Seems like there is a lot of talk regarding stators and R/R's lately. Well a lot of the time actually. I ran into a scenario today and need some help.
I started and ran the bike briefly last weekend while mounting tire chocks in my trailer. Parked the bike this whole week, went to start it today and not enough juice to crank it over.
I put a new battery in the bike back in October when I bought it. I have a multi function Volt meter hooked up, like the one HS uses that does, clock, temp, lap times etc.
When the bike is sitting for extended periods it reads in the 11+ volt range and always fires right up. Is that a normal reading in that situation?
When I am running at RPM, it indicates 13.3 Volts or so if I remember correctly. Even with my Gerbing jacket plugged in it will indicate charging unless I back off and just idle.
Any ideas? Just a freak thing?
right now on the trickle charger it is climbing in voltage reading to where it is at 13.7 right now.
After shutting off and sitting about a minute, 12.8
Do all of these numbers sound about right? Is the system doing what it is suppose to do? Was my weak battery a fluke?
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I ran a similar test on my 98, nothing extra on the bike (electrical), and got the following:
OFF 12.6 IDLE, 13.6 13.7 V 2k RPM 13.3 3k RPM 13
I think either you are ok but I got a problem. My R/R might not be working right, the service manual says to check at 5k RPM and it should be 14.0 to 14.8V at that RPM. I will try that tomorrow.
Can I add my problem? Not many answers, so maybe I won't get much help...
I ad problems last year, and diagnosed a RR problem. Replaced it and battery. I couldn't get 14v at 4-5k rpm. Seemed to be working fine, otherwise.
Bikes been sitting for a month or so, and battery is dead, gone, no more...
Charged it for a few hours, and no start. Charged it overnight, nothing. Won't start on charger, even with start mode on charger. Put the CBR battery in and it fires right up. With the VFR battery, won't even bump start. Started the bike jumped off my truck battery, and it died immediately after removing the cables.
Bottom line: Battery is done, won't hold a charge. Perhaps a dead cell?
Charging voltage with the CBR battery installed was around 12.6v with the fast idle (around 4k rpm) and about 13.6 at idle. Why is it higher at idle, that 4k?
Battery is less than a year old, so why won't it take a charge?
I rode it down a hill to try to start it, and the dash lights came on as the motor was turning. Alternator is providing something... Battery wouldn't allow suffecient current to pass thru to run though, I'm guessing.
Battery is Yuasa, and bike is 1999. Don't know why the battery would die like that after only a month or so of non-use. I'm buying a new one, and a battery tender!
Can I add my problem? Not many answers, so maybe I won't get much help...
I ad problems last year, and diagnosed a RR problem. Replaced it and battery. I couldn't get 14v at 4-5k rpm. Seemed to be working fine, otherwise.
Bikes been sitting for a month or so, and battery is dead, gone, no more... Charged it for a few hours, and no start. Charged it overnight, nothing. Won't start on charger, even with start mode on charger. Put the CBR battery in and it fires right up. With the VFR battery, won't even bump start. Started the bike jumped off my truck battery, and it died immediately after removing the cables.
Bottom line: Battery is done, won't hold a charge. Perhaps a dead cell? Charging voltage with the CBR battery installed was around 12.6v with the fast idle (around 4k rpm) and about 13.6 at idle. Why is it higher at idle, that 4k? Battery is less than a year old, so why won't it take a charge?
I rode it down a hill to try to start it, and the dash lights came on as the motor was turning. Alternator is providing something... Battery wouldn't allow suffecient current to pass thru to run though, I'm guessing.
Battery is Yuasa, and bike is 1999. Don't know why the battery would die like that after only a month or so of non-use. I'm buying a new one, and a battery tender!
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Anyone have thoughts on why my voltage reads higher at idle than at 4k? Is the alt/stator only putting out 12.6v or so, and the battery was holding 13.6? Reading the alt/stator voltage at 4k, and reading just the battery voltage at idle?
Anyone have thoughts on why my voltage reads higher at idle than at 4k? Is the alt/stator only putting out 12.6v or so, and the battery was holding 13.6? Reading the alt/stator voltage at 4k, and reading just the battery voltage at idle?
In the automotive world, this translates into a faulty voltage regulator. I'd do a double check of the grounds and battery connections.
On a side note, when I installed my F4I r/r I also ran a new 8ga battery ground to the harness ground point, and also ran a new 8ga ground to the engine from the battery. Seems to like, so I'm leaving it.
I found that when the bike is cold - just started- I get a higher reading at about 1500rpm than at 4000. Once I have been for a ride, if I recheck it the reading its higher at 4000???? This is with a new RR and battery.
I use a battery tender most of the time, alternating between the two bikes, depending on which one is being used most.
I would recheck the battery after the bike has been sitting over-night. If it can't keep a charge over-night, I think it's dead.
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Went out this morning and checked the reading, sitting at 12.3V Fired right up. Not being an electrical guru, is the drop from 12.6/12.8 to 12.3 overnight to be expected and normal?
I know I have read articles and/or posts on electrical problems of the VFR so many times I think I am going to send off to Honda to establish myself on their R&D payroll...
Otherwise, Teleskier, just curious, although I Know I have read this before (I just do not have the time to research the archives), why didn't you put your voltmeter on a switched relay? Of course, it doesn't pull that much, but, why tempt a system to keep draining when the system has the worst characteristics??
I know I have read articles and/or posts on electrical problems of the VFR so many times I think I am going to send off to Honda to establish mysekf on their R&D payroll...
Otherwise, Teleskier, just curious, although I Know I have read this before (I just do not have the time to research the archives), why didn't you put your voltmeter on a switched relay? Of course, it doesn't pull that much, but, why tempt a system to keep draining when the system has the worst characteristics??
No biggee... Jus' curious... Battery shutting down.... Bzzzzzzzzzzrrrn. :beer:
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honestly...I am an electrical dumbass. I don't mind asking some questions but feel out of place sometimes with what seems to be very simple things...like a switched relay. I have no idea what that is or how to wire such a thing.
The idea is easy.. Imagine the light switch in your kitchen.. the light is ONLY on when you "engage" the switch....
Same idea as the voltmeter...any switched relay (ie:license plate light) ONLY turns on, or receives power when "engaged"..in this case, when you turn the key on... So, if you add a relay in to the license plate light switchedline, you can maintain your voltmeter only in "engaged", or keyed on status...
Anyone have thoughts on why my voltage reads higher at idle than at 4k? Is the alt/stator only putting out 12.6v or so, and the battery was holding 13.6? Reading the alt/stator voltage at 4k, and reading just the battery voltage at idle?
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Kev, I have no thoughts :D just comparing my readings to yours. I too have 13.9-14.1 readings while at idle, and run between 13.2-13.7 about/above 4k rpms. I have my volt meter hooked directly to the battery, always hot. At rest with key out/off, the volt meter reads a constant 12.6, rain or shine, cold or hot. I only have about 7400 miles on the bike, so I would not think the R/R went bad sitting for so long? I've never had any starting problem either. This is a new battery in '04, and each winter is placed in the basement with a tender. I'd put the bike there also if I could figure a way to make the turn at the bottom of the stairs......
Anyone have thoughts on why my voltage reads higher at idle than at 4k?? Is the alt/stator only putting out 12.6v or so, and the battery was holding 13.6?? Reading the alt/stator voltage at 4k, and reading just the battery voltage at idle?
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I double checked today, mine idles at 13.65 volts and drops to 12.8 volts at 5k RPM. http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/sad.gif Everone says this a sign of R/R being shot, so I am going to replace it.
As to your situation, when you connect the battery it is always in the same circuit with the alternator and R/R etc. so I dont see how your meter would read the battery at idle and the alternator output at 4k RPM.
More likely, at 4k RPM there is a larger load on the battery. This would drop the voltage output on the battery. Ideally the alternator recharges the battery via the regulator / rectifier. But seems like yours is not working. I have no idea if it is the alternator or the R/R.
I know you said you replaced your R/R last year but maybe it is shot again (unlikely I guess) or maybe you have bad connections to your R/R.
honestly...I am an electrical dumbass. I don't mind asking some questions but feel out of place sometimes with what seems to be very simple things...like a switched relay. I have no idea what that is or how to wire such a thing.
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Firstly, your voltage readings are perfectly OK - don't imagine a problem where there isn't one. A switched relay is just a relay that is hooked into any circuit that isn't live until the ignition is turned on. SO, in your case, if you don't want the voltmeter drawing some (miniscule) current when the engine's not running, instead of the voltmeter being hooked straight to the battery, put a relay in between the battery and the voltmeter, with the switched side going to say the taillight circuit. Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. I always found it useful when in the garage to be able to glance at the resting voltage of the VTR's battery, so there were no surprises. Just make sure your voltmeter was connected so that the illimination circuit only operates when the key is on. While the meter itself draws minimal current, the lights in the meter draw a bit more.
Just make sure your voltmeter was connected so that the illimination circuit only operates when the key is on. While the meter itself draws minimal current, the lights in the meter draw a bit more.
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Enzed: I am not familliar with that type. Mine is the popular C-Volt model but there i s only 1 pair of wires into the voltmeter. Do you have an example of any voltmeters that have the display powered separately from the meter circut. I would be interested.
New battery, original stator and r/r = 12.8 at speed. Replaced r/r w/new factory upgraded version, now 13.48 at 5 K. Manual calls for 14.0-14.8 at 5 K. Idles at 13+ (1K) and pops to 14.02 at 1,500 K), drops thereafter as rpm increase to 5 K, when it shows 13.48.
Everything checks out fine statically (.2 ohm on stator, no continuity, good ground, battery voltage through harness, etc.). Though stator checks out statically, will now do dynamic check to measure VAC and if below 50 and/or no equal on stator legs, will replace stator. Not sure what else it can be.
New battery, original stator and r/r = 12.8 at speed. Replaced r/r w/new factory upgraded version, now 13.48 at 5 K. Manual calls for 14.0-14.8 at 5 K. Idles at 13+ (1K) and pops to 14.02 at 1,500 K), drops thereafter as rpm increase to 5 K, when it shows 13.48.
Everything checks out fine statically (.2 ohm on stator, no continuity, good ground, battery voltage through harness, etc.). Though stator checks out statically, will now do dynamic check to measure VAC and if below 50 and/or no equal on stator legs, will replace stator. Not sure what else it can be.
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Testing my stator as best I know how. Assuming I have the correct setting on the meter... Showing .3ohm, and no continuity to ground. I took it off, and approx. 2/3 of the stator is darker color than the rest. The stator plug to the R/R was a little toasty from the original R/R, but didn't seem damaged. The new R/R plugs are still tip top shape. Not sure I should replace the stator... I'll try another new battery and Tender. FWIW, the dead battery is down to 5v sitting on the bench for a couple days. Max it got on the charger was 9v. Still don't know what killed it... Just sitting on the bike for a month? I understand that it could be discharged from that, but why won't it charge?
no alarm system. The only thing I have that I know is running all the time is the multi function volt meter and the clock on the stock dash.
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You may have a current leak somewhere. There is a thread on this around here somewhere. Take a look. In essence, with the KEY OFF, disconnect the positive lead (neg should work too) and bridge it with a multi-meter in current mode. If you seeing more than a few milliamps try disconnecting various subsystems until you find the one that reduces the flow.
I know that with my c-volt meter I can watch as the meter dicharges the battery over time. I kept a good eye on it over the winter and after about 6 weeks the voltage had dropped far enough to make me uncomfortable (below 12V). The c-volt draws 1-2 mA of current continuously whereas the clock on the bike draws much less (I measured it once, forgot what it was exactly).
You may have a current leak somewhere. There is a thread on this around here somewhere. Take a look. In essence, with the KEY OFF, disconnect the positive lead (neg should work too) and bridge it with a multi-meter in current mode. If you seeing more than a few milliamps try disconnecting various subsystems until you find the one that reduces the flow.
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Re: "Neg should work too." I saw that in a manual (maybe the factory one) and got "000" for a milliamp reading, which sounds good (no drain), but shouldn't a bike with a clock always show at least a small drain? I'll try using the positive terminal when I check it again.
Testing my stator as best I know how. Assuming I have the correct setting on the meter... Showing .3ohm, and no continuity to ground. I took it off, and approx. 2/3 of the stator is darker color than the rest. The stator plug to the R/R was a little toasty from the original R/R, but didn't seem damaged. The new R/R plugs are still tip top shape. Not sure I should replace the stator... I'll try another new battery and Tender. FWIW, the dead battery is down to 5v sitting on the bench for a couple days. Max it got on the charger was 9v. Still don't know what killed it... Just sitting on the bike for a month? I understand that it could be discharged from that, but why won't it charge?
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March '06 Rider Magazine, the Service or Tech section - the guy answering the questions responds to a Harley rider re: stator issues and said he learned a long time ago to always replace the stator when he replaces the r/r, and vice versa. Presumably, he does this even though he certainly knows about the static tests for a "good" stator. That tells me he doesn't trust those tests to tell the whole stator wellness story.
He then talks about testing the stator dynamically, where you disconnect the stator from the r/r and probe the ends w/multimeter set for VAC (volts A/C). If he doesn't get 60-70 VAC at 5 K rpm AND/OR he doesn't get an equal reading off of each leg, he replaces the stator. The Electrex flow chart shows the same test, but allows for as low as 50 VAC before calling the stator bad.
Re:? "Neg should work too."? I saw that in a manual (maybe the factory one) and got "000" for a milliamp reading, which sounds good (no drain), but shouldn't a bike with a clock always show at least a small drain?? I'll try using the positive terminal when I check it again.
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You may have a drain in a system that comes on when the bike is switched on.
Also, there are multimeters that are not very accurate when measuring 1mA. There is always some drain from the battery, it's just it may be less than the lowest amount of current your meter can measure.
As long as you place the meter in series with the battery (such that one lead of the meter is connected to the battery and the other is connected to the bike where the battery would normally be connected), it doesn't matter if you place it on the negative terminal or the positive terminal.
You should disconnect the battery ground first. So typically, you would put the meter between the ground (-) terminal of the battery and the black lead of your bike.
ok. bought a multi meter. Bike measures .98mA by itself. With the volt meter in place it measure 9.8mA
Way too much I think. Why would it be drawing so much? Bad connections somewhere? Again, I am an electrical idiot.
oh..and the battery itself measures 12.4 V
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I'm an electric illiterate.
As I understand parasitic current loss (key off, and battery is draining, or, key on, motor running, current being drained away, rather than going to battery to restore charge), there are twp possible causes.
First, you can have a short somewhere in the harness/switches, etc. that is grounded and losing enough current w/o blowing a fuse.
Second, the r/r can have bad diodes (there are three one-way diodes that are supposed to prevent the backflow of electricty through the r/r).
not sure what all that means in relation to my readings with and without the volt meter hooked up. Does that mean I may have a bad connection in the voltmeter wiring?
Enzed: I am not familliar with that type. Mine is the popular C-Volt model but there i s only 1 pair of wires into the voltmeter. Do you have an example of any voltmeters that have the display powered separately from the meter circut. I would be interested.
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Bob, The one I had on my VTR was like this, at least until the wire to the illumination failed. The same wire also powered the coloured LEDs at the top that gave "battery voltage at a glance". I can''t remember the brand, but it was one I bought at a consumer electronics store. [image: Posted Image] border='0' alt='user posted image' /> instruments.jpg
not sure what all that means in relation to my readings with and without the volt meter hooked up. Does that mean I may have a bad connection in the voltmeter wiring?
Is the .98mA draw without it connected ok?
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Sorry. I thought you were looking on feedback on where excessive parasitic drains could occur. From what I understand, your number for the bike, itself, is OK, considering a clock is running/draining. Your 9.8 ma w/vm attached doesn't sound bad, but I'm not sure what the vm is supposed to draw. Perhaps it says on the back? Still, I understand the total draw to be quite small and would require substantial time before causing the need for a battery recharge.
Teleskier: At 10mA your meter is a large load on your battery, when you figure the load over time. At that rate, a fully charged brand new stock battery would be completely dead in as little as 1 month. If the bike goes for more than a week at a time without being ran, this discharge pattern will cause damage to the battery, accelerating the wear and tear on the plates from the repeated deep discharging.
I would recommend installing a relay setup to power the meter (and would be useful for other things, like heated gear) or connecting the meter to an ignition controlled source, such as the license plate light. Alternatively you could purchase and install a different meter with a lower current draw.
no alarm system. The only thing I have that I know is running all the time is the multi function volt meter and the clock on the stock dash.
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I had the same issues after installing the same brand multi-meter. The install directions call for wiring one hot lead directly to the battery and a second hot lead to a switched circuit such as the license plate light. Wiring this way keeps the meter "hot" and you can read time, voltage, and temperature even with the ignition switched off. Nice feature but this sucker pulls 10 milliamps and will drop open circuit battery voltage to a significant degree over a fairly short period of time. I changed the wiring to pull current off a relay I previously installed for heated grips and problem solved. You do lose the clock function as it re-sets each time you turn on the ignition but we already had a perfectly good clock anyway.
I think there might be some confusion here, some info just in case there is: A multi-meter can measure voltage, resistance and current. When measuring voltage the meter goes in parallel with what you are measuring , when measuring current (amps) the meter goes in series with what you are measuring. As is shown in this very scientific schematic:
You NEVER place the meter in parallel with the battery to measure current (would either burn out the fuse in your meter or discharge your battery very fast). Also measuring current without connecting the battery to the bike is useless, this is electrically the same as running a wire straight from the positive to the negative terminal of the battery.
When measuring voltage, the multi meter has a very high resistance (like air). This means it draws very little current from whatever it is measuring (ideally this current is zero). Removing the meter from the setup while measuring voltage should have very little effect on whats going on in the rest of the circuit (ideally no effect).
When measuring current, the multi meter has a very low resistance (like a piece of wire). This means it has a very small voltage difference across it, allows as much current as the system can source (ideally zero resistance like a perfect connection). Removing the meter from the setup while measuring current breaks the current flow, (opens the circuit) in the case of your bike, disconnects the battery from the bike.
As far as i can tell I did what you are saying. To measure mA I had it hooked in series.
My voltage reading for the battery was done terminal to terminal in parallel.
Correct?
By the way, I just took off that damn volt meter, similar to the one above in picture, probably a newer model. I will look into the C-Volts to see what they draw. I don't need all the other functions anyway.
New battery, original stator and r/r = 12.8 at speed. Replaced r/r w/new factory upgraded version, now 13.48 at 5 K. Manual calls for 14.0-14.8 at 5 K. Idles at 13+ (1K) and pops to 14.02 at 1,500 K), drops thereafter as rpm increase to 5 K, when it shows 13.48.
Everything checks out fine statically (.2 ohm on stator, no continuity, good ground, battery voltage through harness, etc.). Though stator checks out statically, will now do dynamic check to measure VAC and if below 50 and/or no equal on stator legs, will replace stator. Not sure what else it can be.
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FYI, tested stator output dynamically and found 59.6 VAC on all three legs. Will now re-do grounds to get over 14 v at 5K. Anyone know which ones I should do and where they are? The ground strap for the battery goes to the fuel rail? I can't get a wrench or socket on it - is there a trick? Any other grounds I should look at?
As I mentioned earlier, the c-volt meter draws 1-2 mA. It has the same effect on your battery if it's active all the time, just takes longer. If you're going to leave your motorcycle parked for long periods of time, it's best to make sure all the loads on the battery are disconnected or you have a battery tender hooked up.
Some time back I did a current versus voltage plot of the c-volt meter using the calibration standard equipment at work. The lcd units I have both draw the same current, starting at less than 1mA around 6 volts, and linearly increasing to approximately 2mA at 18 volts.
I haven't tested the LED version, although I do have one. Perhaps I'll hook it up to my 12V rig at home and check it with my Fluke. I'll let you know!
Chris
End of thread · 46 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 12 Apr 2013
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