RVF800RR Build

I'm definitely interested in seeing this one develop.

:lurk: :fing02:

So when it comes to the mechanical aspects of this project, I’ve got my mind pretty much made up! V-4, gear driven cams, single sided swingarm, awesome sounding exhaust, supercharger, etc. But when it comes to the appearance of the bike, whether I want to go naked (street fighter) or fully faired, I’ve been going back and forth.

Most recently I’ve been stuck on the idea of making a small fairing that covers the radiators, and some of the side of the bike, without totally hiding the engine, then using a small naked bike headlight, and a tail big enough to store the majority of the electronics in there. If I ever wanted to do a longer ride, I could either suck it up and deal with the wind, or use one of those universal Twisted Throttle sport windscreens.

So here are some pictures of my motivation for this build:

Buell 1190 Typhon. Very nice radiator set up. A bit of plastic to keep things clean, but still have engine exposed.
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VFR800RR Bioblade. Nice RC51 fairing, and CBR tail. Using as many Honda parts as possible would be nice.
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Nice RC51 with trellis frame.
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2009 CBR1000RR has an incredible looking headlight setup. Also has a very simple and sleek looking tail setup.
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Ducati Streetfighter. R1 Street Tracker. Dirty Desmo . . .
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NICE under-body exhaust system
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As I said before. I’m currently working on and thinking a lot about the exhaust. After more research and reading I’ll update with exhaust info.

I think a trellis frame mostly naked 800 V4 would be really cool!

Speaking of which, I wonder how RedMarque is making out? Haven't heard much from him at all lately.

I think a trellis frame mostly naked 800 V4 would be really cool!

Thats one of the plans! The motorcycle shop up the road does great work, this guy has been building sport bikes, choppers, drag bikes, for YEARS! So not too far back when I went up to talk to him about building a frame, I asked him: What program do you use to design and test your frames before you make them? his responce was: We just look at a drawing and weld em' up! . . . Now I'm sure with as long as he's been in the business, his frames are more than strong enough, I'd probably bet that he can even make his frames strong and relatively light weight! but I would forever worry if I couldn't see a stress test, FEA analysis of the frame. So I told him I'd design it, test it, and when I'm ready, I'll give him the plans!

Speaking of which, I wonder how RedMarque is making out? Haven't heard much from him at all lately.

Is that the owner of that incredible looking red trellis frame RC51!?

No, he was building the tube frame vfr800 with a hossack front end.

Ohh right! Man what a project! That must have required much more engineering than most builds!

:ph34r:

Speaking of which, I wonder how RedMarque is making out? Haven't heard much from him at all lately.

I just dropped him a PM............. :ph34r:

So I have recently been motivated by FslFlint’s build on Custom Fighters to begin my own build thread. I wasn’t planning on making a build thread for this project, because I knew that it was going to progress very very slowly, meaning with the actual creation of the motorcycle. However, there are plenty of things that I work through almost every day with regard to this project. On a daily basis I do research on something related to the bike. Recently it has been trying to teach myself about exhaust back pressure and scavenging theories.

The other reason I wasn’t really planning on making a build thread, is because when I make a post, I am hoping for comments, opinions, or if it’s a question, somebody trying to answer the question. But unfortunately most of the past threads I’ve started (and there aren’t many) lost interest pretty quick. So I am going to treat this build thread as more of a blog than a place to get opinions, comments, and questions answered, although those things are all welcome and greatly appreciated. I’m going to do my best to update this daily. Some days will just be me posting thoughts I had that day, other days I’ll have pictures of my work!
SO! The project is taking a 1998 VFR800, an incredible sport touring bike, and make it more of a sport bike. I’m sure that this idea is going to cause a lot of people to feel the need to hassle me about trying to make the VFR something it is not. Those same people may feel the need to hassle me a bit about some of the CRAZY ideas I have for this build! Your opinion, suggestions, and comments are welcome and appreciated, but please don’t make a big thing of it. I have been thinking about and planning this project for a very long time, and I’m pretty set on doing most of the things that I will bring up.

So a sportier VFR! RVF800RR maybe!? The only great thing about this bike (when looking at it as a sport bike) is the engine. I absolutely LOVE the V-4 with the gear driven cams! My other bike is an RC51 (also has gear driven cams) so that is just something that I HAD to start with: one of Honda’s engines with gear driven cams. Now, as great as that engine is, it could use a bit more power, because today’s 600’s would spank the stock VFR! So I hope to get (down the road) the A&A Performance 5th generation VFR supercharger kit!

The list of things that I hope to do with this bike is quite long, I’ll leave that for some other time. For now I’ll just talk about things, one step at a time.

I began the project by tearing apart the VFR to see what kind of condition it was in. Clearly it had been wrecked based on one of the side mounted radiator “Tabs” on the frame being chipped off. That or Honda sold a bike with a bad casting. But there were other hidden signs of a wreck (probably explains why I got the bike for a good price). As frustrating as this was at the time, I’m now looking at it as a good thing, because it really helped motivated me to begin this enormous project.
So I took off all the fairings, the fairing stay, the tank, disconnected (and labeled) the speedometer/tachometer gauge cluster, I delinked the brakes, flushed the radiators and put new fluid in them (even though I’m considering replacing them with something different) changed the oil, did a LOT of cleaning things up, and then ripped the front end of the bike off!
The first real “Mod” was putting on 2009 Kawasaki ZX-10R forks. This required a Honda SP1 triple clamp set up, with SP1 steering stem bearings. I then made some custom steering stops out of aluminum, and began making a custom Hydraulic Clutch Slave Cylinder. Most recently I have obtained a RC51 front wheel and made a custom stainless steel axle for it to fit in the ZX-10 axle clamp.

For future reference, VFR owners wishing to do a USD Fork Swap, it is commonly said that VFR owners need long forks for the fork swap, but the reason for longer forks isn’t for the forks to simply work on the bike, it’s to allow clip-ons to be mounted above the top triple. It is possible to get shorter (say CBR) forks for the VFR, but you will have to mount clip-ons under the top triple. I misunderstood this when I did the modification, so I thought it might be helpful to state that more clearly.
Currently I am waiting on new bearings for the RC51 front wheel, and have been doing a lot of research on exhaust theories. I will talk more about that later. Now . . . some pictures.

Talking my language brother! I would love a 98-99 engined track bike.
My '99 has SP1 forks, but the front is lowered enough to have clip on above the triple. I've read that isn't possible, but I did it.

Love these threads!  Post pics!

I would love to study exhaust theories and figure out what would be the most efficient dual muffler. Both fronts and both rears in each, or right right and left left.

Latest Pictures . . .

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[image: View Post]KPerham, on 05 October 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Talking my language brother! I would love a 98-99 engined track bike.
My '99 has SP1 forks, but the front is lowered enough to have clip on above the triple. I've read that isn't possible, but I did it.

Thanks for the support man! I actually don't think I'll make this a true "Track" bike. I'm no racer, and if I ever do get into racing, or simply track days, I'll probably do it on a lightweight, cheap, not too powerful, supermoto! This bike I'm building is supposed to just me my dream bike, something to enjoy engineering, something to enjoy on the local twisty backroads when it's complete, and something to say I built a lot of myself!

[image: View Post]kostritzer, on 05 October 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Love these threads!  Post pics!

LOTS of pics coming!

[image: View Post]KPerham, on 05 October 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

I would love to study exhaust theories and figure out what would be the most efficient dual muffler. Both fronts and both rears in each, or right right and left left.

I'm actually reading into back pressure and scavenging theories because I have been really thinking about making the exhaust headers unequal length. Now I don't know enough about it yet to say I've decided, I'm just considering it. The advantages would be, nicely placed underbody exhaust, simpler pipe, lower center of mass, lighter pipe, and although I'm almost sure I'll get crap for this reason: It'll have a very unique sound to it! unequal length headers are what give Subaru's the unique exhaust note. I'm trying to learn if I can increase the diameter of the longer pipes to try to make the back pressure and scavenging more equal to be sure the engine is running right and not being harmed. Lots of research and talking to my fluid dynamics professors to try and figure this one out!

Very cool, I'll be watching!

well those pictures load pretty slow, lets try photobucket . . .

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Ahhh, photobucket is MUCH faster! for me at least . . . Veefer800Canuck, glad to here it!

Well that was a lot of nice pictures of the work I've done over the last . . . four months :sad: . Like I said, building won't be progressing that fast. I wish I had the time, money, and knowledge for it to go faster! But there will be some interesting thoughts floating around between actual building!

Keeping an eye on this one!

HI Everyone, another exciting thread developing here then! :fing02:

So your gonna do a trellis frame.. How about it using an existing frame to setup a jig/fixture from. it could possibly save a lot of work? Then you have to decide on geometry changes.- headstock angle, swingarm angle/ pivot height.
have a read of this book The Racing Motorcycle - A technical guide for contructors - i'd recommend it to anyone thinking of designing/fabricating their own chassis.

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/0951292935

:ph34r: x2

HI Everyone, another exciting thread developing here then! :fing02:

So your gonna do a trellis frame.. How about it using an existing frame to setup a jig/fixture from. it could possibly save a lot of work? Then you have to decide on geometry changes.- headstock angle, swingarm angle/ pivot height.
have a read of this book The Racing Motorcycle - A technical guide for contructors - i'd recommend it to anyone thinking of designing/fabricating their own chassis.

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/0951292935

Well I've bought an exrta frame just for that. Making a jig to work from will benifit the guy that knows how to weld up the street, and hopefully cut down on my costs a bit. I'd like to make just a few geometry changes on the VFR, if any. I'd like to change the headstock angle, and wheelbase to be closer to those of an RC51. Changing the wheelbase would probably mean that the shock needs to be connected directly to the top of the swingarm, and I don't yet know how much benifit the progressive suspension linkage has on the bikes performance? I was thinking that if I get a really high end shock (ohlins) that I could get away with not using the suspension linkage . . . but after a few quick google searches, it appears that ALL performance bikes have them. So maybe I won't ditch the setup. I'm not quite there yet, although the trellis frame is something I very much plan on doing. I haven't done as much research on that as I have on other topics.

Thank you for the book suggestion. I have a few for this project! It appears that the book you've suggested isn't all that easy to get a hold of these days. amazon only has 3, and all for over $100! what is the benifit of this book over volume 1? Also, do you think Tony Foale's book will do? Because I already have that! (http://www.tonyfoale.com/)

Thanks for your interest guys!

John Bradley’s books are both full of very useful information.

Volume 1 is more theory based - Volume 2 is more practical and includes making a steel chassis, alloy fabrications, making exhausts, properties of other materials. i.e. magnesium and titanium plus fibre reinforced materials. Good chapter on reducing structural failures! Loads of really good information on choosing the right materials; steel and aluminium alloys.
Tony Foales book is more theoretically based if I remember correctly. He does some nice chassis setup software – you can really explore what changes in geometry do and how changing one element can affect everything else.

Reducing the wheelbase on the 5th gen is tough… watch out for the headers and front edge of the valve cover at full bump!

John Bradley’s books are both full of very useful information.

Volume 1 is more theory based - Volume 2 is more practical and includes making a steel chassis, alloy fabrications, making exhausts, properties of other materials. i.e. magnesium and titanium plus fibre reinforced materials. Good chapter on reducing structural failures! Loads of really good information on choosing the right materials; steel and aluminium alloys.
Tony Foales book is more theoretically based if I remember correctly. He does some nice chassis setup software – you can really explore what changes in geometry do and how changing one element can affect everything else.

Reducing the wheelbase on the 5th gen is tough… watch out for the headers and front edge of the valve cover at full bump!

I will surely be ordering that book! Sounds very useful, thanks for the suggestion!

With regard to the wheelbase, I have been doing some reading today, and it looks like the stock setup is what I'll be using.

Latest information: I recently talked to the local custom motorcycle shop about having a custom header made. I started out by telling him that I would like for the header to be unequal length so that it can be nicely placed under the body like the Ducati 1199 or KTM RC8, this would also allow for a simpler pipe, lower center of mass, less weight, and a side effect of having the unequal length headers is that the engine will have a very unique sound to it. He said he didn’t know all that much about drastically unequal length headers, but he sounded confident in saying that back pressure and scavenging aren’t quite as important in a fuel injected engine as they are in a carbureted engine. He said that he’d feel fine making headers that had no more than around 12” difference, any more than that and he’d just be hoping for the best, not entirely sure about how it would work. I got a quote of around $1800 for a complete header made of thin stainless. I was guessing that it would cost somewhere around that, unfortunately I don’t have the money for that yet! But I will soon.

I realized this summer that this project was draining me of money faster than I ever imagined it would! So I took my last 2 grand that was supposed to be for the VFR project, and I bought an ST1300 ABS model that was in great condition, had fewer than 2k miles, but hadn’t been ridden in a number of years (for $2,000). So naturally, the gas tank is rusted. I just got in all of the Kreem tank liner stuff (No thanks to Motorcycle Superstore, but a huge thanks to SolomonRacing!) so I hope to get that tank lined, then get the bike running and cleaned up, then sold for around $7,000! It has a few nice little upgrades on it, like the helibars bar risers, and an upgraded windscreen. I just looked up KBB and NADA on it, it was $5,800, and $6,300, respectively. But with so very few miles, and seeing these bikes on craigslist being advertised for exactly (and slightly over) KBB and NADA with 50,000 miles on them, I’m hoping that $7,000 isn’t unreasonable! Maybe if I get really lucky and put it up for $8,000 and get even more out of it!

I just emailed my fluid dynamics professor about the exhaust problem. Hopefully he can help me out with this!

Pictures for thought . . . decisions, decisions . . .

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Frame inspiration for you...

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Frame inspiration for you...

Wow! incredible looking bike! It's interesting to think that the trellis frame I make for my VFR will look kind of like what you see there in orange, without a lower part to the frame for a swingarm pivot.

No new updates. I've really been trying to figure out this exhaust thing, and I'm hoping for a responce from my professor about the unequal pipes any day now, but nothing yet. I will be giving him a call tomrrow to see if my email when into his junk mail filter. I have a hard time working on too many things at once, so I'd really like to come to some sort of general design conclusion with the exhaust, do I go unequal? or is that just a bad idea? . . .

But until then (Since I don't really have the cash to put out for an exhaust system just yet anyways) I'm going to start designing some harris-like rearsets for the bike! something like these http://www.speedzill...rts-vfr800.html with some minor changes!

I know nothing for sure, but it seems like any experimentation with unequal length headers is likely to benefit a specific RPM range, similar to a 2 stroke expansion chamber. This should be due to the timing of the pulses from the rear cylinders changing relative to the front because of the different lengths.

Since most Subi's are turbo'ed, they don't care about scavenging because everything is pressurized. I saw your thinking about supercharging, I guess some of this depends on how set you are on forced induction.

My 2 pesos.

Maybe to save a couple bucks on rearsets, you can use the 6th gen part to bolt on after market rearsets. It's the piece that bolts to the engine and the center stand and rearsets bolt to it.
I got the idea from Kostritzer. I found the piece for $20 on eBay.

I know nothing for sure, but it seems like any experimentation with unequal length headers is likely to benefit a specific RPM range, similar to a 2 stroke expansion chamber. This should be due to the timing of the pulses from the rear cylinders changing relative to the front because of the different lengths.

Since most Subi's are turbo'ed, they don't care about scavenging because everything is pressurized. I saw your thinking about supercharging, I guess some of this depends on how set you are on forced induction.

My 2 pesos.

Hmmm, well I do see how the turbo would change things, but they're not all turboed! I'm really hoping for a concrete mathematical answer from one of my professors, this would make me feel that I made the right decision, one way or the other.

Maybe to save a couple bucks on rearsets, you can use the 6th gen part to bolt on after market rearsets. It's the piece that bolts to the engine and the center stand and rearsets bolt to it.
I got the idea from Kostritzer. I found the piece for $20 on eBay.

I have seen this mod, but as I have some scrap aluminum in the shop, and I'd like to make this bike as "one of a kind" as possible, I'm going to attempt to make some! Thanks for the info though!

No response with exhaust info. A little frustrating, but oh well. I’ve got plenty of things to work on!!
So I believe I made a friend at my school who said he would be willing to do some sketches kind of like Truckinduc did for FslFlint (over on CustomFighters, incredible sketches by the way). But I haven’t had a chance yet to sit down with him and go over the types of sketches I’m looking for. So I did a few myself just to figure out what it is that I even want! So here’s my quick sketch. Comments are appreciated . . .

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I kind of feel like it’s overly busy in the middle there with the three engine mounting points that are really close together. What do you all think?

Are you aware of the Torocharger?

I'll keep an eye on this project. Perhaps put the exhaust aside for now. Probably will be the last thing to worry about when putting it together.

Are you aware of the Torocharger?

I'll keep an eye on this project. Perhaps put the exhaust aside for now. Probably will be the last thing to worry about when putting it together.

Yea, and I plan on using one! I guess I called it the A&A supercharger kit instead of the " torocharger", but same deal. Obviously I'll have to make some of my own mounts, but that's alright.

And the reason I wanted to try to figure out the exhaust setup now is so that I can see how much room I can make in the front of the bike for a low front mounted radiator setup! As long as I do the exhaust before the radiators though, there's really no required order for me to build things. So I will continue with making little things (rearsets) and designing big things (frame)

A member of CustomFighers made me realize that I should have clarified something with my frame sketch . . .

Whilst it'd be tempting to reduce the mounting point count, I am guessing that those are one front, one rear, and one on each head. They will spread the loads as required so you don't end up with an even more interesting engine configuration than V4.
This year VFR uses a separate rear frame section for the swingarm mounting, similar to 929 and 954 CBR's. I get a feeling that it would be more attractive if you're building your own frame to make it in one piece. It may potentially allow you to get away with one fewer mid mounting points too?
IDK if that's anything in your intention btw as that lower frame carries the swingarm, footpegs and whatever else. It is, if you like, the difficult bit of a frame to do, the bit you won't just do with tubes, bends and mitres.
I always find the visual gap in the frame a bit disturbing! But as shown in this picture IDK if you'll suffer even more torturous exhaust routing by messing with the overall frame design.
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Edit: where have you got that front mount from? Looks superfluous to me. If it's intentional is there even anywhere on the engine to bolt it to?
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a morti, I don't quite understand what you mean by "I get a feeling that it would be more attractive if you're building your own frame to make it in one piece. It may potentially allow you to get away with one fewer mid mounting points too?".
About what you're referring to as the "lower frame", I believe that the "Lower Frame" simply consists of two thick pieces of aluminum that allow the rearsets to mount and maybe a few other small things. The swingarm, however, pivots in the engine casing, much like an RC51. So I, myself, wouldn't quite call those thick pieces of aluminum a "lower frame". I don't have any intentions of modifying that area of the bike anyways.
I simply would like to make a new main frame, which would serve as a replacement for the second picture you posted in your edit. A steel trellis frame to replace that aluminum "delta box" style frame.
Now about the lower front mount. You are right, in that it is not a mounting point that is used with the original main frame. The reason I wanted a steel frame member to go to that point is to provide support/a good mounting point, for the new front mounted radiator design without the mounts for the radiator(s) looking like an afterthought. I did look closely at my engine in the garage, and the three mounting points on the engine (that are used with the original frame) look almost exactly the same as the fourth mounting point that I hope to use. So I believe that this should work fine!
Not my bike:
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Let me know what you think.

I believe the RC45 made use of that lower "mounting" hole in the above pic.

I believe the RC45 made use of that lower "mounting" hole in the above pic.

Thanks for the info!

Latest updates:

I didn't do much with the VFR this past weekend/week, I've been trying to get this ST1300 running and out of here for funding the REAL project!! Here are some pictures of the lower gas tank with 99% of the rust cleaned out:

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I really wish I would have taken some before pictures, it looked nasty!

With regard to the VFR project, I've been doing a lot of sketching of the frame, I haven't heard anything new from the student at my school who said he'd be willing to help me out, so I've just been doing my own sketches. I'll have the rearsets design up soon!

thanks for the piccy of that VFR BioBlade, I've seen that before, must do some googling...

I was in contact with the journalist that had the BioBlade made. The only engine work was a bit of light tuning, porting etc. Runs standard throttle bodies & airbox due to the noise regs in the No Budget Cup race series. I've got mine up to 107rwhp from 95 as standard & I'm working on making that 120rwhp :)

I was in contact with the journalist that had the BioBlade made. The only engine work was a bit of light tuning, porting etc. Runs standard throttle bodies & airbox due to the noise regs in the No Budget Cup race series. I've got mine up to 107rwhp from 95 as standard & I'm working on making that 120rwhp :)

Why not just go for 160 rwhp with the torocharger!? =) :wheel:

On your engine mounting options the RC45 from whence the RC46 Motor was derived only used the Front engine, Rear cylinder & Rear engine mounts as per this pic

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The Front cylinder mount was added to the RC46 motor to allow a smaller front engine mount to allow the side mouted radsa to sit below it. With the same frame as the RC45, then the airflow to the rads would have been obscured ! So you only need to use those 3 original mounting points.

Note that the side mount rads were there to reduce the wheel base, if I remember correctly the 800 is 40mm shorter in the wheelbase than the 750 before it !

On your engine mounting options the RC45 from whence the RC46 Motor was derived only used the Front engine, Rear cylinder & Rear engine mounts as per this pic

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The Front cylinder mount was added to the RC46 motor to allow a smaller front engine mount to allow the side mouted radsa to sit below it. With the same frame as the RC45, then the airflow to the rads would have been obscured ! So you only need to use those 3 original mounting points.

Note that the side mount rads were there to reduce the wheel base, if I remember correctly the 800 is 40mm shorter in the wheelbase than the 750 before it !

Well the RC46 currently doesn't use those front engine mounts for anything! The reason I was hoping to use it is to have a goood mounting position for a front mounted radiator. So without side mounted radiators, blocking air flow is not of concern to me. So I'm curious if I could get away with using the front engine mount, rear cylinder mount, and rear engine mount only on my RC46?? Just like the RC45 is mounted. Or would it be wiser to use all four mounts, so the front engine, front cylinder, rear engine, and rear cylinder mounts?

Awesome topic!

If I understand correctly, the very front mount that is very low is just for a radiator. The mounting is very stout! I would think about using the mounting holes for the side radiators and modding a bracket that supports your front mounted rad idea.

Awesome topic!

Thanks! :fing02:

If I understand correctly, the very front mount that is very low is just for a radiator. The mounting is very stout! I would think about using the mounting holes for the side radiators and modding a bracket that supports your front mounted rad idea.

Well, I don't want to say that it is JUST for the radiator. Obviously it will also provide some extra support for the bike, and with 50-60% more power (A&A Supercharger), more support should be a good thing! The reason I don't use the original mounting holes for the side radiators is because one of the goals of this project was to make a custom trellis frame, and the original mounting holes would then have to be made on the trellis frame. I feel like tacked on mounts for the original side mounted radiators would look like an after thought.

Another way to look at this: If I were to ignore that lower "Engine Mount" as Mohawk called it, and just have a trellis frame that utilized the three original mounting points for the RC46, I feel like the trellis frame would look a little goofy and not be as strong/stiff.

To be honest, I'm just basing my design off other bikes with trellis frames, I plan on using a tube diameter/thickness slightly heavier than what is currently being used on the ducati 1198, so I'd love to hear other opinions and comments!

Awesome topic!

Thanks! :fing02:

If I understand correctly, the very front mount that is very low is just for a radiator. The mounting is very stout! I would think about using the mounting holes for the side radiators and modding a bracket that supports your front mounted rad idea.

Well, I don't want to say that it is JUST for the radiator. Obviously it will also provide some extra support for the bike, and with 50-60% more power (A&A Supercharger), more support should be a good thing! The reason I don't use the original mounting holes for the side radiators is because one of the goals of this project was to make a custom trellis frame, and the original mounting holes would then have to be made on the trellis frame. I feel like tacked on mounts for the original side mounted radiators would look like an after thought.

Another way to look at this: If I were to ignore that lower "Engine Mount" as Mohawk called it, and just have a trellis frame that utilized the three original mounting points for the RC46, I feel like the trellis frame would look a little goofy and not be as strong/stiff.

To be honest, I'm just basing my design off other bikes with trellis frames, I plan on using a tube diameter/thickness slightly heavier than what is currently being used on the ducati 1198, so I'd love to hear other opinions and comments!

Alright, after thinking more about this frame . . .

Truth is, I have a bad tendency to over build things. Not to any extreme, I'm not going to use solid steel tubes or anything crazy like that! I just won't feel entirely confident in my skills until I'm through my engineering program in college, and know how to thuroughly test (with a computer program) the stress and strain of each component of the bike. Until then, I don't think that slightly over-building is that bad.

Due to the fact that I'm not yet an expert, I was hoping some more experienced members could give me their opinion . . .

This is a streetfighter RC51 with a stock frame:
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Notice the lower engine mount similar to that of the VFR that I am considering using

This is a custom trellis frame for a different RC51 streetfighter:
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NOW . . . THIS is a Mondial Frame with an RC51 engine in it. As this was a race bike used on the track, I'm sure it was thuroughly engineered to be lightweight but plenty strong. But while knowing that, I still have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that they just decided to NOT use one of the engine mounting points that the stock RC51 used!
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So the question: Do I slightly over-build, using four mounting points opposed to the original three? Do I try to make something using only the original three mounting points? Or do I lighten this thing up by simply ignoring one of the mounting points like the Mondial did?

I'm pretty set on slightly over-building, but I'm curious to hear some other opinions.

I found a report on the BioBlade, it said they changed the cam-profile too...

As to the engineering aspect, I'd over-engineer it and use the extra bolt-hole.

I found a report on the BioBlade, it said they changed the cam-profile too...

As to the engineering aspect, I'd over-engineer it and use the extra bolt-hole.

By just re-grinding it?

And I think thats what I'll do, even though the mondial style frame would look really clean

I seem to remember a quote from Colin Edwards saying he removed a couple of frame to engine bolts on his SP-1 to get more feel. Not sure if it's truth or myth...

Here's a pic of an RC45 minus fairing, so you can see the mounts & frame are almost identical to the RC51 !

[image: Posted Image]

I took the liberty of drawing some frame lines, they are NOT to scale :)
Note the location of the rads etc & also note that if you want to mount the AA performance supercharger, then you will need to ensure the clearances for the supercharger & drive belt are maintained similar to the existing RC46 frame layout !

Yes the BioBlade had reworked cams, as does mine, but that's basic tuning in my book. Stripping the engine & replacing/improving internal parts is serious tuning IMO.
For the supercharger, you do NOT want longer duration cams, the whole point of forced induction is that it removes the breathing restrictions of a standard motor by forcing the air in !!! longer duration cams would lose bnottom end & gain nothing with the supercharger, apart from wasting fuel down the exhast pipe !

The reason the Mondial frame doesn't need the extra mount is because the frame itself is rather stout. Look how large of a diameter tube they used. Think about what a frame has to do. It's #1 job is to keep the steering neck and swingarm pivot areas from flexing. The big forces working on a frame are from the front wheel/forks and swingarm. If you can make those 2 points secure, then you need only make sure the motor doesn't move...a much easier task. There are manufacturers that use the motor as the frame and merely bolt the steering neck and swingarm to subframes off of it.

Now if you want to get rid of forks all together...you go this route.
[image: Posted Image]

Here's a pic of an RC45 minus fairing, so you can see the mounts & frame are almost identical to the RC51 !

[image: Posted Image]

I took the liberty of drawing some frame lines, they are NOT to scale :)
Note the location of the rads etc & also note that if you want to mount the AA performance supercharger, then you will need to ensure the clearances for the supercharger & drive belt are maintained similar to the existing RC46 frame layout !

Yes the BioBlade had reworked cams, as does mine, but that's basic tuning in my book. Stripping the engine & replacing/improving internal parts is serious tuning IMO.
For the supercharger, you do NOT want longer duration cams, the whole point of forced induction is that it removes the breathing restrictions of a standard motor by forcing the air in !!! longer duration cams would lose bnottom end & gain nothing with the supercharger, apart from wasting fuel down the exhast pipe !

Man that RC45 is thick looking!!! Thanks for the picture and the information though! I was absolutely planning on having clearances for the Supercharger, so that the radiators don't get in the way.

And the supercharger/cam information is news to me! Thanks!

The reason the Mondial frame doesn't need the extra mount is because the frame itself is rather stout. Look how large of a diameter tube they used. Think about what a frame has to do. It's #1 job is to keep the steering neck and swingarm pivot areas from flexing. The big forces working on a frame are from the front wheel/forks and swingarm. If you can make those 2 points secure, then you need only make sure the motor doesn't move...a much easier task. There are manufacturers that use the motor as the frame and merely bolt the steering neck and swingarm to subframes off of it.

Now if you want to get rid of forks all together...you go this route.
[image: Posted Image]

hahaha, wouldn't that be something. Unfortunately, I am far from being skilled enough to make a bike like that! I actually feel like I could make the parts (they look billet!) but I wouldn't be able to design it well.

Now about that Mondial frame. It sounds like I need to find out the diameter/thickness tubing they used! And I'm sure you know that the VFR swingarm pivots inside the engine caseing! So how does your description of a frame's job chage then? does it need to hold the engine just as strong as it would hold the swingarm pivot (if it was in the frame)?

This is one of the ideas that I decided to forget about long ago when I was planning this project. However, I am curious, while we are on the topic of frames, how the company Lazareth made this frame actually work on their V800? This bike has been a huge motivator for me to do my own VFR800 build, and I look at a picture of it every day on my laptop background! I don’t want to get too off topic, all your input for the frame that I actually will be building has been very helpful, but does anybody have any idea about if this frame is something that actually works well?
[image: Posted Image]

[image: Posted Image]

[image: Posted Image]

Now about that Mondial frame. It sounds like I need to find out the diameter/thickness tubing they used! And I'm sure you know that the VFR swingarm pivots inside the engine caseing! So how does your description of a frame's job chage then? does it need to hold the engine just as strong as it would hold the swingarm pivot (if it was in the frame)?

If the swingarm is attached directly to an engine thats designed for it, the frame isn't going to keep the engine(and therefore the swingarm pivot) from flexing. If you could mount the front of the engine to something solid and tried to twist the swingarm, you'll likely break it off before you get the engine to flex in any way that could affect handling. In a case of engine mounted swingarms, the frame is not hugely responsible for keeping the arm steady. Street bike frames do have other responsibilities. They must provide mounting locations for the rear subframe, seat, radiators, fuel tanks, batteries, etc. These all come into play when a manufacturer designs a frame. Because many of these things are some distance above the engine, including the steering stem, engineers must either use large spars or small triangulations to minimize flexing of the stem(or frame mounted swingarm). Ideally, if you could mount the steering stem directly to the motor, you'd need even less frame.
Britton's V1000 was basically frameless. The swingarm was attached to the motor. It didn't have a conventional steering neck so a frame network wasn't needed to tie the steering to the motor.
[image: Posted Image]

This is a pretty wild concept and beautiful to boot. I merely bring up these points to say that you have some leeway in motor mounts once you get the steering neck/swingarm secure. Can't wait to see what you come up with.

I've seen the Britten! That thing is incredible. I hope one day that I can build an ENTIRE bike from raw materials! Just incredible . . .

Well all of the other jobs of the frames seem to me incredibly simple. There is the highly difficult and important mounting of the steering step, then simply mounting on things like the tank and subframe.

I'm hoping that my simply basing the design off other bikes will make a steering stem mount that is plenty strong.

Thanks again for all the information!

This is one of the ideas that I decided to forget about long ago when I was planning this project. However, I am curious, while we are on the topic of frames, how the company Lazareth made this frame actually work on their V800? This bike has been a huge motivator for me to do my own VFR800 build, and I look at a picture of it every day on my laptop background! I don’t want to get too off topic, all your input for the frame that I actually will be building has been very helpful, but does anybody have any idea about if this frame is something that actually works well?
[image: Posted Image]

[image: Posted Image]

[image: Posted Image]

While this is going to sound simplistic, the engine is the stressed member. A "frame" is not required other than to transfer the stress loads from the forks to the engine casings.

All other bits and bobs can be hung on simple brackets designed to deal with the minimal stress loads they may induce from thier own weight and accelleration forces.

A key benefit of this design, besides it's inherent stiffness, is that it allows a lower roll center (often refered to as "lower center of gravity") for the promise of faster side to side transitions.....whether or not that ever materializes is a different story.

It would be interesting to see what type of structure they're hidding underneath that nice black plastic panel over the front cylinder head. I'm very curious what the load path is.....

Well if you decide that its too much work to build a frame, and would rather throw a bunch of money at it, you can contact servicehonda.com about purchasing a brand new RC45 frame...

yours for a measly $3,165.28!

http://www.serviceho...994&fveh=124861

^^^ This may not be a bad idea depending on registration requirements in your state.

What are you thinking for material and sizes?

This is one of the ideas that I decided to forget about long ago when I was planning this project. However, I am curious, while we are on the topic of frames, how the company Lazareth made this frame actually work on their V800? This bike has been a huge motivator for me to do my own VFR800 build, and I look at a picture of it every day on my laptop background! I don’t want to get too off topic, all your input for the frame that I actually will be building has been very helpful, but does anybody have any idea about if this frame is something that actually works well?
[image: Posted Image]

[image: Posted Image]

[image: Posted Image]

While this is going to sound simplistic, the engine is the stressed member. A "frame" is not required other than to transfer the stress loads from the forks to the engine casings.

All other bits and bobs can be hung on simple brackets designed to deal with the minimal stress loads they may induce from thier own weight and accelleration forces.

A key benefit of this design, besides it's inherent stiffness, is that it allows a lower roll center (often refered to as "lower center of gravity") for the promise of faster side to side transitions.....whether or not that ever materializes is a different story.

It would be interesting to see what type of structure they're hidding underneath that nice black plastic panel over the front cylinder head. I'm very curious what the load path is.....

It absolutely would. I emailed the company months ago asking for a picture, but they would not supply one. But they were very kind in offering that I purchase a whole "V800" as they call it for somewhere around $50,000 before shipping to the US! hahaha

Well if you decide that its too much work to build a frame, and would rather throw a bunch of money at it, you can contact servicehonda.com about purchasing a brand new RC45 frame...

yours for a measly $3,165.28!

http://www.serviceho...994&fveh=124861

Well, the point of this project is for me to build something, thats what makes this fun for me. If I were just trying to have a heavily modified VFR with bolt on modifications, I probably would have saved my money for an RSV4 instead! Also, the RC45 frame is going to have a longer wheelbase, something I don't want. And Lastly, I think I'm going for a naked bike, and in my opinion the steel trellis design looks better on a naked bike!

However, that site you provided seems VERY useful! I'm about to do my own research on this (as I haven't done any yet), but does the RC45 axle fit in the RC46 with no other major modifications?
Thanks again!

^^^ This may not be a bad idea depending on registration requirements in your state.

What are you thinking for material and sizes?

From what I've read, it shouldn't be an issue having a custom frame titled in MD. I also know a few guys who have done it, so I can always ask them for some help.

For the frame I was planning on basing things off a ducati frame. The 848 uses 34mm outer diameter and a 1.5mm wall thickness.

To overbuild just slightly, I think i'll go 34mm and 1.75mm wall thickness

Reading up about the changes to MotoGP frames over time - Honda always had the right idea, way back to RC45. Long front engine mounts, attached to the engine as close to the crankshaft line appear to be de rigeur. Yamaha and Ducati have been extending theirs in response to Honda. Longer front engine mounts allow the whole stem area to be less stiff for controlled flex.

I like the look of these trellis frames. Thinking about it now, I would imagine the Mondial to eventually develop handling issues because it would flex too much, especially as tyres improve. Stick the latest slicks on it and I bet it would chatter its head off. If it had longer front mounts like the last of the Ducati trellis frames were starting to have. Instead the Mondial looks to have compensated with tube diameter and maybe wall thickness.

That KTM inspired VFR frame looks the shizzle.

Reading up about the changes to MotoGP frames over time - Honda always had the right idea, way back to RC45. Long front engine mounts, attached to the engine as close to the crankshaft line appear to be de rigeur. Yamaha and Ducati have been extending theirs in response to Honda. Longer front engine mounts allow the whole stem area to be less stiff for controlled flex.

I like the look of these trellis frames. Thinking about it now, I would imagine the Mondial to eventually develop handling issues because it would flex too much, especially as tyres improve. Stick the latest slicks on it and I bet it would chatter its head off. If it had longer front mounts like the last of the Ducati trellis frames were starting to have. Instead the Mondial looks to have compensated with tube diameter and maybe wall thickness.

WestofBen, I don't fully understand what you are saying? I'm almost positive that ducati's frames almost always looked like this:
[image: Posted Image]

Which is a 1198 frame, the last of the trellis frames on their supersport bikes. It doesn't seem to have a long front engine mount like you were describing?

That KTM inspired VFR frame looks the shizzle.

You mean this frame?
[image: Posted Image]

It is definitely pretty sick looking! Gotta love that KTM orange, but I don't think that is a VFR engine in there! It looks like a tripple or four cylinder to me! Redmarque could probably tell us exactly what it is though!

It's a CBR 600 rr engine. bike is designed by David Sanchez to race in the 600cc spanish championship - Moto2 spec. Chassis is reynolds cro-mo tubing.

more info on his blog. http://bottpower.com/eng/?cat=50

Ducati's MotoGP bikes originally used to be steel trellis….they couldn’t make the steel frames stiff enough for their liking so went on to develop a carbon frame (the panigale uses a aluminium version of this)
Under Rossi’s rule Ducati then decided to switch an aluminium spar frame similar to Honda and Yamaha’s as they couldn’t fix the frontend feedback issues with the carbon frames.
As Ducati has been developing their own alloy frame they have increasingly lengthened the front frame spars to similar to what Honda have used going back to at least 2004.

Okay, now I get it. Thanks man!

By the way, did you ever get around to making those VFR rearsets that you posted a technical drawing of on your "5th Gen Frankenviffer" thread?

No response with exhaust info. A little frustrating, but oh well. I’ve got plenty of things to work on!!
So I believe I made a friend at my school who said he would be willing to do some sketches kind of like Truckinduc did for FslFlint (over on CustomFighters, incredible sketches by the way). But I haven’t had a chance yet to sit down with him and go over the types of sketches I’m looking for. So I did a few myself just to figure out what it is that I even want! So here’s my quick sketch. Comments are appreciated . . .

[image: Posted Image]

I kind of feel like it’s overly busy in the middle there with the three engine mounting points that are really close together. What do you all think?

Some of my thoughts :
* Using the front lower engine mount is a good idea in principle, especially if you're new to frame design. The more you can triangulate the better (I'm guessing you've covered that in your studies :) And the engine will be the stiffest element in your frame equation by far, so make use of it!!!

* Frame flex is complicated far beyond my comprehension. However, don't under-estimate it's importance! Most modern frame designs (especially over the last 5 years or so) look the way they do with good reason. They take longitudinal (braking load path) and torsional (cornering load path) bending into account, and all this is figured out with lots of CAD. As always in engineering, there is an annoying compromise between the two. To simplify, it's (relatively) easy to make an efficient frame design stiff enough for braking, but then it'll be a bit rubbish for cornering. And vice-versa. This is done nowadays by relating stiffness to resonance - higher the natural frequency, the stiffer something is. But it still doesn't tell you how stiff your frame needs to be. And as learnt several times over in the history of GP's, stiffer is NOT explicitly better. (The Edwards myth may hold some value).

* But then all the above only become important at about 10/10ths, when in the realms of the stickiest tyres, racetracks, and weapon riders. Frame flex is difficult to get right when you're dealing with 1.2G braking and 50-degree lean angles. For a backyard hack (like myself) I expect we'd be too uselessly slow to ever know any better. With that in mind, designing a "good enough" streetbike frame should be doable. Of course, if you're workplace is a racetrack, and you're paid in Champagne then I withdraw this point!

* Engine power: In the case of the VFR800 (and it's rear swingarm pivot through the engine-case) you may remove it from the frame design equation. The load path goes through the engine, which changing the frame design will not effect. Size the frame for braking and cornering.

* And packaging - You'll notice a clever scallop in the head cover of the front cylinder bank. That's where the front tyre goes at full bump. Packaging a radiator between the front wheel and cylinders would be quite a task. Not impossible, maybe with multiple smaller radiators, etc (look back at the Buell pics), but not easy. Unless of course you design the engine to sit further back in the frame, but then you're changing CoG, front/rear weight bias, etc, and that's something I'd imagine Honda got pretty damn right - I wouldn't mess with it...

* Material - be careful with Ducati's frame tube dimensions; they may be using some special steel grades (I may be wrong here, anybody know any better?), at least not the average MS tube you get at the local hardware store. I'd err on the side of caution and use some bigger engineering factors.

Otherwise go for it! Looking forward to see how you get on...

If you're looking for a front mount rad, check out the RC51 forums. There have been several iterations of basically the same setup around for a while now.

Btec gave a very thoughtful analysis. To elaborate on his Ducati point, I know the early 90's 900ss had problems with cracking around the neck. It maybe worth it to find out what the issue was so you don't repeat it. Also a good reason to paint your frame a lighter color.

And the 916, 996 and 998 (and 748 of the same ages) also had issues with the main frame cracking just below the bottom subframe mount if the rider carried too much weight too often (e.g. regular riding with a pillion).

No response with exhaust info. A little frustrating, but oh well. I’ve got plenty of things to work on!!
So I believe I made a friend at my school who said he would be willing to do some sketches kind of like Truckinduc did for FslFlint (over on CustomFighters, incredible sketches by the way). But I haven’t had a chance yet to sit down with him and go over the types of sketches I’m looking for. So I did a few myself just to figure out what it is that I even want! So here’s my quick sketch. Comments are appreciated . . .

[image: Posted Image]

I kind of feel like it’s overly busy in the middle there with the three engine mounting points that are really close together. What do you all think?

Some of my thoughts :
* Using the front lower engine mount is a good idea in principle, especially if you're new to frame design. The more you can triangulate the better (I'm guessing you've covered that in your studies :) And the engine will be the stiffest element in your frame equation by far, so make use of it!!!

* Frame flex is complicated far beyond my comprehension. However, don't under-estimate it's importance! Most modern frame designs (especially over the last 5 years or so) look the way they do with good reason. They take longitudinal (braking load path) and torsional (cornering load path) bending into account, and all this is figured out with lots of CAD. As always in engineering, there is an annoying compromise between the two. To simplify, it's (relatively) easy to make an efficient frame design stiff enough for braking, but then it'll be a bit rubbish for cornering. And vice-versa. This is done nowadays by relating stiffness to resonance - higher the natural frequency, the stiffer something is. But it still doesn't tell you how stiff your frame needs to be. And as learnt several times over in the history of GP's, stiffer is NOT explicitly better. (The Edwards myth may hold some value).

* But then all the above only become important at about 10/10ths, when in the realms of the stickiest tyres, racetracks, and weapon riders. Frame flex is difficult to get right when you're dealing with 1.2G braking and 50-degree lean angles. For a backyard hack (like myself) I expect we'd be too uselessly slow to ever know any better. With that in mind, designing a "good enough" streetbike frame should be doable. Of course, if you're workplace is a racetrack, and you're paid in Champagne then I withdraw this point!

* Engine power: In the case of the VFR800 (and it's rear swingarm pivot through the engine-case) you may remove it from the frame design equation. The load path goes through the engine, which changing the frame design will not effect. Size the frame for braking and cornering.

* And packaging - You'll notice a clever scallop in the head cover of the front cylinder bank. That's where the front tyre goes at full bump. Packaging a radiator between the front wheel and cylinders would be quite a task. Not impossible, maybe with multiple smaller radiators, etc (look back at the Buell pics), but not easy. Unless of course you design the engine to sit further back in the frame, but then you're changing CoG, front/rear weight bias, etc, and that's something I'd imagine Honda got pretty damn right - I wouldn't mess with it...

* Material - be careful with Ducati's frame tube dimensions; they may be using some special steel grades (I may be wrong here, anybody know any better?), at least not the average MS tube you get at the local hardware store. I'd err on the side of caution and use some bigger engineering factors.

Otherwise go for it! Looking forward to see how you get on...

Wow! Thank you for that detailed responce! I will surely be using this information with my design. It is a really good point that most of these design considerations are for riders riding 10/10ths, I don't plan on doing anything crazy like that with this bike after putting so much time and effort into it. I have, however, ridden a bike to my limit, scrubbing the tires in from edge to edge, scraping pegs through a whole turn, no more chicken strips! But I really shouldn't be doing that on these local twisties, I've really been thinking about buying a cheap no title Ninja 500 or sv650 for track days. But thats off topic. Thanks again man!!!

If you're looking for a front mount rad, check out the RC51 forums. There have been several iterations of basically the same setup around for a while now.

I have seen a few front mounted radiators on there, but I'll go have to look for more examples of front mounted radiators. I'm really hoping, however, to use a set up similar to the Buell set up on the first page.

Btec gave a very thoughtful analysis. To elaborate on his Ducati point, I know the early 90's 900ss had problems with cracking around the neck. It maybe worth it to find out what the issue was so you don't repeat it. Also a good reason to paint your frame a lighter color.

I'm going to start researching that right now, thanks! But I don't understand the lighter color thing?

And the 916, 996 and 998 (and 748 of the same ages) also had issues with the main frame cracking just below the bottom subframe mount if the rider carried too much weight too often (e.g. regular riding with a pillion).

I was actually considering making the subframe strong enough for a passengar and or luggage, so I will have to be sure to make a strong subframe mount. Thanks!

So after a few minutes of research, I've read that the cracking in the 900ss wasn't truly considered a "Safety" issue by Ducati, which is why they didn't call it a recall, it was simply a hairline crack that the claim wouldn't have led to any major issues. They did, however, fix the cracked frames with a new weld and a gusset plate welded in. So I guess thats a sign to be sure to weld gusset plates in at the engine mounting points and the neck

Last week and this week are busy weeks at school, but I still manage to do a little every day . . .

Rearsets are off and measured, a few nice pieces of Aluminum 6061 have been obtained, and I made a very rough rearset design just now. I have still been working more on the frame and exhaust, but I hate not actually making something for too long!

[image: Posted Image]

Hey PishvainanRider, Hopefully I'm contributing to this thread and this great forum. A sketch idea based off my 2004 VFR engine mounts. Thoughts?


[image: VFRFRAME.1.jpg]

Quote

[image: View Post]mk2davis, on 19 October 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Btec gave a very thoughtful analysis.  To elaborate on his Ducati point, I know the early 90's 900ss had problems with cracking around the neck.  It maybe worth it to find out what the issue was so you don't repeat it.  Also a good reason to paint your frame a lighter color.

I'm going to start researching that right now, thanks! But I don't understand the lighter color thing?


It's very difficult to find a hairline crack on a black or dark grey frame.  Of course they do get easy to spot as they get bigger, but how big do you want it to get?  Big companies have the luxury of testing and prototyping, but most the people I know who build one off stuff paint their frames white/off white/milk shake to spot little problems before they become big problems.

[image: View Post]Schifty1, on 22 October 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

Hey PishvainanRider, Hopefully I'm contributing to this thread and this great forum. A sketch idea based off my 2004 VFR engine mounts. Thoughts?


[image: Attachment] VFRFRAME.1.jpg

Nice Sketch! I'll have to upload my latest soon. My thoughts on your design are: Although it looks considerably stronger than what I'm planning, I'm going to be basing my design off existing and proven frames. Also, I would like for my frame to be somewhat simpler than what you've drawn. One thing I changed about my original sketch is one "Center" engine mount by machining an aluminum block to hold the two center engine mounts and allow one mounting point for the both of them! Hopefully it'll look good and be plenty strong!

[image: View Post]mk2davis, on 22 October 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Quote

[image: View Post]mk2davis, on 19 October 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Btec gave a very thoughtful analysis.  To elaborate on his Ducati point, I know the early 90's 900ss had problems with cracking around the neck.  It maybe worth it to find out what the issue was so you don't repeat it.  Also a good reason to paint your frame a lighter color.

I'm going to start researching that right now, thanks! But I don't understand the lighter color thing?


It's very difficult to find a hairline crack on a black or dark grey frame.  Of course they do get easy to spot as they get bigger, but how big do you want it to get?  Big companies have the luxury of testing and prototyping, but most the people I know who build one off stuff paint their frames white/off white/milk shake to spot little problems before they become big problems.

A white frame might look kind of trick, red might be noticable enough too? Or maybe a light grey? I haven't even thought of colors like this! I'm far from being there, but it is a good suggestion! Thanks!

In the aircraft world, we use white paint in certain areas, such as the inlets of the engines, and the landing gear. The white paint serves two purposes, first it shows us where cracks are developing, or where rivets are coming loose, second it is a temperature sensitive paint. If it is exposed to higher than normal temperatures, it will change color to a brown color, the darker the brown, the higher the temperature that it experienced. White paint is very good at showing the cracks, trust me on this!

[image: View Post]PishvaianRider, on 16 October 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Or would it be wiser to use all four mounts, so the front engine, front cylinder, rear engine, and rear cylinder mounts?

Speaking from experience both the RC30 RC45 have that purpose built
race bike feel the RC30 has a more harder edge to it's purpose built
race bike feel than the RC45's purpose race bike feel... technically
speaking it all boils down the length of the front engine mounts...
allow me to elaborate...


Both the RC30 and RC45 use aluminum beam frames as the basic chassis
design but what has evolved is the sensitivity to deflection when
leaned right over... The RC30 employs short stiff front engine mounts
where as the RC45 employs long flexy front engine mounts... Honda
found that the longer the engine mount the more a rider can feel the
limits of traction while leaned over... especially when the front
contact patch is held more true in line with the rear contact patch
due to the inherent superior stiffness of up side down forks...

The goal of tuned chassis flex is very much in evidence in MotoGp
today... starting with the 990 and now the 800s every manufacture
employs some form of a long flexy front engine mounts... short ones
are no longer a design option by the engineers even with the latest
electronics...

RC30 short ridged front engine mounts


[image: Posted Image]





RC45 long flexible front engine mounts
[image: Posted Image]

Long Front engine mounts help a rider to get into a slide and to also
find his way out of the slide in a controlled manner...

duhamel rc45 slide
[image: Posted Image]

Note the new V4 Aprilia sports long from engine mounts for that tuned flex feel...


[image: Posted Image]
Yamaha started MotoGp in 2002 with a frame without tune flex feel but
after Rossi signed in 2004 he and Burgess schooled Yamaha on the
benefits for long flexible front engine mounts...

Attached Images

• [image: YamahaM1FrameEvo.jpg]

great info !!!  it all starts to make sense :lurk:

[image: View Post]douglasthecook, on 23 October 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

In the aircraft world, we use white paint in certain areas, such as the inlets of the engines, and the landing gear. The white paint serves two purposes, first it shows us where cracks are developing, or where rivets are coming loose, second it is a temperature sensitive paint. If it is exposed to higher than normal temperatures, it will change color to a brown color, the darker the brown, the higher the temperature that it experienced. White paint is very good at showing the cracks, trust me on this!

Thanks for the advice! White frame it is!
[image: Posted Image]

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 23 October 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

[image: View Post]PishvaianRider, on 16 October 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Or would it be wiser to use all four mounts, so the front engine, front cylinder, rear engine, and rear cylinder mounts?

Speaking from experience both the RC30 RC45 have that purpose built
race bike feel the RC30 has a more harder edge to it's purpose built
race bike feel than the RC45's purpose race bike feel... technically
speaking it all boils down the length of the front engine mounts...
allow me to elaborate...

Both the RC30 and RC45 use aluminum beam frames as the basic chassis
design but what has evolved is the sensitivity to deflection when
leaned right over... The RC30 employs short stiff front engine mounts
where as the RC45 employs long flexy front engine mounts... Honda
found that the longer the engine mount the more a rider can feel the
limits of traction while leaned over... especially when the front
contact patch is held more true in line with the rear contact patch
due to the inherent superior stiffness of up side down forks...

The goal of tuned chassis flex is very much in evidence in MotoGp
today... starting with the 990 and now the 800s every manufacture
employs some form of a long flexy front engine mounts... short ones
are no longer a design option by the engineers even with the latest
electronics...

RC30 short front engine mounts

RC45 long front engine mounts

Long Front engine mounts help a rider to get into a slide and to also
find his way out of the slide in a controlled manner...

duhamel rc45 slide

Note the new V4 Aprilia sports long from engine mounts for that tuned flex feel...

Yamaha started MotoGp in 2002 with a frame without tune flex feel but
after Rossi signed in 2004 he and Burgess schooled Yamaha on the
benefits for long flexible front engine mounts...

Wow, great information, Thanks! So it sounds like the forward most engine mount is a good idea, I will use that, and the long members that will reach down to that mount from the rest of the frame sounds like a good idea too! Sounds like I'm on the right track! Thanks!

While I recognize that I will not be riding this bike like a MotoGP bike, or even like I ride my RC51, the information is still appreciated, and I would still like to attempt to build this to regular motorcycle manufacturers like Honda, Yamaha, and Ducati's high standards.

[image: View Post]PishvaianRider, on 23 October 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

Sounds like I'm on the right track! Thanks!

You're welcome... my good friend Tony Foale has a book that will interest and help you further...

[image: Posted Image]

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 23 October 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

[image: View Post]PishvaianRider, on 23 October 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

Sounds like I'm on the right track! Thanks!

You're welcome... my good friend Tony Foale has a book that will interest and help you further...
I actually ordered Tony Foale's book on CD not too long ago! I really need to sit down one day and read through that!

So I have good news! I have been in contact with a NUMBER of my professors regarding the exhaust problem. They all seem quite interested! And they all copied their peers to our conversation. So I probably have 9 or 10 engineers helping me out with this probelm! [image: Posted Image]

Secondly, I have been doing more work on designing the frame. Now that I have this design, that I'm pretty happy with, unless someone on here points out any major flaws, I'm going to start determing exactly what material and diameter/thickness sizes I will be using.

[image: Posted Image]

By the way, the shaded area is just to note a gusset that will need to go in somewhere aroud there. It will not look exactly like that.

Just remember if you add a front facing radiator above the front cylinder head, then the blower for the supercharger will be homeless. if you don't use side mounted rads,then you would need something like the Blue RC51 with a few off roader long thin rads down each side which would be fine with a faired in bike, but looks weird on that RC51 ! or any unfaired bike !

The V800 looks like it has replacement cylinder head covers & the cam bore covers are decorative, but also look like they bridge between the cam cover & the cylinder head, so may be structural. I would assume the V800 front sub-frame or full top-frame if that's how they built it is attached to the cylinder heads &/or the between V engine mounts behind those silver/chrome dummy intake stacks or whatever they are. As there is no right side coolant hose, then it must go over the the front cylinder head to reach the rad. The whole thing looks like a show bike rather than a functional machine, has anyone ever seen one move ?

Having looked at the V800 a bit more, it looks like the front sub-frame does indeed use the between the V engine mounts & that the dummy velocity stacks are either part of the steel sub-frame or cover for the same. It looks like L shaped mounts from a central plate or perimeter frame attach to the the engine mounts & then the dummy velocity stacks are there to step the frame out to clear the injector assembly, then the main frame is under the tank.

I wouldn't trust that setup, as i have a spare engine from a crashed bike & those engine mounts are NOT very thick or strong & two of them have snapped in half, as in the unsupported side has broken away from the engine side & left a C shaped piece of threaded alloy on the engine & a seperate set lying loose in the V !!!!  so definately use at least 3 pointing points for your frame.

Regarding exhaust, most VFR people know the different firing orders/patterns, but it is easy to forget in the middle of everything else. Modelling pipes on the RC30, RC45, RC212V and RC213V may not help because they are all to my knowledge 360deg cranks. The RC212-213Vs are a closer V, somewhere near 75.5deg, but still 360deg you can hear it. The VFR12 is the same but the crank pins are apparently offset to mimic true 360deg with 90 deg V angle. Listening to the MotoGP bikes, they have the same drone as RC30/45 and VFR12, only higher pitched.

So, 360 and 180 deg are scavenging different cylinders at different times. But, I am wondering about the 180deg bikes. All four pipes collect about half the full exhaust length. This makes me wonder if it is really only to smooth out the power curve. Ideally you might have two sets of headers crossing/balancing earlier, like inline 4s now. Practically on a VFR this is not possible, complexity and 1/3 as much piping again.

I might do some drawings or a spreadsheet. Intrigued now by which cylinders are helping which scavenge in 180 and 360 engines. Memory says that in a 360deg engine the cylinder pairs scavenge. In a 180deg engine you would be expecting a front and rear to pair up. So you could end up with one pair scavenging ok and the other pair working against each other, or at the worst not scavenging. So then you should have four separate megaphones and be done with it!

I digress, but style and sound is probably worth a trade off, especially with a supercharger. Remember race bikes of yore just had megaphones with no balance pipes. V8 cars usually have a balance pipe up the chain, but that is more to quieten the burble and maybe cut resonance. I forget, but is each bank of a V8 essentially an inline 4 or does each bank fire like a cross plane inline 4 like an R1?

WestOfBen,

With all of the reading I've done on exhaust theories about back pressure and scavenging and different styles, I came to this conclusion some time ago:

I am not trying to squeeze every ounce of power out of this bike. Because of that, I am hoping as long as I don't do anything absolutely crazy, with drastically different back pressures, or lots of complicated bends and routing of the exhaust head tubes, the bike will run fine! but again, not optimally at peak horsepower!

With this said, I welcome suggestions on how to make the exhaust better! And as long as the suggestion isn't something that totally contradicts my plan for a light weight underbody exhaust, I will do my best to impliment the suggestion!

I just don't want to drive myself crazy over trying to make a PERFECT exhaust system, because it would take an outrageous amount of time and money with research and trial and error for me to truly make a PERFECT exhaust system!

If you would help figure out which cylinders should have head pipes collecting together to make this system run better it would be greatly appreciated! I think the four individual megaphone steup would be a bit too loud for me, and I definitely think it would weigh a bit more than my original plan due to having four mufflers!

Thanks again for your help!

-Matthew

Edit:

Just found on bikersoracle.com from member LevelRob:
 

No. 1 fires at 0º
No. 2 fires at 0º + 180º = 180º
No. 3 fires at 180º + 270º = 450º
No. 4 fires at 450º + 180º = 630º
No. 1 fires again at 630º + 90º = 720º
 

Now to figure out which cylinders are which, then which cylinders should have head pipes that collect! maybe a 4 into 2 system would be best (if the cylinders are paired front to back) and have a dual underbody exhaust?

Also from  bikersoracle.com

If you're sitting on the bike, the left rear is No.1, the left front is No.2, the rear right is No.3 and the front right is No.4

Firing order :

Cylinder/Degrees
1/180
3/270
2/180
4/90
 

This was also on Bikersoracle.com

"The RC24, RC36 and RC46 have a 180 crank, and the RC30 and RC45 have
a 360 crank (BTW, as well as the VF400R have, and the VF750F and S
had).

The cylinders are evenly numbered in both cases :
Front (from left)
2 4
1 3
Rear (from left) ... :o)

Hence the firing order is 1-4-3-2 for the 180s, instead of the 360's
1-3-2-4.
This seems quite logical, since the firings intervals are for the
VFRs : 90-180-270-180 degrees, and for the RC30 and RC45 :
270-90-270-90.
The latter is more "harsh", but gives more time during the two 270
phases for the rear tire to regain grip, and so allows better
traction (remember of the NR500s "big-bang" engine crank) :
suited for race use.
The former is more evenly (?) spreaded and gives a smoother engine :
suited for road use.
One could say the RC45 engine "are" two V-twins which would be set
at 360 degrees from each other, and the RC46 "are" two V-twins at
180 degrees from each other."

Seems like everyone has a different opinion of what the firing order is on their bikes?! Can anybody comfirm one of these!?

Awesome! That's the info I was going to scour today before doing some drawings for sh!ts and giggles and hopefully some enlightenment :)

Awesome! That's the info I was going to scour today before doing some drawings for sh!ts and giggles and hopefully some enlightenment :)

Looking forward to this enlightenment!! :fing02:

WestOfBen, any luck with the drawings!?

Other updates:

Used (and WORKING) fuel pump is in! Tested it just the other day!

[image: IMG_0212_zps81f47e89.jpg]

Just ordered a new battery for the ST1300 and the fuel level sensor. After that I just need to clean out the larger gastank (Without Kreeme) and put everything back together!!

Very excited!! =)

WestOfBen, still looking forward to those drawings :)

Latest news? The ST1300 RUNS!!!!!!!!  :cheerleader:   with a minor leak :goofy:  haha I worked on the bike all day saturday, from when I woke up until 2am sunday morning, and it now runs :) Around 12 I decided that I'd take the bike just up the street to the gas station, and after filling the bike up to the very top I realized that there was a leak, and it was enough to scare me. Didn't want to be looking like this aprilia racer:

[image: RS320Qube20fire_zpseceec965.jpg]

I should have the leak figured out this week then just doing little things and cleaning it up really well to get it sold!

[image: IMG_0224_zps3208c87e.jpg]

Colin Edwards and the Evil Aprilia Cube.

that is an 04 ST1300, right?

Is it ABS?

Colin Edwards and the Evil Aprilia Cube.

Is there a rider who would have more stories to tell on the corporate speaking circuit than Colin Edwards? :wacko:

that is an 04 ST1300, right?

Is it ABS?

Um, fuel leak sir...lol

J/K, I'm sure he'll fix it before you buy it!

Colin Edwards and the Evil Aprilia Cube.

Is there a rider who would have more stories to tell on the corporate speaking circuit than Colin Edwards? :wacko:

I'm sure there are plenty, but none would tell them as entertainingly! 

Colin Edwards and the Evil Aprilia Cube.

Is there a rider who would have more stories to tell on the corporate speaking circuit than Colin Edwards? :wacko:

Not only would the language be salty but the power point presentation would be chock full of great racing shots

[video: http://youtube.com/embed/DP9ZMIlkHrQ?html5=1&fs=1]

Colin Edwards and the Evil Aprilia Cube.

Thanks for the info! I knew I had seen the race with my dad, but I couldn't remember the rider, I just remembered he was an aprilia rider! 

that is an 04 ST1300, right?

Is it ABS?

Yes sir it is! and with only 1860 miles at the moment! :fing02:  the leak appears to be coming from the fuel level sensor, so I'll probably replace that gasket (the new sensor I got didn't come with a new gasket, so I used the old one) and then I may even put some more RTV rubber like stuff around there too to seal the sensor! hopefully thats it

[video: http://youtube.com/embed/DP9ZMIlkHrQ?html5=1&fs=1]

Nice video!! Thanks!

Watch out for bending the lip of the tank when you insert the sending unit/ pump. That usually causes a small fuel leak.

Will do! Thanks!

With the upper tank totally empty, the bike runs fine, with no leaks or anything! So I've taken it out a few times for little test rides, and everything seems to be working GREAT! There are a couple minor things that I'm going to have to fix, in addition to simply replacing all the old fluids. I have a new fuel level sensor gasket coming in hopefully Monday or Tuesday so I hope to have this bike all finished up this week!!! :cheerleader:

Wow! This thread has been getting a lot of views recently! Thanks everyone!

So latest up dates with the ST1300: the leak was coming from the old dry-rotted fuel level sensor O-ring. Replaced that and tested it out a bit more only to realize ANOTHER problem, the tank wasn't venting properly! While riding the tank would get such a strong vaccum on it that the gas cap would be hard to open! Then if sitting in the sun the gas cap would damn near blow off! So after a couple days work I figured out that it was the fuel evap line that was clogged, so I used a very small wire with some PB Blaster to push through the hard line in the gas tank and cleared whatever the obstruction was out! Now all is good =) Time for standard maintenance, lots of cleaning, and then getting this thing sold!

Back to the main subject of the thread . . . the RVF800RR!

I don't want to give away the next part of the project without having pictures of parts to show everyone. So without giving that away, I wanted to ask peoples opinion about the frame. This next part of the project (still a secret) has caused me to re-think having a totally custom trellis frame made. Although that WAS part of the original goal, and although it would be ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE, would it not make more sense to use the stock frame from Honda, a proven and well designed frame? opposed to a (likely) overly heavy and over-built steel trellis frame designed by a college student!?  With the amount of experience I have doing these types of things, I don't know that I would be capable of coming even close to getting a frame as strong yet as light as the stock frame! Or could I actually get pretty close by basing my frame tube diameter and thickness and geometry off a recent ducati frame?? It's been on my mind recnetly because I'm not looking to build something simply for the looks (like OCC choppers or other builders) I want to have a well engineered bike, not something simply flashy. So for those reaons I have been really re-considering my choice in frame.

Let me know what you all think one way or the other!

Yes sir I do! They are surprisingly not dry rotted! But I wouldn't trust them on a cross country trip

Forgot to mention (and am about to update the craigslist ad as well) that the bike does have a brand new battery in it!

So sad to have all the bikes out, except the VFR. It'll be worth it though! Still waiting on the right buyer! Any day now I'm gonna be REALLY starting this VFR build!

Attached Images

• [image: IMG_0286.JPG]

Hey guys, so this isn’t a post about the build itself, but a post about me. I believe that I have said before on this thread that I am currently in college studying Mechanical Engineering, but I thought I’d tell you all a little more about myself.

So going all the way back to when I was in first grade, I still have somewhere in my old photo albums the little cut out figure of a person that we were told to draw as a person working in a field we would like to work in. Most kids drew police men, firefighters, and astronauts, but I drew an Engineer. Both of my grandfathers were engineers, and my dad had, and still has, many engineering related hobbies such as building grandfather clocks. It was only in high school that I decided that Mechanical Engineering was the specific field I wanted to go into, but I always knew I wanted to be an engineer!

[image: pdbody1_zps3576af0d.jpg]

So through elementary school, middle school, high school, and now college I have continued to dream of becoming an engineer and building incredible things. I have had an impressive number of internships at some impressive companies for my age. Through those work experiences that I am very thankful to have had, I learned that my dream of becoming a mechanical engineer will not be fulfilled when I secure a real job at a company similar to the ones I have interned at. Doing that likely will not give me nearly enough freedom to build the things I dream of building!

So my mom’s father was not only an incredibly intelligent Mechanical Engineer, but also a brilliant businessman/entrepreneur! He had a number of his own companies (most of them entirely unrelated to engineering) and was incredibly successful!

Knowing this, it has recently (last 4 or so years) been my plan to one day begin my own engineering company! So while I am still in school, I have been taking advantage of all of the great classes available to me, classes outside the field of engineering! I have taken a lot of psychology classes, philosophy classes, anthropology classes, sociology classes, and most importantly for this dream of mine, entrepreneurial classes! UMBC is one of very few colleges to offer an Entrepreneurial minor, which is quite different from a business minor. As I’m sure you can all imagine, starting a company from nothing requires a different set of skills than going into an existing company and helping it grow.

My most recent entrepreneurial class is ENTR 320 – Entrepreneurial Marketing.  Our semester project for this class was to write a short eBook, and market the hell out of it! The book is FREE and can be downloaded online, but the point of it is to see which group in class markets their book the best, and gets the most downloads! My professor has a pretty cool program to monitor how many downloads each team gets. If you’re interested in helping me out with that, here’s the link: http://domoreinbmore...s/ebook-signup/ there’s a great section in there that I’m positive you’ll all enjoy and may even be able to guess I wrote! Hint: it’s motorcycle related! All you have to do is enter your email, and I promise that your email will go nowhere! It isn't used for anything but my class to record the number of downloads we got!

But that’s not the reason I’m posting all this. Although I’d love to do well with my class competition, I am really writing this to you all because I plan on writing my own eBook as a very, VERY, small and realistic start to my own company! I am hoping to write a good eBook sharing my experiences on motorcycling with my two closest friends who are also avid motorcyclists! Having been on a motorcycle since I was four years old, working on them since I was 10, riding some of the hardest off road trails on the east coast at Hatfield-McCoy, and going on incredible trips such as a ride from Alaska to Baltimore in 2010 all before my 21st birthday, I feel that I can provide a very unique perspective on the world of riding. Although the main goal of this company is to build things, I have learned through my marketing class that just because you build something doesn't mean people will come and buy it! So with this eBook, and with this pretty cool VFR build of mine, I hope to gain a bit of a following for a company. I created a quick Facebook page with a company name relating to engineering/motorcycling, and I wanted to ask if you would all do me a favor by liking the page! https://www.facebook...BellicoseMotors

But back to the build! The ST is still for sale! (http://baltimore.cra...3729319754.html) And once that thing is gone and some $$ is in my pocket, the VFR build will REALLY take off! Here are some of the latest pictures!

[image: IMG_9684_zpseccc3be9.jpg]

[image: IMG_1396_zpsf83de6fa.jpg]

[image: IMG_2251_zps36578c6b.jpg]

So just like last summer, this summer got unexpectedly crazy! Long story short: I'm in OREGON!!  :cheerleader:  But without my vfr parts  :sad:  

So at the end of the school semester when things were just starting to ramp up to get this build REALLY going, I saw an opportunity to intern for an incredible company that some of you may know: Palatov Motorsports. (Palatov.com)

As I explained in my last post, which was some time ago, the end goal for me is to start my own company! So I had to take this opportunity to work for this small company doing mechanical engineering related things! I plan to be back home in the fall and continuing my slow pace working on the VFR. 

But there is some big news! THE ST IS SOLD!!!!! So finally I have funds (that I have not touched over the summer!) that will be getting this project really moving!! Hope to post big things shortly!!!

Have a great summer guys.

Missed the eBook thing :( but Palatov looks VERY interesting! Great place to do an internship by the looks of it.

Great news on selling the ST and on your internship...get back home soon and get to spinning wrenches on the VFR.

Hurry up and finish! I need something to read on rainy days...

Missed the eBook thing :( but Palatov looks VERY interesting! Great place to do an internship by the looks of it.

No worries Phantom. And it absolutely is, really cool stuff going on here! I've been learning a lot!! Including a few things specifically about the VFR  :fing02:

Great news on selling the ST and on your internship...get back home soon and get to spinning wrenches on the VFR.

Plan is to be home at the beginning of August to work some things out with school, but I'll be home and working on the bike for sure!!

Hurry up and finish! I need something to read on rainy days...

Haha me too! There seems to be nothing but rainy days here in Portland!!

Any chance you can weigh that subframe ? I know its a bit late & it might be rebuilt by now !

which sub frame do you need the weight off? I have a few laying around.

Any chance you can weigh that subframe ? I know its a bit late & it might be rebuilt by now !

Haha, I wish it was too late and my bike was back together! but no, it's still off and laying in my closet while I am away in Oregon! Thankfully Corner Carver sounds like he can help you out!

My second to last week here in Portland. I've really enjoyed working at Palatov Motorsports but I am excited to get back to my own project  :rolleyes: I am very happy that I got to see one of the cars we've been working on come together though! One of the biggest things i've been able to work on was the body for Palatov's D2, and it's really starting to take shape! I think it looks pretty damn cool too! Makes me realize how much custom bodywork I could potentially do with my VFR  :fing02:  Check it out:

[image: VFS3KH9.jpg]

More pictures on DPcars.net

Robin Reliant on steroids???????

;-)

is there gonna be a motorcycle in here sometime soon?????

Robin Reliant on steroids???????

;-)

Have no fear, Jezza will test flip it for them......................

 Haha I had never seen that episode of Top Gear until just today! Definitely nothing like that, although it does look a little similar! This thing is wild on the track, I was very thankful that one of the few owners was willing to take me around the track in the passenger seat!! Check out the video from that day!

 http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eaC5HEk498o

Robin Reliant on steroids???????

;-)

Have no fear, Jezza will test flip it for them......................

is there gonna be a motorcycle in here sometime soon?????

And now back to the motorcycle project! I am back on the east coast and ready to get rolling with this again!  :cheerleader:  Although, working at Palatov Motorsports and touring the north west on the weekends was incredible! but anyways . . . 

I had a present in the mail just the other day:

[image: IMG_1539_zps7f9715d1.jpg]

[image: IMG_1540_zps83635b19.jpg]

[image: IMG_1542_zpsa7cfd043.jpg]

[image: IMG_1541_zps14befe28.jpg]

A lot to learn just from looking closely at this thing! a 848 frame!

More to come shortly . . .

Well, the plot just thickened substantially...

Been working on things a little bit every day recently! I have a great schedule this semester so I can do a little VFR work every day.

I have recently been focusing on the new clutch slave cylinder, doing a little bit every day, taking measurements, looking at the mounting position on the bike, and thinking of how to make mine. Today I spent a little over an hour on the lathe, mainly because setup stuff takes forever, but then had to do some homework then head off to work. 

[image: IMG_1719_zpsfcef9fe9.jpg]

[image: IMG_1721_zpsff8944fb.jpg]

[image: IMG_1720_zps0b7ece24.jpg]

Also, I have a buddy of mine doing some sketches for the fairings! Not that I'm anywhere near that, but he's pretty good with all that stuff and said he would do a few for me! Hopefully I can post those up soon!

ALSO! I was in Mt. Airy MD last night getting dinner, and I saw the most incredible sounding 5th generation ride up Main Street with the Wolf (I believe) underseat exhaust! Anybody on here from the Mt. Airy area?? Made me really miss being able to actually ride my VFR =/

Should have some machining pictures tomorrow!!

No maching today, just more setup :/ but if anybody wanted to know some of the dimensions of the VFR (and RC51 and I believe CBR as well) clutch slave cylinder to make their own, here they are:

 [image: IMG_1723_zpsab51ae03.jpg]

[image: IMG_1722_zpsa5733fef.jpg]

so hopefully, machining tomorrow!!!

which sub frame do you need the weight off? I have a few laying around.

Apologies for the late reply, I meant the standard VFR800 steel rear subframe weight, thanks.

which sub frame do you need the weight off? I have a few laying around.

Apologies for the late reply, I meant the standard VFR800 steel rear subframe weight, thanks.

5G or 6G?

Machining your own slave cylinder seems to be a lot of trouble when you could just buy one of these:

http://www.carbonpartz.net/id102.html

Fits RC51, CBR1100XX, RC45, VTR1000, and VFR800

Machining your own slave cylinder seems to be a lot of trouble when you could just buy one of these:

http://www.carbonpartz.net/id102.html

Fits RC51, CBR1100XX, RC45, VTR1000, and VFR800

Couldn't find a link to cost....

Machining your own slave cylinder seems to be a lot of trouble when you could just buy one of these:

http://www.carbonpartz.net/id102.html

Fits RC51, CBR1100XX, RC45, VTR1000, and VFR800

Couldn't find a link to cost....

$200, it's kind of hidden 

Machining your own slave cylinder seems to be a lot of trouble when you could just buy one of these:

http://www.carbonpartz.net/id102.html

Fits RC51, CBR1100XX, RC45, VTR1000, and VFR800

For a couple reasons. The site says "These will fit the RC30, RC45, RC51/Sp1/SP2 as well as the 2004-2007 CBR1000rr as well as some other Honda models with hydraulic clutches." although they don't specifically list the RC46, it will most likely fit, but that still just makes me nervous. Second, I need to make changes to my slave cylinder to allow for a future modification. But more on that later . . . The larger diameter piston would be nice though!!!

Also, I thought I remembered reading bad things about that site, and I just found the thread confirming that: http://www.rc51forum...php/t-6461.html

I just emailed the guy, I'd be willing to give him a chance, we'll see . . . 

Machining your own slave cylinder seems to be a lot of trouble when you could just buy one of these:

http://www.carbonpartz.net/id102.html

Fits RC51, CBR1100XX, RC45, VTR1000, and VFR800

Couldn't find a link to cost....

$200, it's kind of hidden 

Machining your own slave cylinder seems to be a lot of trouble when you could just buy one of these:

http://www.carbonpartz.net/id102.html

Fits RC51, CBR1100XX, RC45, VTR1000, and VFR800

For a couple reasons. The site says "These will fit the RC30, RC45, RC51/Sp1/SP2 as well as the 2004-2007 CBR1000rr as well as some other Honda models with hydraulic clutches." although they don't specifically list the RC46, it will most likely fit, but that still just makes me nervous. Second, I need to make changes to my slave cylinder to allow for a future modification. But more on that later . . . The larger diameter piston would be nice though!!!

I checked the part # for the VFR800 slave cylinder ass'y and matched the part "where it fits" to other Honda models.

Machining your own slave cylinder seems to be a lot of trouble when you could just buy one of these:

http://www.carbonpartz.net/id102.html

Fits RC51, CBR1100XX, RC45, VTR1000, and VFR800

Couldn't find a link to cost....

$200, it's kind of hidden 

Machining your own slave cylinder seems to be a lot of trouble when you could just buy one of these:

http://www.carbonpartz.net/id102.html

Fits RC51, CBR1100XX, RC45, VTR1000, and VFR800

For a couple reasons. The site says "These will fit the RC30, RC45, RC51/Sp1/SP2 as well as the 2004-2007 CBR1000rr as well as some other Honda models with hydraulic clutches." although they don't specifically list the RC46, it will most likely fit, but that still just makes me nervous. Second, I need to make changes to my slave cylinder to allow for a future modification. But more on that later . . . The larger diameter piston would be nice though!!!

I checked the part # for the VFR800 slave cylinder ass'y and matched the part "where it fits" to other Honda models.

Nice! Well then theres no need for me to be skeptical now! I emailed the guy and he said he'd consider making a one-off slave cylinder if I give him the part drawings. Having the larger piston diameter would definitely be nice! But wouldn't that mean that the Clutch Master Cylinder needs to push more fluid to get full disengagement?

Larger slave piston will mean easier clutch pull, but less slave cylinder travel for a given amount of hand lever travel.

At what point is it too big, and you cannot disengage the clutch with a full pull of the lever? I have no idea.

Machining your own slave cylinder seems to be a lot of trouble when you could just buy one of these:

http://www.carbonpartz.net/id102.html

$200 seems pretty good! Gee Rob, you keep costing me money here... this is certainly cheaper than Durbahn's cable clutch conversion though.

You're welcome!

Slow and steady recently. I've had the opportunity to do a little bit every day, which is good, but I really wish I could just drop everything and work on this bike and nothing else!

With a friends help, I was able to get the engine down off the "EazyRizer" onto a dolly, making it easier to work on things. 

Got to do some machining on the front sprocket cover, and a little bit of work on the CNC code for finishing the Clutch Slave Cylinder:

[image: IMG_1760_zps31baac83.jpg]

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Hopefully I'll have a finished salve cylinder to show you all shortly! =)

which sub frame do you need the weight off? I have a few laying around.

Apologies for the late reply, I meant the standard VFR800 steel rear subframe weight, thanks.

 
5G or 6G?

5G Please. Thanks.

Well, unfortunately I believe I contacted CarbonPartz for the last time today. He seemed very pleasant in our first few email exchanges, but then after regularly receiving responses in a day or so, I didn't hear from him in 3 or 4 days? So I wrote him once more, and his response made absolutely no sense! Then I asked him to clarify, and he told me to just build my own?

I don't doubt that he makes nice stuff, but unfortunately I appear to have had the same not so great experience that others have talked about online, luckily I didn't pay and get screwed like some others did!

The next step of CNC code for machining is done, should be running it tomorrow!

I got two pieces from him for my bike and it worked out great.

I had to pay first, because he said he builds them to order, and lots of people have flaked out on him after he put in the time and materiels to build them a piece.

Communication was fine, parts arrived no problems, and fit great.

Hmmm, well I'm sure some of the not so great stories told online of the company were a bit exaggerated. 

I don't mean to bash the company at all, I know that what I was asking for was a one-off thing (which is why I thought I'd have to make my own), but initially he said he'd do it, then he said very simply in his last email, "Sorry, build it."

I wish I could have worked it out with him though, he seems to make great things!

First side of the Slave Cylinder is DONE! but unfortunately I don't think that means that half of the work is done  :dry: At least I'm making progress! Slowly but surely . . . 

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More on the back side soon . . . . 

I'm thinking about things wayyyy down the road, but sometimes its good for me to take a step back from complicated machining stuff just for a bit:

What do you guys think of these:

http://store.saltlak...r-rearsets.html

Adjustable and still sporty!


 

why not sato racing rearsets?

The Sato Racing rearsets are pretty nice too! I just really like that these things are a bit more unique, not many companies are making rearsets that way! Most rearsets you find online all look so very very similar. 

I'm thinking about things wayyyy down the road, but sometimes its good for me to take a step back from complicated machining stuff just for a bit:

What do you guys think of these:

http://store.saltlak...r-rearsets.html

Adjustable and still sporty!


 

Dam  nice  and  great  price  ...

Its looking like a great weekend to start writing the code for the outline of the CSC. Some drawings and dimensions to start . . .
 

[image: CSC_zps94f40413.jpg]

 

Little by little, things are happening. My collection of Ducati parts is growing :) But first, the Clutch Slave Cylinder!

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This cut took me like 40 minutes!! machining can be incredibly tedious at times . . . 

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But now that it's down to the dimensions (roughly) of the original CSC, machining the outline should go much faster! and setup will be a little easier with the three mounting holes exposed. 

[image: IMG_1866_zps6a995933.jpg]

The outline should be simple, and should be finished soon! But then the more difficult part will be machining the holes for the bleeder and the clutch line Banjo Bolt. Anybody know the dimensions of a banjo bolt?! It looks to be awfully close to a M10-1.25 but I can't tell if theres a taper to it!?!? any help on that would be GREATLY appreciated!!

Now about those Ducati parts, I've always had this idea in my mind of what the "Ultimate" bike would be, and unfortunately (I say unfortunately only because of maintenance) I have always loved dry clutches! :) Don't know how it'll go, but there was a good deal on parts, so I figured I'd pick them up and see how close everything is! Looks like the Ducati basket is only slightly larger in diameter than the VFRs, which suprised me because the RC51 basket is MUCH larger than the VFRs!

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Just a thought... Have you considered getting a custom cam grind and opening up the intake ports to relieve the engine of its asthma? I believe someone on this forum has given his bike a new cam profile and it has livened it up nicely. A new cam profile and a port and polish should take it the next step, so you might not need to supercharge it if you get some decent weight losses with your build.

Just a thought... Have you considered getting a custom cam grind and opening up the intake ports to relieve the engine of its asthma? I believe someone on this forum has given his bike a new cam profile and it has livened it up nicely. A new cam profile and a port and polish should take it the next step, so you might not need to supercharge it if you get some decent weight losses with your build.

Dannytb,

I have absolutely considered that! 5th Gen Engine Modifications is probably the one you're thinking of! Theres definitely some cool stuff you can do with the VFR engine, but while planning this project (before I even bought the bike), I decided that weight reduction shouldn't be one of the top goals of the project. The VFR is a heavy bike, and theres no way around it ,even some of the guys who have gone to extremes on this forum, their bikes are still pretty heavy! while I absolutely do want to reduce weight where I can, I think it'd be wiser of me to just build a wild supermoto (after this bike is finished of course!) if having a light-weight bike is the main goal! 

So although I have discussed reducing weight here and there on the bike, the more important parts to me are some of the features that I plan on this bike having, such as the supercharger :) Maybe it's just a cool-factor that grinded cams just don't have (IMO), but ever since I watched toro's video for the 5th generation kit, I've had the itch to supercharge my bike! (1:03 and 2:36 in that video always put the biggest grin on my face!) 

Wow this thing has over 30,000 views! pretty cool!

You could always use the supercharger and a custom cam together... ;-)

You could always use the supercharger and a custom cam together... ;-)

I can't find anything at this moment that would confirm this: but I remember reading somewhere that a more aggressive cam profile isn't something that works well with any forced induction? Maybe I can ask Toro1 to confirm this . . .

But I can't imagine a port and polish being anything but helpful!

Forced induction and cam selection can be a bit counterintuitive at times and very dependent on the power adder of choice.  Turbos require a different ideal cam design than a roots setup, and a centrifugal requires a different setup yet.  The VFR actually has an incredibly good cam design for a centrifugal supercharger and the stock rev band -- low overlap, conservative duration, and decent lift (especially with the exhaust relative to the intake) combine to mean good power when not in boost, little wasted boost going out the tailpipe, and, most importantly, good power under boost.

The VFR has the most efficient hp per psi of any engine I've ever supercharged.  I looked into tweaking the cam setup to see if I could get significantly more power out of it, and after modeling nearly every spec, I couldn't come up with a better overall compromise.  You might gain some power by designing a new header and helping further expel those gases, but the real power gain is found in intercooling the charge and upping the boost.  With Arrow breaking 200whp on his 6th-gen, I'd say these engines breathe pretty well with the stock cam setup...

How many PSI boost is Arrow using? Must be quite a bit.

Ahhh I just wrote out this long explanation then the computer at school signed me out :( haha okay here I go again . . . Thanks everyone for the kind comments. So how it all works . . . 

It starts at the countershaft. Christini welds a secondary sprocket onto the OEM front sprocket, I'm not a fan of this idea which is why I'm looking into making (or having made) a custom countershaft:

[image: 2009-Christini-KTM-300-XC-24_zps1c22b829]

^^See the need for a modified/custom VFR Clutch Slave Cylinder anybody?? can't have the clutch line-in protruding right over/around the secondary sprocket!

That new sprocket drives a chain up around/under the gas tank:

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The sprocket under the gas tank drives a gear box that transfers the power through a shaft up to the front of the frame:

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The drive-shaft ends in the head tube ( I believe this is the correct term? head tube, or neck tube? Wherever the triple tree pivots). Inside of the head tube there are three gears, looks a bit like a differential:

[image: 146-1106-01-zelectric-superbikechristini]

Then from there, power is transferred into the lower triple, through two chains, then into two shafts that run down and in front of the forks:

[image: 146-1106-06-zelectric-superbikechristini]

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Then power is sent into the axle clamps, through a few gears in each individual axle clamp, then into the hub. Now what happens from there is still not clear to me. I have to disassemble the supplied hub for a wire-rimmed dirt bike wheel. I know that there is a sprague clutch/bearing in the hub (one way clutch/bearing), but what I'm not sure of is if its just pressed in without any further way of securing it to the hub and therefore adequately transferring power. Clearly Mr. Christini has had great success with it, so I won't question his design, I just won't understand if it is only pressed in. I would guess (admittedly, a bit ignorantly) that at full rotational power (70 ft-lbs of torque) that a pressed in bearing that doesn't free-spin in the forward direction would slip? but maybe not . . . 

[image: 146-1106-05-zelectric-superbikeshafts_zp]

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Now some videos, here are a few good videos that explain the kit and how it works:

[video: http://youtube.com/embed/cVPVdwdH74o?html5=1&fs=1]

[video: http://youtube.com/embed/RXx2qbt6-8A?html5=1&fs=1]

[video: http://youtube.com/embed/nczZ-MlwIcw?html5=1&fs=1]

[video: http://youtube.com/embed/3F8TKmTUgYk?html5=1&fs=1]

And here are a few good videos of the off-road christini kit in action!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfBXlWS94AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea2j2gfs_z4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE14nCmZzh4

CatiePotatie hopefully that explains it all! Pictures to come will be of Christini AWD parts, and custom AWD parts that will be going on the RVF :) Exciting stuff! Thanks again for the kind comments guys!

That's a lot of complexity, chains to lube, and slop in the system due to tolerance stacking.

Didn't Yamaha have a hydraulic 2wd dirtbike system awhile back????
YuuuuuuuuuuuuuP!

http://www.mcnews.co...2trac/page1.htm


And more to the point of our little tale here, they also did a 2wd R-1 with hydraulic front drive:

http://www.motorcycl...2WD-Review.aspx

Yes they absolutely did! I remember doing a lot of reading when each of those came out. One of the articles I read about the setup, on the R1 I believe, said that there was a lot of power loss in the system. I'll have to find that article, and read through the two you posted, to see if I can find that information again. 

Now compared to the WR450 and R1 2WD setup, Christini's kit is more complex, but it still seemed like a better option (for me at least) than trying to make a hydraulic setup work on the VFR. I think the only chain that will regularly require lubing is the one running up the side of the bike. Everything else is relatively enclosed and won't need it as often. I don't even consider the hydraulic system as an option simply because there aren't really any bikes or kits on the market, and for a college student with very low income, I don't have the money to buy and test all kinds of parts and designs, then end up with a few expensive parts on the shelf because one way didn't work. The Christini kit is already here, being produced, and it is modify-able! Something I can alter, and something I know how to alter to fit my application. 

One day I want to design and build a two wheel drive motorcycle that has a swingarm front and rear! Reading I've done and conversations I've had with engineers and some serious riders have led me to believe that swingarms (in the front, think Bimota) are far superior to forks.  Anyways, when I was planning this project I was looking to do something different. I cannot yet build my own engine, although I hope to one day, so I chose one of my favorite engines, and am building around that. Hopefully it comes out nice and I'll learn a lot to apply to the next project!! :)

edit: Here's one of the articles that I read about power loss, Christini AWD vs. Yamaha 2WD: http://www.gizmag.com/go/7849/ I'll see if I can find a few more later . . . 

Wow, yeah that is complex.. but at least the power delivery through turning handlebars makes sense now.

Previously the only one I'd seen had a weird looking swingarm at the front.. kind of like the Bimota Tesi but I think it was a custom job as that one just seems to be rear drive

Very interested to see progress now  :goofy:

CatiePotatie

I know one guy made a rendering of a pretty cool bike with a swingarm front and rear that was two wheel drive. Other than that I only know of ohlins' two bikes, christini, and this one: http://newtechdev.com/awd.html

These would make things considerably cheaper, but heavier. With this project, weight is somewhat of a consideration, and is definitely higher on the list than looks. So my initial feeling is to go for the more expensive :( PM wheels . . . we'll see

I gotta say that the rims look far cooler than the spokes. Never been a fan of them personally. And honestly, I believe this bike is going for the cool factor more than performance. And those rims are definitely cool.