http://www.redmarque.com/bike/overallview.jpg
Hi all, Just thought I'd see what's your opinon on my frankenviffer. In the process of Jigging the engine. frontends going to be hossack based.
Hossack front end. This is going to be fascinating. I hate front end dive under braking. I presume you have 'Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design - the art and science' by Tony Foale - he covers Hossack. I have a BMW Dakar now & it dives terribly - would love to do a Hossack front for it.
I concur about side radiators spoiling a semi-naked bike. There will be three outstanding things about your bike when it is finished - SSSA, V4 engine & Hossack front end & I would want to accentuate all three. Since Hossack makes the front wheel rise vertically there is plenty of space for the radiator behind the wheel (though there is lots of Hossack stuff up around the steering stem).
Good luck with the conversion and keep us informed with blow-by-blow descriptions like Toro1 has been doing. You too can have more than 30 000 hits on this thread.
How did you guess? Yes I read - or tried to read as best i could, Tony Foales book. i'm trying to emulate his contruction methods as they seem to work. He did some great experiments with rake and trial which is where I got the 15 degrees from. apparently the trail is the most contributing factor on stablity. The nice thing about a hossack frontend is being able to change the geometry more easily.
Tony has also produced FFE software which makes calculating upright and link lengths a doddle.
on another point - I like your bettle sound idea was thinking of calling the bike scarab but your bettle sounds better!
http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/uploads/1169248275/gallery_4545_2572_135070.jpg scarab 13.jpg
I have used the Scarab name too. Triple I made for my Frankenviffer project.
Top of frame coming together - turned bushes hold tubes in place on threaded rod - airbox wil need a little diet to fit. Has anyone tried ram air modification with a VFR?
[image: View Post]The Phantom, on Aug 6 2007, 04:25 PM, said:
Wow. You were serious. :goofy:
Some of the OzVFR crew tried a fairly rudimentary ram-air on a 4th Gen trackbike, they lost a lot of the top end so removed it. I haven't seen any other serious attempts at ram-air. It takes a lot of tuning... but hey, you certainly don't seem to be afraid of a challenge :thumbsup:
Quote
Have you guys seen lazareth's vfr800 at www.lazareth.fr? engine looks very cool - like the 'fake' cam endcaps
Yep it's special. There was some conjecture about it, as the motor looks more V-Max than VFR800...
I thought about using 2 vacuum cleaner hoses, (bit like a Kwak ZXR750) porting it though the existing snorkel hole and flapper valve - as you can see there should be enough room without the standard headstock. surely a bit more clean air can only help! Were the Oz guys using a power commander?
[image: View Post]The Phantom, on Aug 6 2007, 06:38 PM, said:
4th Gen - carbs. I had a hunt for the link but no joy. I did find a mention from zRoYz who did the mod - he said the bike simply wouldn't rev when they got a bit of speed up.
Cheers for that. I think that a power commander 3 is the way to go, athough this looks very interesting? http://www.bgsoflex....megasquirt.html DIY fully programable fuel injection system.
Here's my frankenviffers seat - 2 inches taken out of middle section and 3 from the back. leather is from an old horse saddle.
i'm liking the look of the sargent though might take some more foam off the sides?
Another installment in the development of a frankenviffer.
it's been a while but i've made some progress...
most of the frame tubes are tacked together.
http://www.redmarque.com/bike/frame2.jpg
http://www.redmarque.com/bike/frame3.jpg
designed and cut/tacked the rear sub-frame
http://www.redmarque.com/bike/subframe.jpg
http://www.redmarque.com/bike/subframe2.jpg
Cut tubes and made a jig for the hossack forks
http://www.redmarque.com/bike/fwheel.jpg
Made a wood frame to hold the Sv650 upper fairing in place plus mocked up some 'handle bars to check positioning.
http://www.redmarque.com/bike/hbarpos.jpg
Engineering drawings are at a local engineers.
i'm now waiting on costings for bearing holders, bushes, steering head bearing mounts, more sub-frame bushes and
front /rear shock mountings.
Hoping for some encouragement from you guys on the build! :thumbsup:
If you could move the foot pegs on your 5th gen where would you like them? I've been debating 40mm up from stock? :idea3:
Adjustable pegs does seam the most logical way to go. I've been trying to keep the cost down, so cnc machined is out of the question at the moment. http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/sad.gif i've sourced a pair of hangers and pegs from cbr600 f3 which I could fit to an adjustable back plate. Gear linkage might be an issue. as the connector rod hits the sproket cover!
Yep would really love a ToroCharger! I think I better get the machine running first! :D
Cracks are usually from areas where the welds have cooled hard. 4140 tubing is amazingly resilent to cracking and has a high strength, even hot. I don't know what you're using to connect with (stick, MIG, TIG, brazing) but TIG is the current favored method, plus if you normalize the welds and tubing afterwords, the residual strees, and the tendency to crack should disappear. If in doubt as to the strength, or even the stress under use, gusseting at joints is a good idea.
Just my $.02 worth.
BTW, Before you put pegs on, I would get measured to you so they're comfortable. In Other word, sit on it and have someone mark where to put them when you're comfortable.
Larry
VFRrider
BTW, absolute fan of advanced frame mechanics. My NEXT project will be a semi frameless design, ala GTS1000. Parts are here, time is not.
Those cad plots wrapped around the tubes - do you plot the developed shape, tape it to the tube then grind for accurate fit-up? Nice move.
Is that going to be a pivoted tail section? Two crosswise tubes next to each other. I had a Vincent (Comet) so have experienced an articulated tail section - it is not noticeable at all with the Vincent geometry.
I see the full scale plot of the front end legs.
I am retired & have a cnc machining center in my workshop (Haas VF2). I would be happy to machine some rearsets for you. Send me a plot file and an aegis (spelling?). I run Cimatron 9 CAD/CAM but my pre-release version is very flaky about importing aegis (sp?) hence the request for plot file. I won't charge you - I would feel honoured to be associated with this project (& also the ToroCharger project)
Check my gallery for shots of the upper triple I made - plus some informative disasters.
You have not blanked off the throttle bodies. Do it now.
Those cad plots wrapped around the tubes - do you plot the developed shape, tape it to the tube then grind for accurate fit-up? Nice move.
Is that going to be a pivoted tail section? Two crosswise tubes next to each other. I had a Vincent (Comet) so have experienced an articulated tail section - it is not noticeable at all with the Vincent geometry.
I see the full scale plot of the front end legs.
I am retired & have a cnc machining center in my workshop (Haas VF2). I would be happy to machine some rearsets for you. Send me a plot file and an aegis (spelling?). I run Cimatron 9 CAD/CAM but my pre-release version is very flaky about importing aegis (sp?) hence the request for plot file. I won't charge you - I would feel honoured to be associated with this project (& also the ToroCharger project) Check my gallery for shots of the upper triple I made - plus some informative disasters.
You have not blanked off the throttle bodies. Do it now.
Yes Sir Mr tok tokkie!! Your wish is my command! :thumbsup: will cut some card circles and tape up the thottle bodies asap! :blink:
FANTASTIC offer to CNC! Tok. That would be ace! I really liked your triple clamp a very professional job! Can you deal with autocad dxf files? as I don't think i can write G codes! :wheel: Is the "aegis" the raw code that will control your CNC mill? Would be very happy to pay for materials and shipping! :D and your guaranteed a ride and a place to stay when it's finished!
The tube profiles in paper (shown on forks) are created using a free piece of software called tubemiter which can be found here http://www.ozhpv.org...d/tubemiter.htm Just input the size of the tube and wall thickness of both tubes to join plus the angle and it will print the profile on A4 paper using any printer - makes the job much easier! :D
The two tubes you can see joining the sub-frame to main frame still need to be cut. the middle section will be welded to the mainframe with bushes to hold the sub-section. - Will post some more pics when cut to show the idea, so unfortunatly it's not articulated but will make changing sub-frames easy. could always do a full touring sub-frame with luggage/rack points built in and a nice coffy seat!
If i'm going to design some hangers and pegs for my project bike, it would be really good to make them as replacement for standard 5th Gen ones, then everyone can have lovely rear sets? :idea3:
Aegis should be iges I think. It is an industry standard for exporting & importing between different cad.cam programs. I just want the wireframe drawing (no solids thanks) so I can re-create it in my Cimatron & generate the toolpaths from there. Using other peoples g-code is really not an option I would like to explore.
A dxf file should be fine - I can have it plotted and then re-create it myself.
I will pm my e-mail to you. I take it there is no rush about this thing.
Cracks are usually from areas where the welds have cooled hard. 4140 tubing is amazingly resilent to cracking and has a high strength, even hot. I don't know what you're using to connect with (stick, MIG, TIG, brazing) but TIG is the current favored method, plus if you normalize the welds and tubing afterwords, the residual strees, and the tendency to crack should disappear. If in doubt as to the strength, or even the stress under use, gusseting at joints is a good idea.
Just my $.02 worth.
BTW, Before you put pegs on, I would get measured to you so they're comfortable. In Other word, sit on it and have someone mark where to put them when you're comfortable.
Larry VFRrider
BTW, absolute fan of advanced frame mechanics. My NEXT project will be a semi frameless design, ala GTS1000. Parts are here, time is not.
Cheers Larry,
frame tubes are going to be TIG welded buy a local engineering firm. I wouldn't trust myself - I've only used MIG to tack the tubes will get the engineering guys to normalise tubes after welding. i went to a Inustrial Metal supplier for the Dold Drawn Seamless tubes - I hope they sold me the right stuff?
Do you have any sketches of your project? would be interesting to see? what motor are you thinking of using? :thumbsup:
No sketches, all in my head right this moment, and scattered all over the garage. Motor=GV1400 from Suzuki. 1400 V4. Front end, GTS1000 SSS, rear end, GL1800 SSS, shaft drive, ST1300 tank and seat, 5th gen VFR rear wheels, front and back. Designed as the long distance tourer, no compromise. Even will have luggage, ala Uni cart with Samsonite hard luggage.
To far off right now to take up your thread, we're watching closely.
Next job is to cut air intakes for the ram air system each side. apologies for the state of my garage... i'm not so worried about you seeing the mess after checking out vfrriders cool project! :thumbsup:
Promised a while ago to post pic of the front mudguard plug.
Painted it with 'reface' a special polyester high build filler/sealer which won't react with fibreglass gel coat. please don't ever try normal car paint as the chemical reaction makes a right mess!
Fork jig still needs stops welded on to position tubes correctly.
Note how the VFR engine sits in the frame there's a big gap to the right because of the offset cylinders. left radiator and fan will fit nicely in the space. :D
Uh-oh - where's the ToroCharger drive belt gonna go??? :rolleyes:
Was the projector headlight clearance issue caused by the Hossack set-up (centrally mounted shock)?? Those headlights certainly need some depth. Not only is the assembly quite long (at least 150mm, or 6" for the metrically-challenged) but the lens itself needs some clearance as it will melt anything plastic that's too close. I'm juggling projector lens headlights myself.
One more thing - don't rush it just coz we're so demanding of pictures :salesman: I owe the collective a heap of pics, but I'm having to just go on with things according to plan, although the temptation is there to slap things together just for photos - oh, hi there AB, the pics are on the way!! :rolleyes:
Just going right back to the beginning for a moment... is the front wheel in the pic destined to be there on the final product? If so, may I suggest a Marchesini three-spoke rear wheel to match... (yep, I'm the master of the unlimited budget suggestion http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/smile.gif ). How gorgeous is this bike??? I'd normally take an RC45 over an RC30 any day, but this bike sure makes me stop and think.
Note how the VFR engine sits in the frame there's a big gap to the right because of the offset cylinders. left radiator and fan will fit nicely in the space. :D
Uh-oh - where's the ToroCharger drive belt gonna go??? :rolleyes:
Was the projector headlight clearance issue caused by the Hossack set-up (centrally mounted shock)?? Those headlights certainly need some depth. Not only is the assembly quite long (at least 150mm, or 6" for the metrically-challenged) but the lens itself needs some clearance as it will melt anything plastic that's too close. I'm juggling projector lens headlights myself.
One more thing - don't rush it just coz we're so demanding of pictures :salesman: I owe the collective a heap of pics, but I'm having to just go on with things according to plan, although the temptation is there to slap things together just for photos - oh, hi there AB, the pics are on the way!! :unsure:
ToroCharger installs on the right side of the engine if my memory serves? :rolleyes: so don't worry!
Yep got it in one Projector headlight rear end would get hit buy the hossack fork - headstock supports. a traditional headstock is alot nearer the tank! :blink:
Point taken Phantom, I 'attached' the tubes just to see what it would look like, after a hour of measuring, profile cutting, getting it wrong and remaking - it's nice to see some results :D
Just going right back to the beginning for a moment... is the front wheel in the pic destined to be there on the final product? If so, may I suggest a Marchesini three-spoke rear wheel to match... (yep, I'm the master of the unlimited budget suggestion http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/smile.gif ). How gorgeous is this bike??? I'd normally take an RC45 over an RC30 any day, but this bike sure makes me stop and think.
Not sure why but finding a VFR 6 spoke at a reasonable price is quite hard in the UK :rolleyes: , so yes this is a cbr600f4 front. Uses the same 296mm disks and hollow axle. If the design proves a success mr credit card might take a bashing. :rolleyes: Would be fab to have a lovely set of Marchesini's of any type! :salesman: RC30-45 lovely! Make mine an NR750! :thumbsup:
Interesting. I'm wondering how the frame geometry was decided, including: wheel base, rake, trail, front/rear weight bias, anti-dive proportion. Judging from the front suspension arm angles (close to parallel), it may produce about 5% anti-dive in initial suspension travel. Was that your aim?
Interesting. I'm wondering how the frame geometry was decided, including: wheel base, rake, trail, front/rear weight bias, anti-dive proportion. Judging from the front suspension arm angles (close to parallel), it may produce about 5% anti-dive in initial suspension travel. Was that your aim?
HI Arion, ah the 'magic' numbers! There is no real mystery on how the dimensions came to me. Firstly i wanted the wheel base as short as possible, the VFR engine and many v-twins are very long front to back so I initally drew the front wheel as close to the forward cylinders as possible allowing for flex under heavy braking. The vfr swingarm length was already decided for me by Mr Honda. So that's the overall wheelbase! Rake - don't know if any of you guy's have read Tony Foale's Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design? Anyway in Tony's book he tried a few experiments with rake and trail on a BMW with various rake angles, Standard - 15 Degrees and zero. He noted that the bike was just as stable with 15 or 0 rake but experienced telescopic fork judder. (tele's were pretty naff then) One thing he did notice is that steering was quicker with a steeper rake.. hence the fashion for GP/Race bikes to have steeper rakes than 5-10 years ago.
I guess I wanted to see what an even steeper rake would handle like? especially with vfr power. http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/smile.gif
Trail - the most determining factor on stability and a motorcycles self-centering effect. shorter trail - less effect -but less stable. longer - more effect - more stable.
I've design the trail to be 96mm at the moment as this about the same as a CBR600RR - known for impressive cornering.
Anti-Dive - perchased a copy of Tony's FFE (Funny Front End) Software for this. I didn't want the first ride to be too dangerous so the current geometry is pro-dive bias so that it didn't feel really unfamiliar (the lengths of suspension arms can be altered to change this later)
disclaimer : I am no expert on this ! it's a trial by fire approach!
I am no expert on this ! it's a trial by fire approach!
Your input would be most apreciated! :thumbsup:
That's alright, I'm pretty sure only Norman Hossack himself and a few engineers at BMW can claim to be experts on this type of suspension system. That said, I'll offer my 2� on what I've studied of Hossack suspension systems.
If you examine the image of the BMW K1200S, you'll notice that the front wheel is a long way in front of the engine relative to telescopic fork equipped bikes. That's because both Norman and BMW independently found that these suspension systems work best with a 50:50 front/rear weight bias, just as the best/ideal sports cars do. This is one aspect that is very different from front heavy telescopic fork equipped sports bikes, the VFR800 and CBR600 included.
The positioning and angling of the front suspension arms also indicates that there is significant anti-dive designed into the BMW system, taking advantage of one aspect of Hossack systems.
If you're to use the existing Honda swing arm then you have little choice: shortening the wheelbase will require a higher front weight bias. This will however be even higher than the telescopic fork equipped VFR800, and so even further from the ideal for a Hossack. One option you might consider in getting a shorter wheel base and 50:50 weight distribution is fabricating a new single-sided swing arm from steel tubing, similar to what Ducati has already done on the MH900e and other bikes. Another option would be a conventional double-sided swing arm, but with the associated loss of a VFR identifier.
Whatever you decide, I admire your spirit. Besides, no matter how much analysing and discussing, there is no substitute for prototyping and testing.
Good luck. It would be interesting to see some track test results. The weight loss alone should be significant.
Great Arion! this is just the type of input I've been looking for! hossack suspension is really an unknown quantity.
I agree that to adjust the weight bias using a custom swingarm would be the best solution as I don't really want to increase the wheelbase or rake\trail :blink:
Will just have to see how it works with the VFR swingarm first.
On your advise I am going to re-address the anti-dive situation. Tok Tokkie has suggested 60% anti-dive? I think I will try and calculate how much BMW used by scaling up the pic and entering in FFE software.
On another note.
My copy of the VOSA MSVA Inspection Manual arrived yesterday! :huh: It's the UK Vehicle & Operator Services Agency Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval Inspection Manual. ( yawn ) basically when you build a one-off bike in the UK it has to undergo an engineers report before they will alocate a Identification Number and allow a Registration number to be assigned to it. 29 Chapters of rules and regs about how high the lights are allowed to be, where the number plate can go. if any of the parts will cause injury, brake testing and exhaust noise etc. Great bed time reading!
I can see why most people use an existing frame and modify it saves loads of hassle! :rolleyes:
Arion seemed to thing it may produce about 5% anti-dive in initial suspension travel which got me very worried :unsure:
At the time i hadn't got my laptop with the FFE software installed.. but I picked it up this evening and went over the design again.
Here are the graphs for anti-dive, rake, trail and wheel trajectory. lets say that sag is 25-30 mm and over all suspension movement is 120mm (same as standard VFR)
As you can see the anti-dive after 30mm goes upto 50% in the next 60mm of travel. If the base link is shorted by 5mm anti-dive goes up to 60% in the same distance. phew! :thumbsup: what a relef! :D
On the FFE graph of anti-dive percentage:
1. It changes from pro-dive to anti-dive at about 35mm wheel deflection. Is 0 wheel deflection when forks are fully extended (ie front wheel just about airborne)? If so then 35mm is about normal static pre-load so it will be anti-dive under all normal conditions.
2. What does the curve for normal tele forks look like. I appreciate it is pro-dive all the way but it must be progressively less as the spring loads up I would expect.
On the FFE graph of anti-dive percentage: 1. It changes from pro-dive to anti-dive at about 35mm wheel deflection. Is 0 wheel deflection when forks are fully extended (ie front wheel just about airborne)? If so then 35mm is about normal static pre-load so it will be anti-dive under all normal conditions. 2. What does the curve for normal tele forks look like. I appreciate it is pro-dive all the way but it must be progressively less as the spring loads up I would expect.
Yes that's right Tok. Zero is fork fully extended. So normal pre-load should be at about 25-30mm. I should be able to change this as the front shock top mounting will be adjustable for ride-hight.
What does the curve for normal tele forks look like?... don't know? Though I imagine pretty disgusting in comparision.. :pissed: I'll have to check whether the FFE software can calculate it?
As for progressive - the graph shows a steady increase in anti-dive upto full travel. (If mr foale's maths is correct) also the rising-rate linkage will increase the force on the spring the further it's compressed too.
P.S. if MR Ohlins is reading this, I could really do with a nice pair of shocks to test with? :blink:
Here's the linkage
The red dots show where cross bracing needs to be added from one side to the other.
in each end there are bearing bronze bushes - a system like this requires zero slack in the linkage
http://www.redmarque.com/bike/build/linkage.jpg
3 Red dots to the left show the scissor pivot points
Now you�re probably wondering why i've included this extra linkage -surely I could attach the yoke directly to the forks?
Because the top wishbone pivot is further back than the handlebars - it would need link arms that could change lengths!
Plus if I used a scissor linkage from yoke to fork the ratio of bar movement to wheel turn wouldn't be 1 to 1! weird steering! :comp13:
Also a rake of 15 Degrees also moves the headstock further forward - making a BIG stretch to the bars
Hope i'm making sense? :huh:
[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on Apr 27 2008, 03:20 PM, said:
360lbs + electrics, guages, coolant, etc, (gas = 30lbs/5gal), my guess for final weight with paint ready to ride is 405-410lbs. Very nice, right about what a CBR weighs! :cool:
Cheers Seb! :biggrin:
Spent the afternoon measuring for all the stainless bolts needed to fix everything correctly, 61 so far. Interesting to note that the VFR engine bolts are M10 fine thread
ECU is going to be mounted behind the airbox and stock connectors for speedo/rev counter are redundant as I've bought a Vapor unit! should save a few more grams chopping the loom too.
Unless I get a radiator fabricated to go under the seat this seams to be the only option for now - i'd really like a wedge shaped one from a late GSXR would be slightly narrower and taper towards the base.
http://www.amotorcyclechicago.com/photogallery/photo00015988/2007_suzuki_gsxr_radiator_2.jpg the 916 one was only $30
Tail fairings are really a matter of taste - i'm into the minimlistic look of the new fireblade and like integrated indicators like a gsxr1000.
the NSR tail is very cool especally the fin air intakes very ferrari! :fing02:
[image: View Post]thereisnospoon, on Jun 13 2008, 02:01 PM, said:
Wow, this has been an amazing read! I'm curious what your background is redmarque? Obviously you know what you are doing. And... of course, will there be a kit?
Thanks! :fing02: I take it from your username you aren't the 'one' then?
Firstly i'm really no engineer! I started life with one of those father's who gave me technical lego and was a member of the Vintage Motorcycle Club!
I left school at 16 and went to the local college to do a foundation in art and design - went onto Central Saint Martins College of Art & Design in London to study honors Degree in Product design. Somehow after finishing (spending more and more time with computers) I've ended up as a IT Manager for an investment bank!
I had a lot of 'help' on this project but have tried to do as much as I can myself - I guess you could say I had a fair idea what to do, but only after reading Tony Foale's book and working with my now good friend from essex wheels and engineering.
As for a kit? who know's? I'm pretty sure that it 'should' handle well, i've even thought about adding a steering damper! :goofy:
I've modified the standard oil cooler take-offs to except earl's hoses
http://www.redmarque.com/bike/mods/earlcooler.jpg
Sanded down and painted the throttle body side plates Satin Black, will change out the standard bolts to stainless (shiny)
http://www.redmarque.com/bike/mods/tbody.jpg
Didn't realy like the huge standard caliper so i'm modifying CBR600RR rear caliper to fit above the swingarm - should keep the dirt off and look trick.
I'd like to put the hose though the swingarm aswell
What you propose for the rear brake is novel. Like the front end is.
What I notice about your workshop is more how small the space you have created this in rather than how cluttered it is.
The other side... :biggrin:
http://www.redmarque.com/bike/trace.jpg
Exhaust system is coming along, i've modifed the front down pipes to miss the radiator and cooler. Early cbr600 pipes have that same size header tubes
Stock pegs are a temporary solution until I finish the bespoke rearset design, also good to take measurements from for the rearset relationship to engine and swingarm mountings.
After much adjustment, fabrication and head scratching (standing and looking at the bike) :biggrin:
I've finally got around to the rearset design! way way back last year I decided that the stock 5th Gen footpeg hangers look disgusting...
The structural elements of standard 5th gen hangers are very good - especially using the swingarm pivot as a mounting point.
But as you know there isn't any adjustment! I've tried various designs trying to allow for some forward and aft movement - none of which look any good!
Here's attempt number 14 (left side rearset) It has height adjustment only - 3 positions at 36 degree increments.
Brake lever in this pic is shown lower than final design so that it can be seen against the hanger
Heal plate design is to be finalised afterward as 3mm plate aluminium can be easily fashioned by hand.
Very cool project. Good luck! Looking forward to seeing it on the road.
Quick question, where did you source the silicone radiator hoses? The 3rd gen hoses have been discontinued by Honda and I've been looking for a substitute. Currently I have something cobbled together with 4th gen hoses. But silicone hoses maybe a good solution.
[image: View Post]vfracer750, on Jul 24 2008, 02:39 PM, said:
Quick question, where did you source the silicone radiator hoses? The 3rd gen hoses have been discontinued by Honda and I've been looking for a substitute. Currently I have something cobbled together with 4th gen hoses. But silicone hoses maybe a good solution.
Thanks for the encouragement!
The hoses i've used are all made from straight sections and 90 degree beds from Ebay.
1" from thermostat to rad, 7/8 for the pump to cylinder heads and 1/2 for smaller bore stuff all joined with aluminium joiners and stainless hose clips.
If you need to get a straight pipe to go around a curve. I fabricated a hose cover from sheet ali - i'll find a pic tonight to explain better.
hope this helps! :fing02:
I've mocked up the design in 10mm MDF board.
The 10 holes will be threaded for 6mm grub screws to allow the swingarm bolt to be recessed. Brake cylinder mount will be 6mm thick Ali.
I've sourced rear Yamaha R1 footpegs which will need to have a slot cut though the middle for the return spring.
Lever pivots will be bushed with bearing bronze to prevent wear.
[image: View Post]MtnRider, on Aug 11 2008, 09:14 AM, said:
Care to make an extra set :biggrin:
Yep totally agree 5th Gen pegs are grim! :fing02:
Hopefully I will offer a group buy if anyone's interested after the first prototype set is made - i'll need to measure up on the 5th Gen rear master brake cylinder as this ones a CBR600RR one - also the banjos on the 5th Gen rear brake are hardlined to the Combined Braking System, so positioning maybe an issue.
Frame and swingarm are going to be satin black - undecided on paint or powder coat? tank,bodywork and wheels in gloss black (always did like vintage bike look)
Was thinking of sandblasting and lacquering the engine once it's been for a test run, should make a nice contrast.
I've been labouring on the loom for some weeks now too :mad: , it's been completely stripped and shortened. Standard connectors are being replaced with waterproof ones like ducati use. :biggrin:
[image: View Post]Vee-Ef-Ar, on Aug 11 2008, 03:53 AM, said:
I'm lovin the progress mate.
I bet she thought she was going outside for a run.
You might have already said, but what color will we see that frame in? Or am I being too nosey now? lol
Wow just saw this AMAZING. Just bought a 5th gen engine the other day and was getting ready to start my own project but Hell if you maybe planning on selling frames I'll wait and just do the build up on my engine so it's ready for your frame.
I want one!!
[image: View Post]Rabbid, on Aug 14 2008, 10:04 PM, said:
Wow just saw this AMAZING. Just bought a 5th gen engine the other day and was getting ready to start my own project but Hell if you maybe planning on selling frames I'll wait and just do the build up on my engine so it's ready for your frame.
I want one!!
Thanks for the complement! :fing02:
Unfortunately I�m planning on a 1000cc V-twin version if this front-end is successful. Possibly in aluminum too. If you're still mad and would like to build your own PM me and we can discuss offline :fing02:
[image: View Post]Vee-Ef-Ar, on Jan 24 2009, 06:37 AM, said:
Finished yet??
:goofy:
To be honest progress on the hossackviffer has been very slow! :blush:
Life gets in the way of a good project!
http://www.redmarque.com/bike/hossackvfr8s.jpg
I've had to cut and move the rear suspension mounting 25 mm left and re-weld!
Remake the frame - engine spacers
Move and weld on coil mounts
The steering scissor linkage has also been remade to allow for full suspension movement
Notched out the tubes in the forks to allow for greater turn on the steering lock
re-designed the rising rate front suspension linkage using a rear suspension dog-bone.
Replace front shock spring
and much more!
BTW I've put the rearsets on hold until everything else is working!
Hopefully I've got the time to get her running soon, as I've been made redundant last week! :(
Sorry to hear of your job loss http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/sad.gif
Going by the evidence presented, you certainly could be self employed as a custom builder, although under the current climate there may not be enough paying customers to make that viable.
BTW a giant spider appears to be mating with your V4? http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/smile.gif
It looks fantastic. Chin up, make the income priority 1, but keep at it on this, it's good for you :laugh:
[image: View Post]The Phantom, on Jan 24 2009, 03:55 PM, said:
Sorry to hear of your job loss http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/sad.gif
Going by the evidence presented, you certainly could be self employed as a custom builder, although under the current climate there may not be enough paying customers to make that viable.
BTW a giant spider appears to be mating with your V4? http://www.vfrdiscus...tyle_emoticons/default/smile.gif
It looks fantastic. Chin up, make the income priority 1, but keep at it on this, it's good for you :goofy:
Thanks Phantom!
I'm not really worried about work yet as i've already got some part-time contract IT work lined up! :laugh:
i've sand blasted the frame after recent mods them primed in black to stop it rusting. (also was fed-up at looking at browning steel!) I didn't think the financal outlay of powercoating was worth it yet. Tabs to hold the battery carrier, brake lines and bodywork mounts are still to be added. Once it passes the UK Single Vehicle Assessment and has a title the extras can be done.
Yeah bummer bout work, but good you have something else in store.
I love the black look, even if it's primer, gotta look after that precious metal work {bloody rust}
Little bit at a time Red... like Phantom says: Looks fantastic
I am so impressed with what you are doing, cant wait until its finished and your running aroiund on it, good luck on the job front so you can keep going.
As an IT manager working for an investment bank, I know how you feel, as being made redundant is the damokles sword that hangs over all of us in this economy.
Glad you've got something else lined up. Yeah, I'm a selfish bestige - I crave more progress on your build :fing02: :biggrin: :fing02:
It also amases me how you manage to find the time to do all this having the family and all. It takes me 3 month just to change my oil and fill tires with air...
[image: View Post]Rice, on Jan 25 2009, 05:17 PM, said:
Red,
As an IT manager working for an investment bank, I know how you feel, as being made redundant is the damokles sword that hangs over all of us in this economy.
Glad you've got something else lined up. Yeah, I'm a selfish bestige - I crave more progress on your build :blush: :biggrin: :fing02:
It also amases me how you manage to find the time to do all this having the family and all. It takes me 3 month just to change my oil and fill tires with air...
Best of luck and keep'em updates comin!
I was an IT Manager of a small investment bank too - they joined it with 3 other businesses, hence redundancy :fing02:
Ah! and I used to be a family man until the ex-wife did the dirty. Now I have my kids 9 and 4 year old every other weekend. So more garage time evenings and weekends.
Here's a close-up of the "bridge" (It reminds me of one) frontend.
Note the new scissor linkage
Not sure what size tubing you used for the vertical part of the front end, but it looks like my idea might apply for you.
I found that the black plastic plug that goes in the top of the steering stem on the stock bike would fit as frame plugs on my VF750F frame. Might also plug the holes in your girder?
[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on Jan 25 2009, 09:37 PM, said:
Not sure what size tubing you used for the vertical part of the front end, but it looks like my idea might apply for you.
I found that the black plastic plug that goes in the top of the steering stem on the stock bike would fit as frame plugs on my VF750F frame. Might also plug the holes in your girder?
Hi Seb, that's a good idea - I thought I might turn up some black pvc on my 50's lathe to make frame plugs.
Off to look at your Vf750f post for other ideas now! :blush:
Amazing engineering - Paul Crowe at The Kneesliderloves this sort of stuff (he ran an item on Toro's blown 5th Gen), can I send a link to him? Or do you want to wait until you're a bit closer to finished.
[image: View Post]The Phantom, on Jan 26 2009, 11:11 AM, said:
Thanks for the Firth Of Forth close-up :ph34r:
Amazing engineering - Paul Crowe at The Kneesliderloves this sort of stuff (he ran an item on Toro's blown 5th Gen), can I send a link to him? Or do you want to wait until you're a bit closer to finished.
I had exchange of emails with Paul when I started the project, as I send him tips of strange bikes from around the internet.
I'd rather wait until the bike can be ridden please! (as it would be very embarrassing if after all this it didn't work!)
The front shock has a guestimated spring fitted and is over damped, but will be good enough test ride on. Larry Web owner of www.pdq1.co.uk PDQ Motorcycle Developments has recommended that I have a custom nitron shocks made once complete. (Larry worked with Norman Hossack on road based conversions a few years back)
PDQ is also featured in the book Motorcycle Road & Racing Chassis: A Modern Review of the Best Independents
Lots of lovely pics of frames if you like that sort of thing. :blink: Linky Amazon
PS. I have a confession.... It was me who sent Paul a link to Toro's bike. :blush:
Exhaust is an old CBR600F4 ART end can with modified link pipe. hanger's still to be made, but will be OK to test the engine.
I like the MotoGP positioning leaves a nice empty area between the rear wheel and seat unit.
Next step is to re-mount the radiator and oil cooler. Now that the linkage for the suspension is in place the radiator can be mounted about an inch higher than before. So many little details to finish! :fing02:
OK some more progress! Radiator and oil cooler are on.
Re-routed the upper radiator pipe with an 90 elbow now that the rad is in a higher position. I'm pleased because it looked like scraping the floor if cornering hard before! Re-used the alloy pipe guide on the return pipe to keep it out of the way.
PAIR system is going to stay until after VOSA SVA - they test emittions :fing02: [image: Posted Image]
Fan has been moved 6mm closer to the radiator and trimed the edges of the motor body so to get everything as close as possible. [image: Posted Image]
Oil cooler view from right side. Oil Cooler is from a old CBR1000 nice to have 4row instead of the stock 2. [image: Posted Image]
Earl's oil hose and connectors. Earl's do steel bosses which I had welded to the stock engine take-offs [image: Posted Image]
Plugged the battery in and connected the loom together during the week - turned the key - nothing! now in the process of diagnosing what's wrong! - always thought the electrics were going to be the worst bit! [image: Posted Image]
[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on Feb 20 2009, 12:09 AM, said:
Nice progress!!
This is going to be a cool bike, can't wait to see it done! (neither can you, I bet!)
I'm sure you've thought of this already, but - do you have the bank angle sensor connected and placed properly?
Cheers Seb,
Ah yes, the bank sensor - the one we all hope never has to operate! I've moved it to under the fuel tank just behind the battery - havn't fixed it to anything yet, but it was upright last time a looked :fing02: I think the issue could be to do with the clutch diode circuits from the neutral light switch and clutch lever, so trying there first.
Set the scene: Dr FrankenViffer's Lair it's dark and gloomy; a slight chill is in the air. Dusk has fallen Dust hangs in the light shed by florescent tubes. Energy is building as the 12Ah battery charges for 4 hours.
Voltage now reads 12.9V
Dr FrankenViffer patiently attaches the terminals using a 5mm allen key wrench. One last check of his subjects electrical connections.. all fluids have been added in the correct quantities.
He apprehensively turns the key to the ON position�. 3 lights appear, one green.. neutral, first red, oil pressure then the last, FI
Now the moment he has been waiting for�
Gripping the throttle tube gently he presses the starter button�
Vrroooommm! The throaty roar of a V4 IT LIVES!!!!!!!!
Been watching this awesome project for some time. I gotta ask about the skins though. Is she going to be naked or will the VFR body work fit with mods done?
Also, hows the progress on the custom helmet(avatar) too? :biggrin:
Thanks guys! :cool: it's a great feeling to finally hear the engine start and run! I'm wasn�t entirely sure on the motors history, only that it had done about 20k before being plunged at 30mph into the side door of a car� btw it was a true red VFR as one of the fairing stays had a small piece of plastic still attached!
Motor sounds good though. I�ll post a clip of it running once I�ve sorted a few issues!
Major Issues!
Oil take-off on right side of the engine is leaking badly!! � order and replace o-ring
Oil cooler union joints - replace o-rings
If still leaking � make new unions using old oil coolers mounts.
Thought I�d make a list of other things to do before road test!
Re-wrap wiring loom
Secure loom to frame / resolve issues where wiring is close to engine
Wire in radiator fan
Wire in PAIR solenoid
Find / fit bolts to secure foot pegs to engine
Thread lock all bolts suspension linkage front and rear
Cut and measure earl�s brake lines and clutch line
Route hoses and attach hose ends
Measure and make caliper spacers
Make bracket / mount engine stop tilt switch
Weld on battery box rear mounts
Weld on ignition switch mount
Order /fit coolant system jubilee clips for air bleed to radiator
As to bodywork I�d thought that a half fairing a bit like a Suzuki SV650 size would suit well? Maybe with some Britten influence? Fork legs definitely need fairing in. Quite keen on KTM�s RC8 styling with angular shapes and sharpish corners � should make it easier to make the fiberglass moulds?
Tail section will have to be minimal and wrap around the underside down to the rear shock - Rossi M1 style. I�m thinking of cowling in the radiator as a separate piece to the top fairing too.
New oil cooler o-rings are coming in Tuesday plus P-clips and spiral wrap for the loom.
So sound clip soon!
Ok Guys here's some clips!
First time the engine's run longer than 20 secs. Notice the smoking exhaust wrap! it's never been hot before...
Quick rev of the motor.
redmarque, on Mar 6 2009, 01:05 PM, said: Quick rev of the motor.
And people think I have *music* on my ipod. I really could listen to that all day.
Thanks for taking on this amazing project and showing Honda how to surpass the K1200's as the ultimate sport tourer!
I was in shock when it started! Now I just think I must be mad to undertake something like this, one day in the near future I'll have to ride this thing... gulp!... what have i done??
Featuring fully revised trellis frame with new engine mount design new Hossack suspension geometry and fork design revised/calculated front shock location using CBR954 model (Tony Foale has updated his Funny Front End software to include shock calcs) Existing engine, swingarm, wheels, brakes, cooling system and electrics will be transfered to MKII (code named NADA)
4130/4140 should be gas welded (oxy acetylene) or TIG'ed. 4130/4140 is a fairly porous steel and has been known to crack if you braze it. The brass will get in the pores of the steel and expands at a greater rate than the steel.
Personally, I like brazing. My one golden rule when doing any welding (regardless of the method) is to treat the pieces just like you're getting ready to paint them. i.e., make sure they are practically antiseptic.
The more I mess with MIG, the less I like it. You just get too much distortion with the sudden application of molten metal. Gas welding or brazing heats things up nice and evenly.
Given any thought to silver solder like they use to do on the Rickman frames?
Tony Foale seems to be a fairly accessible guy. When I bought his software and didn't get the unlock codes immediately, he called me himself and asked if there was a problem.
Looking good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One last thing as far as a little "trick" for making parts by hand. I do AutoCad all day. I don't have access to a CNC machine. What I do quite often is draw the piece I want to make, and then print to Avery 5353 paper. 5353 is 8�" x 11" sticky back paper (like labels). Stick your drawing on whatever you trying to whittle down or drill and have at it. You can get the Avery label paper at any Office Max or Office Depot.
Thanks Pete, I hadn't planned on using 4130 - just going to stick with 1.5mm CDS mild tube reasoning being that it will bend before it fractures.
Also will be hopefully Tig welding myself this time but using a fixture/jig that will allow almost all the welding to be done without taking it out! Had loads of distortion and miscalulation on my part last time - hopefully the new engine mounts will allow any distortion issues!
Yes i've been using the poor man's CNC too! - but use 3M spray mount to hold A4 paper onto the metal once printed from CAD
MIG - I call it "messy" mig! not a patch on Tig for structural welds - fine for car bodies etc though
Tony's a nice guy - from my experience if your going to send him an email regarding chassis,suspension or anything else make sure you've done your homework first!
But the Frankenviffer is stating to seriously look like a Daytona 675.
Yes - a new direction... the 5th Gen lump maybe fairly big and heavy by modern standards, but I'd like to see handle in a smaller package like.. a daytona 675! If a suitable Eaton supercharger appears on Ebay then i'l be incorperating that too - with no standard airbox and tank to deal with placing can be thought out better. Bodywork is the other reason - making bodywork is a very lengthy process, this way standard fairings should fit with modification.
1. In frame design and construction you must try and minimise and allow for distortion in the design.
2. Make sure that everything critical i.e. that the steering axis and wheel alignment are spot on and perpendicular to each other.
3. Creating a fixture/jig that will allow you to get into weld tight spots without needing to be a contortionist.
4. That the shock absorbers used are from a similar application to which you are going to use them. (Taking into account there travel and damping characteristics)
The CBR 600 F4i shock I used for the front was a direct acting one therefore over damped for a linkage system.
5. Source and measure everything component before starting construction - if in doubt re-measure several times.
6. When selecting materials for structural parts use the correct grade and condition (heat treatment) for the application. (John Bradley�s books go into great detail on this)
7. Leaving things till later only causes more problems for instance the steering head tube and bearings I used from a Kawasaki GT550 had a specific length limiting the Hossack geometry and forcing the handle bar location to be higher that I would have liked. This also changed the anti-dive effect. When brakes were applied I couldn�t discern any dive which even for my limited experience felt very strange. MKII will have 30mm of dive before anti-dive kicks in.
8. Packaging everything around the engine and location of heat sensitive components can be a headache too. I now have great respect for the big manufacturers in getting everything to fit somewhere!
Things which I liked about the bike were how light it felt compared to my stock 98 and was very stable even with 15 Degrees rake. MK II will be 18 Degrees rake, purely to remove the need to have the drag links back to the handlebars.
But I thought the point of this whole exercise was to give the VFR the Ultimate alternate front end.
I thought the challenge was to build up something special around a mighty VFR motor, not just slap something on an I2/3/4/5/6 whatever motor.
I know a custom bike builder in the area, that told me the following.
"Vtwins are easy to make choppers out of their a dime a dozen, Inline fours are next since once you do one the next one is the same, but the most challenging bike to customize is a V4. Do one of them right and you have something really special"
Things which I liked about the bike were how light it felt compared to my stock 98 and was very stable even with 15 Degrees rake. MK II will be 18 Degrees rake, purely to remove the need to have the drag links back to the handlebars.
My first post here. Hope there's no protocol about intro's that I'm missing.
The drag link question. I made a prototype experimental thing which required a large change in angle of the steering head with bumps and a rearward location of a fixed axis handlebar, so came up with a drag link system I called the Middleton Link. It effectively eliminates bump steer in a Hossack where the handlebar is not close to coaxial with the steering axis. Using it would mean you can use whatever rake angle you like and any handlebar position within a very large range, even a different handlebar axis angle. The only stipulation is that both axes should be arranged to be on the vertical centre plane of the bike when the steering is straight ahead. If you're interested I can send you a picture of how it works, but I guess that I can't send a PM having only one post. An email address would do.
I plan building a Hossack myself for my track only special (currently has conventional cheap tele forks) and will use the Middleton Link here too if I get around to it.
wow that is a lot of work to that bike you do great work. iwould love to see it when it is all done. this is my 1984 vf100f that i have done. and my 1986 vfr700 hope you like them as much as i like yours
Impressive... you have gone quite a bit beyond the point where most of us would in customizing your ride... my question is are you saving any weight???
Can you tell me more about your exhaust for the front two cylinders? Looks like they've been modified for radiator room. Is that a stock radiator there in front? Does it cool well? Thanks!! I'm wanting to turn mine into a fighter of sorts but hate the side radiators.
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