizes (inside diameter (ID), outside diameter (OD), and wall thickness) browse the supply catalogue of your local supplier or check the Pirate4x4.com tech database HERE and especially HERE.

Note that round steel mechanical tubing is NORMALLY ordered and supplied based on a specified OD and wall thickness. The ID is the result of these former 2 specs. There are however some exceptions to this - most notably in true seamless tubing.

Here are some Flash� graphics of the different steel tube forming processes that I snagged from the excellent Steel Tube Institute of North America website.

Contnuous (butt welded) pipe process.
The continuous process produces a full range of pipe sizes from only a few different widths of skelp. The coils of skelp, or strip, are fed into the mill and their ends welded together to provide a continuous flow. The strip passes through a pre-heater and into a furnace. The heated strip is shaped into an arc of about 270� in a forming stand before passing into the welding stand. There a nozzle applies oxygen to the edges to further heat them as they are pressed and welded together. The pipe's OD and wall thickness are reduced in a stretch-reducing mill. Pipe is then cut to length, reduced to the required size in a sizing mill and water-cooled before being straightened. It is then ready for finishing


Typical Electric Resistance Welded tube process
Steel strip is unwound from coils and side-trimmed to control width and condition the edges for welding. The strip then passes through a series of contoured rolls which progressively cold-form it into a circular shape. The edges are forced together under pressure and welded by heating the steel to temperatures between 2200� F and 2600� F using copper contacts or coil induction. Weld flash is removed from the the inside and outside surfaces of the newly-formed pipe, and the weld zone is heat treated to ensure homogeneity between the base metal and weld. The weld is subjected to in-line nondestructive testing, and the tube then passes through a series of sizing rolls to attain its precise finished diameter. It is then straightened and cut to the desired finished length.


DOM tube being constructed, starting as ERW and then being drawn over a mandrel.
The manufacturing process for DOM tubing begins with coils of steel, which are slit to the proper width for the desired tube size. The strip is cold formed and passed through an electric resistance welder which joins the edges together, under pressure, to complete the tubular shape. After testing the weld's integrity, the tubing is cut to length for further processing

Seamless tube construction
The production process for seamless tube begins by heating a steel billet to about 2250� F. The red-hot billet is rotated and drawn by rolls over a piercing rod, or mandrel. The action of the rolls causes the metal to flow over and about the mandrel to create a hollow tube shell. After reheating, the shell is moved forward over a support bar and is hot-rolled in several reducing/sizing stands to the desired wall thickness and diameter. The tube, which has grown significantly in length during the piercing and sizing processes, is then cut into sections and conveyed across a cooling bed to cool slowly in the air. It then receives whatever finishing processes are needed to meet customer requirements.


Steel tubing is usually supplied in one of the following forms:

Seamless Tube.
This is expensive and specialized stuff. It IS NOT the commonly used (and misreferenced) DOM tubing, as DOM tubing does indeed have a seam (albeit, almost invisible - more details below). True seamless tubing is uncommon in 4x4 and automotive use. It is seamless because it is manufactured by a process know as "extrusion" where a solid bar of steel is pierced down the center with a die, at unthinkable pressures, to form a tube. The process looks similar to how hollow pasta (macaroni etc) is made. There are 2 sub-types of seamless tube:

Cold Drawn Seamless (CDS) Tube is normally drawn to O.D. and I.D. dimensions and produced to standard dimensional tolerances (this differs from most other types of tubing except DOM) . It is normally made from SAE 1018 and is considered good quality.
Hot Finished Seamless (HFS) Tube is lower in cost than cold drawn and most applicable where precise dimensions and surface quality are of secondary importance. It is manufactured to O.D. and wall dimensions from SAE 1026 steel and is scaly, less dependable and not as strong as cold drawn tube.

Electric Resistance Welded (ERW) Tube
ERW is the most economical and readily available type of mechanical tuning. It is produced by taking a flat bar of steel and rolling it into a tube shape (picture rolling up a newspaper - but without any overlap) and then welding the seam - by, you guessed it - electric resistance - hence the name. Electric resistance welding is somewhat like a long, continuous spot weld. It's often computer controlled and extremely consistent. ERW is normally SAE 1010 (for wall thickness < 16 ga) or SAE 1020. ERW tube comes in 2 flavours:

Hot Rolled ERW (HREW)
HREW is rolled into a tube at elevated temperatures, usually way above room temperature. This produces a tubing that is more malleable and therefore easier to form but that is also not as strong, is supplied covered with scale, and not as uniform in dimension as cold rolled. It is also quite a bit cheaper than cold rolled.

Cold Rolled ERW (CREW)
CREW is manufactured by a process in which a steel bar is rolled into a tube and the seam welded, usually at room temperature. Compared to hot rolled, CREW is stronger - (greater yield strength) - because of the improvement in the crystal lattice structure from improved grain size, shape, and orientation imparted by being worked at cold (room) temperatures), straighter, has a much smoother and more uniform surface finish, and is made to much tighter, more consistent dimensions. It is the best economical choice for tube work, and because of the better surface finish and tighter dimensional tolerances it is much nicer to work with than HREW.

Drawn Over Mandrel (DOM)
Strong and well-finished DOM is an electric resistance welded tube tested for soundness of weld and drawn through a die and over a mandrel. This process imparts significantly improved mechanical properties to the tube, due to the cold working process. It is considered a high quality tube, and is normally constructed from SAE 1020 or 1026 steel. Note that, technically DOM refers to the process by which the tube is finished after having started as an ERW tube. Technically, DOM is not a type of steel tube, but rather a process. As so often happen though - in common use the term has become accepted to mean a specific type of tubing rather than a process. In this case, when people say "DOM" they normally mean an ERW tube drawn over a mandrel at (close to) room temperature and made from SAE 1020 steel. It is normally drawn to O.D. and I.D. dimensions. Here is what the Steel Tube Institute of North America has to say about DOM:

The DOM Manufacturing Process

The manufacturing process for DOM tubing begins with coils of steel, which are slit to the proper width for the desired tube size. The strip is cold formed and passed through an electric resistance welder which joins the edges together, under pressure, to complete the tubular shape. After testing the weld's integrity, the tubing is cut to length for further processing.

The cold-drawing process creates a uniform, precision product with substantially improved tolerances, surface finish and tensile strength, increased hardness and good machinability. In this process, the tube is cleaned and annealed, and one end of each length is squeezed to a point so it can be gripped by the drawing mechanism. The tube is then drawn through one or more dies and over mandrels. This reduces the diameter of the tube and thins its walls to the required dimensions in a controlled fashion to provide the qualities desired in the finished product. Metallurgically, drawing improves the tube's concentricity, tensile strength, hardness and machinability. Close dimensional accuracy is achieved through tight control of both outside and inside diameters.[10]

Alloy Steel Tubing
Is not really a different type of tubing, as it will be manufactured by one of the above described methods, usually by extrusion, but from alloy steel instead of mild steel. It is generally available in either the normalized or the annealed condition. Commonly referred to as chrom-moly tube - it has very strict welding process and post-welding heat treatment and stress relieving requirements. It is my opinion that it can (should) only be TIG or Oxy-Acetylene welded, and then only if proper stress relieving will be done post welding. Sure people MIG weld it all the time, and you can safely do so - BUT - what you have in the end is a superior tube with an inferior weld joint which reduces the overall strength of whatever you fabricated to the weakest link (the weld in this case) and so you have a very expensive structure that is no better overall than one made from 1020 DOM.

Exact chemical content, heat treatment, physical properties, production method and therefore mechanical properties will vary from one supplier to the next, even for seemingly similarly named products - the wise fabricator double-checks all assumptions carefully before building anything. Different suppliers will also have available different products. For example, Ryerson-Tull, one of North America's largest suppliers list in their catalogue of steel tubing between 1" and 2' OD, the following types (not all available in all sizes):

CDS, HFS, DOM, ERW, and a proprietary product they call "Ry-Star 512 Extra".

Many suppliers will have such special proprietary products - you will have to check with your supplier for its proprietary product properties and specs.

One thing that has to be watched out for is that the industry bends a lot of carbon steel tubing to make lots of things and so most carbon steel tubing is available in the annealed condition�woe to him who does not detect it before he builds the part. I have a very good friend who once got an entire roll cage cut, bent, fitted and tacked before he realized that his merry men were working with annealed boiler tube. The other thing that we don't want is "free machining tubing." I currently use round carbon steel DOM mechanical tubing for most things other than suspension links (there I use E4130N and stress relieve and heat treat after welding). For roll cages I use either 4130 or DOM 1020. I do not want to know about hot-finished tubing because I do not want to clean it. I am old enough to remember the days when English ERW tubing was liable to split along the weld seam. As a matter of principle (or, possibly, stubbornness) I do not use ERW or butt welded tube on the race car; although, since it is a lot cheaper, I use it all over the trailer and the shop.[11]

My personal mantra on the subject of steel tubing choice for 4x4s and rock crawler's is:

"You can't go wrong with 1020 DOM!"
Coming from steel racing bicycles background from my college days, much was made of CrMo (by Reynolds, Columbus, Ishiwata, Tange, Vitus...etc)  tubing for the best quality steel bicycle frames. Maganese steel alloys covering the middle part of the market and 1020 high carbon, high tensile, seamed steel tubing was the material expected for the cheapest "department store" bikes. I guess 1020 is certainly good enough when you are putting together frames or roll cages with many tubes that can help spread the loads, but the thinking in the bicycle frame builder's world was, you are depending on 3 main tubes for the bike frame's structure/stregnth plus you are trying to minimize weight as much as possible and compromises cannot be taken at the competition levels for safety and performance. I would think that a custom steel bicycle frame builder will cringe if he hears your mantra of "You can't go wrong with 1020 DOM!"
Doesn't Ducati also use CrMo seamless tubing for their bike frames, and shouldn't that be sort of the modern benchmark for building sportbike tube spaceframes if they do??
JMOs

Beck
95 VFR
#114 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]Beck, on 06 November 2009 - 03:53 PM, said:

Coming from steel racing bicycles background from my college days, much was made of CrMo (by Reynolds, Columbus, Ishiwata, Tange, Vitus...etc)  tubing for the best quality steel bicycle frames. Maganese steel alloys covering the middle part of the market and 1020 high carbon, high tensile, seamed steel tubing was the material expected for the cheapest "department store" bikes. I guess 1020 is certainly good enough when you are putting together frames or roll cages with many tubes that can help spread the loads, but the thinking in the bicycle frame builder's world was, you are depending on 3 main tubes for the bike frame's structure/stregnth plus you are trying to minimize weight as much as possible and compromises cannot be taken at the competition levels for safety and performance. I would think that a custom steel bicycle frame builder will cringe if he hears your mantra of "You can't go wrong with 1020 DOM!"
Doesn't Ducati also use CrMo seamless tubing for their bike frames, and shouldn't that be sort of the modern benchmark for building sportbike tube spaceframes if they do??
JMOs

Beck
95 VFR

Beck I agree with your opion on 1020 DOM tubing it's not suitable for motorcycle chassis.
ERW Electric resistance welded (seamed) and (DOM) Drawn Over Mandrel to increase it's tensile strength.
I believe that Ducati use 4130 for there production frames.
interesting facts:
Reynolds 753 tubing is heat treated 531!
531 Reynolds tubing was used on the legendary norton featherbed frames.
#115 Beck

[image: View Post]redmarque, on 06 November 2009 - 04:21 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Beck, on 06 November 2009 - 03:53 PM, said:

Coming from steel racing bicycles background from my college days, much was made of CrMo (by Reynolds, Columbus, Ishiwata, Tange, Vitus...etc)  tubing for the best quality steel bicycle frames. Maganese steel alloys covering the middle part of the market and 1020 high carbon, high tensile, seamed steel tubing was the material expected for the cheapest "department store" bikes. I guess 1020 is certainly good enough when you are putting together frames or roll cages with many tubes that can help spread the loads, but the thinking in the bicycle frame builder's world was, you are depending on 3 main tubes for the bike frame's structure/stregnth plus you are trying to minimize weight as much as possible and compromises cannot be taken at the competition levels for safety and performance. I would think that a custom steel bicycle frame builder will cringe if he hears your mantra of "You can't go wrong with 1020 DOM!"
Doesn't Ducati also use CrMo seamless tubing for their bike frames, and shouldn't that be sort of the modern benchmark for building sportbike tube spaceframes if they do??
JMOs

Beck
95 VFR

Beck I agree with your opion on 1020 DOM tubing it's not suitable for motorcycle chassis.
ERW Electric resistance welded (seamed) and (DOM) Drawn Over Mandrel to increase it's tensile strength.
I believe that Ducati use 4130 for there production frames.
interesting facts:
Reynolds 753 tubing is heat treated 531!
531 Reynolds tubing was used on the legendary norton featherbed frames.
Reynolds 531 tubing has had an illustrious history in sport and motorsport.
It was even used to build up the spaceframe on Richard Noble's Thrust SSC Land Speed record car in the 80's, which is a testament to how engineers trust the tubing's stregnth. Noble's LSR car wore the big "Reynolds TI" decal on it's nose with pride.
Another ineresting CrMo steel tubing brand is the French "Vitus". They actually came up with tubing even lighter than the much vaunted Reynolds 753 and 531SL tubing with their "Extra Legere Super Vitus 980" tubing. The tubing built up to bikes that challenges aluminum frames for lightness but still keeping the lively characteristics and stregnth of CrMo steel tubing.

Beck
95 VFR
#116 redmarque Thread starter
Been busy designing the fuel tank/airbox area.

[image: Posted Image]

The reasoning behind the flat surfaces is to avoid hand forming curved panels
Material will be 3mm 1050A Aluminium sheet.

Also raised the rear subframe - estimated seat height 820mm (i'm 6'2)
#117 SEBSPEED
3mm sheet?!? Holy cannoli!   :blink:
#118 JamieDaugherty
Wow, you're fabricating a tank too!?!?  You sure are a glutton!
#119 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 07 November 2009 - 08:21 PM, said:

3mm sheet?!? Holy cannoli!   :blink:

Too thick? 2mm then?
#120 redmarque Thread starter

[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 07 November 2009 - 10:31 PM, said:

Wow, you're fabricating a tank too!?!?  You sure are a glutton!

Yep, with the new frame design a standard tank won't fit... I had thought of using a cbr600rr tank cover and chopping it, allowing for a simpler tank design underneath. What do you guys think?

I could still do with some suggestions re: the fairing and tail unit
How about one of these far eastern complete fairing kits in abs plastic or a cbr600rr race fairing?

if I bought one now, I could measure it up to make sure everything would fit inside?
#121 SEBSPEED

 redmarque, on 08 November 2009 - 04:56 AM, said:

 JamieDaugherty, on 07 November 2009 - 10:31 PM, said:

Wow, you're fabricating a tank too!?!?  You sure are a glutton!

Yep, with the new frame design a standard tank won't fit... I had thought of using a cbr600rr tank cover and chopping it, allowing for a simpler tank design underneath. What do you guys think?

I could still do with some suggestions re: the fairing and tail unit
How about one of these far eastern complete fairing kits in abs plastic or a cbr600rr race fairing?

if I bought one now, I could measure it up to make sure everything would fit inside?

1.5mm (.063") is all you need brother. If you want to include some contours, make a wooden buck and shape the 1.5mm ali over the buck.

The aluminum tank + cover idea is one that I have also spent time thinking about. The part I get hung up on, is that I like to hang off my bikes, and that means the tank has to support my weight at times. I would build the actual tank in a way that allows it to support the outer cover when I jam my knee against it and hang off into a turn.

Also, unless you're thinking that you want bodywork, I'm pretty sure that those companies will sell you the tank cover only. I was able to buy the Duc 1098 tail for my 86 project without too much trouble. It was especially cheap, because I had them send it unpainted!   :blink:
#122 redmarque Thread starter

 SEBSPEED, on 08 November 2009 - 07:50 AM, said:

The aluminum tank + cover idea is one that I have also spent time thinking about. The part I get hung up on, is that I like to hang off my bikes, and that means the tank has to support my weight at times. I would build the actual tank in a way that allows it to support the outer cover when I jam my knee against it and hang off into a turn.

Also, unless you're thinking that you want bodywork, I'm pretty sure that those companies will sell you the tank cover only. I was able to buy the Duc 1098 tail for my 86 project without too much trouble. It was especially cheap, because I had them send it unpainted!   :blink:

Thanks Seb,

I've just bought a cheap scuffed cbr600rr 06 tank cover to measure/cutup.  Looks like it could save a bit of work fabricating a 'pretty' ali tank. As you say it would need to braced to allow for some chimpanzee action. :+1:
[image: Posted Image]
#123 douglasthecook

 redmarque, on 08 November 2009 - 09:58 AM, said:

 SEBSPEED, on 08 November 2009 - 07:50 AM, said:

The aluminum tank + cover idea is one that I have also spent time thinking about. The part I get hung up on, is that I like to hang off my bikes, and that means the tank has to support my weight at times. I would build the actual tank in a way that allows it to support the outer cover when I jam my knee against it and hang off into a turn.

Also, unless you're thinking that you want bodywork, I'm pretty sure that those companies will sell you the tank cover only. I was able to buy the Duc 1098 tail for my 86 project without too much trouble. It was especially cheap, because I had them send it unpainted!   :blink:

Thanks Seb,

I've just bought a cheap scuffed cbr600rr 06 tank cover to measure/cutup.  Looks like it could save a bit of work fabricating a 'pretty' ali tank. As you say it would need to braced to allow for some chimpanzee action. :+1:
[image: Posted Image]

I have an additional CBR 600RR Tank cover available if you want/need it. Free other than postage....
#124 redmarque Thread starter

 douglasthecook, on 08 November 2009 - 10:13 AM, said:

I have an additional CBR 600RR Tank cover available if you want/need it. Free other than postage....

That's handy Doug! might take you up on that offer! Cheers!   :blink:
#125 douglasthecook

 redmarque, on 08 November 2009 - 10:29 AM, said:

 douglasthecook, on 08 November 2009 - 10:13 AM, said:

I have an additional CBR 600RR Tank cover available if you want/need it. Free other than postage....

That's handy Doug! might take you up on that offer! Cheers!   :beer:

No prob!!! It has a tab or two missing, as I got it from a friend who dropped his CBR and I was going to use it to practice my painting skills, or lack thereof on, however I don't need it now as I decided to buy a new tank and fairings instead...btw, this one is black, just in case you were wondering...
#126 redmarque Thread starter
Just thought i'd let you guys know what's happening...
I've had a couple of email communications with Norman Hossack which has been quite usful.
Norman stated in one of his emails that he wouldn't build one of his designs with less than 24 degrees rake.. i'm still waiting for a reply as to why he thinks that - will have to wait and see.. seams to have the opposite opinion to others.
Based on this and my own thoughts I've decided to relax the rake angle on the design from 17 to 20 Degrees, mainly this will allow the handlebars to be nearer the rider and give the bike a more conventional look overall. (standard fairings should fit better) i'm still on the look out for a used cbr600rr top and middle panels but tempted to buy a race fairing because the're cheap and available.

As to frame material 4130 now seams the best choice. my welding grasstrack friend tells me that he's found that it doesn't distort as much as T45 or CDS5 tube.

Currently i'm calulating how much tube/steel i'll need to buy.. crunch time's here. Hand over the money!

Red
#127 SEBSPEED
Nice to hear of some progress Andy. I wanted to ask, but figured you'd post when you had updates. :wheel:
#129 Beck

 redmarque, on 23 November 2009 - 01:23 PM, said:

Just thought i'd let you guys know what's happening...
I've had a couple of email communications with Norman Hossack which has been quite usful.
Norman stated in one of his emails that he wouldn't build one of his designs with less than 24 degrees rake.. i'm still waiting for a reply as to why he thinks that - will have to wait and see.. seams to have the opposite opinion to others.
Based on this and my own thoughts I've decided to relax the rake angle on the design from 17 to 20 Degrees, mainly this will allow the handlebars to be nearer the rider and give the bike a more conventional look overall. (standard fairings should fit better) i'm still on the look out for a used cbr600rr top and middle panels but tempted to buy a race fairing because the're cheap and available.

As to frame material 4130 now seams the best choice. my welding grasstrack friend tells me that he's found that it doesn't distort as much as T45 or CDS5 tube.

Currently i'm calulating how much tube/steel i'll need to buy.. crunch time's here. Hand over the money!

Red
4130, fantastic! it should come up to be a fine, strong and light frame for the bike. A "Reynolds TI" sticker on it might look good too, if that's what you will be using.
Are you planning to powdercoat or polish/nickel chrome the frame..ala Harris??
I vote for powdercoat...red would be nice, but I've seen some black powdercoated frames on late model KTMs that also look great.

Beck
95 VFR
#130 Veefer800Canuck
If you're going to powdercoat or paint the frame, I vote for a silver finish that "looks" somewhat like natural unfinished white metal.
#131 redmarque Thread starter
Cheers Guys!

Powercoat satin black for the frame - or red not quite sure yet. mixture of Gloss and Matt Black bodywork...
Like a KTM RC8R (big fan of these)

I've picked up a 2005 Ducati 999 top fairing which could be good if I re-locate the stacked projector holes to side by side. now looking for the mid fairing sections.
#132 SEBSPEED

 redmarque, on 05 December 2009 - 06:12 AM, said:

Cheers Guys!

Powercoat satin black for the frame - or red not quite sure yet. mixture of Gloss and Matt Black bodywork...
Like a KTM RC8R (big fan of these)

I've picked up a 2005 Ducati 999 top fairing which could be good if I re-locate the stacked projector holes to side by side. now looking for the mid fairing sections.

Check out the chinese kits, they're cheap!
#133 mello dude
I am just a spectator for this but   - Very cool! - -- I am amazed by all the technical talent we have on this web site.......

MD
#135 redmarque Thread starter
Cheers Baketech - will have a look at that issue of BIKE.
Hugo's Morlaco was a great infulence on my MK1 original design, which you've probably noticed! :fing02:
Have you seen his Moto2 bike: www.bottpower.com
As always I've had some non-bike projects/work have been in the way recently.

Updates on the bike:
Revised the latest design. Main tubes are 1.125 inch and joining tubes 1 inch. rear of fork legs are now 1.125 dia.

Ordered the 4130 steel tubing yesterday - so hopefully will have something real/progress to show in the next couple of weeks.
#137 redmarque Thread starter
Now that's a very cool looking machine.. frontend is a girder with headshock though. (like a confederate wraith)
#138 redmarque Thread starter
I know It�s been awhile� but I�ve had some time to spend on Mk2!

Frame fixture/jig is almost complete, some shimming and repositioning will be required once the tubes are cut and in place.
Tubing profiles are all unwrapped from the CAD model. Some scratching of head will be involved to make a template for the bent connecting top tube. Also the order in which the tubes must be fitted and welded has to be worked out so they all go in without problems.

[image: Posted Image]

[image: Posted Image]

In preparation for reworking the rear sub-frame design, I�ve purchased a pattern rs125 seat unit. It will require some �modification� to blend from the tank cover� but I�m please with the general look.

[image: Posted Image]
#140 SEBSPEED
:cheerleader: Go Red Go!   :cheerleader:

:biggrin:

I like the tail, I would love to see some flexible LED's grafted in there!

[image: Posted Image]
#141 redmarque Thread starter
You can always count on SEB for encouragement! Cheers! Liking the LED stip tail-light idea too... how about a cylon/night rider effect on switch on? This has been very handy over the last few weeks.. making sure that the horizontal/verital tubes are perfectly alined to each other. It can be zeroed at any angle for reference and acurate to .1 Degrees.
#142 SEBSPEED
I've been looking locally for one of those angle finders, but haven't found one. I'm going to have to order one online, I'm sure I have a few uses for one!

And yes, you can buy a module that will run your led's like that... :cheerleader: lol
#143 SEBSPEED
ps - got any close-ups of your 600RR/RC51 rear caliper mod? Or is it just a mock up right now?
#144 redmarque Thread starter
Got the angle gauge from 'ebay' for about �23 UK pounds.

Here you go Seb. It's a cut and shut job of the standard 5th Gen mounting and a trimed down 600RR caliper mount with 8mm 6082 T6 plate shaped and welded in between (it's not my welding btw)
I had to grind down the caliper's back to get the wheel spoke clearance. whether this setup will work well has yet to be proved as the caliper is back to front on the disc...

[image: Posted Image]

[image: Posted Image]
#145 SEBSPEED
Nice, thanks!

I think it will work just the same facing in.
#147 magicman
I've been following this for quite a while, and I'm glad to see you getting it together. Take your time and get it right. The suspense is worth it.
#148 redmarque Thread starter
A VFRD Member asked me about my rear caliper mod and how I delt with the torque arm.
So hopefully this will help explain with pictures..

I trimed off the orginal mounting from the existing torque arm plate.

[image: Posted Image]

Backside of the caliper needed to be trimed down to miss the wheelspokes - there is still plenty of metal left

[image: Posted Image]

Removed the CBR600RR axle mounting and mated between the two by welding in profiled 8mm thick 6082 plates
If i was making this again I think I would have positioned the caliper upright or slightly forward of the axle.

[image: Posted Image]

Replaced the stock mounting bolts with stainless items and machined the bolt heads to make the wheel sit flush.

There's curtainly some weight loss over stock; plus mounting the caliper above the arm will cut down on the amount of dirt, brake dust and corrosion.

Rear wavy disc is from "BRAKING" http://www.braking.c.../sito.asp?pag=4
#149 Veefer800Canuck
I like your idea of moving the caliper forwards, it would have the benefit of positioning the bleeder nipple upright, so you could bleed the rear caliper without removing and repositioning it, which is one of my beefs with the stock 5th gen setup.



Nice work Red, and I can't wait to see HossackViffer MK II on the road.

You should powdercoat the frame Red like a Ducati!   :blink:
#150 SEBSPEED

 Veefer800Canuck, on 15 March 2010 - 04:37 AM, said:

I like your idea of moving the caliper forwards, it would have the benefit of positioning the bleeder nipple upright, so you could bleed the rear caliper without removing and repositioning it, which is one of my beefs with the stock 5th gen setup.



Nice work Red, and I can't wait to see HossackViffer MK II on the road.

You should powdercoat the frame Red like a Ducati!   :blink:

CBR600F4i caliper has the same mounting pattern, but the banjo bolt and bleeder are swapped. Little known fact. http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/wink.gif :beer:
#151 heng47
I plucked those rake figures from current bikes. The 23.5 figure came from the CBR600RR, it had the steepest one. Ducatis were mostly 24.5. Street/naked bikes are 25.5~26.5. I think I read in the book that John Britten kept to a traditional 20-ish rake figure despite the hossack front, seriously I don't know better either. That 15 degree BMW looks interesting, if not a little scary. But it does provide food for thought. I'll mock up a quick model once I have the figures meshed out.
#152 redmarque Thread starter
Another goal reached! :cheerleader: So pleased the forks are ready for welding.
I'm never ever profiling tubes with such low angle joints and bends again! :pissed:

[image: Posted Image]
#154 YoshiHNS
That looks like an amazingly fun weld job. :mellow:
#155 redmarque Thread starter
Yep, it's going to be a challenge.. fortunately not for me though! I'm hiring the same guy whom did the welding on Mk1. After all this effort and accuracy I don't trust myself!
The front parts of the legs and ajoining tubes aren't tacked on yet, so that the rear legs can be welded first.
#158 magicman

[image: View Post]chris2992, on 08 July 2010 - 12:56 PM, said:

SEXY!


Couldn't have said it better myself...


But I can say it bigger...


That is one sexy fork!
#159 BusyLittleShop
I like your project... telescopic forks are way over due for
replacement... did you find Tony's book useful???

While Tony Foale was in the Bay Area he gave a 2 day seminar... very
interesting... I taped it all and I'm still digesting it... the man is a
genius...

Inside Ray Abrams shop on board Kenny Roberts TZ750 Flat Tracker...
[image: Posted Image]
#160 tok tokkie
Nice work Red.

Tony Foale is much younger looking than I expected.
#162 redmarque Thread starter
New upper and lower designed and fabricated. Increased the area which the tubes join around the bearing cups for added strength.

[image: Posted Image]
#163 redmarque Thread starter
Backup from welders! Test fitted frame on motor with scrap mounting plates.
A few modifications to the position will be needed to align rear shock and upper front a-arm.

[image: Posted Image]

Fork came out rather well :cheerleader: Nice welding - will need some mild heat to get both calipers to line up correctly.

[image: Posted Image]
#164 Veefer800Canuck
Beautiful, simply beautiful. :fing02:

Did I mention you're a nutter? :laughing6-hehe:

But in a good way! :cheerleader:
#165 redmarque Thread starter
Thanks Canuck!

I offen think I must be a bit crazy :goofy: - especially taking on a project like this! :blush: So much still to do!
#166 SEBSPEED
I hate to keep repeating myself, but - :cheerleader: :cheerleader:

:goofy:

Do more work! Keep the momentum going man! :beer:
#167 Vee-Ef-Ar
MkII = Total sexy time.
Keep at it Red :fing02:
#168 hawglet
Not really sure how I've missed this for the last nearly year. Amazing work, I'm with it now. Keep on a rollin'
#169 Druid
Some really impressive work here, both the designing and fabricating.� � :fing02:

I know you were intending to fabricate a tank and use a CBR tank cover, but it might be worth getting in touch with these guys and have an alloy tank made. �At least you know it would be watertight (or petroltight) and it would take your weight when you hang off the bike.


#170 vfrrider

[image: View Post]redmarque, on 12 September 2010 - 04:19 AM, said:

Backup from welders! Test fitted frame on motor with scrap mounting plates.
A few modifications to the position will be needed to align rear shock and upper front a-arm.

[image: Posted Image]

Fork came out rather well :cheerleader: Nice welding - will need some mild heat to get both calipers to line up correctly.

[image: Posted Image]



Following your project with great interest.

Looking at the front end, I'm a little worried about the stress going into that lower bearing mount. Since the forces will be going into the cup vertically, the spreaders might have a tendency to flex the tubes at the junction, in and out, up and down. Maybe a little triangulation on those joints?

Great progress so far. Now would be the time for that big bore kit, too.

Larry
VFRrider
#171 redmarque Thread starter

Thanks Larry :fing02:

I'm not really sure what you mean - i don't understand your description of the issue. :blush:

i've decided not to spend $$ modifiy the engine until everything else is complete. If the bike handles well then i'll certainly look into more power.

Working on the steering/handlebar mounting atm.. wil post pics when more parts are finished.

#172 redmarque Thread starter
Druid

I know you were intending to fabricate a tank and use a CBR tank cover, but it might be worth getting in touch with these guys and have an alloy tank made.  At least you know it would be watertight (or petroltight) and it would take your weight when you hang off the bike.

Hey those tanks are sure pretty and unfortunatly expensive! As this is a prototype that I don't even know if it will work yet; I thought it best to make things functional first and aesthetic second.

This mad supercharged TL1000 built for hillclimbing has simular idea to what i'd planned to use. - without the supercharger/plenum :wub:

[image: 150520101002.jpg]

[image: 150520101004.jpg]

:offtopic: Apparently it makes over 200BHP and looks the business!

#173 Druid
redmarque
Druid

I know you were intending to fabricate a tank and use a CBR tank cover, but it might be worth getting in touch with these guys and have an alloy tank made.  At least you know it would be watertight (or petroltight) and it would take your weight when you hang off the bike.

Hey those tanks are sure pretty and unfortunatly expensive! As this is a prototype that I don't even know if it will work yet; I thought it best to make things functional first and aesthetic second.

This mad supercharged TL1000 built for hillclimbing has simular idea to what i'd planned to use.  - without the supercharger/plenum :wub:

Ok, I didn't know what your budget was but I thought £500ish was a good price for a custom built tank.  

The TL looks great.  I wonder if it's for sale, it would be ideal for my commute :)

#174 Guest vfrrider

Where the lower a arm connects with the forks. The forces going into this are up and down. The spreaders going out to the forks transmit this as in and out to the fork legs, essentially spreading them in and out. Although CrMo is terrifically strong, and the welds stronger, the forces will try to flex those welds and nothoing withstands repeated lateral loading forever until fatigue steps in. Maybe a little triangulation at the fork junction would be advisable. Do not have access to the loads, but a FE program would tell you the kind of loads anticipated. My dumb idea of the day.

Looking good.

Larry

VFRrider

#175 redmarque Thread starter

Ah, Now I understand what you're getting at!

Your reasons for concern are valid and I thank you for pointing out a possible issue.

Having re-evaluated the design and discussed with my engineer/welder friend i’ve come to the conclusion that if there were only 2 spreading bars I would agree that more triangulation would need to be added. The design has four connecting struts to front and rear of the fork all of which are angled to transmit the loads.

Look at this Vincent girder fork for example; which has only 2 legs. Instead of round tubes it utilises a thick plate to perform a similar function. Also note the material (mild steel) and section/thickness of the fork legs compared to my Hossack design.

[image: black-shadow-girder.jpg]

I will be keeping a close eye on all the frame and forks for any signs of fatigue once testing begins. My sense of life preservation is VERY strong!

#176 redmarque Thread starter
Druid

Ok, I didn't know what your budget was but I thought £500ish was a good price for a custom built tank.  

The TL looks great.  I wonder if it's for sale, it would be ideal for my commute :)

Wish I had more funds to indulge my hobby further :blush:

Yeah that TL would be a hoot though morning traffic... V-twin booming and hiss of waste gate to intimidate the car drivers! :fing02:

#177 tok tokkie

The spring tubes are not on that Vincent. The springs were in long thin tubes behind the blades in your photo; you can see the 2 bolts where they mount at the bottom. The tops mount to the bobbin like thing just behind the steel joining plate. That is where the spring load goes. The thing that looks like a small modern shock at the top is, in fact, just an hydraulic damper - no spring there. The spring load is carried from the bottom of the girder to the lower wishbone.

In your design the entire wheel load is transmitted up to the 4 short angled tubes onto the spring/shock unit. There is a spreading load there whereas the Vincent has only the damping forces there. I agree with VFRider about the spreading but have no gut feel if it is significant or not.

#178 SEBSPEED

This thread is prime for a bump... Andy, do you have any progress to share with us or has that new R1 led you astray? :smile:

#179 redmarque Thread starter

Agghhh! You got me there Seb! Yep there's some progress... slow progress but something to look at!

[image: gallery_12018_6177_52130.jpg]

Coils mounted... has anyone worked out if a coil-on-plug setup works yet?

[image: gallery_12018_6177_129231.jpg]

airbox plug nearly ready for fibreglass - i've moulded this now but haven't taken any pics of it yet.

[image: gallery_12018_6177_23599.jpg]

#180 SEBSPEED
:cheerleader: :lurk: :cheerleader:
#182 redmarque Thread starter

Cheers guys! I've seen Rangerscott69's COP setup. - Hoping it's still working OK too.

#183 SEBSPEED

Sorry for the prod Andy... curious to know if you've got anything new to show us? Airbox work? Maybe a mockup of that Duc bodywork you had planned?

#185 Ranger77

Ha. I never saw that I was mentioned in this kick ass thread. The COP's ran fine while I had them installed. Just took them off because of vacation trips and just wanted to eliminate any problems. There are others that have been running them longer than I have with no problems.

#186 redmarque Thread starter

Hmmm... apologies all - I hadn't seen that anyone had posted to this thread this year till this morning!

Some progess..

I've moulded a rudimentry airbox as a standard one wouldn't fit between the frame rails. filtering is going to be minimal... stainless steel mesh maybe a thin layer of foam.

[image: airbox_fibre1.jpg]

[image: airbox_fibre2.jpg]

All of the electrics are mounted under the seat plate apart from the tilt switch sensor. Fibreglassed a holder for the LiFe Po4 battery.

[image: life_battm.jpg]

Having read the COP thread yesterday. i've pulled the trigger on some late model GSXR 750/600 coil sticks - getting rid of those traditional coils and leads will be great with such limmited space.

#188 douglasthecook

If you're tight for space, Hayabusa coils are shorter than the GSX-R coils by about an inch/2.5CM...

#189 redmarque Thread starter

Cheers doug, It's more of where was I going to put the old style coils I have them mounted like this... and they look meh!

[image: coil_loc.jpg]

#190 redmarque Thread starter
SEBSPEED

Hi Andy :-)

Hi Mr Mod! :tongue:

#191 douglasthecook
redmarque

Cheers doug, It's more of where was I going to put the old style coils I have them mounted like this... and they look meh!

[image: coil_loc.jpg]

I like them green, looks rather military!!!

#192 redmarque Thread starter

i started designing some rearsets a long time ago.... well there's a fair amount of machining and design in a full set.. so I cheated..

[image: 5gen_rearsets1.jpg]

Adaptor plates... keep it simple and allow any cbr600rr rearsets to be used. these are from uk gbmoto.

I need to machine another set with the mounting holes more upright.

#193 SEBSPEED
redmarque

I need to machine another set with the mounting holes more upright.

We need to collaborate and make many, many sets for all our VFR brothers and sisters around the world. :wink:

#194 redmarque Thread starter
SEBSPEED

We need to collaborate and make many, many sets for all our VFR brothers and sisters around the world. :wink:

Yes indeed we do :fing02: Some chamfering on the edges and black anodising and we'll be good to go.

Here's the other side and a better shot of a plate.

[image: 5gen_rearsets2.jpg]

[image: 5gen_rearsets.jpg]

Uses one of gear linkages that comes with the rearsets.

#195 Veefer800Canuck

I can't wait to see this beastie running on the roads!

#196 redmarque Thread starter
Something to look at.. started fabing the tank. i've calulated that it will hold about 10 litres.. will do for testing.

[image: Posted Image]

Underside will fit over the airbox nicely.

[image: Posted Image]

Anybody recommend some type of isolation mounts?
#197 SEBSPEED
Generic rubber grommets at the mounting points should suffice.
#200 redmarque Thread starter
Wow, very Stealth-Fighterish!!!

Cheers Mr Canuck!

Shame it's going to be hidden with a CBR600RR tank cover. Will source some baffle foam blocks to stop the fuel sloshing about too.


#201 SEBSPEED

:cheerleader: :cheerleader:


#202 YoshiHNS
Wow, very Stealth-Fighterish!!!

Cheers Mr Canuck!

Shame it's going to be hidden with a CBR600RR tank cover. Will source some baffle foam blocks to stop the fuel sloshing about too.

Sometimes better to make something cheap and easy than sexy and expensive. Do you have the fuel pump on there as well, or something else planned?


#203 redmarque Thread starter

Thanks Guys! :cool:   One day i'll make a sexy hand beaten tank!

Will be using a stock fuel pump and this mounting plate.


[image: fuel_pumpm.jpg]


#204 SEBSPEED
Have you conducted a pressure/leak test yet?

Also feel like a nice anodize or at least an alodine bath is in order. :-)
#205 redmarque Thread starter
Have you conducted a pressure/leak test yet?

Also feel like a nice anodize or at least an sliding bath is in order. :-)

Nope - filler neck and breather still need welding on.

Open to ideas on wjhat to do for a leak/pressure test? Anodising sounds like a good idea. Sliding bath? you been playing with rubber duckies and the soap again? :goofy:


#206 SEBSPEED
Oops! Stupid auto correct... Should have been "alodine" bath.

For the leak test it's a good idea to pressurize to 5-15psi of helium, them either submerge in water or douse with soapy water.
#207 redmarque Thread starter

Alodine... had to look that up. Guessing you use it on aircraft parts at work?

Gonna be very careful with pressure testing. i've heard of people balloning tanks with only 5 psi.


#208 SEBSPEED
Yes, we use it on a number of parts. It inhibits corrosion while allowing conduction of electricity. Pretty gold color too.
#209 nick84

Wow... that's an impressive project! :cheerleader:

But it's been a while now since we last got an update... I wonder what happened to it...

:unsure2:


#211 redmarque Thread starter

Strange..yawns and blinks.... it's 2015 erk! didn't see the thread bump... New years resolutions include getting this bike on the road for a UK summer! :cheerleader:

I've been tied up with renovating my old house over winter.. .warmer weather soon please!

Something to look at in the way of an update.. Honda RS250RW track fairing... i've added some mounting tabs and started the front subframe... Radiator is really too wide for the upper so now mounted veritcally with new hangers welded on.

[image: fairing2.jpg]

[image: fairing3.jpg]

Happy New Year VFRD! :beer:


#212 SEBSPEED
Oh, what a happy new year it is. Welcome back Andy :smile:
#213 Veefer800Canuck
awesome

this is one bike that I can relate to in flat black
#214 Switchblade

Forgot about  this  jewel.  WELCOME BACK   ...


#215 ninjadoc

absolutely fantastic, such dedication and craftmanship, if i was a millionaire i would have funded the whole project ..unfortunately i am pooooor :( ... but  you deserve it.


End of thread · 217 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 26 Nov 2020