Making A Strange Sound

I bought my 2007 RWB new about a month ago and have since put about 2800 miles on it. At around mile 600 it started making a strange thwaking or tapping sound from the motor at idle, with clutch engaged or in neutral. I brought it into the dealer but of course it went silent. After that I thought maybe it was the flapper or pair so I removed them one at a time and neither made any change. Well now the bike is at the dealer because the noise is making me nervous. The mechanic seems to have pinpointed that it is coming from the front valve cover. Any idea what it could be? Its fairly rythmic and pretty much happens all the time when the bike is warm. Cant tell if it increases with the RPM since either it stops or the motor drowns it out.

Most likely the front cam chain tensioner. They usually last 12-15K miles (I am on my 4th), yours probably just went early. If the tech didn't know this right off the bat, call and tell them that the front CCT is incredibly common, and to start there.

I think someone on this board had a nightmare story from the dealer misdiagnosing a bad CCT and ended up with the bike in the shop for months with the engine out of time, and having to buy a new bike.

[image: View Post]jeremy556, on Jul 31 2009, 09:17 AM, said:

Most likely the front cam chain tensioner. They usually last 12-15K miles (I am on my 4th), yours probably just went early. If the tech didn't know this right off the bat, call and tell them that the front CCT is incredibly common, and to start there.

I think someone on this board had a nightmare story from the dealer misdiagnosing a bad CCT and ended up with the bike in the shop for months with the engine out of time, and having to buy a new bike.


Will do, would a bad CCT cause a fairly loud sound? this not a slight ticking or anything. It is fairly loud...I'm having trouble describing it exactly.

Yep. This would be the only common cause of a fairly loud sound in these engines.

[image: View Post]pjm204, on Jul 31 2009, 10:25 AM, said:

[image: View Post]jeremy556, on Jul 31 2009, 09:17 AM, said:

Most likely the front cam chain tensioner. They usually last 12-15K miles (I am on my 4th), yours probably just went early. If the tech didn't know this right off the bat, call and tell them that the front CCT is incredibly common, and to start there.

I think someone on this board had a nightmare story from the dealer misdiagnosing a bad CCT and ended up with the bike in the shop for months with the engine out of time, and having to buy a new bike.


Will do, would a bad CCT cause a fairly loud sound? this not a slight ticking or anything. It is fairly loud...I'm having trouble describing it exactly.
Yea. It is the timing chain with slack in it banging around and can be pretty loud. Usually sounds like a bunch of BBs rattling around.

I dont understand why the cam chain temsioners are such a big issue.my bike has 35,000 miles and its totally silent.

[image: View Post]ericlee, on Jul 31 2009, 10:00 AM, said:

I dont understand why the cam chain temsioners are such a big issue.my bike has 35,000 miles and its totally silent.

You know you just jinxed yourself, don't you? :blink:

hi....
i have some very recent and painful experience with this.....
i had a tapping/noice in the front, no change in performance...
the sound would go silent when i leaned the bike in neutral over hard to the left and then return when straight up again...
at any rate, certainly the CCT and i took it in and directed the dealer to start w/ the CCT.
a few short hours later, they called and said, 'the tech says the cct is fine, so he's starting to disassemble the front top end..."
things went to hell from there. (BTW, as i understand it you cannot tell if the CCT is fine, they must first be pumped up under oil pressure and it's not possible to tell if they are shot just by checking them...)
i told them to stop any further work...
my bill at this point was over $600...
i went in and asked WTF and put it back together, which they said was going to be another $600....
incredibly, they wanted to take it all the way down to the main crank, and 'check in there'... i asked if there was any metel in the oil, and of course there was not.
i was nearing the 16k mark and since the thing was basically all opened up by this point, i had them do the vtec valve job. of course, everything was in spec. but it's done.
I had them change the CCT and put it back together.
of course, they said that there was a 'piece of carbon stuck in the vtec valve that had been making all the racket', they 'flicked it out and that fixed the problem'. of course, i had no 'piece of carbon' to look at or show and tell...
so many many frustrating weeks later, and by now, nearly $1800 (after they adjusted it in my favor, tech said, (i've got nearly 40 hours in here, and i'm losing money already...)

so, i really believe i got screwed. maybe it was a Piece of Carbon, but if they had done what i asked, changed the CCT first, at least we could have isolated a cheaper part first.

at any rate, be careful... put your instructions in writing or record them and don't let them screw you....

i don't think all dealers are this way, and maybe it was an honest mistake on the part of mine, but i got hosed either way...

i think part of the problem is that VFR's so rarely break, that the only experience techs get on them is at "honda school'... so they are pretty much guessing the rest of the time. no disrespect to any tech, i appreciate what you guys do...

best of luck....

and FWIW, i would change my own CCT now,,, there's some pretty good pics on this and the other forum that show you how to do it without a bunch of disassembly and only takes about 1-2 hours...tops.

[image: View Post]ericlee, on Jul 31 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

I dont understand why the cam chain temsioners are such a big issue.my bike has 35,000 miles and its totally silent.

Count yourself lucky. All Honda CCTs are notorious.

[image: View Post]Someguy, on Jul 31 2009, 11:29 AM, said:

hi....
i have some very recent and painful experience with this.....
Sorry you got screwed. I would not pay for that. I would tell them to put the old CCT back in (10 minute job) and see if their mysterious carbon was the cause of the noise. I doubt they did the valve check correctly either.

I can't even fathom how a piece of carbon on a valve could possibly make any sort of noise. Even if it was a noise originating anywhere in the cam or valves, the frequency of the cam chain noise is much higher than the cams are turning.

[image: View Post]pjm204, on Jul 31 2009, 09:10 AM, said:

I bought my 2007 RWB new about a month ago and have since put about 2800 miles on it. At around mile 600 it started making a strange thwaking or tapping sound from the motor at idle, with clutch engaged or in neutral. I brought it into the dealer but of course it went silent. After that I thought maybe it was the flapper or pair so I removed them one at a time and neither made any change. Well now the bike is at the dealer because the noise is making me nervous. The mechanic seems to have pinpointed that it is coming from the front valve cover. Any idea what it could be? Its fairly rythmic and pretty much happens all the time when the bike is warm. Cant tell if it increases with the RPM since either it stops or the motor drowns it out.

Very Hard to believe that the CTT would go out in only 2800 miles guys! :blink:
I guess it could have a faulty one? :huh:
Record the sound next time, that makes it much easier to diagnose. :blush:

Alright so I went in today to check and see what the deal was, of course they had called me while I was riding there but I didn't notice. Basically since I had removed the pair system(thought this might be the culprit) they cannot do anything until I put it back in. Honda said it is probably camshaft end float and not to worry. I don't want to have to deal with this sound, its loud and annoying. Unfortunately there isn't much I can do right now because I am away from home and will only be here for another 10 days. I get the bike back Monday or Tuesday and so I will put the pair system back in(I lost a reed so I need to buy/find one) and then I will take it into a different shop when I get home. I think its pretty annoying they wont do anything without the pair system in there since it made the noise without it.

I've got a 1,000 mile ride coming up, if it is a bad front cam chain tensioner, will I damage the bike at all riding it as is?

Removing the PAIR system can only eliminate sources of noises - it is disabling 2 valves and a solenoid. Idiots.

It should be ok to keep riding with a bad CCT as long as it doesn't allow enough slack to skip time or chew up the engine cases.

Can you make an audio recording of the sound?

[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on Jul 31 2009, 11:44 AM, said:

Very Hard to believe that the CTT would go out in only 2800 miles guys! :blink:
I guess it could have a faulty one? :huh:
Record the sound next time, that makes it much easier to diagnose. :blush:
Unlikely sure, but they are known to be crap. It wouldn't surprise me to see one just a little bit crappier.

I can't think of any other common noises from the front right valve cover.

After doing some research on here it sounds like this is a pretty common problem and that everyone states the CCT doesn't lose tension, it just makes noise. So I dont think I have to worry about the chain doing damage. I tried to get a recording one but the motor kind of drowned it out. I will try again when I get it back. I am going to take the bike back in in a couple weeks after my ride.

[image: View Post]pjm204, on Jul 31 2009, 01:55 PM, said:

After doing some research on here it sounds like this is a pretty common problem and that everyone states the CCT doesn't lose tension, it just makes noise. So I dont think I have to worry about the chain doing damage. I tried to get a recording one but the motor kind of drowned it out. I will try again when I get it back. I am going to take the bike back in in a couple weeks after my ride.
If the motor drowns it out, it ain't that bad :laugh:

I listened to a post from someone with CCT noises and mine sounded very similar. If it does turn out to be the CCT, I will keep having them replace it under warranty.

[image: View Post]pjm204, on Jul 31 2009, 12:55 PM, said:

After doing some research on here it sounds like this is a pretty common problem and that everyone states the CCT doesn't lose tension, it just makes noise. So I dont think I have to worry about the chain doing damage. I tried to get a recording one but the motor kind of drowned it out. I will try again when I get it back. I am going to take the bike back in in a couple weeks after my ride.


Exactly, its easy to assume the chain is smacking around buts its not, it the tensioners itself.

I've already had a couple try the car oil 1ow40 , like an Exxon superflow and cured their issue, why people want to spend the time replacing multiple tentioners, which will only reocurr again I dont understand.

I've been noise free closing in on an addtional 30,000 mile with no cct noise, since simply switching to car 10w40. I wasted my time and money replacing a cct, they only fix temporily at best.

I have 63,000 on the bike the rear cct has that amount of miles, but I wasted my time replacing the front cct at 30,000 mile, cause at 35,000 it was making noise again. Exxon superflow 10w40

You can check your cct to see if the spring is broken by removing the 10mm cap bolt on the end and inserting a thin screwdriver (about 2mm wide) to engage the slot in the rotating plunger arm.
If you can feel spring tension when you try to rotate it one way (cant remember which) and are unable to rotate it significantly the other way, the spring is OK and you dont need to worry about it failing.
If you cant feel any spring tension then the spring is broken, and the cct needs replacing ASAP.
Having said this, it is still possible for a cct with a good spring to cause rattles, but it wont cause major damage.
When you rotate it in the opposite direction to the spring tension, you are applying MORE tension to the cct, so dont over do it, it should stop the rattles though.

When you rotate it in the opposite direction to the spring tension, you are applying MORE tension to the cct, so dont over do it, it should stop the rattles though.
))))))))))))


When I started dealing with the vfr cct noise issues, that was a suggestion, but it doent work, tension is not the problem. I've even gone as far as loosening the tentioner bolts 2mm allowing the spring tension to seperate from the block taking up the slack and then tighten the screws, this greately increases the tension on the chain, but doent fix cause its not chain rattle. Its all about the lubricating the front tensioner, It doesnt recieve oil flow well being vertical position on top of the motor. The rear cct's virtually never fail or make noise, they are totally submerged in oil.

Many diesil 15w40 and motorcycle oils, arent making it into the front tensioner to keep it quiet. For some reaon the 10w40 car oils do, the 20w50 car oils dont.


When, I first got the vfr, i used rotella 5w40 and amsoil 15w40 in the first 20,000 mile. I moved and had a big house payment, so I tried to save money. Used the diesils and even mobil 1 20w50 mc oil and valoline mc oils. I started having front cct chatter I replaced the front cct but only cured for a couple thousand mile. I never thought oil would have anything to do with it, I played with tensioner pressure and even replacement which was a waste of time and money..

I know the 20w50 car oils have the lubrication issue too, in making it to the front tentioner on a relaible basis, the light weight oils with a little moly see to work very very well.

Is anyone running any light weight oils and having cct noise?

well I dropped off the bike today to see if they can get rid of the noise. I also asked them to check out the shifting. It is very clunky. Hopefully I'll get my bike back and it will be perfect. oh and hopefully they wont try and charge me.

[image: View Post]pjm204, on Jul 31 2009, 10:55 AM, said:

After doing some research on here it sounds like this is a pretty common problem and that everyone states the CCT doesn't lose tension, it just makes noise. So I dont think I have to worry about the chain doing damage. I tried to get a recording one but the motor kind of drowned it out. I will try again when I get it back. I am going to take the bike back in in a couple weeks after my ride.

I had a CCT lose tension (the spring actually snapped :blink: ) on a 94 Honda Magna also a V4, and that made so much noise I thought a connecting rod had broken. I pulled over immediately and called a tow truck for fear of doing some real damage. After diagnosing the problem I replaced the CCT myself, which at least on that bike was quite simple.

Note that it is physically impossible to "tighten" the CCT without removing it and taking it apart. You can turn it clockwise and wind the CCT away from the chain, but as soon as you let it go it will resume it's normal position.

mine is starting to rattle a bit sometimes but then she is getting up to 30,000 miles now. Won't bother changing yet though!

[image: View Post]spud786, on Aug 1 2009, 03:18 AM, said:

Exactly, its easy to assume the chain is smacking around buts its not, it the tensioners itself.

I've already had a couple try the car oil 1ow40 , like an Exxon superflow and cured their issue, why people want to spend the time replacing multiple tentioners, which will only reocurr again I dont understand.

I've been noise free closing in on an addtional 30,000 mile with no cct noise, since simply switching to car 10w40. I wasted my time and money replacing a cct, they only fix temporily at best.

I have 63,000 on the bike the rear cct has that amount of miles, but I wasted my time replacing the front cct at 30,000 mile, cause at 35,000 it was making noise again. Exxon superflow 10w40

+10,000,000

my cct was making MAJOR noise and was figuring on a big bill. so i tried going from 15w50 to 10w40, and what do you know... silence!!!

i woulda never believed it if i didn't do it.

:)

Mine has nearly 44K miles and never had CCT issues, although I may have gotten the first symptoms a few weeks ago (maybe not). I had the said sewing machine sound at idle without loss of performance or smoothness, however it came and went rather strangely: it wouldn't make this noise after a cold start, only a few minutes into my commute, then eventually went away (always). This lasted for a few days then I took the bike out for a long 400 mile ride mostly on highways, I haven't heard the noise again. This was 2 weeks ago. Could have been something else than CCT though.

I've been running Motul mineral in 10W40 for years.

Regards,
Bruckner

Nevermind.
Gear driven cams here.
Why did they quit that. Oh yeah, cost. :dry:

I picked her up today...they couldn't hear the noise(of course it goes silent when i bring it in). Its still making it but now its documented that I brought it in.....

I was very tempted by the leftover CBR1000RR's for 6900....found em for 6700 online as well. As for the shifting, they said it shifts fine, I disagree. I am going to buy the shift kit and see if it improves.

[image: View Post]pjm204, on Oct 22 2009, 08:55 PM, said:

I picked her up today...they couldn't hear the noise(of course it goes silent when i bring it in). Its still making it but now its documented that I brought it in.....

I was very tempted by the leftover CBR1000RR's for 6900....found em for 6700 online as well. As for the shifting, they said it shifts fine, I disagree. I am going to buy the shift kit and see if it improves.
Try switching oil like spud suggested and see if it fixes the noise.

What was wrong with the shifting? Usually tough shifting is caused by a too tight chain, check the chain slack.

[image: View Post]jeremy556, on Oct 22 2009, 08:10 PM, said:

[image: View Post]pjm204, on Oct 22 2009, 08:55 PM, said:

I picked her up today...they couldn't hear the noise(of course it goes silent when i bring it in). Its still making it but now its documented that I brought it in.....

I was very tempted by the leftover CBR1000RR's for 6900....found em for 6700 online as well. As for the shifting, they said it shifts fine, I disagree. I am going to buy the shift kit and see if it improves.
Try switching oil like spud suggested and see if it fixes the noise.

What was wrong with the shifting? Usually tough shifting is caused by a too tight chain, check the chain slack.


I'm pretty sure my chain has enough slack, I will loosen it up a bit and see if it smooths out

[image: View Post]pjm204, on Oct 22 2009, 08:46 PM, said:

[image: View Post]jeremy556, on Oct 22 2009, 08:10 PM, said:

[image: View Post]pjm204, on Oct 22 2009, 08:55 PM, said:

I picked her up today...they couldn't hear the noise(of course it goes silent when i bring it in). Its still making it but now its documented that I brought it in.....

I was very tempted by the leftover CBR1000RR's for 6900....found em for 6700 online as well. As for the shifting, they said it shifts fine, I disagree. I am going to buy the shift kit and see if it improves.
Try switching oil like spud suggested and see if it fixes the noise.

What was wrong with the shifting? Usually tough shifting is caused by a too tight chain, check the chain slack.


I'm pretty sure my chain has enough slack, I will loosen it up a bit and see if it smooths out
I pull in the clutch, let off the throttle and then shift up which produces an audible and felt clunk that I think is more extreme than on any other bike I've ridden. However maybe my 150lbs is too much for my current level of slack...I'll loosen the chain and check it out. I bled the clutch and its the same...at least now I have new fluid in there.

If someone in NJ, PA, NY that is knowledgeable on the CCT sound would listen to my bike I'd really appreciate it. Anyone want to meet, ride, and listen to my bike?

[image: View Post]dirtbag, on Oct 19 2009, 07:20 PM, said:

[image: View Post]spud786, on Aug 1 2009, 03:18 AM, said:

Exactly, its easy to assume the chain is smacking around buts its not, it the tensioners itself.

I've already had a couple try the car oil 1ow40 , like an Exxon superflow and cured their issue, why people want to spend the time replacing multiple tentioners, which will only reocurr again I dont understand.

I've been noise free closing in on an addtional 30,000 mile with no cct noise, since simply switching to car 10w40. I wasted my time and money replacing a cct, they only fix temporily at best.

I have 63,000 on the bike the rear cct has that amount of miles, but I wasted my time replacing the front cct at 30,000 mile, cause at 35,000 it was making noise again. Exxon superflow 10w40

+10,000,000

my cct was making MAJOR noise and was figuring on a big bill. so i tried going from 15w50 to 10w40, and what do you know... silence!!!

i woulda never believed it if i didn't do it.

:)

I know people were calling me nuts for a long time and still do , I imagine>G<

The oil port through the cct gasket , (can barely even fit a needle through it) widening that ought to make a difference with oil flow also, just something I noticed, so lighter oil will get through that hole alot easier, being so small.

What causes the noise is when the tensioner gets dry and it rattles.

If some dont like a car oil, try a 5w40 motul or something, oil has to make it to the front tensioner, and has to be slung up though this tiny hole in a gasket a needle can barely fit through.

Its a TOUGH JOB!

I rode with pjm204 yesterday and heard the noise. Sounded almost like a knock. It did increase frequency with RPM I think, but was too hard to hear over the engine once you start revving lightly. Even the guys two parking spots over heard the noise. I think it's just time for an exhaust! I had all sorts of ticking/rattling/clacking on my VTX1300, but they all mysteriously went completely away when I put straight pipes on it! :happy:

I'm picking up my new-to-me 03 VFR this afternoon. It'll be interesting to compare the sounds and shifting to your 07.

Well I loosened the chain a tad last night, I'm not hopefull, but hoping that it takes care of my shifting issues...Maybe I'm just a noob at measuring slack with the SSSA.

[image: View Post]pjm204, on Oct 23 2009, 05:17 AM, said:

Well I loosened the chain a tad last night, I'm not hopefull, but hoping that it takes care of my shifting issues...Maybe I'm just a noob at measuring slack with the SSSA.

I had similar issues with shifting when I first got the bike and found out that it all comes down to rider input (sorry!). The VFR's gearbox can be very clunky when operated too lazily, but once you figure it out it's butter smooth. The key is to pull the clutch lever only partly in (just passed the friction point which is near the end of the lever travel) and do everything very quickly (clutch/throttle lift/shift simultaneously is the best description I can give). As you add up the miles, you will figure it out by yourself, it's a trial-and-error thing.

Regards,
Bruckner

[image: View Post]Bruckner, on Oct 23 2009, 08:36 AM, said:

[image: View Post]pjm204, on Oct 23 2009, 05:17 AM, said:

Well I loosened the chain a tad last night, I'm not hopefull, but hoping that it takes care of my shifting issues...Maybe I'm just a noob at measuring slack with the SSSA.

I had similar issues with shifting when I first got the bike and found out that it all comes down to rider input (sorry!). The VFR's gearbox can be very clunky when operated too lazily, but once you figure it out it's butter smooth. The key is to pull the clutch lever only partly in (just passed the friction point which is near the end of the lever travel) and do everything very quickly (clutch/throttle lift/shift simultaneously is the best description I can give). As you add up the miles, you will figure it out by yourself, it's a trial-and-error thing.

Regards,
Bruckner


I'll give it a try...as long as I'm not hurting the tranny at all, it doesn't bother me too much...But I would like to be able to shift up the lever without it clunking.

Someone in NJ has to be willing to check my bike out!

[image: View Post]ericlee, on Jul 31 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

I dont understand why the cam chain temsioners are such a big issue.my bike has 35,000 miles and its totally silent.


Mine made it 53k miles. I started it up in front of jeremy at the franklin meet and they started raising hell.

[image: View Post]pjm204, on 23 October 2009 - 02:07 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Bruckner, on Oct 23 2009, 08:36 AM, said:

[image: View Post]pjm204, on Oct 23 2009, 05:17 AM, said:

Well I loosened the chain a tad last night, I'm not hopefull, but hoping that it takes care of my shifting issues...Maybe I'm just a noob at measuring slack with the SSSA.

I had similar issues with shifting when I first got the bike and found out that it all comes down to rider input (sorry!). The VFR's gearbox can be very clunky when operated too lazily, but once you figure it out it's butter smooth. The key is to pull the clutch lever only partly in (just passed the friction point which is near the end of the lever travel) and do everything very quickly (clutch/throttle lift/shift simultaneously is the best description I can give). As you add up the miles, you will figure it out by yourself, it's a trial-and-error thing.

Regards,
Bruckner


I'll give it a try...as long as I'm not hurting the tranny at all, it doesn't bother me too much...But I would like to be able to shift up the lever without it clunking.

Someone in NJ has to be willing to check my bike out!

oil makes a prettty big difference on shift quality. how fresh is your oil? i always find shifting after fresh oil is smoother. AND you can try a lighter grade to see if it's your cct :) :)