Benefits of Power Commander on stock 6th gen?

People seem to find benefits to modifying their fuel mapping after they've added an aftermarket exhaust or air filter, is the PC a worthwhile expense for a completely stock VFR? What improvements can be made? Better mpg? Smoother/more linear acceleration? Please educate me. TIA?

Smoother throttle response at low rpm as well as a smoother transition from two valves per cylinder to four when the V-TEC is actuated. Also the power does not drop off quite so much above 10,000 rpm.

Well...at least that is what the PCIII and a good fuel map did for my VFR.

I am running Cozye's map with Staintune exhaust. Cozye's map is available in the downloads section of VFRD.

I just finished installing a PC3 into my stock '02 vfr and i was very happy with the results. I used the map from the dynojet website that was made for a stock bike and it works beautifully.

I have a PCIII on my 2003 and, like people say, it provides smoother throttle control. No more stumbling below 5,000 rpm. I tried to disconnect last summer to see if I could use to it--the plan was to sell my pcIII if I didn't need it, but I was going nuts with the lower stumbling at low rpm when riding around town. I plugged it back in and I can tolerate it much more easily now. But maybe it's just me too...
Cheers,
C

[image: View Post]BenBurton, on 28 December 2009 - 05:12 AM, said:

I just finished installing a PC3 into my stock '02 vfr and i was very happy with the results. I used the map from the dynojet website that was made for a stock bike and it works beautifully.

Welcome to VFRD Mate! :fing02:

My 02 is still PC-less. :rolleyes:

My 03 PC less also, I don't have any stumble, it does have a BMC air filter, with the stock exhaust heavy altered . I did the starter valve sync.Increace my idle to about 1350 rpm.

I don't think Coyze's map will work if you have a 2006 due to the vtec transition points. Give it a shot though. I had my 2006 custom mapped and you're welcome to give it a shot.

Mine has a PC2 I think Not sure whose map its pretty smooth and the transition is not bad at all if you modulate the throttle and don't slam it wide open the transition is almost not noticable. Or slam the thing open for some yee haa fun :biggrin:

I have K&N, PC, and staintune mufflers.. hmmm they sound goooooooddd!!!!

Yea O6 is the year they changed the vtec transition point - supposed to fix the surge or rather flat spot then sudden accelleration. You cannot blame the pc for milage issues, only the map your using.

[image: View Post]Switchblade, on 29 December 2009 - 03:38 AM, said:

My 03 PC less also, I don't have any stumble, it does have a BMC air filter, with the stock exhaust heavy altered . I did the starter valve sync.Increace my idle to about 1350 rpm.

I believe honda fixed the stock fuel map in the 03 version. or so i have heard. I know the euro '02s have alot of ups and downs through the rev range which is why I wanted to upgrade. I got my PC3 second hand for $100 with eliminators. best $$ ive spent on my baby so far.

Two points:

1) Yes, on 06 and newer you need a different map - but someone here has done it... can't remember who? That is the map I am running with some small mods for a PC V (because it has another RPM range). All I have is a two bros pipe.

2) You don't know how much better the bike can be until you get the PC. I too was curious how much it could really help the transition... but honestly, it pretty much disappeared. I can feel it *slightly* in 1st gear, but above that it is gone. Plus it really did smooth out low RPM performance.

Highly recommended!

I have one on my 07 RWB, and I can't say enough about it! I have cat-less 5th gen OEM headers, modded airbox, -1 countershaft, and Staintunes. The transition is gone, and the thing is just plain smooth when running around town. I am running Cozye's map, I didn't know until just now that they say it won't work for a later than 06, but hey, it seems to run just fine to me! Just get one, you won't be dissapointed!

Is there anyway (within reason) that you could create a situation with the PC in which your motorcycle ran so lean as to damage the engine? I only ask as the one VFR engine failure (which was thought to have been caused by a lean condition) I have heard of was from a person that also happen to be running a PC.

Any other thoughts on affects on mpg? I really don't want to take a hit in that department. Even if it means smoother throttle response, a drop in mpg is not worth it for me.

The reason that the bike runs better, is because it is getting more fuel. The thing is starved from the factory! When I did my header swap, all four valve stems were white, from lean conditions. If you don't want to shell out the money for a PCIII, then I suggest that you just do the o2eliminator mod. That way, you are running the stock Honda map, with no leaning from the o2 sensors. I ran mine around for months in that configuration, and it ran really well. Yes, the gas mileage takes a hit, but that is why it runs better! I still get 38mpg, with a really heavy wrist, and Cozye's map!

As previously stated, "smoother throttle control." No flat spots when rolling on the throttle, and an easing of the transition from 2-valve per cylinder to 4-valve per cylinder when V-TEC kicks in. The Power Commander farkle is a huge difference over the stock fuel mapping, which has issues.

[image: View Post]swimmer, on 15 January 2010 - 05:22 PM, said:

Is there anyway (within reason) that you could create a situation with the PC in which your motorcycle ran so lean as to damage the engine? I only ask as the one VFR engine failure (which was thought to have been caused by a lean condition) I have heard of was from a person that also happen to be running a PC.

Any other thoughts on affects on mpg? I really don't want to take a hit in that department. Even if it means smoother throttle response, a drop in mpg is not worth it for me.

Sure, a PCIII simply adds or removes fuel in percentages from the stock map. So if you made your own map and subtracted too much fuel you could do damage. But why would you do that? I think for this to happen on accident would take some sort of software failture, as if your PCIII broke, it would just revert to stock map.

Again, the only reason for PCIII on stock is to make it smoother, as our bikes are too lean from stock. Add an aftermarket exhaust and air filter and the lean condition becomes worse.

Something to keep in mind is that the PCV is only a few dollars more, allows map-by-gear, comes with more features and stuff, and would allow a future auto-tune upgrade.

Hi all... New to this forum, but I have been on the VFRWorld.com forum for the past 4 years. Nice format in here. Doesn't tax the computer to load it.

Ok, so first off I'm an old-fart. I'm 48 and I have been riding since I was 12. I am 6'2", 180#, with a 36" inseam. I have ridden all different types of street and dual purpose bikes (back in my day we called them Enduros).

I got my 2006 VFR, I should say practically stole my 2006 VFR, in 2007. I happened across a CycleTrader ad for a 2006 black VFR in the Orlando, Florida area, which is about an hour's ride from me. The ad was for a 2006 black VFR with cases and case liners. The bike had 734 miles on it. The asking price was $7999! I called to see what was wrong with it! The dealeship was selling it on consignment and he told me there was nothing wrong with it, but that the owner's son bought a FJR1300 and they don't ride the Honda anymore. Ok, so I went to take a look and sure enough the bike was emmaculate. They had done the 600 mile maintenance on it.

I rode up in my 2007 Ducati ST3, and to me it was a no brainer. I bought the VFR then and there. Ergos are the same for both bikes. The Ducati sitting a bit taller and had a better stock seat. But maintenance on the Ducati was killing me. I put 15,000 miles on a bike in a year, and two maintenance intervals later, at $1,000 a pop, was not what I considered fun riding. The Honda's maintenance is way less frequent, less costly, the hard cases are GIVI which were better than the Duc's bags, and the Honda just felt better planted, with very little surging in my opinion. You want a surging problem, I will recommend the 2007 Ducati ST3. Downright dangerous and unfixable unless you opt for the performance package ($2000).

I was about even on my Ducati loan, so I got the Honda OTD for the $8,000 even. I smile big everytime I tell people how much I saved buying this 'used' bike!

Anywho, this is a common thread for all motorcycles. 'To PC or not to PC, that's the question.' Personally, as I said, my VFR didn't have but a slight spit and was predictable and controllable with adept throttle use. The flatspot at about 4500rpm wasn't that annoying to me. I run the stock chip set and exhaust and use regular gas, getting 46mpg still. Mods that I made? - Givi touring windscreen (very nice), K&N air filter kit, Metzler M6 Roadtecs, and Power Commander O2 sensor elliminators (no PC3, but it illiminated the surging and improved the flat spot).

You want to feel a bit more power? Get rid of those flat spots? Going out this weekend to hit the twisties? Try putting a tank of premium in and add a full bottle of STP octane boost! My bike popped the front wheel at about 4krpm, and it came up so fast I thought it was going to flip me over! Of course, using octane boost on a regular basis is not a good thing, but once in a while it's good to clean the crap out. It basically ups the anti about 6-8 horsepower and provides a day's worth of fun.

If you get aftermarket exhausts, you might as well get the most out of them and get the PCIII. Tune it to the best online mapping you can get and if you're not happy then take it to your mechanic for fine tuning on a dyno. I just happen to like the subtle V-8 sound of my stock exhaust on idle, and I like it quiet on the highway as well. I prefer listening to my music on long rides, not the drone of the exhaust.

Soooooooo..... Safe and Happy Riding to you all!

Stan

[image: View Post]Wabbit1961, on 17 January 2010 - 03:35 PM, said:

You want to feel a bit more power? Get rid of those flat spots? Going out this weekend to hit the twisties? Try putting a tank of premium in and add a full bottle of STP octane boost! My bike popped the front wheel at about 4krpm, and it came up so fast I thought it was going to flip me over! Of course, using octane boost on a regular basis is not a good thing, but once in a while it's good to clean the crap out. It basically ups the anti about 6-8 horsepower and provides a day's worth of fun.

This again?! Sigh...

Octane is a rating of when gasoline combusts. Higher octane ratings are needed for vehicles with higher compression ratios. Without adding a blower or increasing the compression, premium fuel and octane booster will NOT add horsepower. It won't make your engine run better, or burn cleaner. It will essential do nothing that 87 octane won't do. It won't hurt your engine, just your wallet.

6-8 horsepower is best case scenario with: catless headers, aftermarket exhaust, aftermarket air filter, PCIII, etc...

I see by your picture you say your a race team owner. Maybe not so successful if you don't know the real purpose of a higher octane in fuel. But what do I know, I'm just a chemical engineer. Maybe you should look up the physics of the formulas for power and work and get back to me... Better yet, read a useful article like this one:

http://www.europeanc...sted/index.html

Try putting the whole bottle of octane boost into your 5 gallons of 93 octane. It effectively raises the level to 98-100 octane. Maybe you're too young to remember Sunoco 102 gasoline. All's the pity.

[image: View Post]Wabbit1961, on 18 January 2010 - 01:51 AM, said:

I see by your picture you say your a race team owner. Maybe not so successful if you don't know the real purpose of a higher octane in fuel. But what do I know, I'm just a chemical engineer. Maybe you should look up the physics of the formulas for power and work and get back to me... Better yet, read a useful article like this one:

http://www.europeanc...sted/index.html

Try putting the whole bottle of octane boost into your 5 gallons of 93 octane. It effectively raises the level to 98-100 octane. Maybe you're too young to remember Sunoco 102 gasoline. All's the pity.

The "race team owner" thing is a level set by VFRD for posting activity. As one post's more they sort of "level up" to different titles. I have no control over this, it's just for fun.

Also, we try not to make things personal here. I corrected your information because it is wrong, not any personal judgment on you.

As your article pointed out, octane booster does increase the octane level of fuel, but as it also pointed out (Cf. paragraph 7), this only gains horsepower in the situation where an engine's knock sensor tells the computer to retard timing to avoid detonation. Paragraph 6 states that this is only necessary for higher compression engines. An engine designed to run on high octane gasoline will have less power while running on low octane gasoline because the timing will be retarded to prevent pre-detonation. 6th generation VFR's are designed to run on 86-87 octane rating fuel without knock. If your Viffer has better horsepower while on premium fuel, this would indicate a serious (and so far unheard-of) engine problem.

Again, the octane rating of gasoline is a rating of what point the fuel will detonate at. It is not a magic panacea for making big horsepower.

I'm curious, would adding the PC (thus richening the mix) cause the engine temp to drop a bit? It's always been my experience that leaner means hotter.

[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on 18 January 2010 - 03:37 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Wabbit1961, on 17 January 2010 - 03:35 PM, said:

You want to feel a bit more power? Get rid of those flat spots? Going out this weekend to hit the twisties? Try putting a tank of premium in and add a full bottle of STP octane boost! My bike popped the front wheel at about 4krpm, and it came up so fast I thought it was going to flip me over! Of course, using octane boost on a regular basis is not a good thing, but once in a while it's good to clean the crap out. It basically ups the anti about 6-8 horsepower and provides a day's worth of fun.

This again?! Sigh...

Octane is a rating of when gasoline combusts. Higher octane ratings are needed for vehicles with higher compression ratios. Without adding a blower or increasing the compression, premium fuel and octane booster will NOT add horsepower. It won't make your engine run better, or burn cleaner. It will essential do nothing that 87 octane won't do. It won't hurt your engine, just your wallet.

Not necessarily. The highest octane stuff here is a denser fuel, resulting in a richer mixture per volume of charge. This is why bikes - especially carbutettor engines and those an open-loop ECU - see a power boost when running high octane fuel similar to running a slightly richer mixture. In Australia, this is 98 RON - in the USA it would probably be 94 octane. However I am unsure if the USA high-octane fuels have any difference in density.

Anyone running a Power Commander V with an Auto-Tune box will gain better fuel economy from high octane fuel, as the Auto-Tune is essentially a wideband oxygen sensor which will rapidly detect that the fuel mixture can be leaned some, due to the higher density of the fuel.


P.S. For anyone with a PC-V, an Auto-Tune *and* the ignition advance module (not available for VFRs) they can get better fuel economy and also more power, as the ignition can also be advanced automatically to suit the fuel's higher octane. This is basically how most car ECUs work, except they use narrowband oxygen sensors and take a long time to adjust the mixture. It's why you often need to run two tanks of high octane fuel through the car before it gets better mileage.

[image: View Post]kaldek, on 03 February 2010 - 09:21 PM, said:

Not necessarily. The highest octane stuff here is a denser fuel, resulting in a richer mixture per volume of charge. This is why bikes - especially carbutettor engines and those an open-loop ECU - see a power boost when running high octane fuel similar to running a slightly richer mixture. In Australia, this is 98 RON - in the USA it would probably be 94 octane. However I am unsure if the USA high-octane fuels have any difference in density.

The difference in fuel density is negligible here, if present at all.

Quote

P.S. For anyone with a PC-V, an Auto-Tune *and* the ignition advance module (not available for VFRs) they can get better fuel economy and also more power, as the ignition can also be advanced automatically to suit the fuel's higher octane. This is basically how most car ECUs work, except they use narrowband oxygen sensors and take a long time to adjust the mixture. It's why you often need to run two tanks of high octane fuel through the car before it gets better mileage.

Right, you can also advance your timing using a PCII, which would require higher octane fuel. You would still have to dial in the ignition advance. Autotune doesn't automatically adjust for fuel density (from temperature) and octane rating in real time to get you the most power, rather it works after the fact to get a more accurate fueling table.