Vf1000r Motor In Vf1000f Frame?

Had a bit of help on this one from a BBS member so I didn`t need to worry about the steering neck moving during construction. EddiesV65 from the BBS suggested adding a section from the junk VF1000R frame to the VF1000F frame, then cutting away the F frame on the inside to clear the motor, then box in the F frame.

Just need to trim up the rail above the one in these pics as the front of the rear head on the left side just touches. I`ll probably transfer over all the modifications from my VF1000F to this frame/motor combination, eventually...here`s a copy of the results:

So since I have too much time to think after tendon surgery, and I have several R motors and a couple 1000F frames, I decided to finally get to the bottom of whether a R motor will fit in a F frame. I`ve heard it can be done but the valve covers won`t come off without removing the engine, it`s a direct swap, etc...I`ve probably propagated some of these things myself without really seeing it. I do know that Tim Cameron has done it with an Australian R motor to a 750 frame(The Gimp), however, he used the original R motor with the narrower heads/camshafts and installed it in a VF750F frame with some modification. The early 1984 R motor-(not available in the US) was similar to the VF1000F motor dimension-wise, but the R was developed beyond that to incorporate wider cams, line-bored cams, and subsequent wider heads. Just want to be clear that this is a US 1985-1986 motor, and has different dimensions to the earlier non-US version. So I took a 1984 US VF1000F frame and a 1985 US VF1000R motor and here are the pics...

It fits...kind of...

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Top view:

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Left front mount, note the R motor wants an additional motor mount on the head, the right front is similar, also some space between the existing F front mount and the R motor, needs a spacer:


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Right front mount is similar to the left:


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This is the right lower mount at the bottom/rear of the frame/motor, snug together, looks good:


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This is the right upper rear head mount, the stock R spacer will fit here, but there is a problem...


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The left upper rear head is already jammed up against the frame rail because the F frame is angled straight back to the motor mount...

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...and the R frame has been changed to curve out around the head, then back in sharply to the motor mount..
Like this:

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After welding in the curve piece from the junk R frame to the outside of the F frame . I welded an additional bead on top of the first so I could grind away. Also drew a line where the F frame now needs to be cut away.


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Cut away the F frame on the inside, then welded in the inner section. Cleaned it up a bit. Now to see if the R motor fits, add in the front head mounts, figure spacing on the motor mounts, chain line, if the valve covers come off...


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Motor in frame.


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Excellent! Nice work. :fing02:

Very nice! When we gonna do mine? LOL Once the bike on the lift is done The 1000 F/R is next.

Very nice work. I didn't realize there was a change in the early years of 1000R.

[image: View Post]Chev, on Dec 31 2008, 06:59 AM, said:

Very nice work. I didn't realize there was a change in the early years of 1000R.
The change was from the VF1000F to the VF1000R frames. The R engine is wider to accomodate the grear driven cams. Oh, and more horsepower!

Wow, I'm surprised at the fit. My '85 R motor is sitting in my 84' F frame with no cutting/welding. The left upper rear head is close to the frame but not touching. Hmmm?
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Will need a different spacer here if I remember correctly.
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Lower left front is perfect, just need a leg to catch the upper.(if needed)
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All buttoned up.
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You can flip the water passages around to catch the F frame coolant plumbing.

Interesting. My motor was hitting the frame exactly where it looks like yours is Kel, the upper left rear head at the rubber half-moon of the valve cover gasket. I could get the spacer at the right upper rear head in, but it wasn`t happy and the front lower mounts sit as in the pics. After the frame mod, the left lower front engine mount sits up against the left frame mount and it appears the only spacer will be on the right front lower mount, just like the stock F setup. We`ll see. The plan is to trim the frame rail above the one I just did to make sure there is no pressure twisting the motor in the frame, torque the rear upper and lower engine mounts since they are the same in the F and R and seem to fit without stress, check the hanger plates and spacers, check the front lower mounts and make a spacer for the right front lower mount, and finally cut the front head mounts from the junk R frame and weld them to the F frame.

Course now I`ve got to test the other good F frame on a R motor to see if it`s the same...

Interesting indeed. Perhaps some manufacturing differences. My rt rear upper mount has the spacer in and all tightened down. This leaves the lt rear head close but not touching the frame. A playing card would barely make it. Certainly making the extra room by cutting/welding has made life easier for you. I guess if you weld on some upper front mounts, you basically have an R frame, why not just put your F stuff on one of your R's and be done with it! :biggrin: I'm running the F thermostat so flipping the water passages was needed. It should make it easier to use the 750 mid and lower rads since I'll have no place for an upper.

Kel, check your spacer on the left hanger plate, the left should be 23mm and the right is 31mm.

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Saving the spare R frame for maybe the 750 sleeper, or maybe use the other F frame for that, dunno yet. I tossed back and forth between the R frame or the F. Got several R motors collected over the years so I might as well try this. Also will use the water passages through the frame for the VF1000F, whereas the 750 rads lend themselves more to the R frame and no water passages. Course it doesn`t really matter as I`m sure they would be easy to cut and shut.

Gotta fix the upper frame rail, valve cover doesn`t want to come off without a fight.

Your black frame with the tank and swinger on it remind me of the old Honda racers...watcha gonna build...?

Good eye on the spacer Tom. Clearly the wrong one in there. By water passages, I was referring to the ones between the heads. not the one in the frame member. The R passages exit right towards the R thermostat housing while the F's head left. Since I'll be using the F's thermostat(on the left side) in it's stock location, I merely popped out the R's and flipped them around so they head left.
Here they are in the stock R config. They're opposite now.
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This bike will be a fighter. I can't have 2 sport bikes, that would be cheating on my R! The pic shows a VFR400 rear rim but I'm in the process of getting my RC30 rim on. The VFR400 rim will become the front wheel. 18"ers front and back! Hawk GT single side swingarm front fork with a custom girder triple setup. It will probably handle like crap but will be fun around town. Playing with the trail will be interesting with a front eccentric to play with! :blink:

That ought to be interesting. Complex?

I have the water pipes/thermostat housing/etc saved from this F frame so I`ll use those. Good to know I can flip the R`s if the need arises.

Got around to modifying the upper rails above the rear head so the rear valve cover will come off with the motor in the frame. Was not going to happen without doing this. The R frame rails are much thinner in this area so I used that as a model.


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Nice work. This would be a great time to add some functional cross bracing to reinforce the chassis!

A bit at a time. Looking at it to see what might work best. Need to make sure the motor is exactly where it needs to be first... there are quite a few detail differences between the frames and motors that you would think would be the same, but aren`t...

Left and right front head mounts cut from the junk R frame and welded to the F frame. Also added the front lower mount from the R frame to the F so I don`t need to use a spacer like the F does. Also a bit more beef. Did this after mounting up the swingarm, wheel and chain to make sure as best I can that the motor is straight in the frame.

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Added a little extra metal. Thinking of triangular gussets between the main frame rails and the top thinned ones. Almost ready for the powdercoater, maybe I`m just making more work for myself...

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Oh, I don't know, if you add those extra couple ounces you might end up over the weight limit for that bike... careful... LOL

Do it!!

Thanks Seb, wouldn`t want to make this thing heavy or anything.... :blush:

So, to stave off the inevitable Monday coming....I tried my other F frame on the R motor. Same thing, rear head hits the frame on the half moon of the valve cover gasket, which throws off all the other mounts so they look like they need spacers.

This is a loose fit without anything tightened down, I`m sure if I tightened the front mounts, the frame could be coerced, but I think that isn`t quite right, seems it would be bending into place. I think I`m right on with the frame mods, ugly welds and all!

So, I doubt either is bent as both frames lined up exactly the same. Either that, or I have 2 F frames bent exactly the same.....

Of course, I waited until I`ve almost completed this thing before double checking the other frame...seems to have worked out though.

Hi !
I have had my VF1000FE since new from 1985 (European model) and now the odometer shows just over 100 000 km`s. (Not a dream customer for bikedealers !) This week I got a 6000 km ! driven FF engine from Germany. I checked the cams and they looked very good so I think this really is so little used engine. I�m going to put the Dave Dodge oil mod from the oil gallery in this engine (hope they still sell that kit, haven`t got answer from them yet). In the current engine I have a self made oil mod from the oil gallery.
Now to the point, the chain driven FF engine has also the line bored heads and so it is wider from the camheads than the FE engine. I have not tried to put the new engine in the frame so after reading this discussion I am little bit confused, do I really need to make the curve to the frame near the rear left camcover ? Is this needed only to make possible to take the cover off for adjusting the valves ?
Another guestion is about the lower radiator connections, it looks like they are pretty close to the wider covers, did you need to cut them off to clear the covers ?
How about the thermostat housing, it seems to be in very tight place with the wider covers, did you need to make modifications there ?

Vesa
Finland

[image: View Post]Vesa, on Oct 24 2009, 04:06 AM, said:

Hi !
I have had my VF1000FE since new from 1985 (European model) and now the odometer shows just over 100 000 km`s. (Not a dream customer for bikedealers !) This week I got a 6000 km ! driven FF engine from Germany. I checked the cams and they looked very good so I think this really is so little used engine. I�m going to put the Dave Dodge oil mod from the oil gallery in this engine (hope they still sell that kit, haven`t got answer from them yet). In the current engine I have a self made oil mod from the oil gallery.
Now to the point, the chain driven FF engine has also the line bored heads and so it is wider from the camheads than the FE engine. I have not tried to put the new engine in the frame so after reading this discussion I am little bit confused, do I really need to make the curve to the frame near the rear left camcover ? Is this needed only to make possible to take the cover off for adjusting the valves ?
Another guestion is about the lower radiator connections, it looks like they are pretty close to the wider covers, did you need to cut them off to clear the covers ?
How about the thermostat housing, it seems to be in very tight place with the wider covers, did you need to make modifications there ?

Vesa
Finland


You don't have to cut and reweld the frame. It's a tight fit but very do-able. You will lose the ability to remove the rear cover but do a valve adjustment before install and you're good for a while. Thermostat shouldn't be an issue.

When I did the frame, my intention was to make it as functional as I could. Adding the curve to the frame rail allowed the motor to be placed in the frame like it was meant to be there. I wasn`t happy with how the frame seemed to need to be "tweaked" to get the motor in with the stock F setup. The upper frame rails were modified to allow the rear valve cover to be removed with the motor in the frame. I was there already, so why not make it so it works...

There are no problems with either the coolant outlets on the frame or the thermostat. I didn`t touch those.

I think some are missing a small detail here, he is not putting an R engine into a F frame, he wants to put a FF engine into a FE frame. We did not get the FF or FG here. This is a chain driven cam engine, but with line bored cams. Sort of like a hybrid between the gear driven and chain driven engines.

[image: View Post]bear22099, on Oct 25 2009, 11:25 AM, said:

I think some are missing a small detail here, he is not putting an R engine into a F frame, he wants to put a FF engine into a FE frame. We did not get the FF or FG here. This is a chain driven cam engine, but with line bored cams. Sort of like a hybrid between the gear driven and chain driven engines.


In that case (just speculating here), he might not have nearly the issues. The R engine's gear drive makes the heads quite a bit bigger/wider. Since the US market never got the FF model I do not know for sure, but I'm guessing that the heads are not as wide as the R so it should be a lot easier. I'd say it should be possible.

[image: View Post]bear22099, on Oct 25 2009, 09:25 AM, said:

I think some are missing a small detail here, he is not putting an R engine into a F frame, he wants to put a FF engine into a FE frame. We did not get the FF or FG here. This is a chain driven cam engine, but with line bored cams. Sort of like a hybrid between the gear driven and chain driven engines.


I got that. He did say that the line bored FF heads are wider than the non line bored FE heads. Dunno about the FF, but the camshafts themselves on the line bored R motors are wider than the non line bored F and R motors and have the wider heads.

Nice to see this forum is alive and active. Thank you for your response, I�ll take later some photos of my FF heads compared to FE`s so you can see the difference. I got the old motor off today and opened the cam heads to see how the cams are doing. I have had my self made oil mod from the oil gallery to the original connection behind the rear cylinder. After couple of years and about 10 000 km`s the cams looked great with nothing visible wear on them (new followers and grided cams). So I guess my mod has worked. Anyway I was thinking to add a Dave Dodge drill and tap system from the oil gallery straight to the heads. The problem is that I can not get any answer to my emails from Dave Dodge, I have tried 2 different email addresses which I have found for them but zero answers. Do you know if he still is in business or is there any dealers where I could get that oil mod. I have read so many articles which praise DD system so I would like to put one in my "new" engine. I know it is possible to make that kind of system from forinstance Aeroquipe fittings and hoses but if I could get a DD system I would save my efforts and buy it.

[image: View Post]motorhead1977, on 31 December 2008 - 07:53 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Chev, on Dec 31 2008, 06:59 AM, said:

Very nice work. I didn't realize there was a change in the early years of 1000R.
The change was from the VF1000F to the VF1000R frames. The R engine is wider to accomodate the grear driven cams. Oh, and more horsepower!

But the early R model engine was not wider (and not available in the US). Only after they added wider cams and line bored cam bearings they change to accomodate the resulting wider engine, which coincided with the release of the R model in the US.

at least that is what i think...

[image: View Post]cornercarver, on 28 October 2009 - 03:42 PM, said:

[image: View Post]motorhead1977, on 31 December 2008 - 07:53 AM, said:

[image: View Post]Chev, on Dec 31 2008, 06:59 AM, said:

Very nice work. I didn't realize there was a change in the early years of 1000R.
The change was from the VF1000F to the VF1000R frames. The R engine is wider to accomodate the grear driven cams. Oh, and more horsepower!

But the early R model engine was not wider (and not available in the US). Only after they added wider cams and line bored cam bearings they change to accomodate the resulting wider engine, which coincided with the release of the R model in the US.

at least that is what i think...



The R came out in 84 in Europe and was narrower than the 85. They don't generally use years to talk about bikes, so the RE engine was narrower than the RF and RG. The RE was still gear driven, but not line bored.

[image: View Post]bear22099, on 28 October 2009 - 04:06 PM, said:

The R came out in 84 in Europe and was narrower than the 85. They don't generally use years to talk about bikes, so the RE engine was narrower than the RF and RG. The RE was still gear driven, but not line bored.


Correct, also in Australia, which is how a guy named Tim Cameron managed to shoehorn an R motor into his 750F, affectionately named "The Gimp":

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[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on 28 October 2009 - 09:25 PM, said:

[image: View Post]bear22099, on 28 October 2009 - 04:06 PM, said:

The R came out in 84 in Europe and was narrower than the 85. They don't generally use years to talk about bikes, so the RE engine was narrower than the RF and RG. The RE was still gear driven, but not line bored.


Correct, also in Australia, which is how a guy named Tim Cameron managed to shoehorn an R motor into his 750F, affectionately named "The Gimp":

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They got the nice wheels as well. I always wondered why we did not get those wheels on the interceptors.

[image: View Post]bear22099, on 29 October 2009 - 07:21 AM, said:

They got the nice wheels as well. I always wondered why we did not get those wheels on the interceptors.


Nevermind the apparently semi-floating front brake rotors!

Hehe I have 2 sets of those wheels, one set is gonna go on ebay real soon to help fund my cbr600 wheels :)

Anyway back onto thread, its looking really good, keep up the goodwork :)

[image: View Post]VF1000RS, on 25 October 2009 - 09:35 AM, said:

When I did the frame, my intention was to make it as functional as I could. Adding the curve to the frame rail allowed the motor to be placed in the frame like it was meant to be there. I wasn`t happy with how the frame seemed to need to be "tweaked" to get the motor in with the stock F setup. The upper frame rails were modified to allow the rear valve cover to be removed with the motor in the frame. I was there already, so why not make it so it works...

There are no problems with either the coolant outlets on the frame or the thermostat. I didn`t touch those.


So it's been a year and a half, did you get it to powdercoat yet??

[image: View Post]vfrcapn, on 04 March 2011 - 10:29 PM, said:

[image: View Post]VF1000RS, on 25 October 2009 - 09:35 AM, said:

When I did the frame, my intention was to make it as functional as I could. Adding the curve to the frame rail allowed the motor to be placed in the frame like it was meant to be there. I wasn`t happy with how the frame seemed to need to be "tweaked" to get the motor in with the stock F setup. The upper frame rails were modified to allow the rear valve cover to be removed with the motor in the frame. I was there already, so why not make it so it works...

There are no problems with either the coolant outlets on the frame or the thermostat. I didn`t touch those.


So it's been a year and a half, did you get it to powdercoat yet??



Haha! Yes, it`s been sitting wrapped up in the basement for a good year.