So I went for a ride with some buddies Friday, and we had the chance to cruise some tight back roads in Vermont. A friend of mine has a 06 ZZR600 he just bought, and took his first spill. He came into a really sharp blind corner and met an SUV crowding the center line. He panicked, hit the rear brake, and the bike stood up. This caused him to cross the other side of the road and get caught in the dirt, which made him drop it. Thankfully there were no other cars coming at the time. He did a comendable job of laying it down for a newbie, but it brought on a conversation about what to do in these situations.
I told him when he corners to focus on the exit, not the entrance of the corner which he said helped him quite a bit. But what do you do when the end of the corner is not in view? Wasn't sure what to tell him, other than slow down and trust the bike to hold on if you have to push the bars harder. It's always worked for me, but just wondering if you guys have any advice for him on the topic.
One thing to rember, is a bike only needs a 36 inch hole . Right hand blind corners I go in tight to the inside , just for such reason. on left hand blind go on the outside and cut in.
I was pushing a corner a few weeks back on a downhill blind corner, right as I'm coming through an F35 was pulling out of the inside of the apex. This is why learning to ride covered and being able to proficiently brake in corners is essential to long term health.
Here are a couple of articles from Sport Rider about decreasing radius turns which are typically blind but the jist of the article is picking the right line.
Did he get his licence free with a pack of cornflakes? :blink:
Or is the required training/skills to demonstrate at your exam a cakewalk?
If you cannot see the exit, you slow down before diving in.
You look ahead of you to look for clues.
Sharp turns -at least here- typicaly have more "paint", be it red/white warning/guiding roadside signs or a single uninterupted centre line.
when in doubt, slow down.
Hugging centre line is usually a bad idea, unless you can see right through the turn.
Anything could be on the other side of a blind corner, from a nice open road to the next corner, to a stranded dump truck blocking your entire lane and in your friend's case and as I also had experienced many times through the years on the mountain twisties here in northern CA, an errant vehicle going across the center line.
There is always a risk in going around blind corners. Best defense against catastrophe when going around one is proper postioning in your the lane (I try to be close to the inside of the turn) and to SLOW DOWN enough to be able to use any emergency handling skills you might have to employ to stop or get around an obstruction you might find on the other side, but you also do not want to end up being so terrified of blind corners that you all together avoid riding on roads that have the, or end up almost parking the bike on th side of the road to check what's around it.
Public roads are not like an Isle of Man TT course and you should remember that you are sharing the roads with all sorts of vehicles and drivers that go much slower (or faster) or "get in your way".
JMOs
[image: View Post]troyce, on May 17 2009, 04:57 PM, said:
He came into a really sharp blind corner and met an SUV crowding the center line. He panicked, hit the rear brake,
....
but just wondering if you guys have any advice for him on the topic.
I think the most important advise for him is to analyse what you just described as to what happened and come to the conclusion that you always have to expect oncoming traffic, not just crowding the center line, but over the center line in your lane. Than you do not have to panic or hit the brakes, just steer a bit more to your side.
Also stay out wide as long as possible so you see oncoming trafic and you escape route a bit sooner, And maybe even more important, they can see you sooner.
Besides the slow down that everyone else has mentioned. Don't just focus on the exit of the corner, look where you want to go. If you can't see the exit continue scanning up the road as far as is necessary for the speed you are traveling. And since this is on a public road, never ride faster than road layout allows you to see.
Thanks for all the responses - definitely some good advice, particularly the sport rider articles. We were riding at or below the speed limit, so I don't believe excess speed was a factor. In his defense, it was a VERY tight corner, and he has only had his license a couple of weeks. I've been riding for about 5 years now, and I can still get spooked by this type of corner if I'm riding aggressively. I'm just glad noone got hurt......
Go in slowish, you can always gas it on the way out of the turn if appropriate.
This way you avoid scaring yourself on turn entry, or mid turn. :biggrin:
[image: View Post]VFR4Lee, on May 17 2009, 08:48 PM, said:
Go in slowish, you can always gas it on the way out of the turn if appropriate.
This way you avoid scaring yourself on turn entry, or mid turn. :biggrin:
Slow in fast out is correct. You never know if there's a some gravel (or a green Plymouth Voyager being driven by a lady without a driver's license who doesn't speak much English) in your lane.
But one of the biggest things is NOT to cut your apex too early, not only does this help you keep the right lines, it increases your line of sight throughout the turn.
[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on May 18 2009, 03:21 PM, said:
Slow in fast out is correct. You never know if there's a some gravel (or a green Plymouth Voyager being driven by a lady without a driver's license who doesn't speak much English) in your lane.
Personal experience? :blink:
Another simple thing is to ALWAYS leave something in reserve on public roads. Those who choose to ride at 100% of their ability or comfort will nearly always crash whenever something unexpected happens, like debris, or a green minivan in your lane.
[image: View Post]troyce, on May 17 2009, 10:57 AM, said:
A friend of mine has a 06 ZZR600.....
He panicked, hit the rear brake, and the bike stood up.
The bigger concern to me is that his reaction was to reach for the back brake. More than 90% of braking should be from the front brake on the street. I actually never use my rear unless I'm in gravel. Linked VFR brakes a great for me, but even with other bikes I never touched the back.
All of this is even more true with a ZZR600, where you don't need the back at all (excluding gravel, sand, etc). A cruiser with a small front wheel and long wheel base would still get most stopping power from the front, but using front and back together is more advisable.
Lots of good advice here, but one thing I have learned to watch out for, that hasn't been brought up... in these types of turns, the center of the lane often contains loose crud. Pebbles, cinders, gravel, whatever. Not every road is Deal's Gap, and in places like Vermont, you see a lot more of this crud.
I try to pick the wheel track that gives me the best view around the corner, and get lined up in that wheel track before I have to lean the bike. And I never dive into a blind turn so fast that I can't handle it if someone crosses the centerline and forces me onto the crud in the middle of my lane.
Get your mate to read "The PACE", and tell him to stay off tight twisites until he has more miles under his belt.
I'm not so sure The Pace is a good place to start since it assumes you somewhat know what you're doing in the turns. The Pace should be part of a wider approach.
Spend $10-$30 on a book or two.
The Pace is included as part of the book Sport Riding Techniques ( I haven't read this book)
But I did like:
Total Control - Lee Parks
Twist of the Wrist II - Keith Code (no need to start with book 1 since it's somewhat racing focused)
Get your mate to read "The PACE", and tell him to stay off tight twisites until he has more miles under his belt.
I'm not so sure The Pace is a good place to start since it assumes you somewhat know what you're doing in the turns. The Pace should be part of a wider approach.
Spend $10-$30 on a book or two.
The Pace is included as part of the book Sport Riding Techniques ( I haven't read this book)
But I did like:
Total Control - Lee Parks
Twist of the Wrist II - Keith Code (no need to start with book 1 since it's somewhat racing focused)
Good advice, too. I once rode (Yam FZ 750) with a group of sport bikers in the western Carolina mountains, and we had a guy, fairly new to riding, on a Harley Springer :blink: doing his damndest to not only keep up with the pack, but try to outride everyone there. I was thinking, damn, this guy is passing me going into turns that he shouldn't be surviving. He made a number of them, but ultimately crashed and burned, ruining his trip after a brief hospital stay, a classic case of running out of talent, especially on that machine. The bottom line being you have to tuck your ego inside of your better judgement when riding on highly technical roads such as those presented at the Tmac. It's all well and good to want to keep up with the PACE -- or try to set it in this guy's case -- but if you're outriding your ability there's no room for error, which WILL happen.
[image: View Post]motorhead1977, on May 25 2009, 09:43 AM, said:
[image: View Post]BOBINOTTAWA, on May 25 2009, 09:07 AM, said:
This is not my intention to be condescending. However, this 'ditty' may apply:
'A superior pilot is one that uses his superior judgment to keep himself out of situations requiring his superior skill'
:+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: AMEN I say to you, Again, AMEN TO THAT BOB!
To that I say, if you're not getting better, you're getting worse. Superior skills come through practice. If you think you can avoid an accident by knowing what your traction and lean angle limits are, you're f*cked unless you already know where they are. :happy:
Where you learn those skills is another matter, but if you're going to apply them on the street, you'll eventually need to simulate using them on the street.
Bottom line is practice makes perfect, the unfortunate subject of the original post was in over his head.
Then there was the pilot (from the deep south) that crashed and survived. When asked what happened, he said "We-e-l-l-l, I just ran out of altitude,air speed, and experience all at the the same time......Monk
[image: View Post]SEBSPEED, on May 25 2009, 10:00 AM, said:
Bottom line is practice makes perfect, the unfortunate subject of the original post was in over his head.
Actually, my Judo Sensei said it best: "PERFECT practice makes perfect" Anything else just reinforces bad habits. Once one gains the experience, it is superior judgment that prevents having to use that ability, which is ultimately the best course. Sort of like a parachute or insurance -- they are there in the event they are needed, but one should try to avoid needing them.
That said, I have learned that I am far from perfect so I ride accordingly and always look to improve no matter what I am doing. Would I truly love to be near perfect, yes, but one always needs to recognize their limitations, which unfortunately it seems the newbie may not have done. Just glad he is not permanently injured for it. We either learn or we repeat the same mistake over and over, circumstances permitting.
[image: View Post]Monk, on May 25 2009, 08:48 AM, said:
Then there was the pilot (from the deep south) that crashed and survived. When asked what happened, he said "We-e-l-l-l, I just ran out of altitude,air speed, and experience all at the the same time......Monk
:laugh: Awesome.
The Pace is good practice once you know how to ride. It's good for beginners and veterans as it is not about speed but about control. If you read the link you will see that "initiates" are taken seriously by the entire group and thus the speeds are reduced to let them get the feel of things. Also, it even mentions elizilla's point about where you should be when cornering so your tires are in the cleanest parts of the road and the rest of you is out of harm's way when that SUV comes rolling through your lane over the center line because they always have right of way :rolleyes:. Frankly, I think it's the best damn thing I have read when it comes to riding twisties. Steady through the straights and utter control through the turns. Position and throttle is everything and the challenge is doing it in such a way that not even the cagers can ruin the experience. It's not a race but a ride.
As for the unfortunate accident, he walks away to learn something new. It doesn't matter what type of bike he was on as anything with 2 wheels will stand up on you if you brake into a turn. What's more is he simply panicked due to a rather large vehicle in his lane. Again, anyone new to bikes could have made the same mistake. What I like most about this kid is he took the time to ask for advice from his more experience peers in an obvious attempt to prevent a repeat. The only thing I can suggest at this point is as his peers, you might want to control your speeds so that he can follow your lead without feeling like he is over his head. After all, that's what The Pace is all about. Peer pressure at its finest doing the motorcycle community something good for a change. :cool:
One book I re-read every year is Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough. I use the info from that book almost every time I ride. It is far and above the best book about street skills out there. Tell your friend to buy it and read it!
[image: View Post]elizilla, on May 24 2009, 10:20 PM, said:
I try to pick the wheel track that gives me the best view around the corner, and get lined up in that wheel track before I have to lean the bike. And I never dive into a blind turn so fast that I can't handle it if someone crosses the centerline and forces me onto the crud in the middle of my lane.
Good points fur sure,
In street riding I have about an 18" path that I try to keep the bike in...this gives me room to move over in case someone is over the center lane...I try to keep anything like a care in my lane in my peripheral vision and focus on where I need to be...it's about this time in my helmet I'm saying out loud "turn the bike, trust it, keep looking..." and focus on pushing on the bar to make the bike turn harder and looking where I need to be...sometimes it's loud.
One time I had two friends slide across the road in front of me and I was practically yelling "look, look, look" in my helmet so I wouldn't target fixate on them...the bike turned just fine I didn't hit the front brake in a turn that tightened its line (route 20 about 5 miles before you hit the Ohio River) dramatically in the last 20% of a blind 250degree turn...the damn thing almost loops onto itself...
Now I tend to ride a lot of roads where I can't see more than 50 to 100 ft ahead...I always look at the vanishing point and if it gets farther away I know the turn is opening up and I'm past the apex. Otherwise it's either constant or tightening up...
Tell him to cut off his rear brake pedal to start with.
Almost all new riders, and even many experienced ones, have terrible lines. You should use your lane positioning to maximize your visibility and maneuverability.
On a blind right turn for instance, enter the corner as far left as possible, hugging the yellow line, and start the turn as late as possible. This gives you maximum visibility through the corner and keeps your options for adjusting your line open. If you dive into the entrance of the turn on the inside, you can't see what is in the road ahead and have little room to change your line to the inside.
Same thing on a blind left (or any left turn really), stay to the outside so you can see through the corner, and not leave your head hanging over the yellow lines. I wish I saved my KillBoy pic from a couple years ago that clearly demonstrates this.
im pleased to hear the mentioned rider is alive to ride another day ,i hope he takes advanced training the quickest way to get experience! i am an institute of advanced motorist member for motor cyclists in the uk .our training manual is the riding manual for the british police.in simple terms ride in a position in your lane to give you the maximum forward observation,concerning corners bends etc your speed should match your ability to stop in the distance you can see.hope this info helps some one.rob
Out of curiosity, is this guy new to riding or new to street riding? It's probably not like this for everyone, but the guys that I know that learned on dirt have the hardest time with the whole front brake/back brake thing. I know I did, and I've talked to a few others in the same situation. I hardly ever used the front brake on my dirt bike, since I never really wanted to stop, just slow down and slide it through the curves. Also didn't want to go flying over the handle bars after grabbing a bunch of front brake going down a dirt hill. When I started riding on the street, that was my habit and it took years to readjust. We tend to fall back to familiar habits during high stress situations and maybe that's what he did?
At least I never tried to drag my foot through the corners when I started riding on the street. :laugh: :rolleyes:
Glad your friend is okay and that he wants to learn how to do this stuff right...
[image: View Post]mojopolo, on May 17 2009, 08:08 AM, said:
Definitely slow down in a blind corner .. if you can't see the exit stay off the gas. As the saying goes, slow in, fast out.
What he said, plus I just read a long article about these types of corners and the experience writer/rider said the best way to not blow a corner is to not enter the corner any faster than you should. He put a lot of emphasis on controlling your entrance speed first. When panic hits the rider tends to look at what they think they might run into and that works against the rider because you tend to go where you look. Slow in, fast out. Always ride within a safe margin and this can still be fast riding, I like to think of it not so much as fast but smooth and effecient.
Always weigh the risks against the rewards: the rewards of taking a corner super fast and impressing your friends in no way matches the risks of losing life or limb or injuring another person.
I tend to ride a fair bit faster than most people I travel with, my son hangs with me on his R-6 but I still try to ride within a safety margin. In other words, when I get through a corner and know that I could have done it faster, then I know I did it just about right. There's no reason to ride on the margin unless you're on a closed track with slide out areas.
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