Final Drive hot to the touch?

I went on a 4 hour cruise today and my FD was very hot, if i hold my hand there for a few seconds im sure it would get burned. Is this normal?

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 02 July 2010 - 09:52 PM, said:

I went on a 4 hour cruise today and my FD was very hot, if i hold my hand there for a few seconds im sure it would get burned. Is this normal?



Quite normal

The human hand is worthless as a temperature measuring device.

Your threshold for pain is well below the protective limit of modern lubricants.

[image: View Post]Lee 2002, on 02 July 2010 - 09:30 PM, said:

The human hand is worthless as a temperature measuring device.

Your threshold for pain is well below the protective limit of modern lubricants.

Lol :) Actually, ROFL.

edit: In all seriousness, I wouldn't worry about it. Just the brake back there probably creates a ton of heat.

Don't touch it! :goofy:

No worries, don't go looking for problems on a brand new bike! :blink:

BR

I don't know this bike but the Beemer doesn't get to hot, but the Beemer is a wet lube drive. What's the VFR1200 shaft wet, or dry?

[image: View Post]iPepper, on 02 July 2010 - 10:48 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Lee 2002, on 02 July 2010 - 09:30 PM, said:

The human hand is worthless as a temperature measuring device.

Your threshold for pain is well below the protective limit of modern lubricants.

Lol :) Actually, ROFL.

edit: In all seriousness, I wouldn't worry about it. Just the brake back there probably creates a ton of heat.


Actually the rear brake should produce very little heat (unless it's on all the time) and any heat it does produce would have no effect on the final drive.

[image: View Post]Monk, on 02 July 2010 - 11:05 PM, said:

I don't know this bike but the Beemer doesn't get to hot, but the Beemer is a wet lube drive. What's the VFR1200 shaft wet, or dry?


I don't think there's such a thing as a "dry" shaft final drive. Any hypoid gear drive requires an oil bath and they all produce heat. New BMW final drive cases get very hot. The smaller they are the hotter they get.

[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 02 July 2010 - 10:52 PM, said:

Don't touch it! :goofy:
BR


Yeah. What the doctor said.

Mine gets hot too, as does the clutch cover - I could fry an egg on the clutch cover

This is for anyone that hasn't had a drive shaft bike before, There's been quite a few discussions on this. and this seems to be the answer to the gease threads.

I've had 3 shaft drives 2 beemers and 1 yamaha, they've all been wet bath for the shaft and rear end, but I've "seen" bikes with exposed shafts, etc. None of my bikes shafts have gotten to hot to leave my hand on it.... but they do get hot.... But it sure doesn't hurt to have the wheel off and get some good lube for it.... ask some beemer riders or fjr riders.......


Spline Lubricants

You need to grease your drive splines each time you change your rear tire. This is true for all shaft drive bikes, regardless of brand. This is a real issue: ask any BMW rider, or any old-time ST1100 or GL high mileage type, and you'll likely get a whole lecture about spline maintenance. The lecture may or may not be informed, but it will demonstrate real concern.

The drive splines get surprisingly hot. Additionally, there's a lot of pressure on the splines and a lot of back and forth sliding motion. Any liquid type of grease will quickly be squeezed out of the splines, and leave you with no protection. The first time you remove your rear tire, you will likely find that the factory grease has dried out completely and solidified into something which does not even remotely resemble a lubricant. Actually, if it's a good Moly grease, it's still doing its job in this form, but it's not a pretty sight.

Honda specifies a spline grease which is 60% molybdenum disulfide ("moly"). Moly is a dry lubricant which bonds to the metal surfaces, offering lubrication properties even when the parts have squeezed everything liquid out. A lot of greases now say "Moly" on the container, but you must be careful about this. Ford and Caterpillar specify moly greases for particular applications, but the requirement is for 3% moly, not even close to the 60% requirement of Honda. It's not enough to buy a moly grease, what you really want is basically dry moly in a grease-like carrier which makes it easier to apply.

These days, most BMW shops seem to be using the Honda moly paste on drive splines. I have no idea what Kawasaki, Yamaha, or Suzuki dealers are doing, but if it's anything like what most Honda dealers are doing, it's simply not acceptable. My informal survey of Honda shops, backed up by observations from several other riders, has convinced me that essentially none of them use Moly-60. They use the cheapest brake and drive shaft grease they can buy.

If you let a dealer or shop change your rear tire, be certain they are using Moly-60 paste or Krytox, or you're going to be needing new drive splines in about 50,000 miles. Guaranteed. I recommend you remove and replace your own wheels, leaving the spline cleaning and lubrication up to you. If you want nothing to do with this, then I recommend you have a talk with your favorite mechanic before tires come up, and buy your own tube of lubricant if necessary.

I was using some spray cleaner/degreaser around the front of my PC800 shaft, and it would flash to steam immediately upon contact with the front of the drive shaft area. Very hot! Apparently normal...
Thanks Monk for the Moly lube tutorial! I haven't needed a rear tire change on the PC800 yet, so that is essentially the only bit I haven't serviced.

That's why I am not a big fan of drive shaft. You never know when it's going to fail (like the BMW FD). It may run for the next 100k miles or it may fail tomorrow. With a chain, I replaced it every 25k miles with my hand tools. Every 500 miles, spending 15 seconds to spray lube onto the chain is all the maintenance it takes... :-)

Being paranoid i switched back to Honda Drive shaft oil. Seems cooler. I can hold my hand on their for about 4-5 seconds now after a 4 hour ride, instead of 1-2. Temps out are the same, maybe more humid tho.

I was using Castrol GL5 SAE80 hypoid gear oil. The Honda stuff is SAE80-90 GL4 + GL5 certified.

The castrol stuff was light yellow in color, the honda stuff looks like dark honey.

Yes i know this post is all unscientific, but just my observations :-)

[image: View Post]testrider, on 05 July 2010 - 03:36 PM, said:

Every 500 miles, spending 15 seconds to spray lube onto the chain is all the maintenance it takes... :-)


You don't clean or adjust your chain? Or clean the crap it flings all over the rest of the bike?

[image: View Post]phobe, on 07 July 2010 - 06:29 PM, said:

[image: View Post]testrider, on 05 July 2010 - 03:36 PM, said:

Every 500 miles, spending 15 seconds to spray lube onto the chain is all the maintenance it takes... :-)


You don't clean or adjust your chain? Or clean the crap it flings all over the rest of the bike?



^^^ lol, this

It should be normal, Energy and the resulting friction going into that "pumpkin" must go out somewhere as heat.......

Beck
95 VFR

[image: View Post]Monk, on 03 July 2010 - 07:59 PM, said:

This is for anyone that hasn't had a drive shaft bike before, There's been quite a few discussions on this. and this seems to be the answer to the gease threads.

I've had 3 shaft drives 2 beemers and 1 yamaha, they've all been wet bath for the shaft and rear end, but I've "seen" bikes with exposed shafts, etc. None of my bikes shafts have gotten to hot to leave my hand on it.... but they do get hot.... But it sure doesn't hurt to have the wheel off and get some good lube for it.... ask some beemer riders or fjr riders.......


Spline Lubricants

You need to grease your drive splines each time you change your rear tire. This is true for all shaft drive bikes, regardless of brand. This is a real issue: ask any BMW rider, or any old-time ST1100 or GL high mileage type, and you'll likely get a whole lecture about spline maintenance. The lecture may or may not be informed, but it will demonstrate real concern.

The drive splines get surprisingly hot. Additionally, there's a lot of pressure on the splines and a lot of back and forth sliding motion. Any liquid type of grease will quickly be squeezed out of the splines, and leave you with no protection. The first time you remove your rear tire, you will likely find that the factory grease has dried out completely and solidified into something which does not even remotely resemble a lubricant. Actually, if it's a good Moly grease, it's still doing its job in this form, but it's not a pretty sight.

Honda specifies a spline grease which is 60% molybdenum disulfide ("moly"). Moly is a dry lubricant which bonds to the metal surfaces, offering lubrication properties even when the parts have squeezed everything liquid out. A lot of greases now say "Moly" on the container, but you must be careful about this. Ford and Caterpillar specify moly greases for particular applications, but the requirement is for 3% moly, not even close to the 60% requirement of Honda. It's not enough to buy a moly grease, what you really want is basically dry moly in a grease-like carrier which makes it easier to apply.

These days, most BMW shops seem to be using the Honda moly paste on drive splines. I have no idea what Kawasaki, Yamaha, or Suzuki dealers are doing, but if it's anything like what most Honda dealers are doing, it's simply not acceptable. My informal survey of Honda shops, backed up by observations from several other riders, has convinced me that essentially none of them use Moly-60. They use the cheapest brake and drive shaft grease they can buy.

If you let a dealer or shop change your rear tire, be certain they are using Moly-60 paste or Krytox, or you're going to be needing new drive splines in about 50,000 miles. Guaranteed. I recommend you remove and replace your own wheels, leaving the spline cleaning and lubrication up to you. If you want nothing to do with this, then I recommend you have a talk with your favorite mechanic before tires come up, and buy your own tube of lubricant if necessary.



I have an old GL with 40k miles. 30K mles put on by me, no problem. I have always used regular waterproof grease on the splines. Whats funny is that I actually have honda moly grease on my shelf.

Dont touch the shock reservoir.

[image: View Post]Monk, on 03 July 2010 - 05:59 PM, said:

This is for anyone that hasn't had a drive shaft bike before, There's been quite a few discussions on this. and this seems to be the answer to the gease threads.

I've had 3 shaft drives 2 beemers and 1 yamaha, they've all been wet bath for the shaft and rear end, but I've "seen" bikes with exposed shafts, etc. None of my bikes shafts have gotten to hot to leave my hand on it.... but they do get hot.... But it sure doesn't hurt to have the wheel off and get some good lube for it.... ask some beemer riders or fjr riders.......


Spline Lubricants

You need to grease your drive splines each time you change your rear tire. This is true for all shaft drive bikes, regardless of brand. This is a real issue: ask any BMW rider, or any old-time ST1100 or GL high mileage type, and you'll likely get a whole lecture about spline maintenance. The lecture may or may not be informed, but it will demonstrate real concern.

The drive splines get surprisingly hot. Additionally, there's a lot of pressure on the splines and a lot of back and forth sliding motion. Any liquid type of grease will quickly be squeezed out of the splines, and leave you with no protection. The first time you remove your rear tire, you will likely find that the factory grease has dried out completely and solidified into something which does not even remotely resemble a lubricant. Actually, if it's a good Moly grease, it's still doing its job in this form, but it's not a pretty sight.

Honda specifies a spline grease which is 60% molybdenum disulfide ("moly"). Moly is a dry lubricant which bonds to the metal surfaces, offering lubrication properties even when the parts have squeezed everything liquid out. A lot of greases now say "Moly" on the container, but you must be careful about this. Ford and Caterpillar specify moly greases for particular applications, but the requirement is for 3% moly, not even close to the 60% requirement of Honda. It's not enough to buy a moly grease, what you really want is basically dry moly in a grease-like carrier which makes it easier to apply.

These days, most BMW shops seem to be using the Honda moly paste on drive splines. I have no idea what Kawasaki, Yamaha, or Suzuki dealers are doing, but if it's anything like what most Honda dealers are doing, it's simply not acceptable. My informal survey of Honda shops, backed up by observations from several other riders, has convinced me that essentially none of them use Moly-60. They use the cheapest brake and drive shaft grease they can buy.

If you let a dealer or shop change your rear tire, be certain they are using Moly-60 paste or Krytox, or you're going to be needing new drive splines in about 50,000 miles. Guaranteed. I recommend you remove and replace your own wheels, leaving the spline cleaning and lubrication up to you. If you want nothing to do with this, then I recommend you have a talk with your favorite mechanic before tires come up, and buy your own tube of lubricant if necessary.


Is this something that has to be done each time the wheel is remove? Because i dont know how to change a tire, but i can remove the wheel. Can i grease it up before i bring it in for the tire change? Or will the removal of the wheel again mess up the grease application?

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 08 July 2010 - 08:08 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Monk, on 03 July 2010 - 05:59 PM, said:

snip
You need to grease your drive splines each time you change your rear tire. This is true for all shaft drive bikes, regardless of brand. This is a real issue: ask any BMW rider, or any old-time ST1100 or GL high mileage type, and you'll likely get a whole lecture about spline maintenance. The lecture may or may not be informed, but it will demonstrate real concern.

snip


Is this something that has to be done each time the wheel is remove? Because i dont know how to change a tire, but i can remove the wheel. Can i grease it up before i bring it in for the tire change? Or will the removal of the wheel again mess up the grease application?


There is currently no recommendation for spline lubrication on the 1200 in general maintenance procedures. Regardless, removal of the rear wheel would have nothing to do with servicing the splines. If there are splines to be lubricated they will be behind the rubber bellows where the shaft meets the engine..

Hopefully not as hot as this:

http://andyw-inuk.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/R1200GS-BMW-Motorcycle-Photo/Nothing-Good-Just-Bad-Ugly/r1200gsfinaldrivefire/425600721_LV4aF-S.jpg

Until I get my service manual, after removing the rear wheel I wonder what the recommended procedure is to get to the shaft
and liberally coat the necessary surfaces with product?

Might be nice to see what's already there!

btw, who has the best price on the book? tia

[image: View Post]VFRider, on 09 July 2010 - 04:39 AM, said:

Until I get my service manual, after removing the rear wheel I wonder what the recommended procedure is to get to the shaft
and liberally coat the necessary surfaces with product?

Might be nice to see what's already there!

btw, who has the best price on the book? tia


As I mentioned in my previous post, removing the rear wheel has nothing to do with accessing the shaft splines. Any splines will be behind the rubber bellows at the engine output shaft. If these splines had to be lubricated every tire change (3500 miles) it would be mentioned in the owner's manual, it is not.
Ask your Honda service representative.

Besides normal operating friction a shaft drive heats up because the
engine heats up... any metal that is connected to the engine act like
a heat sink drawing the 180 to 212 F coolant temp with it... that's
also why your chain gets as hot as the engine coolant too...

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 08 July 2010 - 08:08 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Monk, on 03 July 2010 - 05:59 PM, said:

This is for anyone that hasn't had a drive shaft bike before, There's been quite a few discussions on this. and this seems to be the answer to the gease threads.

I've had 3 shaft drives 2 beemers and 1 yamaha, they've all been wet bath for the shaft and rear end, but I've "seen" bikes with exposed shafts, etc. None of my bikes shafts have gotten to hot to leave my hand on it.... but they do get hot.... But it sure doesn't hurt to have the wheel off and get some good lube for it.... ask some beemer riders or fjr riders.......


Spline Lubricants

You need to grease your drive splines each time you change your rear tire. This is true for all shaft drive bikes, regardless of brand. This is a real issue: ask any BMW rider, or any old-time ST1100 or GL high mileage type, and you'll likely get a whole lecture about spline maintenance. The lecture may or may not be informed, but it will demonstrate real concern.

The drive splines get surprisingly hot. Additionally, there's a lot of pressure on the splines and a lot of back and forth sliding motion. Any liquid type of grease will quickly be squeezed out of the splines, and leave you with no protection. The first time you remove your rear tire, you will likely find that the factory grease has dried out completely and solidified into something which does not even remotely resemble a lubricant. Actually, if it's a good Moly grease, it's still doing its job in this form, but it's not a pretty sight.

Honda specifies a spline grease which is 60% molybdenum disulfide ("moly"). Moly is a dry lubricant which bonds to the metal surfaces, offering lubrication properties even when the parts have squeezed everything liquid out. A lot of greases now say "Moly" on the container, but you must be careful about this. Ford and Caterpillar specify moly greases for particular applications, but the requirement is for 3% moly, not even close to the 60% requirement of Honda. It's not enough to buy a moly grease, what you really want is basically dry moly in a grease-like carrier which makes it easier to apply.

These days, most BMW shops seem to be using the Honda moly paste on drive splines. I have no idea what Kawasaki, Yamaha, or Suzuki dealers are doing, but if it's anything like what most Honda dealers are doing, it's simply not acceptable. My informal survey of Honda shops, backed up by observations from several other riders, has convinced me that essentially none of them use Moly-60. They use the cheapest brake and drive shaft grease they can buy.

If you let a dealer or shop change your rear tire, be certain they are using Moly-60 paste or Krytox, or you're going to be needing new drive splines in about 50,000 miles. Guaranteed. I recommend you remove and replace your own wheels, leaving the spline cleaning and lubrication up to you. If you want nothing to do with this, then I recommend you have a talk with your favorite mechanic before tires come up, and buy your own tube of lubricant if necessary.


Is this something that has to be done each time the wheel is remove? Because i dont know how to change a tire, but i can remove the wheel. Can i grease it up before i bring it in for the tire change? Or will the removal of the wheel again mess up the grease application?


As I mentioned before I don't know about this bike....... But what ever any bike calls for .... I'd then use this grease when it's required per manufacture.

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 09 July 2010 - 04:15 PM, said:

Besides normal operating friction a shaft drive heats up because the
engine heats up... any metal that is connected to the engine act like
a heat sink drawing the 180 to 212 F coolant temp with it... that's
also why your chain gets as hot as the engine coolant too...


Are you sure the chain isn't getting hot from the friction of the plates and rollers?

Just thinking about the hot weather and the heating problem. I can't hold my hand on the hood of my truck when it's 95 out like today, regardless of whether the truck was running or not. It's good to ask though. You never know. I'd change the final drive oil because the bike is new and make sure it's always topped off. My son says his legs and ass cook from his new R-1 and so it goes . . .

I was riding east from Seattle on I-90 two days ago, it was hot as the dickens and I ran into stop and go traffic. My temp went up to 244 but I eventually got moving again and it went back down to about 185 and held.

The bottom line, it's under warrenty, ride it.

[image: View Post]Veefer800Canuck, on 08 July 2010 - 07:38 PM, said:

Hopefully not as hot as this:

http://andyw-inuk.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/R1200GS-BMW-Motorcycle-Photo/Nothing-Good-Just-Bad-Ugly/r1200gsfinaldrivefire/425600721_LV4aF-S.jpg

Is there an article about that picture anywhere?

[image: View Post]iPepper, on 09 July 2010 - 08:25 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Veefer800Canuck, on 08 July 2010 - 07:38 PM, said:

Hopefully not as hot as this:

http://andyw-inuk.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/R1200GS-BMW-Motorcycle-Photo/Nothing-Good-Just-Bad-Ugly/r1200gsfinaldrivefire/425600721_LV4aF-S.jpg

Is there an article about that picture anywhere?



Yes, right here: http://www.advrider....t=167287&page=1

it's not uncommon for a seized bearing to heat up red hot and the flames are simply the result of having rubber close by. It looks spectacular but a fairly normal series of events for a seized bearing.

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/fing02.gif I completely agree with what Monk said in post 11. I've seen the same things he described, and I've also seen final drives go 150,000+ miles when properly maintained. High moly content grease, at regular intervals.

Garry

[image: View Post]Tightwad, on 09 July 2010 - 03:27 PM, said:

Are you sure the chain isn't getting hot from the friction of the plates and rollers?


Some of the chain heat is due to friction but the majority heat comes
from the sprocket because in runs at 180 to 212F... you can idle your
bike in neutral and with a heat sensor track the rise of heat of first
the sprocket and then the chain to the operating temp of the engine...

[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 09 July 2010 - 02:15 PM, said:

Besides normal operating friction a shaft drive heats up because the
engine heats up... any metal that is connected to the engine act like
a heat sink drawing the 180 to 212 F coolant temp with it... that's
also why your chain gets as hot as the engine coolant too...


Soooooo, you're saying that the engine coolant is hotter than the engine blocks/casings/etc? :comp13:

The coolant isn't the source, it too is a sink.

But yes, final drives can get hot. My last FD was on the FJR. But every part on that bike got hot, even the mirrors. :laughing6-hehe:

[image: View Post]Monk, on 09 July 2010 - 05:11 PM, said:

[image: View Post]UltraMagnus, on 08 July 2010 - 08:08 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Monk, on 03 July 2010 - 05:59 PM, said:

This is for anyone that hasn't had a drive shaft bike before, There's been quite a few discussions on this. and this seems to be the answer to the gease threads.

I've had 3 shaft drives 2 beemers and 1 yamaha, they've all been wet bath for the shaft and rear end, but I've "seen" bikes with exposed shafts, etc. None of my bikes shafts have gotten to hot to leave my hand on it.... but they do get hot.... But it sure doesn't hurt to have the wheel off and get some good lube for it.... ask some beemer riders or fjr riders.......


Spline Lubricants

You need to grease your drive splines each time you change your rear tire. This is true for all shaft drive bikes, regardless of brand. This is a real issue: ask any BMW rider, or any old-time ST1100 or GL high mileage type, and you'll likely get a whole lecture about spline maintenance. The lecture may or may not be informed, but it will demonstrate real concern.

The drive splines get surprisingly hot. Additionally, there's a lot of pressure on the splines and a lot of back and forth sliding motion. Any liquid type of grease will quickly be squeezed out of the splines, and leave you with no protection. The first time you remove your rear tire, you will likely find that the factory grease has dried out completely and solidified into something which does not even remotely resemble a lubricant. Actually, if it's a good Moly grease, it's still doing its job in this form, but it's not a pretty sight.

Honda specifies a spline grease which is 60% molybdenum disulfide ("moly"). Moly is a dry lubricant which bonds to the metal surfaces, offering lubrication properties even when the parts have squeezed everything liquid out. A lot of greases now say "Moly" on the container, but you must be careful about this. Ford and Caterpillar specify moly greases for particular applications, but the requirement is for 3% moly, not even close to the 60% requirement of Honda. It's not enough to buy a moly grease, what you really want is basically dry moly in a grease-like carrier which makes it easier to apply.

These days, most BMW shops seem to be using the Honda moly paste on drive splines. I have no idea what Kawasaki, Yamaha, or Suzuki dealers are doing, but if it's anything like what most Honda dealers are doing, it's simply not acceptable. My informal survey of Honda shops, backed up by observations from several other riders, has convinced me that essentially none of them use Moly-60. They use the cheapest brake and drive shaft grease they can buy.

If you let a dealer or shop change your rear tire, be certain they are using Moly-60 paste or Krytox, or you're going to be needing new drive splines in about 50,000 miles. Guaranteed. I recommend you remove and replace your own wheels, leaving the spline cleaning and lubrication up to you. If you want nothing to do with this, then I recommend you have a talk with your favorite mechanic before tires come up, and buy your own tube of lubricant if necessary.


Is this something that has to be done each time the wheel is remove? Because i dont know how to change a tire, but i can remove the wheel. Can i grease it up before i bring it in for the tire change? Or will the removal of the wheel again mess up the grease application?


As I mentioned before I don't know about this bike....... But what ever any bike calls for .... I'd then use this grease when it's required per manufacture.


He is referring more to the FJR which doesn't have a single sided swing arm, so the wheel isn't bolted to a hub like it is on the VFR. Also, BMW riders, especially on the boxer R-bikes refer to lubing the splines, but that is talking about the input and output splines of the transmission and the slip yoke on the driveshaft. None of which you want to be doing every time you change a tire, they usually only get done when the clutch is changed or if something else necessitates removing the transmission. The VFR has none of these problems. Don't worry, just ride the hell out of it. My final drive on my BMW will get pretty hot after a lot of highway time, just change the oil every 10-15k or so and ride on.

[image: View Post]Tamworth, on 09 July 2010 - 10:58 PM, said:

it's not uncommon for a seized bearing to heat up red hot and the flames are simply the result of having rubber close by. It looks spectacular but a fairly normal series of events for a seized bearing.


Yes, but why did the bearing seize???
Lack of lube maybe???