It's all pretty much a statistics game. AKA........ BS.
I say that the MSF course is completely ineffective because it is not complete enough. They are missing one valuable part of training.
A new motorcyclist should be drug across the asphalt at 5 mph wearing only shorts. Then in a set of leathers that have been used in the same demonstration over and over again. This concept is never presented in the required curriculum and therefore the respect for the cheese grater is not present in most new riders.
As far as the ABS mandatory comments........ that is the worst type of statistics game. Up until recently ABS was only available on motorcycles that were marketed towards "smarter" riders. This has been discussed here before. Wait till a handful of squids get their hands on ABS CBR1000RRs before you make a claim like ABS should be mandatory.
BTW, I like knowing I have ABS on my viffer, but it will not guarantee that I don't crash.
I don't think mandatory training is the right answer. Like the article says, there's only so much you can do to control the environment. You can't stop another vehicle from crossing the double yellow, or running the light, or ramming into you, ect. Not so say that you can't develop skills to greatly help yourself when you get into a bad situation. I just don't think having a mandatory course will solve the problem. Those who are going to ride like idiots are going to wing the course, forget what they learned, and go back to popping wheelies during rush hour.
A new licensing system would probably do more than a mandatory safety course.
I think the ABS comments are misleading, the types of bikes ABS is available on are not the types of bikes most Squids target. Of course ABS bikes are going to have less accidents, as well as sport touring bikes, and true touring bikes. I'm sure a case can be made that there are less injury related accidents on goldwings. Reason being, I don't know one single teenager that says that is their choice of a first bike.
Helmets, while I think they help, I think it should be a choice. I don't get on my bike outside of my garage without mine on. But just like seatbelts, I think they should be the choice of the rider. Neither safety feature affects the safety of other drivers on the road.
I do like the safety course requirement to get a license. While it can't prepare you for everything it at least covers the basics. But it doesn't surprise me that accidents are up. I'm sure it makes every new young person feel they are more comfortable and experienced than they really are. The government can't be expected to make all decisions on what we can or can't do to prevent us from hurting ourselves. I see the benefits of some, but bottom line, more government takes us away from what really is supposed to make this land great.
in U.S. states where training programs are mandatory for young riders under the age of 21, crashes are up 10 per cent.
To think that this means safety courses are ineffective is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. This is completely useless without knowing how much overall riding is up. And the figures I've heard have been somewhere around 25%. If motorcycling is up more than 10% than the same data would show that safety courses are effective. Every study I have seen shows them to be. And how long of a time period are we talking here? This is a completely useless statistic clearly twisted to meet this guy's agenda.
Quote
Motorcycles with anti-lock brakes are 37 per cent less likely to be involved in fatal crashes.
Again, what is the demographic of the rider more likely to buy an ABS bike? Are they 37% less likely solely because of ABS, or because smarter, safer riders tend to buy ABS bikes. This guy needs to take a class on statistics.
I'm voting No. but only because a "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics" option isn't available.
The reason I posted it was because the Insurance industry sponsored the study.
They can 'skew' with the best, and it kind of could justify higher rates in their minds. :pinocchio:
Just an observation but, you American folks sure seem to be wary of the erosion of your rights and freedoms....
Maybe we Canadians can learn a lesson or two from you. :idea3:
Greg :fing02:
This is still being taken out of context..from the actual report:
The estimate corresponding to rider education (0.0971) was not statistically significant. However, contrary to the intent
of training laws, it suggests a 10 percent increase in collision claim frequencies for riders younger than 21 in states where
they are subject to an education requirement. The lack of statistical significance means it cannot be said with confidence
that the collision claim frequencies of riders subject to a state education requirement actually are more likely to crash
than riders of a similar age. However, if the increase is in fact real, one potential explanation might be that in some states,
a participant is fully licensed upon completion of a course. This could, in practice, shorten the holding period for the permit
and hasten riding.
It is important to emphasize that this analysis does not answer the question of whether riders who voluntarily take rider
education courses have higher or lower crash risk. To conduct that analysis, HLDI would need to know which rated drivers
(riders) had training and which did not. This is not a data element currently in the HLDI database.
[image: View Post]Veefer Madness, on 22 April 2010 - 11:10 AM, said:
Just an observation but, you American folks sure seem to be wary of the erosion of your rights and freedoms....
Maybe we Canadians can learn a lesson or two from you. :idea3:
Greg :fing02:
Yes many of us are, not to turn your thread into a political debate, but it is like giving a kid candy then taking it away before they get a chance to enjoy it all. We are losing more and more of our freedom every year. Working very close to becoming 100% government. :offtopic:
I believe the majority of motorcycle deaths are suicides. Freedom loving people just cannot take the direction this country is going in any longer. (I was being facetious, but now that I've said it, maybe I'm on to something!)
[image: View Post]Veefer Madness, on 22 April 2010 - 11:10 AM, said:
Just an observation but, you American folks sure seem to be wary of the erosion of your rights and freedoms....
Maybe we Canadians can learn a lesson or two from you. Posted Image
Greg Posted Image
Thank you for the post! You've given me hope! Posted Image
I am not sure that mandatory training is the right answer either. However, mandatory training, if done right, and combined with education, is the best way I know to make better riders overall.
Chev, I like your idea to drag people on the pavement wearing only shorts and then leathers. Should be effective... :( On the plus side, I like the idea of being able to learn to ride different motorcycles during a training school like many schools provide and be able to pick the one you like best, something you don't really get to do in the real world, especially at the beginning.
Posted Image
I was driving 300-400+ HP muscle cars before I was 16, and the only training I had was classroom and behind-the-wheel drivers ed. It was good training, even if it was for only one semester. Most of us back then took pride in learning how to handle a car, knowing its limits, and knowing the Rules-of-the-Road inside out and upside down.
We also learned how to tear a car apart and put it back together again, swap out engines and transmissions, and soup up our babies. It was total immersion.
We raised hell and took a lot of chances, as young people are prone to do, and some of us died or were maimed, but very few (I lost more freinds in Viet Nam). We took the time to learn, sometimes the hard way, but most of us made it through.
Government wasn't in the picture at all, except for the initial driver's test. Our parents, teachers, local LEOs (who gave you a break in those days for being a stupid kid - and I pulled some award winning bonehead stunts, to be sure), and our peers taught us all we needed to know and kept us pointed in the right direction. We grew up fast and learned responsibility early.
And all this has carried over into my later life entry into motorcycling. And I believe I'm better and safer for it.
We don't need government and a bunch of rules and regulations to tell us what to do and how to behave if we are brought up right in an involved, healthy, loving, and supportive two-parent family. We owe that to our kids, and to other kids who aren't so fortunate.
its crap.. pure crap..
i was a backseat middle passenger in a 25 mph crash aginst a tree, 2 people died!!!! :pissed:
on the flip side.. i crashed many times over 100 mph... topping out about 173 and aside from a few scars where the leather got shredded i have nothing to show for the crash...
i have crashed my BICYCLE ,, and got a broken ankle,knee,5 ribs,wrist,coar bone, broken jaw chipped teeth and a fractured skull.. thats ONE crash.. at least the nurses were cute. :wub:
in any case.. i have a feeling they are only counting as hitting something as a crash.. no low sides or highsides or falling off during a wheelie..
simple put..we will NEVER have an accurate survey..
"how many times have you crashed your bike??"
umm are you counting riding only?? adding all the times i have shown off in the parking lot on a crash beater? practice bike for wheelies? thats one been dropped a few 100 times alone.. thats why it has crash bars..DUH!
things hit? i have only crashed while hitting something (other than the ground) and that was at 3 mph..a dickhead who doesnt understand a YEILD sign doesnt mean STOP.. i bumped his bumper.. broke the upper triple on an 86vfr700..
didnt die that time either!! :blink:
is this counting dirtbike? 4 wheelers?couse if it does..the artical says i should have died a few thousand times...
oh.. i noticed it doesnt mention knowing AKIDO in there... knowing how to fall and roll may have made a huge difference..i hit a bump as was flung for a high sider..and with out thinking (the 15 hours aweek akido kicked in) my right arm shot out. my head tucked and i did a 45 mph breakroll.. i got home later and looked at the back of my leathers i had a perfect line down my right arm, across my back down the left leg..text book akido / <<<< that shape.
i was so proud i took it to show instructor who showed the class. "practice does NOT make perfect..PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT.. and it this case ..was perfect"
I cant' say I'm for mandatory training beyond the basic drivers ed that we all take. However, I do believe that a graduated licensing program would yield tremendous benefit. You have to walk before you can run, and you have to fly a puddle jumper before you take the controls of a fighter. The best teacher is experience and it takes experience to properly operate powerful and/or heavy bike.
[image: View Post]Earthshake, on 22 April 2010 - 12:47 PM, said:
I cant' say I'm for mandatory training beyond the basic drivers ed that we all take. However, I do believe that a graduated licensing program would yield tremendous benefit. You have to walk before you can run, and you have to fly a puddle jumper before you take the controls of a fighter. The best teacher is experience and it takes experience to properly operate powerful and/or heavy bike.
Putting 160 hp/ 400 lb bikes into the hands of a beginner is always a recipe for trouble. I see the problem but not a solution.
and you'll see that they compared ABS and non-ABS models of each bike, eliminating the issue you raise. See table 2 in particular, where of 13 models listed, only two showed higher fatal crash involvement rates for the ABS model. Interestingly enough, those two models were the VFR and the ST1300.
[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on 22 April 2010 - 01:01 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Earthshake, on 22 April 2010 - 12:47 PM, said:
I cant' say I'm for mandatory training beyond the basic drivers ed that we all take. However, I do believe that a graduated licensing program would yield tremendous benefit. You have to walk before you can run, and you have to fly a puddle jumper before you take the controls of a fighter. The best teacher is experience and it takes experience to properly operate powerful and/or heavy bike.
Putting 160 hp/ 400 lb bikes into the hands of a beginner is always a recipe for trouble. I see the problem but not a solution.
Not disagreeing with you, but what about a cage? Putting a beginner in a 4,000 lb. 300 HP automobile can do a hell of a lot more damage to others than a 400 lb. motorcycle. Should they start with a Mini Cooper and build from there? Asking for more regulation is a slippery slope. We already suffer under way too much, and it's getting worse every day. Being free has a price, and somtimes a steep one. Still, I'd rather be free.
Your statements are uninformed contradictions. You can't say on one hand that you had "classroom and behind-the-wheel drivers ed" - this would be an "evil" school = school board = state = government mandate (last time I checked, the government gets it's money from taxes), which over the past years, has been determined to cost too much because obviously the dollar per life saved was just too high. So, the Government was obviously in the picture, and is probably one of the reasons you are still alive. Your personal skill may or may not have had much to do with it, the training however caused the thinking to help yourself. The other obvious difference is you didn't have an airbag in front of you, that ratchets up the risk level a little.
If you are so concerned with too much government oversight, then move to west Africa. That economy is purely "market" driven, maybe you'll enjoy it better there.
[image: View Post]Knife, on 22 April 2010 - 12:14 PM, said:
Posted Image
I was driving 300-400+ HP muscle cars before I was 16, and the only training I had was classroom and behind-the-wheel drivers ed. It was good training, even if it was for only one semester. Most of us back then took pride in learning how to handle a car, knowing its limits, and knowing the Rules-of-the-Road inside out and upside down.
We also learned how to tear a car apart and put it back together again, swap out engines and transmissions, and soup up our babies. It was total immersion.
We raised hell and took a lot of chances, as young people are prone to do, and some of us died or were maimed, but very few (I lost more freinds in Viet Nam). We took the time to learn, sometimes the hard way, but most of us made it through.
Government wasn't in the picture at all, except for the initial driver's test. Our parents, teachers, local LEOs (who gave you a break in those days for being a stupid kid - and I pulled some award winning bonehead stunts, to be sure), and our peers taught us all we needed to know and kept us pointed in the right direction. We grew up fast and learned responsibility early.
And all this has carried over into my later life entry into motorcycling. And I believe I'm better and safer for it.
We don't need government and a bunch of rules and regulations to tell us what to do and how to behave if we are brought up right in an involved, healthy, loving, and supportive two-parent family. We owe that to our kids, and to other kids who aren't so fortunate.
You're picking nits. The vehicles were donated by local auto dealers. The education was funded with tax dollars. Government doesn't create anything, let alone wealth; government seeks to control. And my beef is with big government, not small local governments who so far by and large merely seek to serve.
[image: View Post]thereisnospoon, on 22 April 2010 - 03:24 PM, said:
Your statements are uninformed contradictions. You can't say on one hand that you had "classroom and behind-the-wheel drivers ed" - this would be an "evil" school = school board = state = government mandate (last time I checked, the government gets it's money from taxes), which over the past years, has been determined to cost too much because obviously the dollar per life saved was just too high. So, the Government was obviously in the picture, and is probably one of the reasons you are still alive. Your personal skill may or may not have had much to do with it, the training however caused the thinking to help yourself. The other obvious difference is you didn't have an airbag in front of you, that ratchets up the risk level a little.
[image: View Post]Knife, on 22 April 2010 - 12:14 PM, said:
Posted Image
I was driving 300-400+ HP muscle cars before I was 16, and the only training I had was classroom and behind-the-wheel drivers ed. It was good training, even if it was for only one semester. Most of us back then took pride in learning how to handle a car, knowing its limits, and knowing the Rules-of-the-Road inside out and upside down.
We also learned how to tear a car apart and put it back together again, swap out engines and transmissions, and soup up our babies. It was total immersion.
We raised hell and took a lot of chances, as young people are prone to do, and some of us died or were maimed, but very few (I lost more freinds in Viet Nam). We took the time to learn, sometimes the hard way, but most of us made it through.
Government wasn't in the picture at all, except for the initial driver's test. Our parents, teachers, local LEOs (who gave you a break in those days for being a stupid kid - and I pulled some award winning bonehead stunts, to be sure), and our peers taught us all we needed to know and kept us pointed in the right direction. We grew up fast and learned responsibility early.
And all this has carried over into my later life entry into motorcycling. And I believe I'm better and safer for it.
We don't need government and a bunch of rules and regulations to tell us what to do and how to behave if we are brought up right in an involved, healthy, loving, and supportive two-parent family. We owe that to our kids, and to other kids who aren't so fortunate.
[image: View Post]Knife, on 22 April 2010 - 03:10 PM, said:
Not disagreeing with you, but what about a cage? Putting a beginner in a 4,000 lb. 300 HP automobile can do a hell of a lot more damage to others than a 400 lb. motorcycle. Should they start with a Mini Cooper and build from there? Asking for more regulation is a slippery slope. We already suffer under way too much, and it's getting worse every day. Being free has a price, and somtimes a steep one. Still, I'd rather be free.
You can't solve stupidity with regulations, but it's equally ridiculous to think all regulations are an intrusion into our freedom. In a sense, we had graduated licensing in Texas in 1972. You could get a license to ride a 100cc or less bike when you were 15, which I did. It offered the freedom for me to legally ride on the street, which I could not have done otherwise for another year. It taught me to handle a bike that would not get me into trouble with its sheer power, although I was still free to get into trouble through my own stupidity.
[quote name='Knife' date='22 April 2010 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1271967004' post='701124']
Putting 160 hp/ 400 lb bikes into the hands of a beginner is always a recipe for trouble. I see the problem but not a solution.
[/quote]
Not disagreeing with you, but what about a cage? Putting a beginner in a 4,000 lb. 300 HP automobile can do a hell of a lot more damage to others than a 400 lb. motorcycle. Should they start with a Mini Cooper and build from there? Asking for more regulation is a slippery slope. We already suffer under way too much, and it's getting worse every day. Being free has a price, and somtimes a steep one. Still, I'd rather be free.
[/quote]
Right. The stereotypical 18 year old male on a literbike is a serious danger to himself. The 16 year old talking on her cell phone in her new BMW is a danger to me.
I'm not disagreeing with you. That's why I said I see the problem, but not a solution. To be truly free means to have the freedom to kill or injure ourselves at a cost to everyone.
But now we're WAY off topic and going too far into political territory.
Back on topic, what I know we can do is encourage others who are starting out to get and continue good training, and good practice of safe riding techniques. All the data I've seen prior to this (and I still firmly hold that this data is completely irrelevant and useless without taking other factors into account) strongly indicates that taking an MSF course does reduce one's chances of being seriously hurt. When I encounter new riders, I'm happy to give a few pointers, and the first is always to take an approved safety course.
As far as I know, there are no state or federal laws making training illegal. Anyone can get it if they want to and are not banned by law from doing so.
The same goes for ABS and helmets. No law forbids riders from wearing a helmet or for buying a bike that is equipped with ABS. If you want them, go buy them.
Let's keep it that way. I'd help you fight any law that forbid a rider from getting education, wearing a helmet, or from buying and ABS system.
Would you kindly do me the same courtesy if I don't want them? Keep your damn laws off of my body and my bike please.
[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 22 April 2010 - 04:58 PM, said:
As far as I know, there are no state or federal laws making training illegal. Anyone can get it if they want to and are not banned by law from doing so.
The same goes for ABS and helmets. No law forbids riders from wearing a helmet or for buying a bike that is equipped with ABS. If you want them, go buy them.
Let's keep it that way. I'd help you fight any law that forbid a rider from getting education, wearing a helmet, or from buying and ABS system.
Would you kindly do me the same courtesy if I don't want them? Keep your damn laws off of my body and my bike please.
I cannot confirm which state it was, but there was one state a few years ago that decided to require a training class before getting a motorcycle endorsement.
And the number of people riding without a license skyrocketed, because the rider training infrastructure was not in place to accommodate all of the people who wanted to get a motorcycle endorsement. They would register for a class, and wait for many many months, and just go ahead and ride anyway in the interim - without training, or a license (or the test for the license that would confirm whether or not they knew their basics), etc.
IMHO, that's not a solution either.
Until recently, I was not aware of any US states that had a graduated license/endorsement. However, in just the last couple of weeks I read that Utah does - their web page is here. I found that interesting; I wonder how long that has been in place, and what effect that has had on their collision statistics.
[image: View Post]vfrcapn, on 23 April 2010 - 01:25 AM, said:
[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 22 April 2010 - 04:58 PM, said:
Would you kindly do me the same courtesy if I don't want them? Keep your damn laws off of my body and my bike please.
As long as it doesn't cost me any more $, do whatever you like.
The costs to you of the ever increasing and controlling nanny state already far exceeds any costs you would incur as a result of some idiot riding a motorcycle without a helmet. No offense, but your beautiful nanny state is about bankrupt as a result of all this nonsense, is it not?
[image: View Post]Knife, on 23 April 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:
The costs to you of the ever increasing and controlling nanny state already far exceeds any costs you would incur as a result of some idiot riding a motorcycle without a helmet. No offense, but your beautiful nanny state is about bankrupt as a result of all this nonsense, is it not?
[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 22 April 2010 - 04:58 PM, said:
As far as I know, there are no state or federal laws making training illegal. Anyone can get it if they want to and are not banned by law from doing so.
The same goes for ABS and helmets. No law forbids riders from wearing a helmet or for buying a bike that is equipped with ABS. If you want them, go buy them.
Let's keep it that way. I'd help you fight any law that forbid a rider from getting education, wearing a helmet, or from buying and ABS system.
Would you kindly do me the same courtesy if I don't want them? Keep your damn laws off of my body and my bike please.
Have you tried to buy a new small motorcycle lately? Notice how many small bikes are available in countries that have graduated licensing, that aren't available here? I know you don't believe in buying new bikes, but if no one is buying the new small bike now, then that used small bike isn't going to be available later. There's money to be made by pushing people onto bigger bikes quicker. And even the people who'd like to choose the more sensible small bike often can't find one, so they buy the big bikes too.
I look at the poor availability of small bikes in the USA. I look at the poor availability of riding gear in women's tall sizes. I look at how rare helmets are, when I ride in states that don't require them. I'll choose a helmet for myself every time, but would I have that choice, without all these helmet law states? The market might not choose to provide helmets, if the law didn't provide a lot of customers. Would my choice to wear a helmet put me in a freakish minority, unsupported by the market, the way my size does for riding gear?
Graduated licensing might not be the answer, but what is?
[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on 22 April 2010 - 10:47 AM, said:
Quote
in U.S. states where training programs are mandatory for young riders under the age of 21, crashes are up 10 per cent.
To think that this means safety courses are ineffective is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. This is completely useless without knowing how much overall riding is up. And the figures I've heard have been somewhere around 25%. If motorcycling is up more than 10% than the same data would show that safety courses are effective. Every study I have seen shows them to be. And how long of a time period are we talking here? This is a completely useless statistic clearly twisted to meet this guy's agenda.
Quote
Motorcycles with anti-lock brakes are 37 per cent less likely to be involved in fatal crashes.
Again, what is the demographic of the rider more likely to buy an ABS bike? Are they 37% less likely solely because of ABS, or because smarter, safer riders tend to buy ABS bikes. This guy needs to take a class on statistics.
I'm voting No. but only because a "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics" option isn't available.
37% less on ABS is prob. more based on what types of bikes have ABS. typically they're not super sports and Harleys (stunts and drunks) this article doesn't say who's at fault either, I bet disctracted cagers are more to blame for the increase, from cell phones and texting.
[image: View Post]Knife, on 23 April 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:
[image: View Post]vfrcapn, on 23 April 2010 - 01:25 AM, said:
[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 22 April 2010 - 04:58 PM, said:
Would you kindly do me the same courtesy if I don't want them? Keep your damn laws off of my body and my bike please.
As long as it doesn't cost me any more $, do whatever you like.
The costs to you of the ever increasing and controlling nanny state already far exceeds any costs you would incur as a result of some idiot riding a motorcycle without a helmet. No offense, but your beautiful nanny state is about bankrupt as a result of all this nonsense, is it not?
A brain injury could easily cost several million dollars in medical and rehabilitation costs.
[image: View Post]Ryanme17, on 24 April 2010 - 12:28 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Knife, on 23 April 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:
[image: View Post]vfrcapn, on 23 April 2010 - 01:25 AM, said:
[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 22 April 2010 - 04:58 PM, said:
Would you kindly do me the same courtesy if I don't want them? Keep your damn laws off of my body and my bike please.
As long as it doesn't cost me any more $, do whatever you like.
The costs to you of the ever increasing and controlling nanny state already far exceeds any costs you would incur as a result of some idiot riding a motorcycle without a helmet. No offense, but your beautiful nanny state is about bankrupt as a result of all this nonsense, is it not?
A brain injury could easily cost several million dollars in medical and rehabilitation costs.
Yes, and soon to be covered under Obamacare, which comes directly out of your pocket, so thank you for making my point for me.
I voted yes on training since there wasn't an option for just being tested.
As for me, I feel that there are a few things that can be learned from other peoples experience. There's a few books out that work on how to ride on public roads ie;"More Proficient Motorcycling", by David L. Hough. It gets into what to look for and how to deal with different things that are always coming up while riding. It's way better than having to learn it by screwing up ourselves. Then there are books that let us work on how to control our bikes better "On the public roads" ie;"Total Control", by Lee Parks. This type of book gets into things like the line of travel choice being different from track to public road, plus a ton of how to control a mc. Last but not least is "pace".
Some where you have to get on a bike and learn how to get from point A-to-B. Dirt bike riding would be at the top of my list.
As far as a mandatory public road driving training/test is concerned, I'm in favor of people having to take a standardized class/test. The reason I'm in favor of it is from driving/riding in the UK for over 3 years, it's amasing the difference between what goes on here in the U.S., verses the UK. ie; simple things like making a turn at an intersection in the UK they stay in the correct lane, while over here they will end up anywhere. Congruency is the key.
By all means go for any advanced training you would like. I don't know how I lasted as long as I did on a bike before I took Keith Code's 3 day class in the mid 80's.... And going to track days in Colorado a few times a year... Am I a knee dragger, no, but on track days I've been close enough to suit me while being on "MY" limits of control...
[image: View Post]Knife, on 23 April 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:
[image: View Post]vfrcapn, on 23 April 2010 - 01:25 AM, said:
[image: View Post]Serenity_VFR, on 22 April 2010 - 04:58 PM, said:
Would you kindly do me the same courtesy if I don't want them? Keep your damn laws off of my body and my bike please.
As long as it doesn't cost me any more $, do whatever you like.
The costs to you of the ever increasing and controlling nanny state already far exceeds any costs you would incur as a result of some idiot riding a motorcycle without a helmet. No offense, but your beautiful nanny state is about bankrupt as a result of all this nonsense, is it not?
Two different issues...so I should only care about MC related issues if the cost exceeds what my current state is wasting through other programs? Until the CA pension system is reformed, for example, I shouldn't care what I pay for insurance? :unsure:
Thank you for referring to it as a beautiful state, which it is, with so many beautiful MC roads. :woohoo: And I say that as a Pennsylvanian born 'n bred. :fing02:
Would somebody care to get in touch with MSF and ask them what the numbers say in regard to what percentage of their students, who take the BRC vs students who do not take the BRC, are less likely to be involved in an accident.
Then get back to to the debate with some information that might be relevant.
Australia has had graduated motorcycle licencing for decades - 12 months on a sub-600cc bike (some of the serious performance ones like RGV250 are excluded) then you do a final test for your open licence.
It seems to work. Fatalities have gone up over the last 5-10 years, but a) so have rider numbers, and b) the bloody nonces that come up with the stats also include off-road* and pillion fatalities in with the road riders, so the stats are not completely indicative.
The other positive about the tiered licencing scheme is that you learn about corner speed while on your 250 :fing02:
* on average, six or seven of the top ten bikes on volume count that sold annually in Australia, are off-roaders
Regarding mandatory training: does anyone know how training in the US is currently funded? Each state has their own program (or not) and the funding comes from additional revenues placed on registered machines or licensed riders. Very seldom does it come from the general coffers of the state. In Tennessee, we train less than 10% of new riders (per licenses issued) and even fewer experienced riders. However, classes are filled every weekend. If training were mandatory, there would not be enough classes to support it. Ultimately, many new riders would not get the opportunity for training or their wait would be extensive.
I already don't trust states to run these programs. I can't see any good come from well meaning legislators making training mandatory. There could be more unlicensed riders and the training community would be unable to keep up with demand.
Now, as to training effectiveness even the MSF recognizes that it's not what it could be and have started an overhaul of the curricula. The challenge will be to get riders new and old as well as the trainers to change their paradigm from the current beginner and experienced classes to these more comprehensive offerings:
Keep the government out of it. If you want mandatory training, how about mandatory parent training instead. No kids for you unless you pass. Parenting license becomes mandatory nationwide. At least that would have a measurable effect nationally.
[image: View Post]shrek, on 30 June 2010 - 11:32 PM, said:
Keep the government out of it. If you want mandatory training, how about mandatory parent training instead. No kids for you unless you pass. Parenting license becomes mandatory nationwide. At least that would have a measurable effect nationally.
Both are recipes for failure.
So no training at all, give a 16 year old the keys to a gixxer 1K and wish him well?
[image: View Post]shrek, on 30 June 2010 - 11:32 PM, said:
Keep the government out of it. If you want mandatory training, how about mandatory parent training instead. No kids for you unless you pass. Parenting license becomes mandatory nationwide. At least that would have a measurable effect nationally.
Both are recipes for failure.
Although you were being sarcastic, I'd support mandatory parenting training and licensing. If you're deemed unfit, you are denied a child-bearing license. There are so many crappy parents out there. It's harder to adopt a dog from a rescue (home checks, etc.) than to have a child (have sex).
Anyway, I find it funny when people say they want the government out of their lives, but utilize so may services and infrastructure. :blink: Don't want the government in your life, don't drive on public roads for starters.
[image: View Post]vfrcapn, on 30 June 2010 - 11:36 PM, said:
[image: View Post]shrek, on 30 June 2010 - 11:32 PM, said:
Keep the government out of it. If you want mandatory training, how about mandatory parent training instead. No kids for you unless you pass. Parenting license becomes mandatory nationwide. At least that would have a measurable effect nationally.
Both are recipes for failure.
So no training at all, give a 16 year old the keys to a gixxer 1K and wish him well?
Absolutely. It won't be MY 16 year old on there. If his parents are so stupid or disinterested in the kids well being that they allow him on a liter bike...fair thee well junior.
Government already has too much control. The furthest I'd go is a graduated licensing system similar to what already exists (and works) in much of the rest of the world. But the idea that I want the government to be responsible for the safety of my children should they desire to follow in dear-old-Dad's tire tracks is absurd. The government screws up everything it touches.
[image: View Post]jaimev34, on 01 July 2010 - 12:01 AM, said:
[image: View Post]shrek, on 30 June 2010 - 11:32 PM, said:
Keep the government out of it. If you want mandatory training, how about mandatory parent training instead. No kids for you unless you pass. Parenting license becomes mandatory nationwide. At least that would have a measurable effect nationally.
Both are recipes for failure.
Although you were being sarcastic, I'd support mandatory parenting training and licensing. If you're deemed unfit, you are denied a child-bearing license. There are so many crappy parents out there. It's harder to adopt a dog from a rescue (home checks, etc.) than to have a child (have sex).
Anyway, I find it funny when people say they want the government out of their lives, but utilize so may services and infrastructure. :blink: Don't want the government in your life, don't drive on public roads for starters.
So your premise is that if you're deemed unfit you're denied a parenting license and therefore cannot breed. How were you going to enforce that? Just like the 18 year old kid that walks into a Yamaha dealership and rides out on a brand new R1 without an M1 endorsement? I dare you to make a person with poor decision making skills succeed at celibacy. Perhaps forced sterilization or mandatory abortions? That sounds just like Mao's China. The dichotomy that you describe is indicative of the dysfunction of American society. We like cute and fuzzy animals more than human children. Parent licensing would be unnecessary if welfare and other paternalistic social engineering science projects did the only fair thing and didn't exist. There would be a lot fewer unwanted babies running around if the mothers of those kids knew absolutely, before the birth of those babies, that the government would not feed them, nor pay for their mothers to be baby factories. This type of poor decision maker need better access to abortion and other family planning services, so that when it happens they have an unstigmatized easy out.
I take umbrage with your stance that because I want limited government that I should only drive on private roads. One of the only genuine purposes of government is to provide the infrastructure that is necessary and proper for the function of interstate and intrastate commerce. Why else would we pay taxes? So that social programs can flourish? Yours is odd logic.
still to this day I learn a few things. About my riding, others riding and their skill and how much I am scared to death of trying to let some people lead that shouldn't.
As a youth, my uncle egged me on to ride, and he watched me rail it... on a dirt bike...
Dirt should be first and foremost IMHO.
Just like some people that ride need a place to learn, they also need a good instructor.
Not always does life need to be learned the hard way. Sometimes learning the hardway is the worst way.
I am always taking one person out at a time, since it seems that is the best learning by one on one...
Secondly, I always make it understoood that I'm not a professional and I'm not good. If I were I'd be racing or sponsored so never call me that...
Thirdly, you learn folks to be safer for you AND the rest of us ESPECIALLY since you'll eventually be riding on your own or with a group.
For the most part... I agree that the ins co are robbing us, should there be ins is the question? what would people ride like if they didn't carry it?
As for the ABS comment... I completely agree... it's coming down to laziness and teaching the rider to use/nay DEPEND a linked braking system is taking something away from their
mental riding. To in affect use it at the level in which it needs to be used..
Now for the cost of rising tax on licensing and titling... what a crock...
it's only been a few years but I'm seeing a 20$ increase per year on these things. License and tabs for a bike with a title change = 125.00? WTF? that's never going to be included in the sale of a bike so???
As for the STARS program, it's about what the instructor has guidelines for... if they go outside those boundaries and actually put you through your paces to do the right thing it's up to them...
You have to have the ability to be able to STFU, respect the instructors thoghts and actions and be open to suggestion in a learning environment.
Students that listen and breath on every word you speak, themselves are a rarity... Good luck out there guys and please learn something today and don't be pissed LOL
As for the age vs 'maturity' if brought up in the right environment, and taught correctly... naw... people are gonna do what they want ot do... it's your sound advice that makes it yeah or nay what decision they ultimately have (not all the time sometimes) this pretty much goes without saying...
Question is, who out there helps riders learn more than actually just riding with them and letting them go about n their merry way doing it all wrong?
I make it a point to show, talk, and ultimately make the riders do it again until they get it right... I get pissed off seeing someone with a f'd up body position during a ride...
I truly wish I had a paint ball gun for those that take a perpendicular line into a corner and braking AS they enter when you're hitting the gas...
as I said before, some people need guidance no matter how foul or nice you are about it... it's better than getting stacked.
[image: View Post]taglicious, on 27 July 2010 - 06:24 PM, said:
should there be ins is the question? what would people ride like if they didn't carry it?
Amen to that, though any Aussie under 25 would be paying approx. US$2236.00 annually for full comp. ins.. So it is hard to believe they're even covered....
End of thread · 49 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 23 Jan 2011