kaldekrangerscott69She rode better today. Felt pretty much normal with the coil sticks.
I suppose this means the Viffer has a closed loop ignition dwell system then. Keep us posted.
Would this closed-loop thing apply only to FI bikes, or apply to my carbed 4th gen as well?
Reviving this thread because the topic came up in another - and I'm still curious. Will try and dig up those F4i coils today.
Located my F4i coils. Turns out I only have 3. DVM set to ohms, two of them slowly came up to 1.1/1.2ohms, the third spiked up to 1.4 then settled at 1.1ohms.
I'm going to think up a prize to offer to the first person to figure out how to make these work on a 4th gen...
Anything new here?
I ran across a few threads by accident while searching for something else...
http://www.fzronline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=6316
http://cbrforum.com/forum/cbr-600f3-17/coil-plug-conversion-110182/
Some other notes for everyone's benefit...
The blue wire fires the coil going to 1/4. The yellow wire fires the coil going to 2/3. The black/white wire provides the switched 12volts +.There is no real polarity on the coils. Just a black/white and a color to each.
The one plug fires positive the other negative. So interchanging the location on the coil just interchanges which plug is firing positive.
You can wire it whatever makes the wires "reach" best. Coil location on the bike whatever is unimportant. Blue is 1/4,yellow is 2/3,is the only important info.
SEBSPEEDLocated my F4i coils. Turns out I only have 3. DVM set to ohms, two of them slowly came up to 1.1/1.2ohms, the third spiked up to 1.4 then settled at 1.1ohms.
I'm going to think up a prize to offer to the first person to figure out how to make these work on a 4th gen...
That's easy - run them in series as wasted spark. It's already a dual-coil (rather than quad-coil) setup isn't it? If it's wasted spark 3.4 ohms each coil with dual coils you just wire two 1.6 ohm stick coils in series. (1 & 4 and 3 & 2).
kaldekSEBSPEEDLocated my F4i coils. Turns out I only have 3. DVM set to ohms, two of them slowly came up to 1.1/1.2ohms, the third spiked up to 1.4 then settled at 1.1ohms.
I'm going to think up a prize to offer to the first person to figure out how to make these work on a 4th gen...
That's easy - run them in series as wasted spark. It's already a dual-coil (rather than quad-coil) setup isn't it? If it's wasted spark 3.4 ohms each coil with dual coils you just wire two 1.6 ohm stick coils in series. (1 & 4 and 3 & 2).
***Please disregard the following, I was being an idiot***
Yes, 4th gen is dual coil. Come to think of it, my 83 750F is dual coil as well, but I've already spent a bundle on Accel coils and wires and such for that bike. And my CB900F is dual coil as well, but just yesterday I installed CBR900RR coils and Accel wires on that one!
So, I wire it up like these then?
SEBSPEEDSo, I wire it up like these then?
Yep that's the way it's done. It only ever works if one of the new coils is half the resistance/ohms of the oil dual coil pack. So even though some of your other bikes will be dual-coil they may not be 3.2 ohms.
If the original dual coil packs are much lower than 3.2 ohms, you will overcharge the new coils (too long a dwell time) and blow the coils/wear the plugs out fast, or undercharge the coils (too short a dwell time) and get poor spark. Unless your CDI has closed loop dwell control of course, in which case pretty much anything should work.
kaldekSEBSPEEDSo, I wire it up like these then?
Yep that's the way it's done. It only ever works if one of the new coils is half the resistance/ohms of the oil dual coil pack. So even though some of your other bikes will be dual-coil they may not be 3.2 ohms.
If the original dual coil packs are much lower than 3.2 ohms, you will overcharge the new coils (too long a dwell time) and blow the coils/wear the plugs out fast, or undercharge the coils (too short a dwell time) and get poor spark. Unless your CDI has closed loop dwell control of course, in which case pretty much anything should work.
Well, in that case, I just need to get my hands on one more coil. I have 3... dunno what happened to the 4th. I have the harness for them as well, so that will be simple to cut up and run new wires to the old coil spades(will create a new connection with more suitable hardware).
Of course, I should probably get the bike running in "stock" trim first... heh!
SEBSPEEDkaldekSEBSPEEDSo, I wire it up like these then?
Yep that's the way it's done. It only ever works if one of the new coils is half the resistance/ohms of the oil dual coil pack. So even though some of your other bikes will be dual-coil they may not be 3.2 ohms.
If the original dual coil packs are much lower than 3.2 ohms, you will overcharge the new coils (too long a dwell time) and blow the coils/wear the plugs out fast, or undercharge the coils (too short a dwell time) and get poor spark. Unless your CDI has closed loop dwell control of course, in which case pretty much anything should work.
Well, in that case, I just need to get my hands on one more coil. I have 3... dunno what happened to the 4th. I have the harness for them as well, so that will be simple to cut up and run new wires to the old coil spades(will create a new connection with more suitable hardware).
Of course, I should probably get the bike running in "stock" trim first... heh!
Running would be good!!! If you do the coil conversion, please take picks ofr us individuals that aren't so electrically inclined, as I'm seriously debating on doing this mod prior to my track day at Spa in April, as I really haven't done anything to my VFR this winter, running out of things to mess with I guess...
4th gens have four individual coils that are fired by 4 separate ignition drivers. IIRC my NC30 had two coils running wasted spark, each coil fired both paired cylinders since it was a 360 degree motor and they were adjacent.
I would think it's possible to pair up the four ignition drivers(each pair firing two stick coils wired up in series) in wasted spark configuration, at least on a 4th gen.
I think I read somewhere that the 5th gen had specific ignition maps for each cylinder, or at least different maps front to rear, so it might run funky if you were to pair up a front and a rear cylinder(which you would have to do since its a 180 motor) to one driver meant for either a front or rear cylinder. Or it might run just fine.
kostritzer4th gens have four individual coils that are fired by 4 separate ignition drivers. IIRC my NC30 had two coils running wasted spark, each coil fired both paired cylinders since it was a 360 degree motor and they were adjacent.
Wow, yeah. I totally spaced on that one. Insert facepalm here!
kostritzer4th gens have four individual coils that are fired by 4 separate ignition drivers. IIRC my NC30 had two coils running wasted spark, each coil fired both paired cylinders since it was a 360 degree motor and they were adjacent.
I would think it's possible to use two of the four ignition drivers(each one firing two stick coils wired up in series) in wasted spark configuration, at least on a 4th gen.
I think I read somewhere that the 5th gen had specific ignition maps for each cylinder, or at least different maps front to rear, so it might run funky if you were to pair up a front and a rear cylinder(which you would have to do since its a 180 motor) to one driver meant for either a front or rear cylinder. Or it might run just fine.
Umm, ok, ahh...what does all this mean??? I'm really good with nuts and bolts and aircraft, and aluminum, but not electricity. Someone needs to draw me a pretty picture, because I'm just not getting this, and could really use the visual assistance!!!
well, my ms paint skills are pretty lacking. I'll try to draw a picture(artistic skills also lacking) when I get a chance, scan it and post it up. In the meantime, if you look at a 4th gen ignition wiring diagram, you'll see two wires going to each coil. One wire is switched ignition, the other is the "ground" circuit which is controlled by the ignition driver in the TCI. There are 4 drivers, one for each coil/cylinder that are actuated in the firing order of the engine, which I can't remember off the top of my head.
The reason you want to wire them in series is so that you add up the resistance of the two "stick" coils so that it equals the same amount of resistance of the original factory coil. To do this, you're going to have your switched ignition wire going into one terminal of the paired coils, then on the other terminal of the same coil, you'll run a wire to the other coil, then you run your ignition driver wire to the other terminal on this coil... Ok, a pic would definitely help here.
here's a good pic stolen from another site that should explain it pretty well, you just have to ignore how the wires are labeled in this pic. Basically the green negative wire going to cylinder 3 would go to the cylinder #2 and #3 ground/driver wire on the VFR harness, and the negative yellow wire going to cylinder 4 in this pic would go to the cylinder #1 and #4 ground/driver wire in the VFR harness. That is assuming cylinder's 1 & 4, and cylinders 2 & 3 are companion cylinders on the VFR engine, which I'm pretty sure they are.
[image: stickcoilsinseries]
SEBSPEEDSome other notes for everyone's benefit...
The blue wire fires the coil going to 1/4. The yellow wire fires the coil going to 2/3. The black/white wire provides the switched 12volts +.There is no real polarity on the coils. Just a black/white and a color to each.
The one plug fires positive the other negative. So interchanging the location on the coil just interchanges which plug is firing positive.
You can wire it whatever makes the wires "reach" best. Coil location on the bike whatever is unimportant. Blue is 1/4,yellow is 2/3,is the only important info.
so implementing this setup (which I think is a late 90's CBR600 setup would convert the 4 coil system on a 4th gen to a 2 coil, wasted spark system, essentially doubling the number of sparks in each cylinder per revolution?
This could be really useful for those of us fightering our VFRs to reduce the number of coils to relocate. Of course figuring out the COP option would be even better.
jeremy77SEBSPEEDSome other notes for everyone's benefit...
The blue wire fires the coil going to 1/4. The yellow wire fires the coil going to 2/3. The black/white wire provides the switched 12volts +.There is no real polarity on the coils. Just a black/white and a color to each.
The one plug fires positive the other negative. So interchanging the location on the coil just interchanges which plug is firing positive.
You can wire it whatever makes the wires "reach" best. Coil location on the bike whatever is unimportant. Blue is 1/4,yellow is 2/3,is the only important info.
so implementing this setup (which I think is a late 90's CBR600 setup would convert the 4 coil system on a 4th gen to a 2 coil, wasted spark system, essentially doubling the number of sparks in each cylinder per revolution?
This could be really useful for those of us fightering our VFRs to reduce the number of coils to relocate. Of course figuring out the COP option would be even better.
Yes, you should be able to in theory.
Of course given the fact that the coils are firing twice as often, they may last half as long or potentially overheat, but I doubt it.
kostritzerjeremy77SEBSPEEDSome other notes for everyone's benefit...
The blue wire fires the coil going to 1/4. The yellow wire fires the coil going to 2/3. The black/white wire provides the switched 12volts +.There is no real polarity on the coils. Just a black/white and a color to each.
The one plug fires positive the other negative. So interchanging the location on the coil just interchanges which plug is firing positive.
You can wire it whatever makes the wires "reach" best. Coil location on the bike whatever is unimportant. Blue is 1/4,yellow is 2/3,is the only important info.
so implementing this setup (which I think is a late 90's CBR600 setup would convert the 4 coil system on a 4th gen to a 2 coil, wasted spark system, essentially doubling the number of sparks in each cylinder per revolution?
This could be really useful for those of us fightering our VFRs to reduce the number of coils to relocate. Of course figuring out the COP option would be even better.
Yes, you should be able to in theory.
Didn't we already establish that I was wrong, the 4th gen uses 4 coils?
Yeah, but I think Jeremy was asking if it were possible to use a two coil waste spark setup like the one you posted a picture of to eliminate two of the factory coils.
kostritzerhere's a good pic stolen from another site that should explain it pretty well, you just have to ignore how the wires are labeled in this pic. Basically the green negative wire going to cylinder 3 would go to the cylinder #2 and #3 ground/driver wire on the VFR harness, and the negative yellow wire going to cylinder 4 in this pic would go to the cylinder #1 and #4 ground/driver wire in the VFR harness. That is assuming cylinder's 1 & 4, and cylinders 2 & 3 are companion cylinders on the VFR engine, which I'm pretty sure they are.
I don't think this could work with the VFR's 180º crank as there is there are no two cylinders that are in TDC the same time as with a 360º crank you can pair 1&3 and 2&4. This connection only allows to run to 2 different timing advances which is fine for conventional I4 or a 360º crank V4 engine but with a 180º crank the other cylinder would be in BDC with a fresh air/fuel mix while the other cylinder is ignited. I think this is the reason 3rd and 4th gen have 4 coils and 4 coil drivers with individual timing. If you'd pair 1&2 and 3&4 the other cylinder would be half way to exhaust or intake stroke while igniting the other depending on the cylinder to be ignited. Is that a problem I don't know but I have doubts. Also the paired coils would have to get signal from both coil drivers and this connection does not do this. I think the same goes to 5th and 6th gen also as they have 180º cranks also.
^ Well on a 750 you can lift one cam on each bank, rotate it laterally and reinstall it. That way each bank fires at the same time so you could in effect have both cylinders in each bank at TDC simultaneously.
The bike will run just fine like this, it's been done before.
Came across this diagram from the 1986 VFR750 F-G microfiche, don't know if it helps...
The Phantom^ Well on a 750 you can lift one cam on each bank, rotate it laterally and reinstall it. That way each bank fires at the same time so you could in effect have both cylinders in each bank at TDC simultaneously.
The bike will run just fine like this, it's been done before.
The "Twin Twingle" project.
kostritzerYeah, but I think Jeremy was asking if it were possible to use a two coil waste spark setup like the one you posted a picture of to eliminate two of the factory coils.
That's correct. The idea of either eliminating half the coils or moving the coils to the plug should appeal to the Streetfighter guys as we try to eliminate clutter that is normally hidden under fairings... b/c we don't have fairings.
I think I would prefer to do a nice COP mod, if that's an option, because it should keep the factory timing and power consumption... I think.
I'm still learning about all this stuff... I love VFRD because there is so much knowledge being shared and lots of collaboration between members.
The Phantom^ Well on a 750 you can lift one cam on each bank, rotate it laterally and reinstall it. That way each bank fires at the same time so you could in effect have both cylinders in each bank at TDC simultaneously.
The bike will run just fine like this, it's been done before.
Came across this diagram from the 1986 VFR750 F-G microfiche, don't know if it helps...
I don't see how this would work on any of the 180 degree motors as one piston will always be at BDC when the other is at TDC per bank. I could see how it would work on a 360 degree motor though.
I think the bottom line here, is that we need a cop meant to work with a capacitive discharge system (cdi).
Does the 5th gen definitely use a CDI? I know the 4th gen is TCI. I was under the impression that most ignition systems using the COP's were CDI, and that we're trying to figure out how to use the COP's with a TCI.
As far as I can tell, all the vfrs that we're trying to convert are cdi type.
I'm making this assumption based on tests outlined by Accel with regard to determining ignition type when replacing factory coils with their product. Since I've only been able to check primary resistance, and not the impedance rating of each coil, I have to assume that the cops will not work on the 4th gen.
I'm not giving up yet though.
So the problem with the COP on a CDI system is that the COP does not have the required capacitor to hold the charge that fires the spark? I'm assuming this because of the size difference between the stock ignition coils for the VFR and the COP.
I just did a quick read of what a CDI system is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_discharge_ignition
I'm still trying to learn what all of this means... forgive the basic questions.
kostritzerThe Phantom^ Well on a 750 you can lift one cam on each bank, rotate it laterally and reinstall it. That way each bank fires at the same time so you could in effect have both cylinders in each bank at TDC simultaneously.
The bike will run just fine like this, it's been done before.
I don't see how this would work on any of the 180 degree motors as one piston will always be at BDC when the other is at TDC per bank. I could see how it would work on a 360 degree motor though.
When you 'twin-twingle' the V4, your pairing changes from across the bank to across the V... so you do in fact get both paired pistons at TDC at the same time. Whether this is relevant to the discussion I'm not sure - I am only about 80% up on the content here so far, but will learn more because I want to run a coil on plug set-up too :)
Ok, well I could see how it would work like that. I wonder if this setup would cause some interesting vibrations... Kind of a poorman's biggish bang. Do you have any links to the one you've seen?
The PhantomkostritzerThe Phantom^ Well on a 750 you can lift one cam on each bank, rotate it laterally and reinstall it. That way each bank fires at the same time so you could in effect have both cylinders in each bank at TDC simultaneously.
The bike will run just fine like this, it's been done before.
I don't see how this would work on any of the 180 degree motors as one piston will always be at BDC when the other is at TDC per bank. I could see how it would work on a 360 degree motor though.
When you 'twin-twingle' the V4, your pairing changes from across the bank to across the V... so you do in fact get both paired pistons at TDC at the same time. Whether this is relevant to the discussion I'm not sure - I am only about 80% up on the content here so far, but will learn more because I want to run a coil on plug set-up too :)
You really can't have two pistons at TDC at same time with a 90º V4 with a 180º crank no matter how you you turn the cams. The piston position depends solely on the crank and the v-angle. So I can't see how that would work without changing the crank to a 360º or 90º one (which doesn't exist to my knowledge).
kostritzerhere's a good pic stolen from another site that should explain it pretty well, you just have to ignore how the wires are labeled in this pic. Basically the green negative wire going to cylinder 3 would go to the cylinder #2 and #3 ground/driver wire on the VFR harness, and the negative yellow wire going to cylinder 4 in this pic would go to the cylinder #1 and #4 ground/driver wire in the VFR harness. That is assuming cylinder's 1 & 4, and cylinders 2 & 3 are companion cylinders on the VFR engine, which I'm pretty sure they are.
Thanks for the picture, but being that I'm extremely electronically ignorant, I'm not sure how to interpret this. I can say from my own research that 2006 CBR cops are two coils. This may be something that I have my mechanic do, as he did say that it could be done, but I wasn't able to understand what he was explaining, his English is alot better than my German, but things still get lost in translation.
VFR750 crank:
If we put a piston on each conrod, and then put those pistons into their respective bores, I believe we would have two pistons at TDC and two pistons at BDC, the angle of the V would have no bearing on this whatsoever.
RC45 crank, for reference:
kostritzerOk, well I could see how it would work like that. I wonder if this setup would cause some interesting vibrations... Kind of a poorman's biggish bang. Do you have any links to the one you've seen?
Not any more - it was done by a guy named Matt Wallace on the old VFR mailing list when John Perkins was running it. He rode it around like that for a while and said it sounded a little different but rode about the same, then switched it back to normal, IIRC simply because he could find no advantage to running it twin-twingled.
The PhantomVFR750 crank:
If we put a piston on each conrod, and then put those pistons into their respective bores, I believe we would have two pistons at TDC and two pistons at BDC, the angle of the V would have no bearing on this whatsoever.
RC45 crank, for reference:
We're definitely going a bit off topic here with this. The V-angle definitely makes a difference as to where the pistons will end up in their respective bores. If you look at the first picture with the crank laying flat, and imagine two of the rods on the same journal are facing down and the other two are facing up, it would lead you to believe that one piston would be at TDC on each bank at the same time. The problem is that the crank is laying flat, which it wouldn't be in a V engine with one piston at TDC. The other crank journal would need to be pointing in the same direction as the bore, and the only way for it to do that is if the crankshaft journals were 90 degrees of each other, or V shaped if looking at it from the side as opposed to flat like the 180 crank or all inline like a 360 crank. Here's an awful pic of a 750 short block with one piston at TDC, and none of the others at TDC. I'm sure someone has a better one.
[image: shortblock]
OK I'm with you. Here's what a 90 degree V4 would do - two pistons at TDC at the same time.
[video: https://www.youtube.com/embed/8aas3t6nQ5g?feature=oembed]Ok, this may have been covered previously in this thread, but I probably didn't comprehend the data. Why can't I just take the 4 cops install them in the cylinder heads, and wire them like the existing coils are wired, i.e., basically run new wires to the cops from the orginitang point to the cops...something like what I've tried to depict below...
STOCK originating point>can coils>spark plug
MOD originating point>cop>spark plug
Like I've said before, I'm not really good with electronics, but all I want to do is swap the can coils for the cops, I really didn't think it would be a major modification, but hey, with these things, I really never know!!! Thanks for all the pateince, and repeated attemps to get me to comprehend all this data, as it is alot for me to take in!!!
The below thread has alot of useful info, especially on pages 2 & 3...they discuss how the mod was done, as well as voltage and resistance.
http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/honda-rc51/44187-removing-coils-wire-coil.html
I didn't see anything written about resistance of the stock RC51 coils in that thread(kinda skimmed throught it), but Thorsten Durbahn mentioned on one page that the RC51 and RC30 use a CDI box instead of a TCI like our VFR's do. Apparently they've been using the stick coils on the RC51's with good success.
The concern is potential damage to the ignition box or coils over a long period of time. This may be one of those thing where someone is going to have to be the guinea pig and try it out. If my bike were together I'd be more than willing to try it.
kostritzerI didn't see anything written about resistance of the stock RC51 coils in that thread(kinda skimmed throught it), but Thorsten Durbahn mentioned on one page that the RC51 and RC30 use a CDI box instead of a TCI like our VFR's do.
kostritzerIn the meantime, if you look at a 4th gen ignition wiring diagram, you'll see two wires going to each coil. One wire is switched ignition, the other is the "ground" circuit which is controlled by the ignition driver in the TCI.
So our VFRs have a CDI or TCI ignition system? Or does it vary by generation?
As far as I know all 4th gens and earlier are TCI, not sure about the fuel injected models.
I actually didn't know the difference between CDI and TCI and had been viewing everything as TCI.
Checking into it though, since all the coils I've seen are 1.6 or 3.2 ohms I don't think they're CDI - those apparently have very low resistance (0.3 ohms or so). It's impossible to measure the resistance of the 6th-gen coils because they have the transistors inside the coil itself. I would guess that the 6th-gen is also TCI, as the coils are permanently fed 12 volts on one wire, have a dedicated ground wire and the third wire is the switch. This single wire should reasonably only be able to control a transistor that switched the 12 volt feed into the coil on (charge the coil), then off (collapse the field). So it's most likely TCI.
Another way of checking if a bike uses TCI or CDI is to look at the way the coils (2-wire coils anyway!) are powered. If they share a common +12 volt feed and have individual ground wires going back to the control box, then they're TCI. However if they share a common ground but have individual positive wires going to the control box, then they're CDI.
Lookee what I found - a 4th-gen ignition diagram.
So it's definitely TCI, as all the coils share the same 12 volt feed from the engine stop switch. Same wire colour as on the 6th-gen too - Black/White. This wire colour is used as the common 12 volt feed for anything which needs a 12 volt source all the time the ignition switch is on and the Engine Stop switch is on.
The PhantomCame across this diagram from the 1986 VFR750 F-G microfiche, don't know if it helps...
That diagram tells me that the '86 VFR750 is also TCI, as it's shared +12 volt power for all four coils.
The PhantomFew more data points.
Not on Fireblades.org, but someone did it fairly simply on a Blade... no mention of how long it lasted though.
http://www.rrzone.co...72191#post72191
I found someone who switched to COP on a FZR600 and went on to rack up 15,000 miles on the bike with no problems:
http://www.fzronline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3187
And his how-to:
Both of those write ups are for 4 cyl, 2 coil bikes. The vfr is 4 cyl, 4 coil.
kaldekSEBSPEEDkaldekSEBSPEEDVeefer800CanuckHow does one measure the impedance value then?
You'd need to test and compare current flow of both coil types somehow.
Isn't this the one case where you can just measure the resistance across the terminals of the coil, and the result is indeed the impedance? I know all our talk about resistors in series wasn't right now, but isn't this measurement an exception?
No, there is more to it. Something about electromagnetic something or other. I wish Bernie would get back online to help out with this.
That might mean that the CBR stick coils - even though the measured resistance is wrong - could be just fine for our purposes...
Or not. I'm not willing to try it unless I understand it. If someone else wants to go ahead and guinea pig their 4th gen, I'll be the first to applaud good results. I also promise I won't laugh if it all goes horribly wrong.
I'd definitely be up for experimenting with them, but its going to be awhile before my 4th gen is back together.
Its funny, I actually ran these same coils years ago on my Audi urS4 without doing any testing or comparing of the stock vs. stick coils. The car ran great on them right up until the day I sold it!
I would like everyone to note this statement when discussing impedence and resistance. Oem's have been using resistor packs inline with injectors since the 80's (probably not anymore) and megasquirt users already know this trick to use low impedance injectors with the fairly low current stock drivers. Injectors have coils, too:)
I have been trying to figure out how to turn the stock cdi's sinking "output" to a sourcing one (at 5v for the bosch 4 coil ignitor, seen here http://www.microsquirt.info/Bosch_211.htm) but havnt spent alot of time at it tbh. If we could beef up the transistors in our stock ignition module this wouldnt be required. Obviously this statement only counts for the 3rd/4th gen.
Ok, if someone can tell me how to wire this up in plain english, I'll buy the coils and wiring harness, and be the guinea pig. I just need to know how to make the changes...
douglasthecookOk, if someone can tell me how to wire this up in plain english, I'll buy the coils and wiring harness, and be the guinea pig. I just need to know how to make the changes...
I may be able to accommodate... I could take my F4i harness and coils and modify them so that you can plug them in on your bike and test them. If you don't explode and die, and nothing fails on your bike, then you can replace my parts.
Since we're starting with 4 coils and using 4 cops, we could just plug them in directly like the oem stuff. Changing from that is the part of this mod that I don't fully understand and as such am hesitant about.
[image: View Post]flyguyeddy, on 09 March 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:
Youll be sinking alot more current is the problem. Your going from around 3 ohms to less than half of that.[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 09 March 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:
But is it really a problem?[image: View Post]flyguyeddy, on 09 March 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:
Well, thats probably cdi. But i know the mentioned ones are tci. From what i read about the aem coils (and they may be different) you can use them as tci OR cdi.[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 09 March 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:
[image: View Post]douglasthecook, on 09 March 2012 - 02:25 AM, said:
Ok, if someone can tell me how to wire this up in plain english, I'll buy the coils and wiring harness, and be the guinea pig. I just need to know how to make the changes...[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 09 March 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:
[image: View Post]flyguyeddy, on 09 March 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:
Well, thats probably cdi. But i know the mentioned ones are tci. From what i read about the aem coils (and they may be different) you can use them as tci OR cdi.[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on 12 March 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:
Likely a low voltage (5V-12V) pulse/signal to a high (200V-400V) voltage pulse.[image: View Post]Veefer800Canuck, on 12 March 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:
Heathens?[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on 12 March 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:
No, that is one of the differences between CDI (Capacitive Discharge Ignition) and TCI (Transistorised Coil Ignition). CDI uses a charged capacitor (charged by an inverter) that is being discharged over the primary coil. A 'CDI spark' lasts not as long as a "TCI spark' but is more powerful, and is more suitable for high rpm engines. A TCI coil is charged by charging it with a current. It takes some time to charge the primary coil due to impedance, this is called dwell time. It also takes longer to discharge: the spark lasts longer.[image: View Post]douglasthecook, on 21 March 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:
After looking at the below thread, one of the guys installed these in his '94 CBR 900RR. I doubt those bikes have a TCI box, so we'll see if I get a response to the question that I posted up there...[image: View Post]flyguyeddy, on 21 March 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:
900rr is tci ignition.[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 21 March 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:
Hello, I am interested in upgrading my bike's ignition system. I have previously installed your products on another of my Honda bikes.Leaving something out is so much easier than trying to fit it somewhere...
Factory coils, at least on a 3rd gen (which is my entire scope of knowledge on any vfr, my gen 4 frame i bought as just a frame, nothing else) take up alot of space and make it difficult to relocate for fairings. I would imagine it would be very difficult to hide em on a fightered bike. Cop > factory imho.
Edit: this post was full of spelling fail.
Edited April 1, 2012 by flyguyeddyAny updates on this? So far the only concern i have is if the front coils will clear the radiator.
same here...
spose i should pull my finger out n try em......
edit..
As expected... no fit... fan is in the way....
Remove the fan??? i dont see any fans on the hrc manual for the rc30 rads..
might b ok with an electric water pump keeping things moving when stationary?
Trim the fan blades? trim the fan surround also?
Any smaller cops? these are just over 3cm proud of the head.
Would like to do a dyno run with and without the snorkel.
I have my front coils here in place of the snorkel at the moment.
At least with the rear coils gone i can slip my battery in their space.
Its a start
Edited April 9, 2012 by kgsmotorcyclesHiw bad is the interference? The fan shroud can be trimmed a little bit i imagine
With cop in and rad pulled back down sitting on the rim of fan, it is 25mm from the bolt hole to the fixing support arm on the bottom left of rad. OK new fixing bracket anyway. The fan blades still hit the cop by about 10m first so will want a trim of at least 25mm as well? Not sure if am happy about wheel clearance now either.
Am thinking either go with standard coils hidden up front...
or
Remove fan.. not like am going to be touring anytime soon.. saves cutting shit up..should leave me with space for cops then..am sure fan only ever came on in the hottest of weather and when in built up traffic for long periods and combos of both..warm yes, traffic no. Less bodywork means better air flow...
hmmmmm perfect excuse to get on with that water pump
who dares trim some fan tips, make a longer rad block arm.. maybe trim some more off the front fender? Its a close call with rad sitting forward so....
But they fit without the fan tho, right?
like a glove,
the fan feels 3kg, necessary evil?
fan is history...
just waiting on a blade loom to chop, then plug her in to test.
Any thoughts on how removing the fan will affect the vfr under normal conditions?
Unless it's a trackbike, don't do it.
Could maybe sub in a smaller fan at least?
I am already having to tuck the rad in as far as possible to allow wheel clearance with my short forks.
why not?
you always have your expansion tank to tell you how hot things are.. if it starts to steam and boil.. stop... simple.
wont happen unless in mostly town riding conditions.
Thing is you have to be on the case all the time. Take your eye off the ball and things can get hot ...only if you leave your engine running unattended or going nowhere.
2 reasons why not - my bike will not be track only, and my future plans include things that will make it run hotter than any stock motor.
running hotter? how about bigger rads?
if running the fan all the time then where is the rescue cooling when stationary etc?
under normal conditions theres minimal risk especially for looked at specials
Let's see if you get some good spark first and then we can figure out what to do about the rest of the affected stuff.
By the time I'm done with my 4th gen, it will have all sorts of crazy revisions done to it.
So Seb... When are we gonna see a build thread for that highly modified 4th gen?
+1
jeremy77So Seb... When are we gonna see a build thread for that highly modified 4th gen?
Full build thread after it's finished.
Yes, most important is the decent spark.... Is there another solution other than fan removal to fit the front COPs?
Considering removal of the plastic guard between carbs and frame, so carbs hide behind lighter rad only.
Then add the snorkel again, if if gives better power...? Only the dyno will tell there. But the option is there again unlike before where i had 2 coils in the snorkels place..
Soon as loom turns up only time will tell if i have to revert to standard coils. :huh:
Even when i do plug her in this week i still have a clutch to add then the oil, then tinker the main loom before testing.
Especially checking the fuel reserve light as it was temperamental before. Essential as i intend to run the bike in endurance races.
Maybe some1 else will jump in before me with them running?
So far things are looking surprisingly good. (except no window on my clutch :tour: )
SEBSPEEDCould maybe sub in a smaller fan at least?
I am already having to tuck the rad in as far as possible to allow wheel clearance with my short forks.
Is there room in front of the radiator for a pusher fan, reverse polarity and the fan will turn opposite direction? Some fans will do that in cars.
karhawkSEBSPEEDCould maybe sub in a smaller fan at least?
I am already having to tuck the rad in as far as possible to allow wheel clearance with my short forks.
Is there room in front of the radiator for a pusher fan, reverse polarity and the fan will turn opposite direction? Some fans will do that in cars.
You would need a different fan blade as well.
I wouldn't do it for two reasons:
- cosmetics (will probably look horrible)
- fan motor will be very exposed to elements
Not to mention it will be blocking airflow when you're moving.
flyguyeddy900rr is tci. All coils share a positive switched feed and ignition module grounds the coils. As does almost all honda street bikes (with the exception of the vtr1000 and the rvt1000, as stated earlier, which are cdi).
If this is in fact the case, shouldn't this mean this mod is possible on the VFR, and should be fairly easy???
SEBSPEEDI found his thread, which sheds some light on the effects of lower impedance/higher current:
http://www.rrzone.co...ires-WHOOO-HOOO!
And I fired off this email to Accel's tech help desk.
Hello, I am interested in upgrading my bike's ignition system. I have previously installed your products on another of my Honda bikes.
I am unsure if any of your products fit my 1996 VFR750F application. This bike has a 4 cylinder engine, and it uses 4 ignition coils which have a primary resistance of 3.2 ohms.
Please tell me which of your coil products would fit my needs.
Thank you,
Did you ever get a response from Accel or Dynatek, Dynojet and Bazzaz? I'm still wanting to do this mod, but have to replace my ECU, as it died at Spa last Monday, and that's my priority right now...While troubleshooting to find the culprit of my no-spark issue, we discovered that the pulse generator was only sending .8v to the ECU. Since my ECU is dead, I wasn't able to find out what the output voltage was supposed to be.
Well, one ECU is on your way now......
Pls do not fry it ok? :laugh:
Accel simply replied to say that they do not offer any products for this VFR.
I didn't put out any other inquiries.
DutchyWell, one ECU is on your way now......
Pls do not fry it ok? :laugh:
Nope, frying is bad, I prefer a nice saute or braise!!! Thanks for the help, I'll let you know when I get it, and what the outcome is.
SEBSPEEDAccel simply replied to say that they do not offer any products for this VFR.
I didn't put out any other inquiries.
No worries. After I get my bike running again, I already figured out how i'm going to wire them up, I just need to do a little more research on what coils I want to use, as it looks like length is an issue that I hadn't accounted for.
douglasthecookflyguyeddy900rr is tci. All coils share a positive switched feed and ignition module grounds the coils. As does almost all honda street bikes (with the exception of the vtr1000 and the rvt1000, as stated earlier, which are cdi).
If this is in fact the case, shouldn't this mean this mod is possible on the VFR, and should be fairly easy???
Thats what im hoping!
Soon as oil cooler pipes come back shortened and rewelded to help fit different shape oil cooler, can get these COPs tested.
douglasthecookwe discovered that the pulse generator was only sending .8v to the ECU. Since my ECU is dead, I wasn't able to find out what the output voltage was supposed to be.
0,8V is OK. If it is defective, nine out of ten don't produce any voltage at all.
kgsmotorcyclesdouglasthecookflyguyeddy900rr is tci. All coils share a positive switched feed and ignition module grounds the coils. As does almost all honda street bikes (with the exception of the vtr1000 and the rvt1000, as stated earlier, which are cdi).
If this is in fact the case, shouldn't this mean this mod is possible on the VFR, and should be fairly easy???
Thats what im hoping!
Soon as oil cooler pipes come back shortened and rewelded to help fit different shape oil cooler, can get these COPs tested.
Let see some pics of your oil cooler setup, I'm nearly at that point with mine as well.
Well, yes today a stage further. I have the cooler fittings ready for clean up and paint.
The original pipes were cut and shut. Altho now i think i made a big effort over nothing as the fittings into the original cooler might fit into the head and can be used once persuaded to bend in the correct position. Another day, another quick trial fit?
After pulling off the starter motor, i found access a lot better. Will clean some of that grime off before the next stage.
A quick test fit.
Just tarting things up now really. A little scotch bright and silver spray should clean things up.
The slipper clutch was very easy to install.
Especially with the help of a hand held battery hammer drill for easy center nut removal/fit..(Disclamer- no sorry you have to do it the proper way with that silly clutch tool)
£579 + VAT if you want one. Get from me, delivery is next day.
I spoke with the guy who runs Sigma on Friday as a mate wanted one for his VTR.
He was in Spain at the moto GP and informed me he has stock ready to go when hes back this week.
Full factory back up so no worries if there is a hiccup!
I may be interested in a slipper eventually, I remember my 5th gen having a lot of engine braking. Good to know that there's one that fits and that I can buy it from you!
I like the oil cooler setup as well, I'll probably be running the stock cooler for now until I get more of the bike sorted. Really jealous of your 2 bros. full system!
Ok, after doing some thinking on the issue of the ECU/TCI/CDI boxes after mine decided to stop working...from what I was able to gather in troubleshooting my VFR, it looks like the ECU just makes sure the parameters are correct for firing the plugs, and sending the signal to the coil. It ensures that the bike is in neutral with the kickstand down, or kickstand up, and in first gear before it tells the coils to fire. I didn't take a voltage reading from the output side of the ECU, as I wanted to remove the donor ECU so it didn't get fried as well. To me, it looks like the ECU is more of a go-no go/input-output device, than a voltage regulator for the coils. I'm going to get an ECU or two, and some coils from eBay, and see what happens here shortly, now that I've confirmed that my ECU did die. Wit hall that being said, please correct me if I'm incorrect, as I really don't see how the ECU is a player in all of this, other than ensuring that the parameters are correct to send a signal to the coils to fire. The Pulse Generator tells the ECU what plug to fire, the ECU checks to make sure that it's ok to fire the plug and send the appropriate signal, but this is just my guess after doing alot of troubleshooting on my VFR...
douglasthecookThe Pulse Generator tells the ECU what plug to fire,
The pulse generator is attached to the crankshaft so the (TCI) ICM only knows the crankshaft position, not what stroke it is on (in the 4 stroke cycle), for that you also need a camshaft position sensor or something similar and I can't find one in the wiring diagram. That means the ICM with one coil per spark plug is not a wasted spark type of system, but it does fire the plugs twice per cycle, not a big deal.
As mentioned before, when decribing the differences between TCI & CDI (reply #73),a TCI coil takes some time to charge: dwell time. The ICM takes care of this and uses the TPS signal to calculate engine rpm so it knows exactly when to start charging the coil so it reaches maxmimum current at the time of ignition. with a TCI system, ignition occurs when the charging current of the primary coil is suddenly switched off.
What can happen when you replace the coil for one that has different specs like a lower primary coil resistance and/or lower impedance is that the ICM will put more current through the coil and may overheat.
Below is a sketch of what the charging current curve may look like. Top is with the regular coil, bottom is a COP with the specs as decsribed above: less resistance and lower impedance. Due to the lower impedance the current will rise quicker and due to the lower resistance the maximum current will reach a higher level and possibly will reach that higher level "long" before ignition. This can possibly overheat both the coil and the ICM. The hatched surface below the curve represents the amount of energy the ICM has to put out.
I am not saying that you will fry your ICM, but when it happens you now at least know of one possible cause of why it happened :biggrin:
Isn't there a shop on base where you can work on your bike with maybe the assistance of someone who can operate a scope? You could swap one coil for a COP and then compare the currents between the two. Electronics can withstand higher operating temperature for some time, use that when testing the COPS by only using one COP at a time and swapping it between the cilinders.
Btw, are 6th gen COPS not an option? It looks like they have a very low profile which can be useful behind the radiator, and maybe they fit the 3rd-4th gen head well.
good point.. any one try the vfr800 cops?
Edit: am all wired in now with cop's, just starter motor to finish before oil, battery then test em out...
Thanks for being the guinea pig! My wiring harness is all stripped down to the basics for ignition/starter, just waiting to see if the cop's are going to work before I finish it up!
Unfortunately, we don't really have any place on abse that has the necessary equipment to do this type of testing. Would it also be possible to install some type of in-line resistor or diode prior to the CoP? Plus my ECU already died once, don't know why though, perhaps the issues experienced on the way to and from Mugello contributed??? This is one reason why I'd like to change coils, to ensure that doesn't happen again...
With putting a resistor in line with the cop you not only decrease the current but also the voltage and the total impedance also changes. I am not sure by what amount a voltage drop influences the spark. You would need high power resistors like these. Again, starting out with just one cop and resistor might be worth a try.
Hard to say if the overheating coils were the cause of the ICM getting fried. After the roadside repair it ran great, didn't it?
It felt like it had a miss recently, don't remember if it felt that way last year, but that could be attributed to the ECU going bad I suppose. I did look at all the plugs, and they looked fine, not running rich or lean. I'll probably buy another ECU one of these days once I get the wiring for the CoPs, and give it a shot...I just need to get a second ECU first, as I don't want to fry the one that I just bought...
hey,
So i was thinking on the fan situation. Now its all dependent on how what the CFM is for the stock fan, but....couldn't you use 12v DC muffin fans (the kind found in your desktop) ? I know the fans are designed to work in 100 degrees C +...and they do make water proof and dust proof fans...not to mention the large selection of fan sizes and shapes, you could run two or more depending on total CFM needed. idk just an idea...
Matt
Using a desktop fan is a no. They may be skinny enough, but unless you crank the volts up on them, they won't spin anywhere near as fast to make any impact on the temperatures.
There in and running....... After 2 mins start-up hiccups... full power rev with throttle became no problem to find....
Track time this Saterday will tell if things are up to spec.
Sounds spot on... :tour:
Excellent. What did you do about the fan interference?
SEBSPEEDExcellent. What did you do about the fan interference?
Didn't he remove the fan?
yes, the fans gone.... now approx another 2 kilo lighter!
Had a small water pump arrive this week so will hopefully run the engine a touch cooler when plumbed in..
Still need to tinker with my temp guage as its not reading anything yet...
Same as the reserve fuel lamp...
V4 RossoBtw, are 6th gen COPS not an option? It looks like they have a very low profile which can be useful behind the radiator, and maybe they fit the 3rd-4th gen head well.
6th-gen COPs are three-wire plugs. They remain permanently fed by a common 12 volt source and the ECU sends a trigger command to the coil which causes it to charge up and then fire. The "ignition control module" is inside the coil, so there is no risk of the coil drawing too much current and damaging the ECU; it can only damage itself (the primary windings and transistor).
I suppose the real question is - how does the trigger circuit work and could it be connected to the 4th-gen ignition module? I don't know enough to say why it would be possible or impossible.
Im gonna touch back on the fan thing, Im not sure how much air a motorcycle fan moves, but a car fan will move somewhere in the range of 500 cfm. here is a link to a 12v computer fan that looks like it might work if used two of them. that would total 444 cfm. That to me seems like sufficient air flow.
http://www.sofasco.c...ial/d12738.html
I would think that two of them would fit behind the rad (side by side, 5"x5"x1.5") providing the needed air movement (444 cfm). or at least one(222 cfm). I mean something has gatta be better then nothing right?
if someone knows how much air our stock fan moves, this would help find some real alternatives to making the COP work
matt
Edited June 20, 2012 by manapuaman1121I was looking at pushing the top of the radiator out an inch or so, just pivoting it forward. I know I will have to notch the inner cowl to accomodate this, but that shouldn't be an issue. It should also be a fairly straight-forward mod, just fab up some new top mounts, and that's it, in theory anyway...
Why not keep the standard coils if you still have the standard fairings if it means more farkeling? The weight saving is only about 1/2kg max for the new COPs and you have plenty of space to hide them still...
I plan to put my forks in full lock either direction, then move the rad up as far as possible without interfering with the steering lock. USD's really cut down on steering travel!
Have you not trimmed the plastic rad cover in the relevant places for more lock?
Like I said... My forks are pretty short... 929/954 comes in around 724mm, 1KRR comes in closer to 694mm before I began mods. That's over an inch shorter!
So about a 10mm rise, if the maths worked out linear on the rear shock, should work out about right keeping your forks flush with yokes?
Yes the turn circle is pants with these upside downs, but manageable with practice.
Too much rise on the rear and the shock spring hits the swing arm.
The benchmark on all these mods is the standard VFR itself, if only tuned 7mm up on forks etc to suit. Very good at both low and high speeds.
I still suggest in all my miles testing so far, the best forks are right way round as they offer more flex and feedback.
Like the 98/99 fireblade forks used on my 3rd gen. Can really attack entry to and exits from corners with them, TT quality high speed stability in bucket loads! I did run an EMC replacement VFR shock which worked very well, with especially good feedback.
But im still testing on my 4th gen with the upside downs. Things are definitely getting better than when i started... gradually.
The rear shock prob wants a new spring and valving to suit i suggest.
Or even a dedicated vfr upgraded shock, unlike the untuned spaced 929 ohlins i get by OK with now.
I have done some extensive modifications on both ends of the bike.
And what results did you get from the modifications or experiments.. what failures?
Are there any definitive improvements over any other mod?
Whats the feedback like on the road and track compared to standard set up in your tests?
Any dyno tests with the COPs anyone?
I have done some extensive modifications on both ends of the bike.
And what results did you get from the modifications or experiments.. what failures?
Are there any definitive improvements over any other mod?
Whats the feedback like on the road and track compared to standard set up in your tests?
Any dyno tests with the COPs anyone?
Unfortunately I can't answer any of those questions as I have yet to ride it, and I have only a small amount of time riding a stock 4th gen.
I feel i must add for anyone else happy and skilled to modify their bike that,
I would NOT recommend any modifications over a standard Honda VFR!
The VFR is the best bike in the world as it stands.. have you not read the news?
Some mods do give very different handling characteristics than one would expect as normal without some set up knowledge and experience.
Exactly what, after sitting on a vfr for well over 300,000miles, i have been looking for.
Apart from road directions, memorized from a map or experience, what else do you think i was thinking of cruising all those miles?
Even i had some weird moments with running wide out of corners onto the wrong side of the road at pace! What first adding upside down forks did for me until i tuned the setup to bring things into predictable ride ability. Nothing that was dangerous or caused accidents thankfully. But also not my first vfr/blade mod!
Luckily i have been testing on the local, closed circuit race track and then TT race course second time round as bike was still insured and taxed. Good predictable road surfaces with lots of space and fairly quiet... never pushed things unless 100% comfortable. Which is why i dont push on the track 100% yet.
Im about 75-80% at the moment ere with this latest upside down mod. I cant yet push 100% coming out of bends or going into them yet. Have only just got to grips with high speed chatter.
Unlike my last 3rd gen build which was hit it all i dare and she will pay me back with feedback, grip and fun even using less track oriented rubber at any speeds. Maxed out 140+ for long stretches was comfy!
Real feedback is avaliable when things work well. Which is what i got from my first right way round fireblade front end and rear replacement sport vfr shock.
But that was not as simple as it sounds in reality. Easy for me now yes. But a few hoops to jump through first am afraid, especially for the uninitiated reading our mod forums.
(yer right :wheel: )
I can't wait to post my build thread... but I made a promise that I would finish the bike before I showed it this time. I built this one starting with just a bare motor!
All the while i am scraping my knees round almost every other bend i gotta say yes the COPs are working just fine after another mega track day on Sunday! So is the wrong 929 rear shock even with wrong spring and valving....
[image: conrod trackday sparks21713.jpeg]
[image: conrod trackday left21713.jpeg]
Come the latter stages of the track day i had given up the foot scraping for knee action instead...
Finally after all these years i change my riding style from Dispatch rider, to race style...
Some days it seems like you are living the motorcycle dream.
Not running them anymore… back to stock coils. They definitely weren't unseated. Did the same thing after uninstalling and reinstalling multiple times. Has your bike always had the "tick over hiccup" or is it more recent. And does it only start happening after the bike is up to operating temp?
Been there from the start for sure..up to operating temps make little difference to the idle.
Well I'm glad they're working well for you! I'm probably imagining things :) Bike sounds sweet by the way!
Anyone still running these? Still running well, or?
Just removed my k8 gsxr1000 cops.
The engine stall at 2000 seems to have gone. The pops have reduced..
Maybe i should have tried the honda cops?...
The plugs were very dirty and got a swift clean and rough re-gap... Poss not firing proper. leaving excess deposits on plug..
looks like engine runs better now... needs a good run out
but got put off my last track day due to rubber gone passed its wear markers, magnesium Dymags might want replacing ..
forks seals have leaked on one side.... were fine last track day, but that was the start of the season... lack of use?
With a big bore done and new wheels ill be looking at £5000.....
not much gonna happen any time soon...
Have seen fully kitted race Triumph triples for about 3500...
hmmmm
Any updates from anyone still running these?
Going for a full service soon and might try the cops again..
Engine blueprint on the cards as i have rebuilt so many boat engines this year, my vfr rebuild should be fun, saving a fortune...
Spark still running poor (im down 1 pot) after putting genuine coils back on end of last year...
so....more updates be interesting from any1 else who has tried the stick coils.
Update re the Mitsibishi COPs:
The Mitsu COPs (centre, below) are very similar to the Denso ones, but longer than the short Densos:
[image: 20170701_170355x.thumb.jpg.d0e49e9040927b8ac1eba556478a2102.jpg]
The Mitsu grommets (left, below) are larger than the big Denso grommets...
[image: 20170701_170454x.thumb.jpg.73ffdae894624a8ab169e3d2e58e374b.jpg]
...but still don't really fit the RC36 valve cover holes properly:
[image: 20170701_164058x.thumb.jpg.b16c6a31889ef664018f1dbb339951ce.jpg]
The photo above shows the Mitsu grommet crammed into the RC36 valve cover (on a short Denso COP), which sort of works, but without modification of the grommet the COP is actually not fully engaged with the threads on the top of the spark plug. The grommet would need to be opened up to allow the COP to sit deeper within it. Maybe the "new style" short Denso COP would fit better? Hello, eBay...
Ciao,
JZH, 7/8/2017 at 0:39 PMMaybe the "new style" short Denso COP would fit better? Hello, eBay...
...and goodbye, eBay. The "new style" short Denso COPs are about the same length as the Mitsu COPs, so really aren't suitable for the RC36. So, if I want to do this I'll need to buy three more short, old style Denso COPs and modify the Mitsu grommets or figure out some other way to seal the COPs. Anyone want to buy a set of four, nice-condition, new style short Denso COPs?
Ciao,
No thanks, I'll wait till you tell me which ones actually work and then buy those :tongue:
I was running the GSXR COPs on my rear two cylinders, but removed them after a week, as it started to run really rough, and backfire. I e-installed the original coils and have not had any issues since. I am curious to know if my rough running was because I was only running 2 new style, and 2 old style, so perhaps resistance was different? It ran fine for the first few days, but then got progressively worse, and again, all symptoms went away once I switched back to OEM. I did not install any resistors inline, or otherwise, the way I had them wired up was to the original coil spade terminals, that way I could easily go back to stock. I am still very interested in utilizing this style of coil, but it appears that more research/field testing needs to be done. I was also running stock spec NGK spark plugs, NOT iridium plugs.
23 hours ago, The PhantomNo thanks, I'll wait till you tell me which ones actually work and then buy those :tongue:
You are obviously a patient man, Murray... :wink:
Ciao,
The recent 5th gen COP thread revival caught my eye, so I thought I would update this thread as well. I have not yet tested anything with a running engine, so the "resistor question" will have to wait for a while, yet...
As far as physical fitness goes, as mentioned in August, I did acquire a nice set of '08 CBR1000RR Denso 5150 COPs from eBay US (where they were "cheap, cheap, cheap", as Johnny, Mark, Denny and Peter might say), and these are just slightly shorter than the R6 Mitsus pictured above. However, after some more fiddling around with them and the Mitsu grommets, I think I can use the 5150s after all. They fit the spark plugs perfectly and appear to clear my radiator.
There are two obvious issues, however. First, the Mitsu grommet ID is larger than the Denso COP OD, perhaps by 1-1.5mm, so the grommets don't really seal. That could be addressed by wrapping the COPs with some sort of thin shim material, or even adhesive tape. (Or maybe yet another use for large diameter polyolefin heat shrink tubing? Yes, I like that idea.) The other problem is that the grommet doesn't quite butt up against the head of the COP when crammed into the RC36 valve cover (as in the picture above), so in theory the grommet could work itself free of the valve cover unless it is somehow prevented from doing so. To take up the space, I think I could just fit an appropriately sized o-ring. Job done!
[EDIT: How about heat shrink tubing shrunk over an o-ring, thus creating a rather OEM-like ridge for the Mitsu grommet to fit to?]
But, this only works because I happen to have purchased a bunch of parts, including a full set of 5150s as well as a full set of Mitsubishi COPS, so I have four "extra" Mitsu grommets to use. Anyone else would have to buy two full sets of COPs in order to get one hybrid set to use on their RC36. OTOH, full sets of COPs seem to be plentiful and not expensive on eBay at the moment.
Note also that a 3rd gen running OEM fairings will still require the use of two of the bike's OEM coil brackets, because the side fairings mount onto them, so the most aesthetic benefit from fitting COPS would be to bikes not utilising OEM fairings.
Ciao,
JZH, did you ever get it running on COPs?
I got some 2016 CBR COPS from ebay with a harness for my 3rd gen build. At $35, i figured I'd give it a chance.
So, the resistance of the OEM coils is 3ohm and the COPS are 1.5 ohm.
I wonder if adding a 1.5 ohm resistor will do the trick?
There was also a discussion of the old coils having a capacitor built in and the COPs not?
Can a capacitor be spliced in as well?
I could be mistaken, but I was under the impression that a coil is a type of capacitor, very well could be wrong, but if it is, I do not think wiring an additional capacitor in-line would be necessary. Interesting idea on the resistor though. I did run the COPs for one week, but then removed them, as the bike developed a nasty idle, and ran really rough once under way. Installing the stock coils remedied the issue, but your idea does make me wonder if a 1.5 ohm resistor would do the trick.
I’ll give a resistor a try. Will report back.
Rice, 10/6/2018 at 2:26 PMJZH, did you ever get it running on COPs?
I got some 2016 CBR COPS from ebay with a harness for my 3rd gen build. At $35, i figured I'd give it a chance.
So, the resistance of the OEM coils is 3ohm and the COPS are 1.5 ohm.
I wonder if adding a 1.5 ohm resistor will do the trick?
There was also a discussion of the old coils having a capacitor built in and the COPs not?
Can a capacitor be spliced in as well?
I'm afraid that bike hasn't run with or without the COPs...
ISTR some discussion somewhere involving the way the coils were wired, on different Hondas, and lost sparks, which could explain why the COPs have different resistance ratings. Good luck with your testing!
Ciao,
JZH
If mr Ohm isn’t lying, I’d need a 96W resistor on each coil? Assuming that coils get 12v. That’s a lot of resistor...
Will rewire the thing to relocate the fuse box and the headlight relay(s) under the seat, get it running, relocate the stock coils under the tank, get it running again, and than will get back to cops.
They are mighty sexy things.
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