I'm looking for all the data I can find on an undertail exhaust setup on a 5th generation (1998 specifically) faster red viffer.
I -know- I saw a pic of one here about a week or two ago, but can't seem to locate the thread it was in nor the user who happened to actually implement such a monster.
I'm looking to find out how difficult an install it was, as well as what exhaust system was used and how much customizing really had to be done. Not to mention any -buttstats- on any heat transfer to the pillion seat/tail, and clearence issues if any.
I am in LOVE with the look of the undertail and am working on a personla feasibility study to see if I can indeed do this to my own 5th gen. :thumbsup: :beer: :wheel:
What part of RSM are you in? I used to live in the Archstone apartments at Las Flores... I was the Executive Chef at Cafe tu Tu Tango in the Block at Orange...
vfrmonkey, Apr 26 2005, 06:23 PMWhat part of RSM are you in? I used to live in the Archstone apartments at Las Flores... I was the Executive Chef at Cafe tu Tu Tango in the Block at Orange...
LOL! Wow! What a small word! My wife and I are just off Alma Aldea near the "Town Center". I know of the ArchStones and even dined at Cafe Tu Tu Tango a few times. Gotta say, you know your food :)
vfrmonkey, Apr 26 2005, 08:23 PMWhat part of RSM are you in? I used to live in the Archstone apartments at Las Flores... I was the Executive Chef at Cafe tu Tu Tango in the Block at Orange...
Monkey, have you opened your restaurant yet ? :beer: kevin
Cold beers aside (well...not too much aside, I do like to have one nearby :beer: ) I talked to VFRMonkey (Brad) through PMs about this exact issue last week...'cuz I, like you guys, am VERY intereste din doing one. I'll try to help Monkey out by posting the text of those PMs. It covers most of what you need to know. Hope you don't mind Brad.
My Initial PM to Monkey: I'm very interested in doing something similar to my bike, but I have a few questions I was hoping you could help me with.
Would the specific can you used have to be used (and which was it)? Or any can that's the same length? Is there a shorter can that would protrude less from the tail? Would the less protrusion have any ill-effects (assuming a slight downturn at the outlet)? Would you have to use a high-mount to get the largest part of the intermediate pipe, and just add custom bits to it or have one made from scratch? Can you have more of the intermediate pipe you used made? Would it be possible to squeeze a pair of pipes in there (like the Wolf system)? I like the dual-outlet look. Which cans could you use for that? Would the duals adversely affect the necessary backpressure in the exhaust or could that be compensated for by custom mapping my Power Commander?
Sorry for sounding like a three-year old with the machine gun questions.� I'd just really like to do an undertail, but had accepted that $1,000+ for the Wolf was outta the question.� So now I'm all excited.
Thanks in advance, Jamie
Monkey's Response (there were pictures of his mods, too, but I dont have access to them to post): First, this project was more involved than it looked on paper. I wouldn't recommend it if you don't have much fabrication experience with fiberglass or a lot of patience. Otherwise, it is completely doable. 1) Would the specific can you used have to be used (and which was it)? Or any can that's the same length? The can is a TBR aluminum C2 for a Ducati 916/996 that has been shortened 5". I doubt that a shorter can would be feasable - this one is pretty loud. No more stealth re-entries to the neighborhood. I used the Duc can because TBR only has two endcap styles for thier oval cans, the Duc has a striaght tip and all others use a turndown tip. The problem is that the can is on its' side, and the turndown points out to one side and looks ghey. If you already have the TBR can, they will sell you Ducati endcaps (two for around $100). Here's a picture of the mock-up before I cut the can down and with the stock tip: The only way for everything to fit is by cutting out the whole center portion (between subframe rails) of the undertray and molding it out of fiberglass around the can and heat shield:
2) Would you have to use a high-mount to get the largest part of the intermediate pipe, and just add custom bits to it or have one made from scratch? Can you have more of the intermediate pipe you used made? I used the high mount pipe parts because I had them. It was far simpler to reuse the bottom portion of the TBR intermediate pipe because it already had all of the brackets and hardware in place. I think the intermediate pipe will have to be custom, as this was a one-off and no jig was made. But be careful - finding someone to make the pipe was a two-week ordeal. Make sure to visit the shop in person first and verify that they have the ability to do it and do it right he first time - the TBR intermediate pipe costs $75... * I am currently focused on opening my second restaurant, but after that I may judge interest in putting this exhaust on the market as a kit. If so, then I would contract a production run of the intermediate pipe and sell them...
3) Would it be possible to squeeze a pair of pipes in there (like the Wolf system)? I like the dual-outlet look. Which cans could you use for that? Would the duals adversely affect the necessary backpressure in the exhaust or could that be compensated for by custom mapping my Power Commander? The can (s) you use are limited by the amount of space between the frame rails. Newer bikes that have dual undertails use a backbone style subframe that goes between the pipes (6th gen VFR), and this isn't and issue. If I had to do it all over again, I think I would read the patent info on Flowmaster cans (sound wave cancellation properties) and try to construct a 3/4 scale copy out of aluminum stock. The can would have a rectangular cross section, maximizing the vertical distance between the top of the tire and bottom of the can. That way, the inlet can be where you want it, and the outlets can be whatever you want.
I don't think much retuning would be required at all. The shortend can is pretty much offset by the extra length and bends in the intermediate pipe...
Second PM to Brad: Patience I have, but experience with fiberglass, I do not.� Constructing your own 3/4 scale muffler?� Wow...sounds like you've got lots more enginerring/construction/machining experience that I have ever thought of.� That might be a bit more than I'm really comfortable tackling, unless I could come up with an extra underseat pan in case I screw the one up. If you DO come up with a kit, I for one would be VERY interested in it.� And I would think lots of others would, too.� Especially since the only other undertail option is the $1,400 Wolf.� And of course, you know, I might be convinced to be a tester for your first version...maybe... So If you made your own muffler, would it be wider but shorter and less thick?� To use more of the space under the tail, but not show so much? Just wondering. Oh, and as for loud...I've got a Jardine on mine now, and my wife can hear me come into the neghborhood if she's in the yard, and we live about three blocks back.� So I feel ya' on the lack-of-stealth thing. Thanks for the answers.� And keep me informed if you start making one. Jamie
Brad's response (tongue in cheek) Let the record state that when I say I, often times I mean they...
My third and final PM So lemme see if I get what your saying...that an exhaust made with similar sections like the FlowMaster with the V things...would have enough noise cancellation qualities to work?� How exactly does a car muffler work killing sound without the 'packing' that a bike muffler has?� Is the bike muffler just pretty much a straight tube through the can, with packing around it?� If a FlowMaster-styled, custom built 'can' was done...it could obviously be built to exactly the width between the rails, and concave on the bottom for extra clearance for the tire, yes?� But would it still have to have some sort of packing?
Does the heat shield just have to be a piece of metal with some heat tape or some such on the pipe side?� Or does it have to have some sort of heat material in there?� And could you simply wrap the shield in that header tape stuff I've seen used on some custom Harleys? I'm starting to wonder if I can't find somebody around here to experiment with making the can.� I know a guy that runs a local muffler shop that's doing some odd-ball work for me on another project right now ( astreet-legal replica NASCAR Tbird with a fake rollcage built out of exhaust tubing).� It could maybe happen, if I could give him some specifics.
And I think I understand what you meant about reading the patents...don't wanna get into a copyright infringement suit.� But if it's not being used to take business away from the original patenter (and it's not since FlowMaster doesn't make bike pipes), is it still an issue?
I appreciate any help you can gimme.� Again, I don't mean to sound like an over-inquisitive toddler.� I just get excited when I see a do-able project.
Thanks again, Jamie
And Brad's response: A bike muffler is basically a glasspack, like the old Thrush mufflers from the seventies and eighties. It uses a perforated core and fiberglass packing to dissipate sound. The Flowmaster uses special shapes internally to reflect sound waves into themselves, effectivly cancelling the sound with out causing much backpressure.
As long as you don't sell a product, infringe away...
Stay away from header wrap, they get really masty and degrade when they get wet...
I used the heat sheild from a CBR600RR, and shortened it a couple of inches. The best insulator in the world is air, make sure there is enough air gap between the can and the heat shield. The shield serves two purposes: 1) to "reflect" heat 2) to act as a heat sink for the air in the air gap. The seat on my bike gets warm, but not as warm as my neighbors' 6th gen with dual Microns... Another thing to bear in mind is that the volume of the can will affect not only back pressure, but sound as well. Think about how a speaker enclosure is tuned to reproduce sound across a given spread of octaves; big exhaust companies have entire divisions dedicated to make sure a performance exhaust "sounds right" A great case in point is my neighbors' G35 Coupe. He put on Stillen headers, test pipes and cat-back exhaust, and it sounds like CRAP! Completely high pitched, rice burner gross. I told him to have resonators built with a larger volume and replace his test pipes with them. More volume = lower pitched sound...
To me, it sounds like a helluva job. Maybe several of us could get together, each on doing seperate parts and come up with a system.
Stay with it fellas, 11:45pm and I'm still working on restaurant stuff... I did a whole write-up about 2 days before the great server crash of 2004, pics and all. I will rewrite the whole thing after we get the doors open in Suwanee...
BTW, the Monkey just spent a week at Traxxion Dynamics being thier new AK-20 precision cartridge test mule for the 41mm forks and setting up an Ohlins shock for the VFR. I spent a full day with Max McAllistar dialing in the setup... It's very good...Really good...Stupid good...
His shop was immaculate - he did the front geometry for the Confederate Wraith - they had one in the shop for some revisions prior to production, as well as an HRC factory CBR1000RR with ALL the goodies and a vintage Kawi 3cyl 750 2 stroke death machine...
vfrmonkey, Apr 27 2005, 07:50 PM Stay with it fellas, 11:45pm and I'm still working on restaurant stuff... I did a whole write-up about 2 days before the great server crash of 2004, pics and all. I will rewrite the whole thing after we get the doors open in Suwanee...
Monkey... You rock! :thumbsup: While I want to say, "Take your time!", there is another part of me, and probably the rest of the group here that can't wait to see your write up.... in the mean time, a big thanks goes to WarriorRacer#13 for posting the discussions he was privy to and adding a good deal of content ot this thread!
Tons of information to think about just from Warrior's one post! :idea3: I can't imagine what to think once I see Monkey's full write up. So, let it be said, I for one am still hanging in there and waiting eagerly for every bit of information that comes out of this post.
Sadly though, it is looking like this project is best left to those with skills far beyond my own with cash to spare. At this point I just can't justify a $200 expense let alone one upwards of $500 on what can only be described on my end as an esthetic modification (since I really don't need any more "performance" than my 5th gen give out with the stock setup). Mind you, that doesn't mean I won't go down this path in the future... just not in the short term for me... So keep the info coming! :beer:
The Wolf is, of course, the ultimate. But the $1,400 price tag for it is a bit...disconcerting. The custom-built undertail is, in theory, a much less expensive way to achieve the same effect.
WarriorRacer#13, Apr 29 2005, 02:57 AMThe Wolf is, of course, the ultimate. But the $1,400 price tag for it is a bit...disconcerting. The custom-built undertail is, in theory, a much less expensive way to achieve the same effect.
True, guess I got lucky. Scored my slightly used Wolf system on eBay by a guy in the UK. Spent just under $600 for it shipped. While I am a big fan of one off customs, or DIY, it is nice to be able to get the undertail piece and replacement batterybox with the Wolf. You also don't have to know how to weld or find someone to create what you have in your mind as perfect.
oh, and I wanted to add the picture I took of just the parts. May be of some assistance to those wondering what is included and/or thinking of building your own system.
So where does the battery end up going? Other than that, the Wolf doesn't require you to cut the underseatpan at all? Where does the pipe attach at the front of the swingarm? I can see the bracket at the tail end of the cans, but what holds it at the front? How is the noise compared to other aftemarket pipes? Seat get hot? Ever had a problem bottoming the pipes on the tire (I'd heard that was sometimes a problem with the Wolf)?
I'm in Owensboro, KY. I might have to make a trip over to visit you and measure up all your stuff to see if I could fabricate something. Or just get ya' loopy with a couple of Monkey's cold beers and make off with YUR stuff. :P
TBR can: 400, I think TBR Duc endcaps: 115 Custom stainless pipe: 150 Fiberglass supplies: 40 Around 700 bucks, but the pipe came on the bike, so about 300 bucks. In theory, any can will work...
Battery goes in the same spot, just has a new holder.
The plastic underseat pan doesn't get cut or modified, it gets REMOVED. The metal underseat piece replaces it. What you are looking at with the two black pieces on the right and the silver wing looking piece in the middle are what goes under the seat, it all bolts together.
The back of the cans are held up by the winged piece.
The front of the cans plug into the Y pipe and are held up by the pipe. Front of the pipe attaches at the same spot as the stock pipe.
Rear tire comes off without removing or moving anything.
The Seat doesn't get hot, I even keep things under the seat and nothing has melted. :)
The sound of the pipes, well, LOUD :) very nice. I have a sound clip up on my site at http://honda.speedrocket.com/vfr800 I will try to get more sound clips up some day. I had a local redneck once tell me he was confused and thought the bike was really a Mustang. *shrug* It does have alot of growl.
As far as bottoming out, I have not had any problems at all riding solo. I weigh around 170 at my best guess. Riding 2up, I've only had the tire rub once and that was entering a McDonalds once where there was a large bump on the entrance to the parking lot. I do quite a bit of 2up riding as my gf likes to go along. She loves the sound.
As far as the restrictor things you see in the end view of the pipes, they are just that, baffles/restrictors. They are there to cut down the noise. I have since removed them. I was getting alot of popping with the restrictors out, so I ran with restrictors in until this year when I installed a PCII. The sound is a bit more raspy with the baffles in. It is deeper and more throaty with the baffles out. Before the PCII there was a noticeable difference in low end torque. More with baffles in, less with baffles out.
In the parts picture, there are some even more restrictive baffles, I have never used them.
There is a doglink which came with my kit. Previous owner never used it, nor have I. I may try it some day if I get around to ordering the bearings. It is supposed to raise the rear just a bit if experiencing clearance problems. I was considering installing it just to maybe make the bike turn in a bit easier.
I need to take more pictures. I have since removed some of the paint from the wheels and installed new tires (myself).
WarriorRacer: We can meet up sometime, no problem. Though I'm not so sure about you running away with the pipes :) Hope i've covered it all. Feel free to shoot more questions if ya want.
When I had four bikes (a 1987 ZX1000R, two 1989 ZX10s, and a 2000 VFR...don't ask) I was hoarding parts for the three Kawasakis just to try and keep them running. An exhaust system that would have fit any of the Kawasakis was a set of Jardine slip-ons. These slip-ons were almost exact rectangles with a center inlet and center outlet. The great thing about these in particular, was when placed side by side narrow end up, they were able to just fit between the subframe rails on the VFR. I got the Kawasakis out of the garage finally before my last move, and although I'm still selling parts I sold those Jardine slip-ons several years ago.
I would think that once the fabricating of the pipes and undertray are done, that these mufflers would be an easy fit. I'm going to try and see if I can find some pictures online. I bought them for $50 as distressed stock, sold them for $100, but I'm sure they would be very difficult to find now. They were built solid as a rock so I'm sure if they were found used they would be able to be refinished and repacked, good as new. The guy that I sold them to said they were LOUD.
Can't find any pictures on the web or on eBay of the exhaust I had. Apparently those slipons from Jardine went the way of the old F1 or Cobra exhausts.
End of thread · 23 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 23 May 2005
