Suspension Obsession

I’ve only had my ’06 VFR 800A for a few months and have only ridden a couple thousand miles on it when the weather has permitted on my days off work. I got a couple rides in last week. Today it snowed. I really love the bike. The only thing I have noticed that has caused me concern (not counting the looming specter raised by all the posts about electrical problems) is the suspension.

First, let me say I have very little knowledge or experience wrenching. I did put a fork kit and a Fox shock on my ’83 KTM dirt bike years ago, which did wonders BTW. I am only speaking from the perspective of what I feel when riding. I feel as though the bike, the front wheel actually, is not maintaining good contact with the road during turns on the less than perfect road surfaces we have in my area. I also hear a clunk sound periodically which gives me the impression (and I may be wrong) that it is on the rebound stroke in the front forks.

I have read and re-read the many posts about suspension fixes in this forum including the many helpful, knowledgeable posts by members like BaileyRock, JamieDaugherty and SEBSPEED about retrofitting shocks from other bikes to accomplish results on a budget. I’m trying to absorb all of that sometimes conflicting info and make sense of it. But it is coming slow (I’m old and don’t learn as quickly as I once did.)

I weigh 225 lbs, so, from what I’ve learned here so far, the factory settings are for much lighter riders than me and the stock suspension is undersprung, i.e. the spring rates of the forks and shock are not strong enough to support my weight and to adjust proper sag while keeping sufficient travel available, (not to mention valve issues.)

I feel the urge to fix the suspension. When talking with my buddy, a long–time rider who has a Ducati ST3s (with OEM Ohlins front and rear) about what options I might have, (e.g. change the fork springs and re-valve or a kit and a new rear spring and revalve or a new shock) he tells me we are old men who don’t push our bikes anywhere near their limits and I probably wouldn’t even notice the difference.  While he’s right about the old part, I still think I would notice the difference in handling. The primary purpose of the suspension, after all, is to keep the wheels in contact with the road surface. Right? Better handling is also a safety feature. Right?

Before I go spending a bunch of cash without consulting “she who must be obeyed,” I think I should do some of the minor adjustments that are available, set the sag, and then test ride the variations. I have an ABS model so there is an external preload adjuster for the rear shock. When I turned it up only one click, the only difference I noticed was the front fork seemed to dip more under heavy braking. Clearly the front forks must be adjusted in balance with the rear. I’m not sure how to adjust the forks’ preload (anybody?) I believe it is the small screw head in the top center of each fork. I bought a service manual but I haven’t found info on adjusting the preload.

I have a dream set up in mind. I’ve checked the Ohlins’ website and priced a 3 way adjustable shock, compatible with a 6th generation VFR. Now I know why they call them shocks! I’ve also looked at the Traxxion kit to replace essentially all the internals of the forks, which is also expensive. Does Ohlin have such a thing for our VFR front forks or will they do a set? These suspension upgrades will add 35-40% cost to my bike, which of course does not translate into an equal amount of resale value (although the originals can be reinstalled if I sell it and the new units can be sold separately.)

Am I out of my mind obsessing over this? My thinking is, I can ride with a smile on my face or I can ride with a BIG smile on my face. Thanks for taking the time to read this, Any helpful suggestions will be gratefully considered.

Here's some links that might help..... I'd 1st want to set my sag correctly before going to after market parts.(the 1st one is the best, anything this guy has to say is right-on). http://www.fireblade...e-yourself.html http://www.motorcycl...etup/index.html http://www.ehow.com/...motorcycle.html http://www.dynobike...._suspension.htm

@225lb your suspension is in over its head if you want to do more sport-type of riding.
Since you are a novice to all things suspension, and since I've been/am in the same shoes, I would recommend finding a reputable
local suspension shop, bring the bike to them and have them do all the work.
You will pay more, but it's worth it.  For more reasons than one.

If you feel adventurous, you can try doing it on the cheap.
I went this route and to this day I wonder if what I have accomplished (with the help of others on here) is the best it can be or if there is large room for improvement.

Thanks, John, for the links and the good advice. I appreciate the time it took for you to attach those links. I've watched a lot of Dave Moss videos and the concepts are beginning to sink in. Setting the sag and testing will definitely come before I spend any money.

Rice, I'll check for a reputable local suspension shop and seek their advice. Thanks

I would definalty talk the 3 Boys listed above. They know there stuff.

I took there advice and many others, (same readings as you)  and had my suspension re-done. I only did step 1 & 2 in my 3 step process. I put in new springs in front (step 1, $100) for my weight and then went to step 2. Step 2 was to have Jaime re-build and revalve a CBR600 F4I Shock. Shock I got off ebay for $35 and Jaime was $300. Step 3 will be to get CBR600 F4I fork intenals and then have Jaime re-built and re-valve them. I think that I could have all that done for less than an Elka 3-way rear shock. This of course is just the route I am choosing to run. Good luck with what ever you choose.   :fing02:

Oh!   :blink:    Something I definitely need to do, I know my suspension is all wonky...   :blush: I'll have to go see my friend mechanic this summer (after I do all the usual maintenance--engine/brake oil, replace lost fairing bolts, install illuminating turn signals, warm grips, etc... it may take a while to do all this) and we'll set it properly, or in the ballpark anyway. Should be safer to ride that way. Thanks for reminding me to do that, and thanks for the videos Monk and others.   :fing02:

C

[image: View Post]Chaz06i, on 16 February 2011 - 04:20 PM, said:

I would definalty talk the 3 Boys listed above. They know there stuff.

I took there advice and many others, (same readings as you)  and had my suspension re-done. I only did step 1 & 2 in my 3 step process. I put in new springs in front (step 1, $100) for my weight and then went to step 2. Step 2 was to have Jaime re-build and revalve a CBR600 F4I Shock. Shock I got off ebay for $35 and Jaime was $300. Step 3 will be to get CBR600 F4I fork intenals and then have Jaime re-built and re-valve them. I think that I could have all that done for less than an Elka 3-way rear shock. This of course is just the route I am choosing to run. Good luck with what ever you choose.   :fing02:

Chaz, Thanks for your comments. when you have completed your project would you tell us about how the modifications affected the feel and handling of your bike?

BTW I picked mine (also a 2006) up from a seller a little north of you in Anacortes, WA.

Hello, and welcome if I haven't mentioned that before!   :biggrin:

Yes 225 is over what the stock bikes springs were ideally designed for, but I have to ask What Tires are you running and what pressures?
While the the suspension will be soft for your weight the VFR is more than capable of running a Rapid pace with a 225lb guy and stock suspension IMO, your issues sounds more TIRE related at the moment unless you are really pushing the bike!   :blush:

Of course the bike will work Better with the proper spring rates and proper damping for those springs and by all means if you have to funds to upgrade the suspension, Do It now!  But first slap on a set of Michelin Pilot Powers(or similar), set sag & pressures and you should be able to haul pretty quick AZZ on that thing w/o any lack of grip issues IMO.   :fing02:


BR

My bike is a 2002 and I am at 215lbs. I read a lot of posts and spent a lot of time in the suspension section of the forum.

I lucked and found a fellow VFR member who sold me his stock shock for $30.00 and then was kind enough to send it to Jamie for me. Jamie put on a heavier spring and upgraded the valving. Also bought new fork springs. I have the GIVI 3 pce luggage set up.

It is now getting warm enuff to work on the bike. Springs are in and the rear shock next week. Still........ I have a few weeks to go before all the snow is gone. :angry:

Unless you're really pushing the bike that hard, you won't need the AK fork cartridges. Stiffer springs and the race tech valves should be a good start for the front without breaking the bank. Rear is up to you. Can't remember if the 929 shock works, but if it does, getting it resprung will be good as well. No need to drop $2000+ on suspension.

[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 16 February 2011 - 05:38 PM, said:

Hello, and welcome if I haven't mentioned that before!   :biggrin:

Yes 225 is over what the stock bikes springs were ideally designed for, but I have to ask What Tires are you running and what pressures?
While the the suspension will be soft for your weight the VFR is more than capable of running a Rapid pace with a 225lb guy and stock suspension IMO, your issues sounds more TIRE related at the moment unless you are really pushing the bike!   :blush:

Of course the bike will work Better with the proper spring rates and proper damping for those springs and by all means if you have to funds to upgrade the suspension, Do It now!  But first slap on a set of Michelin Pilot Powers(or similar), set sag & pressures and you should be able to haul pretty quick AZZ on that thing w/o any lack of grip issues IMO.   :fing02:


BR

Hi BR.! You kindly welcomed me in the official welcome section.

Tires are original stock. I can't remember which brand; but they had about 1900 miles on them when I got the bike a few months ago. Tire pressure was initially an issue but I corrected that and  they are now at what is recommended in the specs of the service manual as set by the local Honda dealer service shop. With all respect for your superior knowledge and experience, I'm pretty sure it is not a tire issue. I'm not pushing the bike's limits as far as I know, but I am trying to force myself up to the outer edges of my personal comfort zone. Maybe my limitations are the problem! :huh:

Ironically, today my wife emailed me to tell me my set of Michelin Pilot Road 2's were delivered at home. I'm planning to save them until I get more wear on the current tires.

"by all means if you have to funds to upgrade the suspension, Do It now!" Well that is a problem. There are many responsibilities and it is always   :lobby:

Thanks for your insight.

[image: View Post]Gerrys02800, on 16 February 2011 - 05:59 PM, said:

My bike is a 2002 and I am at 215lbs. I read a lot of posts and spent a lot of time in the suspension section of the forum.

I lucked and found a fellow VFR member who sold me his stock shock for $30.00 and then was kind enough to send it to Jamie for me. Jamie put on a heavier spring and upgraded the valving. Also bought new fork springs. I have the GIVI 3 pce luggage set up.

It is now getting warm enuff to work on the bike. Springs are in and the rear shock next week. Still........ I have a few weeks to go before all the snow is gone. :angry:



Thanks, Gerry. I can't wait to hear what you think of the results you get from those changes. That is certainly more economical than my dream scheme and may be all (or more than) I need! :biggrin:

[image: View Post]YoshiHNS, on 16 February 2011 - 06:38 PM, said:

Unless you're really pushing the bike that hard, you won't need the AK fork cartridges. Stiffer springs and the race tech valves should be a good start for the front without breaking the bank. Rear is up to you. Can't remember if the 929 shock works, but if it does, getting it resprung will be good as well. No need to drop $2000+ on suspension.

You are probably correct,Yoshi, and I thank you for helping save me from myself! That's why entitled this thread "obsession." I've got to get a grip! Still, I have this feeling in my gut. . . .  No wait. I'm okay, I'm okay, now.

[image: View Post]FHR, on 16 February 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 16 February 2011 - 05:38 PM, said:

Hello, and welcome if I haven't mentioned that before!   :biggrin:

Yes 225 is over what the stock bikes springs were ideally designed for, but I have to ask What Tires are you running and what pressures?
While the the suspension will be soft for your weight the VFR is more than capable of running a Rapid pace with a 225lb guy and stock suspension IMO, your issues sounds more TIRE related at the moment unless you are really pushing the bike!   :blush:

Of course the bike will work Better with the proper spring rates and proper damping for those springs and by all means if you have to funds to upgrade the suspension, Do It now!  But first slap on a set of Michelin Pilot Powers(or similar), set sag & pressures and you should be able to haul pretty quick AZZ on that thing w/o any lack of grip issues IMO.   :fing02:


BR

Hi BR.! You kindly welcomed me in the official welcome section.

Tires are original stock. I can't remember which brand; but they had about 1900 miles on them when I got the bike a few months ago. Tire pressure was initially an issue but I corrected that and  they are now at what is recommended in the specs of the service manual as set by the local Honda dealer service shop. With all respect for your superior knowledge and experience, I'm pretty sure it is not a tire issue. I'm not pushing the bike's limits as far as I know, but I am trying to force myself up to the outer edges of my personal comfort zone. Maybe my limitations are the problem! :huh:

Ironically, today my wife emailed me to tell me my set of Michelin Pilot Road 2's were delivered at home. I'm planning to save them until I get more wear on the current tires.

"by all means if you have to funds to upgrade the suspension, Do It now!" Well that is a problem. There are many responsibilities and it is always   :lobby:

Thanks for your insight.
Just picking apart some of what you said about tyres...... You said you had the pressure adjusted by the mc service shop.... That brings to my mind, how often are you checking the pressure ( f36 / r42 cold ) I'd say not to go any more than 3 days without checking....... Get a bicycle floor pump( about 5 pumps a pound for the rear / 3 for the front) $20/30..... I'd also check to see if you've developed edges being that it's not that curvy for the most part where you live(it's not that curvy here either,as far as keeping my tyre round).

That's sound advice, John. I have a good bicycle pump and will check the pressure regularly.

I have not developed edges, if I understand what you are saying. I'm assuming you mean running on the flat land so much the tires wear only where the rubber has hit the road, i.e. not on the sides at all; so they get squared off. I've been looking for that but it hasn't happened yet.

We actually seek out the curves and there are an abundance of them in our area; although the weather has kept us at relatively lower elevations. Last week I rode from Reno to through Virginia City on state route 341 to Carson City and back on Friday and again on Saturday. Check that on Google Earth or the like. Took a left coming out of V.C. to stay on old 341 in order to travel a more curvy canyon before rejoining SR 342 to Hiway 50. It is grin inducing fun. I'll bet you'd enjoy it (even though there were a shitpile of Harley's in V.C., some wave back, some don't) !. That has been where I've gotten my feedback on the handling recently.

Thanks for your help.

[image: View Post]FHR, on 16 February 2011 - 03:15 PM, said:

Clearly the front forks must be adjusted in balance with the rear. I�m not sure how to adjust the forks� preload (anybody?) I believe it is the small screw head in the top center of each fork.

This is correct.

[image: View Post]FHR, on 16 February 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

Tires are original stock. I can't remember which brand; but they had about 1900 miles on them when I got the bike a few months ago. Tire pressure was initially an issue but I corrected
Ironically, today my wife emailed me to tell me my set of Michelin Pilot Road 2's were delivered at home. I'm planning to save them until I get more wear on the current tires.



I can just about guarantee that just slapping on those Road 2's will easily double your confidence with the bike in the turns over any OEM tire that comes on a VFR and that's w/o touching anything else on the bike.!   :fing02:

I say Don't Save them, Mount them!!!!   :goofy:
It could save you lots of time and money until you have the boot to buy some good pieces!   :fing02:

BR

Can anyone give me a quick answer about how to adjust the preload on the forks? Thanks.

[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 16 February 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

I can just about guarantee that just slapping on those Road 2's will easily double your confidence with the bike in the turns over any OEM tire that comes on a VFR and that's w/o touching anything else on the bike.!   :fing02:

I say Don't Save them, Mount them!!!!   :goofy:
It could save you lots of time and money until you have the boot to buy some good pieces!   :fing02:

BR

Forgive my ignorance but should I add those balancing beads when I put on the new tires? Do they work?

Remember, "ignorance" is curable; it is merely the absence of information. "Stupid" on the other hand. . . Well, I think comedian, Ron White, said, "you can't fix stupid." So I'm hoping I'm only ignorant.

[image: View Post]FHR, on 16 February 2011 - 07:50 PM, said:

Can anyone give me a quick answer about how to adjust the preload on the forks? Thanks.

If you haven't yet download the Factory Shop Manual here:
http://www.vfrdiscus...service-manual/

Fork preload is as simple as a screw driver turning of the only adjustment on the top of the fork tube, clockwise being tighter.   :fing02:

The tires are 5 years old and have about 4,000 miles or so.
Apparently it hasn't been ridden too hard or I'd expect at least the rear to be completely toasted.
Even if they're not quite dead, I bet swapping them out will make a noticeable (and good) difference.   :fing02:

[image: View Post]BaileyRock, on 16 February 2011 - 08:05 PM, said:

[image: View Post]FHR, on 16 February 2011 - 07:50 PM, said:

Can anyone give me a quick answer about how to adjust the preload on the forks? Thanks.

If you haven't yet download the Factory Shop Manual here:
http://www.vfrdiscus...service-manual/

Fork preload is as simple as a screw driver turning of the only adjustment on the top of the fork tube, clockwise being tighter.   :fing02:
And use a screwdriver that fits the slot(the metal is soft).

The VFR800A has the remote preload adjuster. You would lose that going to the CBR929 shock.

Since you are on a bit of a budget, and maybe not experienced enough to deal with multiple-adjustability on your bike anyway, I would look at a heavier rear spring out back and heavier fork springs up front to start.

[image: View Post]FHR, on 16 February 2011 - 05:33 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Chaz06i, on 16 February 2011 - 04:20 PM, said:

I would definalty talk the 3 Boys listed above. They know there stuff.

I took there advice and many others, (same readings as you)  and had my suspension re-done. I only did step 1 & 2 in my 3 step process. I put in new springs in front (step 1, $100) for my weight and then went to step 2. Step 2 was to have Jaime re-build and revalve a CBR600 F4I Shock. Shock I got off ebay for $35 and Jaime was $300. Step 3 will be to get CBR600 F4I fork intenals and then have Jaime re-built and re-valve them. I think that I could have all that done for less than an Elka 3-way rear shock. This of course is just the route I am choosing to run. Good luck with what ever you choose.   :fing02:

Chaz, Thanks for your comments. when you have completed your project would you tell us about how the modifications affected the feel and handling of your bike?

BTW I picked mine (also a 2006) up from a seller a little north of you in Anacortes, WA.


FHR,

I can tell you now, as most will, that doing the rear shock and replacing the front springs is a good way to start. I have noticed a huge improvement so far with just the 2 items done. I have set my sag to 32f/30r without gear. The bike turns in quicker and feels more confident in the turns. It doesn't seeem to me like the bike wants to wash out as bad. Front end feels more planted and the rear stick like glue. Of course, I know the handling could feel better with a set of pilot powers. However, tire life is important and I decided to try a new set of Pirelli Angels. So, I sacrifice a little grip in that regard. The next tire I will run is the PRoad 2 and see how those change things.   :biggrin:

Welcome and nice VFR.  When you do adjust the front fork spring preload I would suggest making those adjustments on the center stand, it will keep the damage to the adjuster to a low as they will be somewhat unloaded. good luck!

I've dealt with Jaime and he is a very straight forward guy to deal with..

I agree with BR as I had a case of the dry rotted road attacks coming back from a deployment.

Jaime built a 929 shock for me and its great for aggressive riding and two up especially with the stiffer spring.
I went a different route with the front end and didn't want to have to play with anything like spring rates or valving.
So I bought a hyperpro front end kit for my 95 VFR which came with 15weight oil and progressively wound springs.
They were easy to install and made a world of difference when it comes to front end feel and brake dive.

The front feels firm, precise, well dampened, and soaks up bumps like a fine sports car. Plus I am running my forks a little higher in the triple tree, I am at 41 instead of 39mm.

I am running a PP front and PR2 rear which is wearing well for all of the 2 up riding I do with 2 not so skinny people.

Rock on guys, keep the good suspension talk going!

Awww Geeeeez. . . . I had almost made up my mind to take a conservative approach and just replace the stock fork and shock springs with some that are suitable for my 225 lb weight (maybe even Hyperpro rising rate springs) and then Jamie goes and posts this in iamthedruman's thread, "Time to upgrade an original 2002 suspension". Jamie said,

"I think if you did springs only it wouldn't take you long before you wanted more. Springs just support the weight, the valving is where you generate your handling performance. The biggest gains are on the compression direction, that's why replacing just those parts is the way to go. I think if you can afford it, upgrading the valving and the springs would make you the most satisfied with the results."

So my suspension obsession is back near square one! Does anyone know of a reliable suspension shop within 100-150 miles of Reno, Nevada?

I've read the manual and learned how to adjust the fork preload. So now I can set the sag and somewhat balance the front and rear suspension. There has been a lot of snow on the ground the last couple weeks so I haven't been able to ride. In the meantime I've been thinking a lot about the suspension. Yes, obsessing! Oh and, BaileyRock, I think I'll mount my new Michelin PR 2's too. But I should keep in mind the scientific method and only change one variable at a time. Otherwise you can't tell which variable causes which improvement or which problem.

Jamie, I would love to hear your thoughts on the Hyperpro rising rate springs. It seems to me they would complicate all the weight/spring rate/sag/compression/rebound calculations. And Hyperpro's "one size  fits all" approach, rather than different spring rates for different weights (although they sell those too), leaves me thinking some folks are going to end up at one end or the other of the rising rate springs' optimum operating range. But at the same time the concept of rising rate springs seems to make sense. But maybe I just like the idea because back in the day a progressive fork spring kit did wonders for my 1983 KTM dirt bike.

Help!!

Is this like holding an AA meeting at a bar?

[image: View Post]FHR, on 04 March 2011 - 02:44 PM, said:

Jamie, I would love to hear your thoughts on the Hyperpro rising rate springs. It seems to me they would complicate all the weight/spring rate/sag/compression/rebound calculations. And Hyperpro's "one size  fits all" approach, rather than different spring rates for different weights (although they sell those too), leaves me thinking some folks are going to end up at one end or the other of the rising rate springs' optimum operating range. But at the same time the concept of rising rate springs seems to make sense. But maybe I just like the idea because back in the day a progressive fork spring kit did wonders for my 1983 KTM dirt bike.


There are several problems with progressive rate springs.  The overall force at full compression needs to be a certain amount to prevent bottoming.  What progressive rate springs do is make the rate light at first and then heavy towards the end to make up for it.  What that does is make the springs soft over the small bumps and stiff over the big ones - the worse of both worlds.  What this does in practice is that the forks blow right through the first part of the travel and end up running most of the time in the overly-stiff portion.  Once again, that it bad in more than one way.  It make the forks operate like they are oversprung, and it effectively reduces your fork travel because you end up never using the first portion of travel.  All of these are negative impacts on performance.

I think people will claim that progressive rate springs help them only because the stock springs were so far off for their weight.  Linear rate springs win out in the performance category every time!

Motocross is a totally different animal.  I do a lot of offroad suspension work as well, and I can tell you that street is much easier.  With offroad you have a much broader range of suspension velocities to deal with.  For some applications a progressive rate spring setup works well.  This also applies to damping, as in the case of the position sensitive WP shocks on some newer KTM's.  Those are crazy, I'm glad street bikes don't have anything like that.

[image: View Post]JamieDaugherty, on 04 March 2011 - 03:01 PM, said:

[image: View Post]FHR, on 04 March 2011 - 02:44 PM, said:

Jamie, I would love to hear your thoughts on the Hyperpro rising rate springs. It seems to me they would complicate all the weight/spring rate/sag/compression/rebound calculations. And Hyperpro's "one size  fits all" approach, rather than different spring rates for different weights (although they sell those too), leaves me thinking some folks are going to end up at one end or the other of the rising rate springs' optimum operating range. But at the same time the concept of rising rate springs seems to make sense. But maybe I just like the idea because back in the day a progressive fork spring kit did wonders for my 1983 KTM dirt bike.


There are several problems with progressive rate springs.  The overall force at full compression needs to be a certain amount to prevent bottoming.  What progressive rate springs do is make the rate light at first and then heavy towards the end to make up for it.  What that does is make the springs soft over the small bumps and stiff over the big ones - the worse of both worlds.  What this does in practice is that the forks blow right through the first part of the travel and end up running most of the time in the overly-stiff portion.  Once again, that it bad in more than one way.  It make the forks operate like they are oversprung, and it effectively reduces your fork travel because you end up never using the first portion of travel.  All of these are negative impacts on performance.

I think people will claim that progressive rate springs help them only because the stock springs were so far off for their weight.  Linear rate springs win out in the performance category every time!

Motocross is a totally different animal.  I do a lot of offroad suspension work as well, and I can tell you that street is much easier.  With offroad you have a much broader range of suspension velocities to deal with.  For some applications a progressive rate spring setup works well.  This also applies to damping, as in the case of the position sensitive WP shocks on some newer KTM's.  Those are crazy, I'm glad street bikes don't have anything like that.

Excellent! I get it. Thank you, Jamie.