[image: View Post]mello dude, on 05 June 2010 - 09:48 PM, said:
[image: View Post]JES_VFR, on 05 June 2010 - 04:48 PM, said:
All the discussions about fans, fans switches, fan cutoff modules and ceramic coating headers, got me thinking.
What would happen to all the cooling issues on our VFRs (and other bikes), if a person had their engine cases, covers, heads and exhaust coated with ceramic coatings for the maximum heat barrier properties.
That means inside and out for most of the bits. That would mean that each part absorbs less heat, so it can radiate less heat to the atmosphere.
Now that would mean more heat goes into the coolant, as more heat goes out the tailpipe, but it also means a slight increase in combustion efficiency.
Would we be able to tune with PC's to take advantage of this small increase, I don't know (Codewriter and company, jump in on this one).
Would the cooling system be able to handle it,
Probably since the coatings would only be changing the way we try to radiate the heat to the atmosphere, not generating more or eliminating it .
Well, what do you people think?
- Just a stab at it - probably your keeping more heat internal to the engine causing it to run
hotter - I dont think I would wanna do that. I'm sure engine engineers plan for some radiant heat to keep the thing alive. ---Sounds like a discussion to have over a few brews....... :beer:
I did do the heat wrap on the the headers. I wont say if it added power or not, mostly it was to try to lessen heat to keep off the expensive Penske shock. I'm sure I'm radiating less header heat on the front side too. - I'm liking my little experiment.
In the past I did the heat wrap thing and ended up with heat accelerated rot in the headers. and since my header already looks like crap, I'm not about to push it.
But I think I have a line on tbr header which in a better stainless steel and I know that I'm going to get it ceramic coated before I install it.
Plus since there is no cat, can have the insides done as well.
I was just thinking that if the covers and out side of the block was ceramic coated the heat would stay in the coolant. I figured that I might need a larger oil cooler (or maybe not since it won't be sitting in the heat soak central just above the front header pipes.
I mean the back and forth that Codewriter and I keep having is whether the heat soak area created by the heat radiated from the block affects the ability of the cooling fan to be effective when it pushes the heated are from the hot soak area across the radiator.
I say that it effects the cooling of radiator only for a moment when the fan starts up, and secondly that it is still heat that is being removed from the system.
I mean think about it on a car we put the ac coil out in front of the radiator and let it heat the air before it get to the radiator, but that doesn't make the rad fail. I think there is always enough delta T between the incoming air and the coolant in the rad that it can and will work. You have much bigger problems than engine cooling if the incoming air is hot enough to prevent the radiator from cooling, Like maybe you are on fire.
Will keeping the heat in the coolant raise its temperature, I'm not so sure.. The thermostat will still open at the same temp (just sooner). The rads will see warm coolant more, but I don't think it will be all that much hotter. I do think that it will make the fan run significantly more as the coolant is going to get to 220 (or 223 or whatever temp the oem switch actually closes at) much more often.
But I look at it this way. Combusting the gasoline makes X btu's of heat and Y btu of it go into the coolant in the block, now if we stop the block from radiating it away on the outside and send it through to the radiators, did we change how much heat we are 'venting', no we just changed how we do it.
[image: View Post]magicman, on 05 June 2010 - 10:46 PM, said:
Is a hotter motor really more efficient?
It can be, In fact that is one reason why all the new cars want to warm up as fast as possible and stay a higher operating temperature these days
You're not just going to have additional heat build up in the coolant, but also in the oil! More importantly, all your "soft parts" (Gaskets, bearings, o-rings, etc).
That depends on how the coatings are done. For example if you coat the insides of the crankcase, the transmission case, inside head (where the cam and valve train live), as well as both sides of all the covers: You eliminate most of the surfaces that oil can cling to and gain heat. I'll bet if there was some way to enlarge the oil passages (extrudehone maybe) and then coat them as well you would eliminate a large percentage of the oil heating.
Also all those bearings an seals would have cooler oil to operate against so they would not be to in much danger from added heat.
Now the gaskets would have to possibly withstand more heat, but how often have you had a gasket fail on one of your bikes. I've never had one fail unless it was damaged during installation.
I can't remember the last time I had an automotive gasket fail that it wasn't damaged or defective at the time it was installed.
The heat has to go somewhere. Have you ever gotten stuck on your bike in traffic? Can you imagine if the single rad with a fan had to do ALL of the cooling in that situation?!? Some how, I don't think it'd be up to the task. Especially when all of your gaskets and o-rings are running hotter (sustained) than they were designed too.
Oh I agree the heat has to go somewhere. And, yes I frequently and often find myself stuck in traffic on one of my bikes. I've sat on the vfr for more than half an hour, in the oven called the
Vine Street Expressway on an august day, waiting for an accident to be cleared. The VFR just sat idling with the fan cycling on for three minutes and then off for nearly six minutes, then repeating the cycle. Well I imagine the fan would take a bit longer to cycle off, but I doubt that with the vtr fan blowing the heat out of the bike that it would be unable to keep the bike from overheating. Again if the coolant and oil are within normal acceptable temperature ranges why would the gaskets, o-rings, bearings and seals be endangered??
It is a terrific idea if you would indeed get more efficient combustion and operation, but there would be a significant amount of other work required to support your coating of all the casings, etc. There would also be a fairly significantly increased maintenance schedule. I don't want to start an oil discussion, but I don't think regular Honda GN4 10W40 would be upto it. Nor would most 10W40s.
Again, there would be a hell of a lot of work to disassemble everything, get it coated inside-n-out, then have to have every bolt hole checked and then finally careful reassembly. In the end I don't think that it would increase the maintenance schedule that much. If the oil stays at normal temps, because it now has even less contact with the hot block's mass and is only getting heat from lubrication of bearing surfaces, then it should last as long as normal.
Now, if you were running a street fighter with a big single front mount rad to test it out on, that'd be a great experiment (although $$$). I don't think I'd try it on the VFR just yet. Not until you discuss it with some professional engineers, in a professional environment (IE: not getting advice from other engineers outside their perspective field via a forum,or from wannabe's like me. :fing02: )
I'm actually going to talk to a guy that is an engineer for a ceramic coatings company, next week. I was just putting it up here first to see what our group here thought.