Motorcycle Training worthless

Original article is HERE

In principle, I'm in favor of any type of training. Better than no training.

c

PS Wasn't this part of another thread?

http://www.vfrdiscus..._0

Training is all dependent on the trainee. If he or she doesn't wish to follow, utilize, practice or build on what is learned then all the training in the world for that individual would be useless.

[image: View Post]jasonsmith, on 22 April 2010 - 05:47 PM, said:

Training is all dependent on the trainee. If he or she doesn't wish to follow, utilize, practice or build on what is learned then all the training in the world for that individual would be useless.


Yes, of course, you're right and I agree, I modified my first post.

c

I think it is bizarre to imagine motorcycle training not helping. That's just ridiculous. Growing up riding dirt will always make you a better rider. The question is rather it will make you a safer rider.


That said, most people I know who have done a few trackdays/schools then proceed to drag knee around every corner they can, riding 2-3 times faster than they used to. Then, at some point they settle back down.

I think the "culture of speed" is somewhat to blame. Every new kid looks up to the guy riding on the street who "is fast" and has the scuffed up knee pucks and proceeds to do whatever they can to be like them.

Then there is the cruiser culture of "to tough to wear gear let's go have a breski" were it is the tough-guy who is idolized.


So, I don't know. I think this has always been the case and always will be. I think riding is actually safer now then it was back in the 70's and 80's, but it will always be dangerous no matter what you do.

Having been a motorcycle trainer for a local outfit I'd have to say it is useful but only for certain skills.
The provincial focus here in Alberta has been slow speed training, which is odd, since most accidents happen at speed.
I think it would be beneficial to have basic training combined with track-like training so people make better decisions at speed - ones that could potentially get them into trouble.
I witnessed one of the riders in my group of 'newbies' not know how to 'steer' his bike last year - it ended in a head on crash and about a year's worth of hospital visits and therapy. Could have been prevented with speed training.

my 2 cents.

I don't know what can overcome target fixation other than training. Nuff said, IMO.

My training by the MSF was very helpful...I knew how to ride, but really did not understand countersteering and agressive braking was also something that I had not done alot of. The most impressive thing about the training though was the instructor's advice..he told us all to ride like we were invisible to other motorist..this small piece of advice has saved my bacon a few times.

A lot of my friends think because they have training, that it's the end all to what they need to learn. Some just don't realize that training is only a guide to what you need to learn, you get training so you don't need to learn it the hard way. You still have to practice.

So in that regards, I think training helps. It shows you what you can, can't and shouldn't do so you don't need to find out the hard way. :laugh:

What I don't really see is Real training.
I mean when I took the BRC, it talked about traffic, scanning, predicting, even cultivating a certain level of paranoia, but there was zero, zip, nada when it came to real training on the bikes.
I mean the whole learn to ride in a parking lot is great for teaching low speed skills and reflexes, but what good is any of that when your traveling 60 mph down an interstate and a frigging Deer decides to commit suicide by jumping out of the median bushes and onto your front wheel???

They preach the risk management side of it, but I have never seen them teach it.

I don't even know how they could best go about teaching the mentality and skills needed to survive in the real world.

Good point Jes_VFR. I guess some things are just too dangerous to do in training?

I am an MSF Instructor, and we teach several different courses, based on the skill level of the student. Like previously mentioned, it does depend partly on the student to apply what they learned in class. As much as we may want to have deer prancing around on our ranges, this would send PETA up in arms, as well as being rather costly forthe students as far as repairs to their machines is concerned. I spent two years at Culinary School getting my degree, and was told from day one, that the school was there just to give us the basics, and an understanding of why we do what we do in the kitchens. I tell my students the same thing, as we will all experience different things depending on our skill level, and where as well as what we ride. There is no replacement for GOOD experience. It all depends on what you want to take away from the training. The report was also done by partners of the insurance companies. Does that strike you ass odd? They have access to lots of data, but they can also use that data to jack up rates when they want, if they so choose. Training is good, but the student has to know what to extract from the training, and the instructor has to be able to relate to the student as well. We just hosted an MSF Rider Coach Course here, and there one Rider Coach Candidate that did not graduate, could not relate to the students, and wasn't a good instructor. There are just way too many variables for me to say that training is not effective. Rant over, sorry.....

I think training and MSF courses make a world of difference. My advice to any new rider is "learn in the dirt", ride offroad first...one full season. I rode offroad from age 5 to age 21, never on a street bike. My first bike was an 85 VF500 interceptor.....with many, many years of off road riding I still was super cautious in city traffic (still am).....I think the danger is much higher on the street, I think its a silly place for a noob to learn.....I see uneasy, new riders trying to learn in the city and think OMG thats so scary, wrong place and often wrong bike. My friends like the silver VFR and want to learn , well I am glad to instruct but its gonna be on a TTR125 in a small dirt lot. Also I still ride pretty conservatively on the street (well not on a supermoto but on a VFR I go "semi'-slow, so what) with a big safety margin, offroad on cr500 I really put the hammer down and crash sometimes, just is much better crashing in dirt/grass than pavement. So YES, take classes, total noob...buy a dirtbike first.

There are several aspects to riding a motorcycle that you cannot get by dumb luck. They are counter intuitive techinques such as counter steering, trail braking techinque, gassing in turns (maintence throttle), resisting the temptation to chop throttle when the bike slides. This stuff takes practive and somebody to show you how to apply it, basic ideas SIPDE, eyes up, looking where you go, body postioning using your legs to grip the bike, loosening up on the handlebars to prevent road shock from being reintroduced to the chassis. Some of these things just dont present themselves as the obvious way to ride correctly only with training can you really understand and master these things.

Last year I decided to go back and start over. I bought a new bike and made a choice to try and improve/upgrade my riding. To complete this process I enrolled in the local MSF rider course - Free in Pennsylvania.

I own and have read books by Pat Hahn on riding correctly, Nick Ienatsch and Reg Pridmore on the performace side of things and Davids Hough's books on safe riding, too. Let's not forget Lee Parks. So, I did my homework and the course was great. I eventually went on to transfer some of the drills to an empty parking lot behind a giant industrial park that has no occupants. I'm sure the dots I painted on the blacktop will fade soon and I never got busted for trespassing on private property. And I never crashed.

All good. Except the arrogant and wise cracking MSF instructor who seem to enjoy feeding his own ego at the expense of the new comers. I knew what was going on most of the time, but his line of thought was often confusing and some of the people in the class suffered because of his attitude. Mostly the women. I learned to keep my head down and my mouth shut. The course was quite helpful and I learned a lot. But I'll never forget the idiot teacher who was so filled with his own self importance that he forgot about the really nice students in his care. Oh well.

I still practice a few panic stops now and then when conditions are safe. I can't make a really sharp low speed turn yet, like those State Police guys (on Harleys) at the BMW Catskills ride last year, but I'm working on it.

The MSF course was great - I would recommend it to everyone. And if you get a chance to steal some cones off the soccer coach for an afternoon of practice in an empty parking lot - that's even better. Oh yea - riding the pace seems like a good idea, too.

http://www.fjrowners.ws/pace.html

Brian

Training is not worthless, it's PRICELESS! I still go out in the spring an practice those slow speed drills and emergency stopping. You may think the slow speed stuff doesn't translate to the street but you would be wrong. Nothing forces you to "look where you want to go" better than the crazy 8 slow speed drill. Makes you actually move your entire head to look over your shoulder. If you don't you start looking down at the ground in front of you and you will fix-ate on the ground or something on the ground.

I also find that the slow drills really help me sharpen my counter steering skills. You got to exaggerate those counter moves the slower you go. And, if you really stop and think about it, most of the "offs" we hear about are slow speed offs or dumps in a parking lot or in traffic. We laugh those off and forget about hearing those stories because the one time you hear of someone having a bad crash, that's what you remember.

Kevin

It is the same as drivers ed for cars. Teaches you the basics, but Drivers Ed for cars doesn't teach you how to react at high speeds either. Training can not fix ignorance, immaturity, and bad decisions. If those were fixed (on all drivers, not just the ones on the bike) then a vast majority of all accidents would go away because the only ones left would be unavoidable hazards. Unfortunately, most learning comes with saddle time and reacting in real world driving. No amount of training can replace that.

Bollox - training is NOT worthless - and as others above have rightly said, it's about the willingness of the student to acquire knowledge. That said, most of us know that an MSF BRC course isn't going to set anyone up to be a seasoned veteran/GP racer in 1 or 2 sessions - it is however laying the foundation on which to pile on more knowledge and the vision required to hone one's skills. Without it, there isn't much of a platform to build on. I grew up riding dirt bikes and my dad also rode on the street, the training I got from him was priceless and has translated into me being a fairly capable rider. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely - because my mind has been "opened" I'm always hungry to learn more to protect my bacon and get more enjoyment out of the ride.

The caveat in this discussion is the fact that this "study" was done by the insurance industry, who DO NOT have anyone's best interests in mind - just their bottom line. For that matter, cage driver "training" in this country is ludicrous - drivers get the basics and are thrown out into the real world pie-eyed without any idea what to do in case of a real emergency - such as a skid, or to back off in inclement conditions, etc. etc. :beatdeadhorse: I say anything is better than nothing...

[image: View Post]JES_VFR, on 22 April 2010 - 11:24 PM, said:

What I don't really see is Real training.
I mean when I took the BRC, it talked about traffic, scanning, predicting, even cultivating a certain level of paranoia, but there was zero, zip, nada when it came to real training on the bikes.
I mean the whole learn to ride in a parking lot is great for teaching low speed skills and reflexes, but what good is any of that when your traveling 60 mph down an interstate and a frigging Deer decides to commit suicide by jumping out of the median bushes and onto your front wheel???

They preach the risk management side of it, but I have never seen them teach it.

I don't even know how they could best go about teaching the mentality and skills needed to survive in the real world.


I agree. The M$F does an OK job with n00bs and has a few good points.

I've yet to see many training programs that actually teach many meaningful bike control skills -there are a few, like that one that teaches flat-tracking skills on dirt bikes. Some of the track schools get into more useful skills as well but you have to take all the n00b classes to work up to get the good stuff. It's expensive and time consuming.

Nothing beats just getting a dirt bike and screwing around on the trails. A weekend riding a dirt bike off the road (and not just a gravel or dirt ROAD) is like a year or 3 riding a street bike. You learn so much more, and faster in the dirt.

I wouldn't say that formal training is useless -but nothing beats learning to slide a dirt bike. There just is no bullshitting mother nature and the laws of physics. In the dirt you either learn them or fall on your face. Paper learning is only good for passing paper tests. In the real world, it's not for crap.

I took the MSF course when I started riding. The things I learned there have helped me tremendously. Not just how to drive a motorcycle but how to survive on a motorcycle. How not to ride in blind spots, how to use lane positioning, what to do in panic situations, etc. Basically a lot of good habits that has developed into keeping me out of a lot of trouble with the hamsters obliviously yammering away in their cages. To say that training was useless means someone (no I didn't waste my time reading such ignorance) did no form of real research and is pushing an opinion...not fact.

Of course, the training you receive will only be as good as your instructor and your willingness to apply the training. Just reinstates the fact that some people shouldn't be allowed to operate vehicles and that the training standards need to be set much higher for the safety of everyone allowed to do so.

Dirt, dirt, dirt. I rode in the dirt for five years before I got a street bike. Not long after I got the street bike, I locked the rear wheel up in the rain. Instinctively, I let off of the rear brake and gently slowed down using the front brake. Had I not locked the rear up on my dirt bikes on numerous occasions, I'm sure that I would have wrecked the street bike.

Assume that you are invisible and you'll can avoid some, but not all, close calls and collisions.

Motorcycle training isn't useless, but the MSF basic course is far from comprehensive. Riding training doesn't end at MSF, there are track-day trainings, advanced rider trainings and other technique clinics. This August there's a Sport Touring clinic at Miller Motorsports, which I would like to attend to tune my skills.

Training matters. Ongoing training matters more.

I did a lot of research before I started riding; everything from helmet color (white has 20% fewer crashes than any other color) to where accidents occur in single and multi-vehicle crashes. Every study I have read indicates that riders with formal training are far less likely to be involved in a collision or fatality than riders with training.

I am also a MSF instructor and as you would guess, an advocate for training. Having said that, I just wanted to point out there are a variety of levels of training.. offered by MSF. The BRC--is a BASIC riding couse. Designed for newbies and returning riders. In addition to the BRC, the MFS offeres an ERC (Experienced Rider Course), a Sport Bike Course, and a new Street Smart course. These are designed to provide additional learning opportunites built on the foundations learned in the BRC. Can every possible street situation be simulated in these courses? Obviously not, but I beleive that offering more advance levels of training as your own skill level increases can't hurt! Just my $.02!

[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 23 April 2010 - 09:50 AM, said:

[image: View Post]JES_VFR, on 22 April 2010 - 11:24 PM, said:

What I don't really see is Real training.
I mean when I took the BRC, it talked about traffic, scanning, predicting, even cultivating a certain level of paranoia, but there was zero, zip, nada when it came to real training on the bikes.
I mean the whole learn to ride in a parking lot is great for teaching low speed skills and reflexes, but what good is any of that when your traveling 60 mph down an interstate and a frigging Deer decides to commit suicide by jumping out of the median bushes and onto your front wheel???

They preach the risk management side of it, but I have never seen them teach it.

I don't even know how they could best go about teaching the mentality and skills needed to survive in the real world.


I agree. The M$F does an OK job with n00bs and has a few good points.

I've yet to see many training programs that actually teach many meaningful bike control skills -there are a few, like that one that teaches flat-tracking skills on dirt bikes. Some of the track schools get into more useful skills as well but you have to take all the n00b classes to work up to get the good stuff. It's expensive and time consuming.

Nothing beats just getting a dirt bike and screwing around on the trails. A weekend riding a dirt bike off the road (and not just a gravel or dirt ROAD) is like a year or 3 riding a street bike. You learn so much more, and faster in the dirt.

I wouldn't say that formal training is useless -but nothing beats learning to slide a dirt bike. There just is no bullshitting mother nature and the laws of physics. In the dirt you either learn them or fall on your face. Paper learning is only good for passing paper tests. In the real world, it's not for crap.

for me, agree on all points but dirtbiking. i spent a day out on the trails of the Hills and it was .. meh. didn't learn much except to watch out for tree branches and animals. Now, track days.... THAT's a totally different matter. i learned more in one day than a butt-o-load of street riding miles. nothing like riding in the rain at 120+ and feel the bike move around a tad bit. or spin the tire trying to accel out of a turn..... learned a ton about being SMOOOOOTH!!!! i can NOT wait to go back!!! if i was close enough to a track and had a track whore, i'd probably give up street riding.

To many people just want to use the rear brake on a motorcycle, I was taught the front brakes have at least seventy percent of the stopping power on a bike and was taught how to use them by MSF BRC. Would not of learned that by myself more than likely. Still getting on myself for not signing up for the ERC course this year, did not ride thousand miles last year and want to take it every year. How did they break down the data with that, there are quite a few ways to interrupt data. Know this post is old but to me that is a totally asinine statement. Took BRC, ERC am glad I did.

Good training could save your life!
Poor training is a waste.
Dirt bike experience is better than bicycle training, but.. c'mon. Dirt is not street, nor highway.

Only real training from a real professional will make a real difference. The rest is window dressing, or more recently "lipstick on a pig".
Kudos to those who are trainers; I suspect that you have frustrations about not being able to instruct at more reasonable speeds. Good onya.

Myself, I got no formal training and passed my license exam on a 700-pound GS750. Did that prepare me for the street? NOT BLOODY LIKELY!
But, since then I have had no incidents that weren't mostly due to cager interference. Maybe we need a Motorcycle component to every car driver's exam!

I had to take then advance riders course due to a ticket. I think most the riders there, really needed to develope their slow speed control skills.

Defensive driving courses are $35 and a dime a dosen, recently they seem to require an MC course for motocycle which is double the cost and can be much harder to find. But it was basically 5 hour course and not too much talking. Sub 35mph tight cornering, left right left hard braking ect. A years worth of brake wear in one day.

I've taken MSF training and it was useful. There are good principles taught that are not all intuitive. I started on dirt bikes. Graduated to dual sports, and this VFR is my first real road worthy bike. It's a whole different animal (and I love it). Now when I ride now - even commuting - I try to self-evaluate and push to imprint more good habits into my riding skills. For me there is so much to learn; traffic management, braking skills, turn entries, even basics like covering the brakes properly. Every ride for me has to count for experience. I've thought about doing a track day just as way to get more coaching and some experience. And one of the replies in this thread mentioned a MSF Street Smart course that sounds like it might be interesting. Well add it to my list for the year. Ernie

[image: View Post]billyjackjimbob, on 23 April 2010 - 07:34 AM, said:

Training is not worthless, it's PRICELESS! I still go out in the spring an practice those slow speed drills and emergency stopping. You may think the slow speed stuff doesn't translate to the street but you would be wrong. Nothing forces you to "look where you want to go" better than the crazy 8 slow speed drill. Makes you actually move your entire head to look over your shoulder. If you don't you start looking down at the ground in front of you and you will fix-ate on the ground or something on the ground.

I also find that the slow drills really help me sharpen my counter steering skills. You got to exaggerate those counter moves the slower you go. And, if you really stop and think about it, most of the "offs" we hear about are slow speed offs or dumps in a parking lot or in traffic. We laugh those off and forget about hearing those stories because the one time you hear of someone having a bad crash, that's what you remember.

Kevin


I couldn't agree more. I do the same thing every so often at a nearby parking lot. I make a game out of how tight I can make U turns and figure 8's. I'm always surprised on group rides how many people can't maneuver within a 2 lane street (as when a turn off is missed). Check out the video of the Japanese police force riding competition on 5th gen VFR's. I'd bet they don't get much over 25 mph, but their bike handling skills are tremendous.

MC Competition

I'm positive that pro training has saved my skin in countless saves. It simply has no price.
I went through training in Ontario Canada, simply to get a guaranteed pass for licensing, and came out decades wiser. No kidding.

Getting some good coaching is the best way to improve skills and enjoy the ride more. Rossi, Nicky, etc, all have coaches that help them to reach their level and keep getting better.

If you really want to see an increase in your riding ability, come to Miller in Utah and take a Sport Touring class on the track :) amazing to watch the vfr/fjr/bmw/etc crowd making huge improvements in one day.

utahsba.com (shameless plug, hope it's ok to do that)

The MSF - BRC in my area is a 2-day affair on a Friday eve/Sat, rain or shine, and costs about $350. And you wonder why people don't take it in NY... :huh: If it was free, you can bet your ass I would have taken it at least once. Instead, I learned by trial and, umm, error... :blush:

[image: View Post]Cogswell, on 09 March 2011 - 01:10 AM, said:

[image: View Post]billyjackjimbob, on 23 April 2010 - 07:34 AM, said:

Training is not worthless, it's PRICELESS! I still go out in the spring an practice those slow speed drills and emergency stopping. You may think the slow speed stuff doesn't translate to the street but you would be wrong. Nothing forces you to "look where you want to go" better than the crazy 8 slow speed drill. Makes you actually move your entire head to look over your shoulder. If you don't you start looking down at the ground in front of you and you will fix-ate on the ground or something on the ground.

I also find that the slow drills really help me sharpen my counter steering skills. You got to exaggerate those counter moves the slower you go. And, if you really stop and think about it, most of the "offs" we hear about are slow speed offs or dumps in a parking lot or in traffic. We laugh those off and forget about hearing those stories because the one time you hear of someone having a bad crash, that's what you remember.

Kevin


I couldn't agree more. I do the same thing every so often at a nearby parking lot. I make a game out of how tight I can make U turns and figure 8's. I'm always surprised on group rides how many people can't maneuver within a 2 lane street (as when a turn off is missed). Check out the video of the Japanese police force riding competition on 5th gen VFR's. I'd bet they don't get much over 25 mph, but their bike handling skills are tremendous.

MC Competition


You have to crawl before you can walk, have to walk before you can run, just like that Total Control by Lee Parks, am sold on it and don't care if everything is taught in a parking lot.

I learned to ride by reading motorcycle magazines and gaining an understanding of how a bike works - the physics and mechanics of it. By the time I began riding, I was disappointed to find that there was not a single element of the BRC that was new information to me. I've been riding since 1985, and a couple of years ago some of my friends and I decided to take a dirt bike class just to augment our street skills. I learned a little in that class, but not much. In browsing the bios of the riding school's (they offer a full range of dirt and street classes, beginner and advanced) instructors though, I discovered that about 80% of the instructors had been riding for less than 5 years. I'd say probably 50% of the instructors had been riding for only about 2 years.

I was talking recently with a friend of mine who took the BRC a while back. She was starting from zero, and she picked it up naturally. The instructors told her she should get a year of riding experience and then come back as an instructor. To me, that kind of seems like the blind leading the blind. I don't think the BRC is adequate for putting new riders on the street, and I think new riders would benefit tremendously from having an instructor who has some real-world experience and knows what it's like to find gravel at speed in the middle of a blind turn on the edge of a mountain. Practice with low speed maneuvers may save you from a low speed drop, but those rarely cause more damage than just a little embarassment. The real trouble comes at greater-than-parking-lot speed.

[image: View Post]spassrader, on 09 March 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

Practice with low speed maneuvers may save you from a low speed drop, but those rarely cause more damage than just a little embarassment. The real trouble comes at greater-than-parking-lot speed.

And yet it's still better than nothing. :fing02:

I think if you really want to learn to ride a motorcycle start with a bicycle. I had years of 2 wheel experience before ever involving a motor and aside from learning the mechanics (gas, brake, clutch, etc) it was a natural transition for me. The MSF course I took just gave me basic survival skills and the confidence to handle the mechanics. The survival skills have saved me more than once so I consider it time well spent.

Some people are going to be able to learn on their own just fine and have years of motorcycling ahead of them. It's all the rest that benefit from some training...any training. My wife got coaching from both the MSF and from me and I only had 5 years riding time. But that was 5 years of year round, 10K miles a year riding time. She failed the MSF riding course the first time. After a few afternoons with me coaching her she aced it.

Life's too long to cut corners on learning to do something right. And when you do then it's too short. :goofy:

[image: View Post]spassrader, on 09 March 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

I learned to ride by reading motorcycle magazines and gaining an understanding of how a bike works - the physics and mechanics of it. By the time I began riding, I was disappointed to find that there was not a single element of the BRC that was new information to me. I've been riding since 1985, and a couple of years ago some of my friends and I decided to take a dirt bike class just to augment our street skills. I learned a little in that class, but not much. In browsing the bios of the riding school's (they offer a full range of dirt and street classes, beginner and advanced) instructors though, I discovered that about 80% of the instructors had been riding for less than 5 years. I'd say probably 50% of the instructors had been riding for only about 2 years.

I was talking recently with a friend of mine who took the BRC a while back. She was starting from zero, and she picked it up naturally. The instructors told her she should get a year of riding experience and then come back as an instructor. To me, that kind of seems like the blind leading the blind. I don't think the BRC is adequate for putting new riders on the street, and I think new riders would benefit tremendously from having an instructor who has some real-world experience and knows what it's like to find gravel at speed in the middle of a blind turn on the edge of a mountain. Practice with low speed maneuvers may save you from a low speed drop, but those rarely cause more damage than just a little embarassment. The real trouble comes at greater-than-parking-lot speed.


Define real world experience, how many years does it take to be qualify to be an instructor? It is supposed to give you a base of knowledge and skills, would it be fair to say, no matter the speeds, skills are cumulative? As far as gravel on a turn, if your on the outside of a turn instead of the inside of a turn, more of the road is visible and that is taught in BRC!! If I would of not taken that class, would not look as far ahead as I do now, period. Look at this link and tell me you can't learn something in a parking lot You can't learn anything in a parking lot, Good one!!

I am self taught. When I got my RD350 the shop owner took me out back and showed me where the controls were and had me ride down the back parking lot and back. Later that day I tried turning left at an intersection and found myself up against a curb. I self taught myself countersteering after that. When "Twist of the Wrist" came out I bought it and it made a lot of sense. I had a pretty successful stint 5 years later in WERA.

Several years ago my wife wanted to get a bike, she got a small Yamaha 4stroke dirt bike and rode it off road for a couple of years. I was her teacher.

When she wanted to get a road bike she decided to take a MSF course and wanted me to take it too. The first night she got into a gentle discussion with the instructor over him saying that a polycarbonate lens could take a shot gun blast at 10 feet. About 3 weeks before we had done an experiment and were able to penetrate polycarbonate lenses every time with 22 shorts at 40 feet.

In the end the instructor never forgave her for arguing with him and in the end wouldn't pass her. She never fell as two others in the class did, and were passed. She didn't knock over any cones. The grading system was never explained. She went over to the DMV and passed the test.

Overall the course gave basic skills. We still ride dirt more than road.

I would agree that it takes more than 5 years to know the ropes. I learn something about riding all the time even after 35 years.

[image: View Post]spassrader, on 09 March 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

.............. In browsing the bios of the riding school's (they offer a full range of dirt and street classes, beginner and advanced) instructors though, I discovered that about 80% of the instructors had been riding for less than 5 years. I'd say probably 50% of the instructors had been riding for only about 2 years...........

[image: View Post]apex, on 18 March 2011 - 08:48 AM, said:

In the end the instructor never forgave her for arguing with him and in the end wouldn't pass her.


One bad apple spoiling the barrel I guess. Just remember...in every group there's always one douche bag. Fortunately they tend to stay away from VFR's. :goofy:

This is a terrible misuse of statistics. To say that crashes are up 10% in states with training programs is worthless without also saying: 1. how much overall riding is up and 2. how much of an increase states without programs have seen.

Completely worthless.

[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on 18 March 2011 - 12:53 PM, said:

This is a terrible misuse of statistics. To say that crashes are up 10% in states with training programs is worthless without also saying: 1. how much overall riding is up and 2. how much of an increase states without programs have seen.

Completely worthless.


Posted Image Statistically speaking, statistics are the most abused tools that tools use to confuse the issues or make an absurd point. :491:

[image: View Post]vanion2, on 18 March 2011 - 12:57 PM, said:

Posted Image Statistically speaking, statistics are the most abused tools that tools use to confuse the issues or make an absurd point. :491:


"There are three things: lies, damn lies, and statistics." --Mark Twain.

A number of years ago, the MSF's highest-ranking executive actually resigned over the lack of statistics that can show that training is actually reducing accidents.

Collision data did show that rider training kept NEW riders from crashing, but once they had ridden for two years, their potential for crashing was the same as everyone else's (including people who had no training whatsoever). It's not that there isn't value in that, because otherwise we could expect more new riders to be injured and/or killed in their first two years of riding due to their lack of basic skils...but the irony of it is that you survive your first two years only to 'graduate' to the same level of risk as someone who never took a course at all.

If my kids decide to take up riding some day, I want them to take a course so they don't do something stupid that could have been avoided. But in the long run, their riding decisions will become more important than their riding skills.

And herein lies the greatest truth of all ~ forgetting the need to ride safe is the most dangerous thing you can do. And why all the training in the world isn't making the difference it should be.

The most you can do for a new rider is give them some clues about the things they don't know. Then it's all up to them if they want ride safer and seek more clues. I think it's our responsibility to the sport we love to make ourselves un obnoxious guides to those who are obviously new to the sport. Here's a clue. Guys sport riding in shorts and tennis shoes need something said to them.

I agree both that statistics are routinely taken out of context, and that rider training is valuable.
Just before I got my first serious street bike (a 1982 Seca 650), I took two courses back to back. The first was a road skills course designed to teach the basics of motorcycle operation, defensive driving, etc. and prepare new riders for the motorcycle license test (written and road). The course had both classroom and road components, though 80 percent was on the provided small displacement bikes. The second was an advanced traffic skills course, since I was going from riding dirt in the boonies to riding in big city traffic. After all these years, what I learned in each course kind of runs together (I can't remember in which class I learned what), but I still remember and use things I learned in those classes every time I ride. Things like always shoulder checking, riding like you're invisible to cagers (which, for the most part, you are), road position (depending on road configuration, traffic patterns, etc.), group riding, counter-steering, and so on.
One thing I used almost immediately seemed pretty silly at the time I was learning it. They had us ride in slow, large circles and practice reaching down, without taking our eyes off the road, to flip the fuel petcock from main to reserve. Not a month after taking the course, I was riding out to visit my parents through a long highway tunnel under a river (not sure why they didn't build a bridge...). In any case, it slopes down as you enter, levels out for a ways a long the river bottom, then climbs up the opposite bank. It's two lanes in each direction separated by a wall with no shoulders, no lane changing allowed, and a speed limit of 50 mph. I had either forgotten to check my gas or was purposely running on fumes because I was a student at the time and gas was always cheaper near my parents' place. In any event, I rode down into the tunnel and along the bottom, but as soon as I started to climb the opposite bank, the bike started to bog and turning the throttle only caused it to buck and surge. I quickly realized that I was out of gas and just as quickly experienced a moment of terror as I imagined the bike dying in the tunnel. If I didn't get hit by the car behind me, I would have at least caused a massive traffic tie-up as I blocked one lane while slowly pushing the bike up the steep incline to the south exit of the tunnel. Fortunately my rider training kicked in. I reached down for the fuel petcock (I had briefly practised on my Seca as the instructor recommended we do), flipped it to reserve, and powered up the incline all within a couple of seconds. The driver behind me probably wondered why I slowed slightly but that was all he would have noticed.
Another one that has probably saved my bacon several times is the tip about blind hills on two-lane roads: since you can't see what's coming, pull over to the right-hand tire track until you're over the crest. I don't know how many times cars or trucks have materialized hanging over the yellow line--particularly if the blind hill is before a corner--and only the fact that I'm in the right side of the lane has meant there was a comfortable space cushion between me and the oncoming road hog.

The BRC was valuable to me for the low speed practice when I first started riding. SInce then I "train" any time I ride with people that are more skilled and experienced than me. The first TMAC I went to I intentionally looked to ride with people better than me, thought I made sure they were going to ride a pace I could handle though still challenge me. I asked better riders to ride behind me and evaluate me, tell me what I was doing wrong, and give me advice on how to get better. I also watched the guys that were better than me. I learned a ton from guys like Keith, Jason, Will, and many others just by watching them and asking them to help me. I came away with significantly improved skills and confidence after just 3 days of riding at TMAC.

We should never stop training when we ride. Riding is like shooting in my opinion. You're either getting better or getting worse every time you do it. (And the more time you spend away from it the more your skills deteriorate) You are either getting better and learning more, breaking bad habits and forming new good ones, increasing confidence, and improving judgement and reaction times or you are ingraining bad habits and/or getting lazy and sloppy in your decision making and judgement and possibly getting overconfident or at least complacent with bad skills. I know a couple of riders who have been riding alot of years but they are overconfident in a weak skill set.

My 2 cents is training definitely matters and helps those who are serious about getting better and safer and is waste on people who are stupid or think they know enough or are good enough to handle anything.