Today i took my bike to work(i don't have a garage)to get ready for a trip next month. Last week i worked on Doug5551's bike, and got another 1/2 volt just by cleaning connections. Well i felt good that i could replicate that. If you have read my last posts, i have been slowly making sure my connections are clean and tight. I have not have had problems, but i don't want to get stranded. Anyway, i worked on my positive connections last time, today it was ground (negative) day. The ground is just as important as the positive because electricity has to go in a complete circle, but the ground is often neglected. I took off the negative battery cable completely, and unscrewed the ground on the right side of the frame. i used a dremel with a wire wheel attachment to clean the mounting surfaces, it looked clean, but alot of corrosion came off the frame. how aluminum corrodes is it oxidizes and puts a coating of aluminum oxide on the surface, this coating is a insulator, bad for electricity. After getting that stuff of of my mounting surfaces, i then soldered the connectors to the wires(i hate crimps). I ohmed out the cable after i did this, and i got 2/10's of an ohm from battery to frame, good enough. Before this, when i checked the voltage i was getting 14 volts at idle and 13.3 at 5k rpm. It was sufficient for the last couple of years. After this easy cleaning, i am getting 14.3 at idle, and 14.1 at 5k rpm. I believe this is something that everyone can do, and it provided some real results. I don't have a digital camera, so no pics,sorry.
That all makes sense. I've read elsewhere a bad or weak ground will cause the voltage drop, which I understand also causes more juice to back up into the r/r, making it hotter, etc. I cleaned my frame ground which already "looked" ok, but I did not Dremel down to fresh aluminum because it did look OK. I'll take another whack at that. Nor did I solder the wires.
What did you do about the ground at the brake part where the batt's neg terminal lands?
Misspent Youth, Jan 21 2007, 08:10 AMThat all makes sense. I've read elsewhere a bad or weak ground will cause the voltage drop, which I understand also causes more juice to back up into the r/r, making it hotter, etc. I cleaned my frame ground which already "looked" ok, but I did not Dremel down to fresh aluminum because it did look OK. I'll take another whack at that. Nor did I solder the wires.
What did you do about the ground at the brake part where the batt's neg terminal lands?
The ground at the brake part, i unscrewed the bolt and took it out(it is a long one too) the took the bolt to a wire wheel and cleaned it up. The reason for that is i am not going to take the brake valve off, too much work, so i am going to let the bolt be my ground connection. Where ever the bolt touches the ground connector i cleaned up, also the threads because that is where the ground is going to contact the frame. This is a pretty good idea because the bolt won't corrode in the hole, not much oxygen gets there. Just clean the threads up so you get a good connection. There is something else to do for that, take a 12 gauge wire, wick the ends with solder and go from the battery terminal to the frame, the engine already does this, but more won't hurt. I also cleaned up the brake valve where the connector touches, the dremel gets in there nicely. When you do this, you will see alot of dust come off it, that is the aluminum oxide, but don't just touch it and go, spend some time there, the oxide is very hard and takes some time to get through it.
Misspent Youth, Jan 21 2007, 08:10 AMThat all makes sense. I've read elsewhere a bad or weak ground will cause the voltage drop, which I understand also causes more juice to back up into the r/r, making it hotter, etc. I cleaned my frame ground which already "looked" ok, but I did not Dremel down to fresh aluminum because it did look OK. I'll take another whack at that. Nor did I solder the wires.
What did you do about the ground at the brake part where the batt's neg terminal lands?
The ground at the brake part, i unscrewed the bolt and took it out(it is a long one too) the took the bolt to a wire wheel and cleaned it up. The reason for that is i am not going to take the brake valve off, too much work, so i am going to let the bolt be my ground connection. Where ever the bolt touches the ground connector i cleaned up, also the threads because that is where the ground is going to contact the frame. This is a pretty good idea because the bolt won't corrode in the hole, not much oxygen gets there. Just clean the threads up so you get a good connection. There is something else to do for that, take a 12 gauge wire, wick the ends with solder and go from the battery terminal to the frame, the engine already does this, but more won't hurt. I also cleaned up the brake valve where the connector touches, the dremel gets in there nicely. When you do this, you will see alot of dust come off it, that is the aluminum oxide, but don't just touch it and go, spend some time there, the oxide is very hard and takes some time to get through it.
khyron, Jan 22 2007, 07:33 AMThere is something else to do for that, take a 12 gauge wire, wick the ends with solder and go from the battery terminal to the frame, the engine already does this, but more won't hurt.
Good stuff, khyron! fing02.gif When I rewired the charging system on my '90 VFR, one of the things I did was double up the grounds, as the R/R came with 7 wires: 3 stator wires, two grounds and two power wires. I figured I might as well use them all, and connected one ground to the earth by the coolant pipe between the engine V, and the other to the battery.
When rewiring my accessories in the weekend I came across the grounds for the 800 - hadn't really noted before where they were. I'll have to attack them this weekend, methinks.
Just saw this on the Euro board, under Technical Issues, topmost Stickee re: Electrical Issues, then topmost thread under that, about halfway through the piece:
"Output Voltage Test As alluded to already, the R/R fails when hot, but it can seem to recover when it's cooled down again. The ideal time to do this test immediately after a ride round, if possible without stopping the engine and remove the seat using the spare key.
1. With the voltmeter (set to the volts DC range) connected to the battery, at 4000 - 5000 rpm with the lights off you should have anywhere between 13.5 and 15.5 volts.[/b] 2. Turning the lights on could cause the voltage to drop by up to 0.5 volts.
Anything seriously outside those ranges could indicate the R/R is giving up the ghost.
[b]Although Haynes specify the charging voltage should be 14.2 volts for the FiW/FiX models. It's nice if you can get it, but don't worry if you can't. For example, the upgraded SH689DA model regulates at 13.8 volts - chase the 14.2 volts and you'll be throwing a lot of serviceable R/Rs away. Another oddment, is some people say the lights should get brighter when you rev the engine. That isn't necessarily the case. The SH689DA model can provide more voltage at idle (or slightly above it depending on what idle speed you've got set) than at higher revs, for example, the one on my VFR provides 14.2 volts at idle, but 13.7 volts at 5000 rpm.
Please be aware that multimeters can have slight errors between them. What one is reading could be very slightly different on another."
Now we're getting nowhere! Seriously, either the writer is off-base (certainly possible), or most of our electrical systems are operating just fine.
khyron, Jan 20 2007, 09:03 PMI ohmed out the cable after i did this, and i got 2/10's of an ohm from battery to frame, good enough.
How do you perform this check? Put one lead on the battery negative post and the other on the frame, somewhere near where the ground strap is attached? I presume you leave the ground straps in place.
What are the "good" and "acceptable" ohm readings for resistance checks like this (digital VM)?
Do you then check anything between the brake-thing ground and the frame? Not necessary?
khyron, Jan 20 2007, 09:03 PMI ohmed out the cable after i did this, and i got 2/10's of an ohm from battery to frame, good enough.
How do you perform this check? Put one lead on the battery negative post and the other on the frame, somewhere near where the ground strap is attached? I presume you leave the ground straps in place.
What are the "good" and "acceptable" ohm readings for resistance checks like this (digital VM)?
Do you then check anything between the brake-thing ground and the frame? Not necessary?
Thx.
The acceptable readings are up to your multimeter, mine reads 1/10's of an ohm with just the leads together, so the reading of 2/10's of an ohm is very good, i would say under 1 ohm is acceptable, under 1/2 an ohm is great. I went from the neg post to the aluminum part of the frame that is rough near the fuel tank. If that is reading good, then the brake thing is also good.
BTW my R/R is the -11, the first gen. I also have a fan on top to help it out.
khyron, Jan 23 2007, 02:54 PMThe acceptable readings are up to your multimeter, mine reads 1/10's of an ohm with just the leads together, so the reading of 2/10's of an ohm is very good, i would say under 1 ohm is acceptable, under 1/2 an ohm is great. I went from the neg post to the aluminum part of the frame that is rough near the fuel tank. If that is reading good, then the brake thing is also good.
BTW my R/R is the -11, the first gen. I also have a fan on top to help it out.
Perfecto. Very helpful. Thx. Mine's outputting 13.94v @ 5k w/new everything. I'll ohm-check the ground as is and, if >.5 ohm, clean them up with the dremel, solder the wires into the metal clips, re-check the ohm reading to determine improvement, then check voltage output dynamically. And my wife says I'm no fun.
khyron, Jan 20 2007, 11:03 PMToday i took my bike to work(i don't have a garage)to get ready for a trip next month. Last week i worked on Doug5551's bike, and got another 1/2 volt just by cleaning connections. Well i felt good that i could replicate that. If you have read my last posts, i have been slowly making sure my connections are clean and tight. I have not have had problems, but i don't want to get stranded. Anyway, i worked on my positive connections last time, today it was ground (negative) day. The ground is just as important as the positive because electricity has to go in a complete circle, but the ground is often neglected. I took off the negative battery cable completely, and unscrewed the ground on the right side of the frame. i used a dremel with a wire wheel attachment to clean the mounting surfaces, it looked clean, but alot of corrosion came off the frame. how aluminum corrodes is it oxidizes and puts a coating of aluminum oxide on the surface, this coating is a insulator, bad for electricity. After getting that stuff of of my mounting surfaces, i then soldered the connectors to the wires(i hate crimps). I ohmed out the cable after i did this, and i got 2/10's of an ohm from battery to frame, good enough. Before this, when i checked the voltage i was getting 14 volts at idle and 13.3 at 5k rpm. It was sufficient for the last couple of years. After this easy cleaning, i am getting 14.3 at idle, and 14.1 at 5k rpm. I believe this is something that everyone can do, and it provided some real results. I don't have a digital camera, so no pics,sorry.
khyron, Jan 20 2007, 11:03 PMToday i took my bike to work(i don't have a garage)to get ready for a trip next month. Last week i worked on Doug5551's bike, and got another 1/2 volt just by cleaning connections. Well i felt good that i could replicate that. If you have read my last posts, i have been slowly making sure my connections are clean and tight. I have not have had problems, but i don't want to get stranded. Anyway, i worked on my positive connections last time, today it was ground (negative) day. The ground is just as important as the positive because electricity has to go in a complete circle, but the ground is often neglected. I took off the negative battery cable completely, and unscrewed the ground on the right side of the frame. i used a dremel with a wire wheel attachment to clean the mounting surfaces, it looked clean, but alot of corrosion came off the frame. how aluminum corrodes is it oxidizes and puts a coating of aluminum oxide on the surface, this coating is a insulator, bad for electricity. After getting that stuff of of my mounting surfaces, i then soldered the connectors to the wires(i hate crimps). I ohmed out the cable after i did this, and i got 2/10's of an ohm from battery to frame, good enough. Before this, when i checked the voltage i was getting 14 volts at idle and 13.3 at 5k rpm. It was sufficient for the last couple of years. After this easy cleaning, i am getting 14.3 at idle, and 14.1 at 5k rpm. I believe this is something that everyone can do, and it provided some real results. I don't have a digital camera, so no pics,sorry.
Good Info!! Thanks! fing02.gif
Anybody tried diaelectric grease to stave off future corrosion?
khyron, Jan 23 2007, 02:54 PMThe acceptable readings are up to your multimeter, mine reads 1/10's of an ohm with just the leads together, so the reading of 2/10's of an ohm is very good, i would say under 1 ohm is acceptable, under 1/2 an ohm is great. I went from the neg post to the aluminum part of the frame that is rough near the fuel tank. If that is reading good, then the brake thing is also good.
BTW my R/R is the -11, the first gen. I also have a fan on top to help it out.
Perfecto. Very helpful. Thx. Mine's outputting 13.94v @ 5k w/new everything. I'll ohm-check the ground as is and, if >.5 ohm, clean them up with the dremel, solder the wires into the metal clips, re-check the ohm reading to determine improvement, then check voltage output dynamically. And my wife says I'm no fun.
Hmmm. Disconnected negative cable, put my Micronta digital multimeter to "on", range to 300mV and the omega symbol, and the operation to K/omega symbol, all of which I understand is the setup for measuring resistance by looking at ohms.
I did that and consistently got .1 ohm (same as I got out of measuring from end to end of a paperclip, by the way). It bounces around quite a bit before settling down.
If anybody sees an error with my method, let me know. Otherwise, my grounds look good, and I'm still pumping 13.94v @5k w/new everything, AND upgraded r/r wired directly to the battery's positive terminal with big wires (forget if 16 gauge or 12, at least 16 though, which is way thicker than the wire the stock harness uses to juice the battery).
khyron, Jan 23 2007, 02:54 PMThe acceptable readings are up to your multimeter, mine reads 1/10's of an ohm with just the leads together, so the reading of 2/10's of an ohm is very good, i would say under 1 ohm is acceptable, under 1/2 an ohm is great. I went from the neg post to the aluminum part of the frame that is rough near the fuel tank. If that is reading good, then the brake thing is also good.
BTW my R/R is the -11, the first gen. I also have a fan on top to help it out.
Perfecto. Very helpful. Thx. Mine's outputting 13.94v @ 5k w/new everything. I'll ohm-check the ground as is and, if >.5 ohm, clean them up with the dremel, solder the wires into the metal clips, re-check the ohm reading to determine improvement, then check voltage output dynamically. And my wife says I'm no fun.
Hmmm. Disconnected negative cable, put my Micronta digital multimeter to "on", range to 300mV and the omega symbol, and the operation to K/omega symbol, all of which I understand is the setup for measuring resistance by looking at ohms.
I did that and consistently got .1 ohm (same as I got out of measuring from end to end of a paperclip, by the way). It bounces around quite a bit before settling down.
Does it bounce around when you go end to end on a paperclip? you are looking for about the same kind of thing. If it goes right to 0 ohms, then you might have some more work to do.
I recently had a problem on a mail inserter, it acted like it was loosing its mind, and the ground checked out by ohming it. Another guy i know suggested doubling up on the grounds from module to module, i did this and it is acting like new. This is part of the reason i went to my bike to recreate it, and to a certain extent i did.
I forgot to mention that i also dremeled the top of the battery posts and the cable connector that touches it. There is a tool called a Megger that measures ohms with high current instead of low current that the multimeter is doing. It is used to find bad cables in high voltage applications. I don't know anyone with one though, i last used one in the Navy some years ago. The multimeter is great for 90% percent of its uses though.
If you have soldered all the connectors leading from the battery, and cleaned up all the rest, maybe it is a quirk of your R/R. I have the original one still. The stator connector that plugs the 3 wires into the R/R, i ditched it because the connector was brown from heat, it wasn't the newer white one, it was the older style. I cut the connector off of both sides and used 3 "posilocks" available at walmart. It doesn't get warm anymore. Does the voltage go down as the revs go up? if not by a significant amount and you are happy with your connections, i wouldn't sweat it too much. Maybe i was just lucky.
If anybody sees an error with my method, let me know. Otherwise, my grounds look good, and I'm still pumping 13.94v @5k w/new everything, AND upgraded r/r wired directly to the battery's positive terminal with big wires (forget if 16 gauge or 12, at least 16 though, which is way thicker than the wire the stock harness uses to juice the battery).
khyron, Jan 28 2007, 06:47 AMDoes it bounce around when you go end to end on a paperclip? you are looking for about the same kind of thing. If it goes right to 0 ohms, then you might have some more work to do.
I recently had a problem on a mail inserter, it acted like it was loosing its mind, and the ground checked out by ohming it. Another guy i know suggested doubling up on the grounds from module to module, i did this and it is acting like new. This is part of the reason i went to my bike to recreate it, and to a certain extent i did.
I forgot to mention that i also dremeled the top of the battery posts and the cable connector that touches it. There is a tool called a Megger that measures ohms with high current instead of low current that the multimeter is doing. It is used to find bad cables in high voltage applications. I don't know anyone with one though, i last used one in the Navy some years ago. The multimeter is great for 90% percent of its uses though.
If you have soldered all the connectors leading from the battery, and cleaned up all the rest, maybe it is a quirk of your R/R. I have the original one still. The stator connector that plugs the 3 wires into the R/R, i ditched it because the connector was brown from heat, it wasn't the newer white one, it was the older style. I cut the connector off of both sides and used 3 "posilocks" available at walmart. It doesn't get warm anymore. Does the voltage go down as the revs go up? if not by a significant amount and you are happy with your connections, i wouldn't sweat it too much. Maybe i was just lucky.
Yeah, I can live with it. I assumed that if the ground checked out with the ohmmeter with a .1 (same as a paperclip, and yes, it bounced around on both, in fact, same as when I touch the two leads together, just like yours) that the ground was as good as it could get.
I'll keep an eye on it and if I start losing volts, take a whack at dremeling/soldering/double-grounding everything on the negative side. In the meantime, if I run across a R1 r/r or some variant, I might try that just to see what happens. I'm kind of on a quest with no particular timetable. Plus, I'm just plain curious about how to correct this consistent issue with this particular bike.
khyron, Jan 23 2007, 02:54 PMThe acceptable readings are up to your multimeter, mine reads 1/10's of an ohm with just the leads together, so the reading of 2/10's of an ohm is very good, i would say under 1 ohm is acceptable, under 1/2 an ohm is great. I went from the neg post to the aluminum part of the frame that is rough near the fuel tank. If that is reading good, then the brake thing is also good. BTW my R/R is the -11, the first gen. I also have a fan on top to help it out.
FWIW, my Micronta manual says to check the ground with no power going through the circuit so I removed the negative cable from the battery and checked the ground from the removed terminal to the rough part of the frame. Not sure it makes a difference, but that's what I did in case anyone wanted to know, and know why.
End of thread · 17 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 1 Mar 2007