Power Commander ineffective

Hello everyone. I have a 2007 RWB, that I recently installed a PC3 on. I did not know that the option of the PC5 was even available, (for an 09), at the time that I made the purchase. I have done some mods: 00 catless oem header (wrapped), airbox flapper, de snorkeled, 02 eliminators, Staintunes. The problem is that it doesn't seem to make a bit of difference what map I am using, and I think that I have used all applicable from this site, and the PC map from the PC website, the bike just surges its a$$ off between 3500 and 4200 rpm, in third gear, and sometimes fourth. You know, putting around town. It is especially bad after coming off of the freeway. Acceleration is awesome, Vtec transition is excellent! I pulled the front two spark plugs to have a look and they are nice and tan, which indicates a good mix. I commute on this bike everyday, rain or shine, and I live in the Pacific Northwest, so that means mostly rain! I pulled the wiring harnesses apart this morning, and they are dry. I also track this bike and I would really like to make this thing work. Or, the option is always there to sell the PC3 and buy a PC5? Any ideas or opinions? Thanks.

[image: View Post]Fattiremike, on 05 February 2010 - 01:22 PM, said:

Hello everyone. I have a 2007 RWB, that I recently installed a PC3 on. I did not know that the option of the PC5 was even available, (for an 09), at the time that I made the purchase. I have done some mods: 00 catless oem header (wrapped), airbox flapper, de snorkeled, 02 eliminators, Staintunes. The problem is that it doesn't seem to make a bit of difference what map I am using, and I think that I have used all applicable from this site, and the PC map from the PC website, the bike just surges its a$ off between 3500 and 4200 rpm, in third gear, and sometimes fourth. You know, putting around town. It is especially bad after coming off of the freeway. Acceleration is awesome, Vtec transition is excellent! I pulled the front two spark plugs to have a look and they are nice and tan, which indicates a good mix. I commute on this bike everyday, rain or shine, and I live in the Pacific Northwest, so that means mostly rain! I pulled the wiring harnesses apart this morning, and they are dry. I also track this bike and I would really like to make this thing work. Or, the option is always there to sell the PC3 and buy a PC5? Any ideas or opinions? Thanks.

2 things:
1. There really isn't a lot of torque available from 3500-4000 RPM. This will be the case no matter what you do. One solution is just not to cruise below 4,000 rpms. 4500-5000 RPM seems like a lot for a leisurely cruise, but it's really nothing for these engines. No matter what you do you'll have some lugging there. Is that what you mean by surging?

2. You could also try taking whichever map works best so far, and just adding a bit more fuel at the RPM's that feel like they are surging the most. The most popular map on here, Cozye's map, was made mostly by eduated guesswork and his seat-of-the-pants-o'meter. These bikes surge or have "snatchy" throttle because they are designed from the factory with certain lean points--to meet emissions standards. A little bit too lean is very bad, a little bit too rich just wastes fuel. I'm not saying richen it up to the point you're fouling your plugs, but when in doubt, err on the side of richness over leanness. You might be surprised what you can get by just adding a little bit of fuel.
Do you know how to edit a PCIII map? If not, post up and I can try to write out a little tutorial.

Hope this helps!

i'm gonna watch this one, wish i had something to offer for advice. i have one on my rwb with two bros. and man my fuel consumption is down to 30mpg, which irks me. anyway good luck i bet someone on here will have good advice.

I have an 06' and had a simular problem. I don't have the cat-less headers but this fix might work.

I would just make sure you are using O2 Eliminators.

I have the same issue on my bike. It's become less pronounced as I put more miles on the bike. I suggest keeping the revs higher in 3rd gear or shifting later in 2nd.
I try to keep it in around 5,000 RPM and then you don't notice the hesitation/lugging weirdness.

[image: View Post]hophead, on 05 February 2010 - 11:08 AM, said:

i'm gonna watch this one, wish i had something to offer for advice. i have one on my rwb with two bros. and man my fuel consumption is down to 30mpg, which irks me. anyway good luck i bet someone on here will have good advice.


I have a map for mine and I get 38-42mpg with the same setup.

Yep, I know how to modify a map. I have been doing so daily, it seems. Yes, I am using o2 eliminators. Right now, I am using Cozye's map for the 0-2-5-10% throttle range, all the way through from 0-12500 rpm. For the 20 through 100% range, I am using the M126-003 map from PC website. It works ok. I keep adding fuel to the 2 and 5% range, until I am down to like 30 mpg. It still surges. By surging, I mean lurches repeatedly and forcefully in about 1/2 second intervals, upon cracking the throttle, on flat ground. I am not lugging the engine. On flat ground, you should be able to be cruising along at 3500-4500 rpm, say 35-40 mph, in 3rd gear or so and just crack the throttle, to maintain speed. I could without the PC, and just O2 eliminators all day long. The main reason I bought this thing, is for the low end and the Vtec transition. I do alot of the Total Control type classes, (I am in the military and they are required), so I want to be able to have low end responsiveness. I have read here recently that the 06-09's are mapped by gear from Honda, like a PC5 and I am thinking that may be the problem. I am about to go and pull the PC off, and see if it still does it. I have used, and modified EVERY map on this website that is applicable to my bike, and a few that aren't. Nothing so far is getting rid of the surge, but some are better than others. I also am thinking of using Coderighters 3rd gear from his PC5, as I have copied and pasted it into my PC3 database. His third gear is not that much different than the M126-003 map, oddly enough, but it just might be enough. Thanks for the replies and ideas.

[image: View Post]Fattiremike, on 05 February 2010 - 02:41 PM, said:

Yep, I know how to modify a map. I have been doing so daily, it seems. Yes, I am using o2 eliminators. Right now, I am using Cozye's map for the 0-2-5-10% throttle range, all the way through from 0-12500 rpm. For the 20 through 100% range, I am using the M126-003 map from PC website. It works ok. I keep adding fuel to the 2 and 5% range, until I am down to like 30 mpg. It still surges. By surging, I mean lurches repeatedly and forcefully in about 1/2 second intervals, upon cracking the throttle, on flat ground. I am not lugging the engine. On flat ground, you should be able to be cruising along at 3500-4500 rpm, say 35-40 mph, in 3rd gear or so and just crack the throttle, to maintain speed. I could without the PC, and just O2 eliminators all day long. The main reason I bought this thing, is for the low end and the Vtec transition. I do alot of the Total Control type classes, (I am in the military and they are required), so I want to be able to have low end responsiveness. I have read here recently that the 06-09's are mapped by gear from Honda, like a PC5 and I am thinking that may be the problem. I am about to go and pull the PC off, and see if it still does it. I have used, and modified EVERY map on this website that is applicable to my bike, and a few that aren't. Nothing so far is getting rid of the surge, but some are better than others. I also am thinking of using Coderighters 3rd gear from his PC5, as I have copied and pasted it into my PC3 database. His third gear is not that much different than the M126-003 map, oddly enough, but it just might be enough. Thanks for the replies and ideas.


You say that you live in the Northwest and are military, so I'm guessing your location is pretty close to me. I live in Covington WA area, NE of Tacoma. If you like, I could take a look at it and see what we could figure out.

PM sent.

[image: View Post]Fattiremike, on 05 February 2010 - 03:22 PM, said:

PM sent.

You might want to put back the flapper and snorkel. One of the main reasons that they are there is to help maintain intake air speed at low engine RPM.

Unlike the fuel injection systems on automobiles, there is no air flow meter to help compensate for changes made to alter intake air flow at a given throttle opening. All the EMU knows is that a certain throttle opening lets a predetermined amount of air in.

Also, you didn't mention you had one, but if you have a speedometer corrector check out the following.

http://www.vfrdiscus...=1&#entry617886

Sounds like you know what you're doing, and the surging you describe really is NOT normal at all. Engine lugging is a NOT a forceful lurch like you describe. I guess I didn't quite understand, was this there before adding the PCIII?

[image: View Post]coderighter, on 05 February 2010 - 04:48 PM, said:

Also, you didn't mention you had one, but if you have a speedometer corrector check out the following.

http://www.vfrdiscus...=1&#entry617886

+1. This is the only other thing I can think of.

I think that Coderighter is on to something. I put a SH on at the exact same time that I put in the PC3! It is set at -11.4. Som B*&ch! I am just not clear on how to go about fixing it. If you could dumb it down for me, as to exactly hook it up, that would be great!

"I put a SH on at the exact same time that I put in the PC3! It is set at -11.4"
Whats an SH?

I'm very interested to see what catless will do for you w/PCIII

[image: View Post]PLCGuy, on 05 February 2010 - 05:56 PM, said:

"I put a SH on at the exact same time that I put in the PC3! It is set at -11.4"
Whats an SH?

I'm very interested to see what catless will do for you w/PCIII

SH = speedohealer.

Read this thread to see why it's causing him problems. This seems the most likely culprit.
http://www.vfrdiscus...=1&#entry617886

[image: View Post]Fattiremike, on 05 February 2010 - 05:18 PM, said:

I think that Coderighter is on to something. I put a SH on at the exact same time that I put in the PC3! It is set at -11.4. Som B*&ch! I am just not clear on how to go about fixing it. If you could dumb it down for me, as to exactly hook it up, that would be great!


The signal from the VSS (speed sensor) goes from the sensor runs forward to left fairing. There it splits with one leg going to the EMU, to be used for gear calculation. The other leg goes to the speedo. Where the Speedhealer (SH) is connected is before the split so you're changing the signal to both the speedo and the EMU. You need to re-wire the SH after the split, on the leg going to the speedo so that the EMU signal is not changed.

I did it just before the wire goes into the grey connector behind the fairing. The wire is pink (I seem to remember a gray stripe also). I have pictures but keep in mind that I'm also splitting off for the PCV speed input(pre-SH of course). If you look close at the photo with the gray connector, you'll see I sealed off the other end of the pink wire with liquid tape because it still has a signal on it. I tied the wire up all neat after the pictures.


http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/uploads/1244422226/gallery_15527_4691_201119.jpg
Speedo Correction Wiring at sensor plug location. Bottom left, sensor. Top left, Speedohealer. Right leading up, bike and new wire to speedo via gray connector in earlier pic.

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/uploads/1244422226/gallery_15527_4691_126880.jpg
Speedo Correction Wiring, left fairing. New wire attached to the pink lead going into grey connector

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/uploads/1244422226/gallery_15527_4691_122226.jpg
Speedo Correction Good mounting location.

By surging, I mean lurches repeatedly and forcefully in about 1/2 second intervals))))))))


Thats not really surging , thats called bucking

Surging is just a mild form of slight hesitation like running out of fuel, or slight lean issue, stock bikes MAY experience in that sustained 4500 rpm range.

Your modifications and map are not coordinating, escpecially with 30 mpg. I thought cozys map was for older model bikes, not 06 plus.

IMO try a performance shop that has the expertise to make a cusome map

Coderighter, you da man! I went out and zero'd my SH, and just got back from an hour of smooth, speedy bliss! Thanks so much! I owe you a beer or two! Thanks for posting the picks of how to hook it up, too! I do like having an accurate speedo. Thanks again!

[image: View Post]PLCGuy, on 05 February 2010 - 05:56 PM, said:

"I put a SH on at the exact same time that I put in the PC3! It is set at -11.4"
Whats an SH?

I'm very interested to see what catless will do for you w/PCIII


I really like the catless headers, although many will say that they don't really do anything for you, I like the fact that I lost 5 or so pounds from my bike. The stock exhaust cans I would guess weigh close to 20 pounds. Makes a big difference, and there's nothing like the sound of an un-baffled v-four @ 9000-12000 rpm.

Glad you got this figured out! :fing02:

You must have 98/99 headers though as 2000 headers had the CAT and was the first year of CAT & smaller tube headers for the VFR800. :unsure:

BR

[image: View Post]Fattiremike, on 05 February 2010 - 07:22 PM, said:

Coderighter, you da man! I went out and zero'd my SH, and just got back from an hour of smooth, speedy bliss! Thanks so much! I owe you a beer or two! Thanks for posting the picks of how to hook it up, too! I do like having an accurate speedo. Thanks again!


I think you'll find you can set it to a number greater (less negative) than -10 and not have a problem. That'll get the speedo a little closer until you get a chance to rewire.

[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 05 February 2010 - 08:45 PM, said:

Glad you got this figured out! :fing02:

You must have 98/99 headers though as 2000 headers had the CAT and was the first year of CAT & smaller tube headers for the VFR800. :unsure:

BR
Yeah, your right. I bought them from someone on this site about a year ago. I think that whoever I purchased them from said that they had been passed around members of VFRD for quite some time.

So, I went ahead and did the re-wire that Coderighter recommends, and let me tell you, it works! I tried creeping up on the -11.4% that I needed to correct the speedo, to see if I could get close without the re-wire. Well, at about -8% it starts to slightly surge. Well, that isn't good enough for me, so I went ahead and did the rewire. I now have a 99.9% accurate speedo, verified by GPS, and an EMU that doesn't know the difference. The bike is SOOOOOO happy! It took alot to cut into that pink wire, but I figured that I could put it all back to stock, if it didn't work! Thanks again, Coderighter!