Been kicking around some ideas for spending money on the VFR. I was over the past few months thinking about suspension upgrades. Whilst the current plan in the rear is to replace it with a Penske or similar shock, after recommendations that they are a good quality shock, I'm in a bit of a quandry in regards to the front.
I had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately???
He then went on to say that I can keep the existing forks and upgrade the internals (which is the sort of work he can do). here a suggestion was 600rr parts into the original forks. He can also revalve etc. He cautioned me in regards to the fact that the original shocks are (obviously) limited in adjustments, but he also talked about not being concentric and wear taking place that way. Is this a consideration?
Bike Background
2004 VFR done 95000km, prob 85% is commuting or in town work. Never had suspension serviced etc. Looking for ideas to keep it going for another 100,000 trouble free kms.
Frogfoot, Sep 11 2009, 04:48 PMI had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately???
Read this, this and this to get some ideas. The R1 is by far the better setup but is also a much more challenging project since you need to make a lot more customisations compared to the RC51 job.
I have an RC51 conversion. Also I have a Penske 2 clicker shock on the back to go with it and I have to say I am absolutely stoked with the result. It's like getting a brand new bike.
Also since you're in Sydney, if you didn't talk to this suspension guru then you should. He's done the setup on both mine and zRoYz conversions. He'll ramble on and on and half bore you to death but he sure knows what he's doing... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
I installed a Penske rear shock and had the stock front forks revalved and resprung based on my weight. Also upgraded the fork oil.
The results were dramatic. A bit more front end feel and the bike turns quicker (Penske I bought is 7mm longer than the stock rear). I feel much more confident with the way the bike now handles.
Frogfoot, Sep 11 2009, 04:48 PMI had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately???
Read this, this and this to get some ideas. The R1 is by far the better setup but is also a much more challenging project since you need to make a lot more customisations compared to the RC51 job.
I have an RC51 conversion. Also I have a Penske 2 clicker shock on the back to go with it and I have to say I am absolutely stoked with the result. It's like getting a brand new bike.
Also since you're in Sydney, if you didn't talk to this suspension guru then you should. He's done the setup on both mine and zRoYz conversions. He'll ramble on and on and half bore you to death but he sure knows what he's doing... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Actually that is the suspension guy I talked to. Roy is the one who put me on to him. I guess all this swaps etc has me all a bit nervous about how to actually get the parts, make sure they're good condition etc. The other main problem is having the bike off the road for more than a couple of days. Though the advantage is that I could learn a lot more about looking after the bike!
Frogfoot, Sep 11 2009, 02:48 AMI had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately???
That's not really very good advice. You should stick with Honda forks, or more specifically Showas. Try something like a CBR954RR or 929RR. The entire front will fit including the triple clamps. The triples are the biggest reason the R1 and ZX forks are a bad idea. Getting a complete front end to bolt in would be your best choice by a long shot.
Applicable donor fork models would include:
CBR600RR CBR1000RR CBR954RR CBR929RR RC51
Frogfoot, Sep 11 2009, 02:48 AMHe then went on to say that I can keep the existing forks and upgrade the internals (which is the sort of work he can do). here a suggestion was 600rr parts into the original forks. He can also revalve etc. He cautioned me in regards to the fact that the original shocks are (obviously) limited in adjustments, but he also talked about not being concentric and wear taking place that way. Is this a consideration?
The 600RR internals are not a good choice, but rather the F4 or F4i could be adapted. That would gain you external rebound adjustment. Upgrading the stock valving is something I've done for many guys and it's always worked out well. For the money (less than $500) you can really make the stock forks work well.
I'm not sure what he means by 'concentric', that part kind of concerns me and makes me wonder if he really knows what he's talking about. The stock VFR forks are the same build quality as any other Showa/Honda part.
Frogfoot, Sep 11 2009, 02:48 AMI had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately???
That's not really very good advice. You should stick with Honda forks, or more specifically Showas. Try something like a CBR954RR or 929RR. The entire front will fit including the triple clamps. The triples are the biggest reason the R1 and ZX forks are a bad idea. What's the big deal, the forks are the same diameter, it's already been done & documented! The R1 conversion even allows for a matching front wheel. Getting a complete front end to bolt in would be your best choice by a long shot.
Applicable donor fork models would include:
CBR600RR CBR1000RR CBR954RR CBR929RR RC51
Frogfoot, Sep 11 2009, 02:48 AMHe then went on to say that I can keep the existing forks and upgrade the internals (which is the sort of work he can do). here a suggestion was 600rr parts into the original forks. He can also revalve etc. He cautioned me in regards to the fact that the original shocks are (obviously) limited in adjustments, but he also talked about not being concentric and wear taking place that way. Is this a consideration?
The 600RR internals are not a good choice, but rather the F4 or F4i could be adapted. That would gain you external rebound adjustment. Upgrading the stock valving is something I've done for many guys and it's always worked out well. For the money (less than $500) you can really make the stock forks work well. 600RR's have rebound too, but are a different diameter cap/tube.
I'm not sure what he means by 'concentric', that part kind of concerns me and makes me wonder if he really knows what he's talking about. The guy has almost 60,000 miles on stock, never serviced suspension. I would hazard to guess that he was referring to the tube & slider bushings! The stock VFR forks are the same build quality as any other Showa/Honda part.
Another good choice that doesn't seem to get much "press" which I guess is due to not being an USD unit is the F4i. It also requires less total parts as you can use the VFR wheel and rotors; maybe the axle and spacers too but I forget.
Remember, any front end replacement on a 5/6gen will require addressing the LBS brake issue.
FotoMoto, Sep 11 2009, 11:02 AMAnother good choice that doesn't seem to get much "press" which I guess is due to not being an USD unit is the F4i. It also requires less total parts as you can use the VFR wheel and rotors; maybe the axle and spacers too but I forget.
Remember, any front end replacement on a 5/6gen will require addressing the LBS brake issue.
+1 to Jamie's post..
Im currently in the process of trying to work out the kinks of the valving using the F4 internals in the stock VFR forks.. Revalving is a must with the F4 mod.. The easiest and least ammount of Custom work way to go is the F4internals with Oem VFR forks, Resprung, and fork oil... Might not be the Top of the line way to go but it will bbe better than stock. + you wont have to redo the brake system..
Ryanme17, Sep 11 2009, 01:15 PMCartridge emulators (and a new spring, if you need it) can't be all that more expensive than changing around the whole front end, right?
Ryanme17, Sep 11 2009, 12:15 PMCartridge emulators (and a new spring, if you need it) can't be all that more expensive than changing around the whole front end, right?
If I'm not mistaken, emulators are only for non-cartridge forks. Like SV 650's (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)
Frogfoot, Sep 11 2009, 02:48 AMI had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately???
That's not really very good advice. You should stick with Honda forks, or more specifically Showas. Try something like a CBR954RR or 929RR. The entire front will fit including the triple clamps. The triples are the biggest reason the R1 and ZX forks are a bad idea. Getting a complete front end to bolt in would be your best choice by a long shot.
Jamie, the R1 forks go into the CBR929/954/SP1 triples with just some 2mm spacers, it's a piece of cake. The R1 forks are longer than 929/954 forks so you can get closer to the optimum geometry.
Also, Zeno is the suspension tech for the Australian Superbike factory Suzuki team, so he has a few clues about what he's doing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fing02.gif)
(he did my forks too - actually he mated my 2004 R1 lowers to 2005 ZX-10R uppers with a bit of lathe trickery - and they are schmick)
Ryanme17, Sep 11 2009, 12:15 PMCartridge emulators (and a new spring, if you need it) can't be all that more expensive than changing around the whole front end, right?
If I'm not mistaken, emulators are only for non-cartridge forks. Like SV 650's (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)
Yes, that's right, wrong terminology on my part. Gold valves??? Is that what I'm going for?
Frogfoot, Sep 11 2009, 07:39 PMActually that is the suspension guy I talked to. Roy is the one who put me on to him. I guess all this swaps etc has me all a bit nervous about how to actually get the parts, make sure they're good condition etc. The other main problem is having the bike off the road for more than a couple of days. Though the advantage is that I could learn a lot more about looking after the bike!
Where did you get the rear hugger?
Ah, so you've already met James then? Interesting character, that one...
Yeah getting parts second hand can be a bit of a lottery. I was lucky, the worst I had to deal with was a warped disc that was easily straightened. Someone else I know bought a set of forks that were just complete rubbish and unusable. Caveat emptor...
The trick to fork swaps is to get everything you need beforehand, then plan it all exactly. You can have the job done in a weekend with good preparation.
Frogfoot, Sep 11 2009, 02:48 AMI had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately???
That's not really very good advice. You should stick with Honda forks, or more specifically Showas. Try something like a CBR954RR or 929RR. The entire front will fit including the triple clamps. The triples are the biggest reason the R1 and ZX forks are a bad idea. Getting a complete front end to bolt in would be your best choice by a long shot.
Applicable donor fork models would include:
CBR600RR CBR1000RR CBR954RR CBR929RR RC51
Frogfoot, Sep 11 2009, 02:48 AMHe then went on to say that I can keep the existing forks and upgrade the internals (which is the sort of work he can do). here a suggestion was 600rr parts into the original forks. He can also revalve etc. He cautioned me in regards to the fact that the original shocks are (obviously) limited in adjustments, but he also talked about not being concentric and wear taking place that way. Is this a consideration?
The 600RR internals are not a good choice, but rather the F4 or F4i could be adapted. That would gain you external rebound adjustment. Upgrading the stock valving is something I've done for many guys and it's always worked out well. For the money (less than $500) you can really make the stock forks work well.
I'm not sure what he means by 'concentric', that part kind of concerns me and makes me wonder if he really knows what he's talking about. The stock VFR forks are the same build quality as any other Showa/Honda part.
A somewhat bold statement considering who we are talking about here.
No offense meant but admitting you are unsure of the meaning of the word concentric is a little more concerning.
"Concentric objects share the same center, axis or origin with one inside the other. Circles, tubes, cylindrical shafts, disks, and spheres may be concentric to one another. Concentric objects do not generally have the same radius." A fork assembly is full of such objects. "Concentric" does not refer to "build quality". I think Seb is on track.
You go on to recommend non-valid parts... I'm definitely no expert... far from it... but I don't try to pass as one. It is sound practice to question other's expertise but a little homework is always appreciated...
I'm not trying to be "in your face", but the man in question has more than demonstrated his expertise... on par with the some of the best...
Auspa�ol, Sep 12 2009, 09:45 PMI think Seb is on track.
I didn't get a chance to meet him as he was out test riding when I got to his shop. He called me back later and we had a good chat. I think what Seb is thinking about is the impression that I had from him as well.
I guess, I'm probably leaning starting to think away from a whole fork replacement and to head towards a front fork rejuvenation. I realise (now) that I haven't been taking care of them as I should (silly me assuming that this kind of thing would be in the servicing) so I can only presume the innards are a bit tired. If I get new (right weight) springs, revalve and replace the oil, I assume I will have something better than it is now. I think I will also go ahead with replacing the rear shock though as even with my average skills I still occasionally feel as if the rear is a bit... well.... deflated, squashy. And I hope a new, better, properly tuned shock will improve that (and the rest of the ride as well)
Does that sound fair. Then perhaps I can start looking into the sourcing the front at for the future???
Auspa�ol, Sep 12 2009, 09:45 PMI think Seb is on track.
I didn't get a chance to meet him as he was out test riding when I got to his shop. He called me back later and we had a good chat. I think what Seb is thinking about is the impression that I had from him as well.
I guess, I'm probably leaning starting to think away from a whole fork replacement and to head towards a front fork rejuvenation. I realise (now) that I haven't been taking care of them as I should (silly me assuming that this kind of thing would be in the servicing) so I can only presume the innards are a bit tired. If I get new (right weight) springs, revalve and replace the oil, I assume I will have something better than it is now. I think I will also go ahead with replacing the rear shock though as even with my average skills I still occasionally feel as if the rear is a bit... well.... deflated, squashy. And I hope a new, better, properly tuned shock will improve that (and the rest of the ride as well)
Does that sound fair. Then perhaps I can start looking into the sourcing the front at for the future???
This is pretty much what I did and am very pleased with the results. At first I was not sure if I liked what I had done since it was a big change in the way the bike feels over bumps and when cornering. Some very minor adjusting and a few hundred miles later and now the VFR handles much more like a sport bike with no loss of comfort. Total cost was 900 bucks and I feel it was money well spent. I bought a slightly used Penske from a friend. I called Traxxion Dynamics and told them my weight and riding habits, then shipped them my fork tubes.
Frogfoot, Sep 11 2009, 02:48 AMI had a discussion with a suspension guy this afternoon. His suggestion for the best result was to replace the forks in total. His suggestions were R1 or 03/04 ZX6R shocks. Are those good suggestions? Any other suggestions for a donor. What are simple fits? How big of a job is this (it isn't something I'm even dreaming of doing myself), what might need to be made up separately???
That's not really very good advice. You should stick with Honda forks, or more specifically Showas. Try something like a CBR954RR or 929RR. The entire front will fit including the triple clamps. The triples are the biggest reason the R1 and ZX forks are a bad idea. Getting a complete front end to bolt in would be your best choice by a long shot.
Applicable donor fork models would include:
CBR600RR CBR1000RR CBR954RR CBR929RR RC51
Frogfoot, Sep 11 2009, 02:48 AMHe then went on to say that I can keep the existing forks and upgrade the internals (which is the sort of work he can do). here a suggestion was 600rr parts into the original forks. He can also revalve etc. He cautioned me in regards to the fact that the original shocks are (obviously) limited in adjustments, but he also talked about not being concentric and wear taking place that way. Is this a consideration?
The 600RR internals are not a good choice, but rather the F4 or F4i could be adapted. That would gain you external rebound adjustment. Upgrading the stock valving is something I've done for many guys and it's always worked out well. For the money (less than $500) you can really make the stock forks work well.
I'm not sure what he means by 'concentric', that part kind of concerns me and makes me wonder if he really knows what he's talking about. The stock VFR forks are the same build quality as any other Showa/Honda part.
A somewhat bold statement considering who we are talking about here.
No offense meant but admitting you are unsure of the meaning of the word concentric is a little more concerning.
"Concentric objects share the same center, axis or origin with one inside the other. Circles, tubes, cylindrical shafts, disks, and spheres may be concentric to one another. Concentric objects do not generally have the same radius." A fork assembly is full of such objects. "Concentric" does not refer to "build quality". I think Seb is on track.
You go on to recommend non-valid parts... I'm definitely no expert... far from it... but I don't try to pass as one. It is sound practice to question other's expertise but a little homework is always appreciated...
I'm not trying to be "in your face", but the man in question has more than demonstrated his expertise... on par with the some of the best...
As a degreed Mechanical Engineer I am very familiar with the definition of concentricity. My concern was what he meant by it, which I still do not see answered. Maybe it was something lost in translation?
As for the other parts being non-valid: sure, they are shorter but my experience with these kind of fork swaps tells me that it would be actually easier to accomodate shorter forks than to open the can of worms thats comes along with mating Yamaha forks to Honda triples. Especially the mess you get when trying to get the wheel/calipers/rotors to all line up properly. Maybe this is really simple as you suggest, it was me expressing a concern and trying to redirect down a path that I thought would be better.
Zeno is for sure the man. I've spoken with him on the topic of suspension tuning on many occasions. If that is where you are getting your advice then I would say go with whatever he tells you.
JamieDaugherty, Sep 13 2009, 01:12 PMAs a degreed Mechanical Engineer I am very familiar with the definition of concentricity. My concern was what he meant by it, which I still do not see answered. Maybe it was something lost in translation? Sure seems that way...
As for the other parts being non-valid: sure, they are shorter but my experience with these kind of fork swaps tells me that it would be actually easier to accomodate shorter forks than to open the can of worms thats comes along with mating Yamaha forks to Honda triples. Especially the mess you get when trying to get the wheel/calipers/rotors to all line up properly. Maybe this is really simple as you suggest, it was me expressing a concern and trying to redirect down a path that I thought would be better. For years you've been telling VF owners the exact opposite! Yep, I'd much rather have my tire hit my cylinder head than make a couple new wheel and/or rotor spacers... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)
JamieDaugherty, Sep 14 2009, 03:12 AMAs for the other parts being non-valid: sure, they are shorter but my experience with these kind of fork swaps tells me that it would be actually easier to accomodate shorter forks than to open the can of worms thats comes along with mating Yamaha forks to Honda triples. Especially the mess you get when trying to get the wheel/calipers/rotors to all line up properly. Maybe this is really simple as you suggest, it was me expressing a concern and trying to redirect down a path that I thought would be better.
That's a fair enough point. The 2004+ R1 swap is definitely a simple one. As the R1 forks are normally spaced 210mm apart and the Honda triples space the forks 214mm apart you simply need a bunch of 2mm spacers per side, on either side of the OEM axle spacers, and between the rotors and wheel (as you can't space radial calipers).
Zeno is for sure the man. I've spoken with him on the topic of suspension tuning on many occasions. If that is where you are getting your advice then I would say go with whatever he tells you.
'Within reason'... Zeno's advice is very track-centric, and he needs a bit of a prod to remember that his customers also ride their bikes on (bumpy) Australian roads (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fing02.gif)
And if you value your time, avoid getting into theological discussions with him - easier said than done, given the way he can link such disparate terms as 'springrate' and 'existentialist' in a long rambling monologue that often does actually end up having a valid and relevant point...
As for the other parts being non-valid: sure, they are shorter but my experience with these kind of fork swaps tells me that it would be actually easier to accomodate shorter forks than to open the can of worms thats comes along with mating Yamaha forks to Honda triples. Especially the mess you get when trying to get the wheel/calipers/rotors to all line up properly. Maybe this is really simple as you suggest, it was me expressing a concern and trying to redirect down a path that I thought would be better. For years you've been telling VF owners the exact opposite! Yep, I'd much rather have my tire hit my cylinder head than make a couple new wheel and/or rotor spacers... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)
I most certainly have not! Clearly when performing a fork swap you should always check clearances, especially with the forks completely compressed. I never said anything to the contrary in this thread. What I have stated is that it would be easier to deal with setting up the forks longer rather than trying to make a hodge-podge (my assumption) of forks/triples/wheel/rotors/calipers work correctly together. The point being that while it would be difficult to setup, say a CBR1000RR front end, it would be easier in my opinion.
The Phantom, Sep 14 2009, 03:09 AM'Within reason'... Zeno's advise is very track-centric, and he needs a bit of a prod to remember that his customers also ride their bikes on (bumpy) Australian roads (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fing02.gif)
And if you value your time, avoid getting into theological discussions with him - easier said than done, given the way he can link such disparate terms as 'springrate' and 'existentialist' in a long rambling monologue that often does actually end up having a valid and relevant point...
Agreed! You should see some of our correspondences. It sounds like you wouldn't be to surprised.
Lets not forget that most everyone's advice here is meant to be positive, whether it happens to be accurate or not! So lets try not to get at each other here, just support with facts if possible and let other thing slide as long as it's not info that could get someone hurt. Lets not go personal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif)
Hell even I have giver bogus info on occasion! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)
btw JD, the R1 fork swap on a VFR is one of the most common used. Yes we all wish mother Honda would have easy frankenviffer swaps for us and our VFR's but there are few even possibilities. The RC51 Sp1 forks are one of the few that work well but tend to be fairly scarce. I'm currently looking at using k7 GSXR forks on my project bike.
OK, so to summerize the "What to look for" parts when swapping the whole front end...it comes down to this:
Total Front end length (avoid compressing and hitting the motor etc) Fork Spacing for upper and lower triple's Fork size...USD forks would naturally not mate with stock triples, but other triples might bolt in? Desired fronts to use...R1 is good, CB350 is bad, etc...Jimmy offered a list: CBR600RR CBR1000RR CBR954RR CBR929RR RC51 ...I am sure there are more, and what years are better/worse?
Along with this would be ease of changing based on a compromise: If I am unwilling/unable to change the triples, what options are there? If I need to use the wheel/rotors I have, what options? If money is no object, which is best? If I need SOMETHING, but I don't care what, which is easiest beyond OEM replacement?
Watching this thread closely as I'll have to change my fork fluid this off season and had a recomendation from choco to change out the springs (and parts) for a set up more suited to the rider (me - at 240lbs). He had good luck with RaceTech parts, but a challenge with the installation service.
As I too am planning on keeping my current bike and always look to improve (cost effectively) can ya'll suggest the best parts replacement "WITHOUT" completely changing the forks? Links and service recommendations appreciated. I would prefer a manufacturer brand rather than a different model setup, to minimize / eliminate any wheel, body or break modifications.
didit, Sep 14 2009, 05:30 PMWatching this thread closely as I'll have to change my fork fluid this off season and had a recomendation from choco to change out the springs (and parts) for a set up more suited to the rider (me - at 240lbs). He had good luck with RaceTech parts, but a challenge with the installation service.
As I too am planning on keeping my current bike and always look to improve (cost effectively) can ya'll suggest the best parts replacement "WITHOUT" completely changing the forks? Links and service recommendations appreciated. I would prefer a manufacturer brand rather than a different model setup, to minimize / eliminate any wheel, body or break modifications.
I used to install RaceTech springs now I use Sonic Springs. They're a bit cheaper but just as good on quality. Plus I can get special rates and still be able to offer them for $85 installed. Have no fear with using them.
I think just revalving the stock forks is a great way to go. There are advantages to using inverted forks off something else, but for most street riders making improvements to the stock forks gets them plenty of performance. A proper suspension setup goes a long way to improving control, performance, and overall riding enjoyment. I've been installing both RaceTech and Ohlins valves and would say that either would work well for you. As a street rider, I'd suggest going with the RaceTech compression valves only and reshimming the stock VFR rebound valves. That's the most cost effective way to get a big performance increase.
It's not really been discussed here (and it's probably a thread jack) but revalving and respringing the stock VFR shock results in performance gains that would surprise many. Luckily for us there are lots of options and it really depends on what you want and how much you have to spend. You don't necessarily need to look at parts from other bikes to get what are after. It's when you want 'more' that getting technology from other bikes becomes helpful.
OK, so to summerize the "What to look for" parts when swapping the whole front end...it comes down to this:
...Jimmy offered a list: CBR600RR CBR1000RR CBR954RR CBR929RR RC51
Of this list, I think only the RC51(sp1) forks are long enough to be a suitable swap! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)
As I have tried some pretty drastic changes in the geometry of my bike, Raise/lower front/rear just to see the effects.. IMHO I wouldnt use any forks that are over 1" shorter without seriously considering a steering dampner also.. Tank slappers are not fun..
JamieDaugherty, Sep 14 2009, 08:21 PMI've been installing both RaceTech and Ohlins valves and would say that either would work well for you. As a street rider, I'd suggest going with the RaceTech compression valves only and reshimming the stock VFR rebound valves. That's the most cost effective way to get a big performance increase.
JD, aren't there HUGE differences between Race Tech & Ohlins valves alone??? From what I've seen the Ohlins valves use Much smaller ports, much closer to stock Honda valves than the open(huge) racetech valves! Is that still the case?
I am no suspension expert whatsoever, but I've heard many experts talk about racetech ports being so large that they no longer perform one aspect of suspension dynamics and that that function is now moved to being controlled by the shim stack adding to it's load and limiting the ability to compensate for it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)
Since you use both valves in your builds, do you have to run drastically different shim stacks from one valve to the other and is it still true that the Ohlins ports are much smaller and closer to stock size than race tech valves?
It seems that race tech has a much different philosophy than Ohlins when it come to valves & valving! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif)
To me, if prices were similar or even close I would always choose Ohlins products over race teck. Not that you can't improve performance or feel with Rt products, but I consider Ohlins to be the Top if not one of the best suspension company's in the World and would have to think their products were superior. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)
Kev, not sure which RT valve he's referring to, but the new RT G2R Gold Valve doesn't have the huge ports anymore, well - sort of. They allow for tuning of port size now: http://www.race-tech.com/HTML_FILES/GVWHYGV.html
SEBSPEED, Sep 15 2009, 12:11 PMKev, not sure which RT valve he's referring to, but the new RT G2R Gold Valve doesn't have the huge ports anymore, well - sort of. They allow for tuning of port size now: http://www.race-tech.com/HTML_FILES/GVWHYGV.html
JamieDaugherty, Sep 14 2009, 08:21 PMI've been installing both RaceTech and Ohlins valves and would say that either would work well for you. As a street rider, I'd suggest going with the RaceTech compression valves only and reshimming the stock VFR rebound valves. That's the most cost effective way to get a big performance increase.
JD, aren't there HUGE differences between Race Tech & Ohlins valves alone??? From what I've seen the Ohlins valves use Much smaller ports, much closer to stock Honda valves than the open(huge) racetech valves! Is that still the case?
I am no suspension expert whatsoever, but I've heard many experts talk about racetech ports being so large that they no longer perform one aspect of suspension dynamics and that that function is now moved to being controlled by the shim stack adding to it's load and limiting the ability to compensate for it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)
Since you use both valves in your builds, do you have to run drastically different shim stacks from one valve to the other and is it still true that the Ohlins ports are much smaller and closer to stock size than race tech valves?
It seems that race tech has a much different philosophy than Ohlins when it come to valves & valving! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif)
To me, if prices were similar or even close I would always choose Ohlins products over race teck. Not that you can't improve performance or feel with Rt products, but I consider Ohlins to be the Top if not one of the best suspension company's in the World and would have to think their products were superior. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)
Yes, there are noticeable differences in the design of the RaceTech and Ohlins valves. As such the shim stacks used are very different. Some of it is just like you describe - RaceTech uses very large ports so that the shim stack can control all of the damping curve. The problem comes in when you need more high speed but not as much mid-speed. Dual stage and preloaded stacks have been used for this in the past and those two offer ways to tune the damping. The G2-R valves allow you to actually adjust the port size opening, effectively being able to create a more restrictive flowing valve. All of the G2-R applications I've installed have used the ports wide open, for whatever that is worth. The G2-R valves also bend the shim differently which is more controlled. The standard Type I valves still work very well for both street and race applications. That's what I run in my personal bikes.
The Ohlins valves perform pretty well. I've found the RaceTech parts to have more adjustability which is something I like. Adjusting the shim stack on the Ohlins valves doesn't seem to have as much of an effect. The Ohlins valves ports are still bigger than stock, so it tells me that you want more flow. I guess it's a matter of how much you want the valve to control the high end of the shaft speed and how much you want the shim stack to control it. The extreme low end is controlled by the free bleed or external adjusters (if they exist). In between both the RaceTech and Ohlins valves seem to work about the same.
SEBSPEED, Sep 15 2009, 12:11 PMKev, not sure which RT valve he's referring to, but the new RT G2R Gold Valve doesn't have the huge ports anymore, well - sort of. They allow for tuning of port size now: http://www.race-tech.com/HTML_FILES/GVWHYGV.html
JamieDaugherty, Sep 15 2009, 05:51 PMThat's a picture of the newest generation motocross valve. The G2-R fork valves look vey different. Here is what the fork valves look like: (IMG:http://www.racetech.com/images/GV_G2R_2_600.jpg)
I've got some valves that look similar. Came in a set of junk FleaBay cartridges. Anyone have a copy of the setup instructions?
thx1139, Sep 16 2009, 11:59 AMI've got some valves that look similar. Came in a set of junk FleaBay cartridges. Anyone have a copy of the setup instructions?
Pete McCrary(member here) has the new G2-R valves in his VFR, try asking him.
Tightwad, Sep 14 2009, 04:20 PMOK, so to summerize the "What to look for" parts when swapping the whole front end...it comes down to this:
...Jimmy offered a list: CBR600RR CBR1000RR CBR954RR CBR929RR RC51
Of this list, I think only the RC51(sp1) forks are long enough to be a suitable swap! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)
The SP2 forks are shorter but can still work, it takes a little more effort to dial the geometry in. If you're going to use superbike bars, the others should be long enough also.
The Phantom, Sep 14 2009, 12:09 AMThat's a fair enough point. The 2004+ R1 swap is definitely a simple one. As the R1 forks are normally spaced 210mm apart and the Honda triples space the forks 214mm apart you simply need a bunch of 2mm spacers per side, on either side of the OEM axle spacers, and between the rotors and wheel (as you can't space radial calipers).
Do you know the details on how the rotor spacing was handled? Zroyz didn't mention the details in his R1 swap write up but did mention the difficulty in this.
JamieDaugherty, Sep 15 2009, 05:51 PMThat's a picture of the newest generation motocross valve. The G2-R fork valves look vey different. Here is what the fork valves look like:
I've got some valves that look similar. Came in a set of junk FleaBay cartridges. Anyone have a copy of the setup instructions?
I've got them. Shoot me an e-mail and I'll scan them to a pdf and shoot them your way.
End of thread · 39 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 17 Sep 2009
