Has anyone on here used car oil in there motorcycle or VFR? Did anything feel different or did the clutch go bad sooner than expected, was the oil tested when it was changed and what were the results? Keep reading your not supposed to use car oil in motorcycles and it makes sense because if the clutch plates but wanted to ask the professionals on here, is there any concrete proof, car oil is bad for a motorcycle?
Car oil in motorcycles, good or bad?
50 posts Started 20 Apr 2011 Last recovered post 22 Apr 2011 Wayback Machine snapshot 28 May 2011
Wondering when we could get another oil thread going :laughing6-hehe:
As far as I can tell there are two good reasons to stay with MC oil.........One for the combo of running the oil though the gears and clutch plates, and the other is the small motor high rev's that have an effect.
As far as I can tell there are two good reasons to stay with MC oil.........One for the combo of running the oil though the gears and clutch plates, and the other is the small motor high rev's that have an effect.
I use Castrol GTX 10w/40 changed every 3000 miles since 5,200, so far, so Great. The PO was getting dealer service oil changes before that.
Please no more or use the search function.
Monk is right. MC oil is different than auto oil because it is SHEAR STABLE.
SHEAR STABILITY means than a MC oil holds its viscosity better than auto oil as its whipped through clutch and MC transmission gears.
So just use MC oil to keep a stable weight over time as it runs through higher demands of clutch and transmission gears.
OR DONT....use 99c per quart cheapest auto oil you can find AND YOU PROBABLY STILL WILL NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS. OK?
:beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :cheerleader:
Monk is right. MC oil is different than auto oil because it is SHEAR STABLE.
SHEAR STABILITY means than a MC oil holds its viscosity better than auto oil as its whipped through clutch and MC transmission gears.
So just use MC oil to keep a stable weight over time as it runs through higher demands of clutch and transmission gears.
OR DONT....use 99c per quart cheapest auto oil you can find AND YOU PROBABLY STILL WILL NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS. OK?
:beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :cheerleader:
Many many oil threads have covered this topic, but I will summarize.
You are perfectly OK to use car oil, but stay away from "energy-conserving" oils as they have friction modifiers in them that may or may not cause your clutch to slip.
Most all car oils from 0W30 on up to 10W40 are rated as energy-conserving.
When you get up to the 15W40, 15W50, 20W50 car/truck oils, those grades are generally NOT energy conserving.
Look for the symbol on the oil container and judge accordingly:
[image: Posted Image]
A lot of people use Shell Rotella 15w40 diesel oils in their bikes, diesel rated oils are quite compatible with motorcycles, have excellent additives for extreme pressures in the bearing shells experienced in high-borsepower and torque diesel engines. Folks will worry that big Cat engines only turn 1800 RPM while bikes spin at 12,000, but remember, that 500 HP CAT engine also has a turbocharger hanging off the side, and it is spinning at tens of thousands of RPMS, being lubricated by the same oil.
And a big truck engine is worth tens of thousands of dollars, and intended to run for a million miles or so, so you'd better bet that the oil spec'd for those applications is a quality product.
You are perfectly OK to use car oil, but stay away from "energy-conserving" oils as they have friction modifiers in them that may or may not cause your clutch to slip.
Most all car oils from 0W30 on up to 10W40 are rated as energy-conserving.
When you get up to the 15W40, 15W50, 20W50 car/truck oils, those grades are generally NOT energy conserving.
Look for the symbol on the oil container and judge accordingly:
[image: Posted Image]
![[image: Posted Image]](http://www.jumboautorepair.com/images/API_label.gif){kind=link}
A lot of people use Shell Rotella 15w40 diesel oils in their bikes, diesel rated oils are quite compatible with motorcycles, have excellent additives for extreme pressures in the bearing shells experienced in high-borsepower and torque diesel engines. Folks will worry that big Cat engines only turn 1800 RPM while bikes spin at 12,000, but remember, that 500 HP CAT engine also has a turbocharger hanging off the side, and it is spinning at tens of thousands of RPMS, being lubricated by the same oil.
And a big truck engine is worth tens of thousands of dollars, and intended to run for a million miles or so, so you'd better bet that the oil spec'd for those applications is a quality product.
What's confusing the issue is the fact that all motorcycle wet
clutches will reach a point in their life and begin slipping...
Mr.RC45's clutch began slipping during the 25,000 miles mark and only
during WFO (wide full throttle) in error I could have blamed the oil
but I kept the oil and replaced the clutch pack with aftermarket EBC
plates... clutch operation returned to normal... (note aftermarket
plates tend to run on the thin side of the stock Honda plates and may
require a simple spring pressure mod...)
What I've learned... through trial and error... is that a 10% slippery
oil can not defeat an RC45's wet clutch... because our clutches are
not within 10% of slipping to begin with...
More evidence to support my conjecture can be found in Sportrider
magazine article "Oils Well That Ends Well?"
http://www.sportride...h/146_0308_oil/
quote Sportrider:
"Can synthetic oils cause my clutch to slip?"
"To answer this in one word: No. Clutch slippage is caused by many
things, but the use of synthetic oil alone is usually not the culprit.
The truth is that some bikes seem to suffer clutch slippage no
matter what oil goes in them, while others run fine with any oil. This
is most likely caused by factors other than the oil, such as the
spring pressure, age and clutch plate materials. If you have
a bike known for clutch problems, you may have to be more selective in
your oil choices. Moly is often blamed for clutch slippage, and it can
have an effect-but moly alone is not the problem. We wish there was a
hard and fast rule to follow, but it is just not that easy. Simply
put, you will have to try an oil and evaluate it. If you experience
slippage with the new oil, and have not had problems before, it may be
the oil. The plates and/or springs could also be worn to the point
that they have finally started to slip. Simply change back to the
previous oil and see what happens. You can also check the test data in
next issue's article to see if that particular oil has a significant
amount of moly. If so, try one that does not have as much moly next time."
"We talked to Mark Junge, Vesrah's Racing representative, who has won
numerous WERA national championships using Vesrah's clutches. He said
that in his years of engine work he has yet to see a slipping clutch
that could be pinned on synthetic motor oil. Junge felt that nearly
every time the clutch was marginal or had worn springs, the new oil
just revealed a problem that already existed."
clutches will reach a point in their life and begin slipping...
Mr.RC45's clutch began slipping during the 25,000 miles mark and only
during WFO (wide full throttle) in error I could have blamed the oil
but I kept the oil and replaced the clutch pack with aftermarket EBC
plates... clutch operation returned to normal... (note aftermarket
plates tend to run on the thin side of the stock Honda plates and may
require a simple spring pressure mod...)
What I've learned... through trial and error... is that a 10% slippery
oil can not defeat an RC45's wet clutch... because our clutches are
not within 10% of slipping to begin with...
More evidence to support my conjecture can be found in Sportrider
magazine article "Oils Well That Ends Well?"
http://www.sportride...h/146_0308_oil/
quote Sportrider:
"Can synthetic oils cause my clutch to slip?"
"To answer this in one word: No. Clutch slippage is caused by many
things, but the use of synthetic oil alone is usually not the culprit.
The truth is that some bikes seem to suffer clutch slippage no
matter what oil goes in them, while others run fine with any oil. This
is most likely caused by factors other than the oil, such as the
spring pressure, age and clutch plate materials. If you have
a bike known for clutch problems, you may have to be more selective in
your oil choices. Moly is often blamed for clutch slippage, and it can
have an effect-but moly alone is not the problem. We wish there was a
hard and fast rule to follow, but it is just not that easy. Simply
put, you will have to try an oil and evaluate it. If you experience
slippage with the new oil, and have not had problems before, it may be
the oil. The plates and/or springs could also be worn to the point
that they have finally started to slip. Simply change back to the
previous oil and see what happens. You can also check the test data in
next issue's article to see if that particular oil has a significant
amount of moly. If so, try one that does not have as much moly next time."
"We talked to Mark Junge, Vesrah's Racing representative, who has won
numerous WERA national championships using Vesrah's clutches. He said
that in his years of engine work he has yet to see a slipping clutch
that could be pinned on synthetic motor oil. Junge felt that nearly
every time the clutch was marginal or had worn springs, the new oil
just revealed a problem that already existed."
[image: View Post]Veefer800Canuck, on 19 April 2011 - 11:32 PM, said:
Folks will worry that big Cat engines only turn 1800 RPM while bikes spin at 12,000, but remember, that 500 HP CAT engine also has a turbocharger hanging off the side, and it is spinning at tens of thousands of RPMS, being lubricated by the same oil.True Rob... but a spinning shaft in a turbocharger will not need an
anti foaming additive like a 12,000 reciprocating engine needs...
Diesel oils are not the best you can do for your high RPM engine
because they tend to resist flow more than car or motorcycle oils...
remember flow is what lubricates your engine not the extreme additive
package...
Shell Rotella T 0 40 synthetic oil...
At 40�C / 104�F viscosity = 86.2
At 100�C / 212�F viscosity = 14.9
Quote Mobil 1 0 40 synthetic oil...
At 40�C / 104�F viscosity = 80
At 100�C / 212�F viscosity = 14
Mobil 1 viscosity of 10W 30 synthetic oil...
At 40�C / 104�F viscosity = 62
At 100�C / 212�F viscosity = 10
[image: View Post]DougFromIndy, on 19 April 2011 - 11:32 PM, said:
MC oil is different than auto oil because it is SHEAR STABLE.Thats oil can marketing and thats deceptive...
If you want shear stable oil then you want 100% synthetic oils which are
more shear stable than straight mineral oils...
Thats because a multigrade mineral based oil is made from a 10 weight
oil and has VI improvers added to thicken the product in a 212�F
engine. It acts as a 30 weight oil when hot.... whereas A 100%
synthetic oil is based on a 30 weight oil. This is unlike the
counterpart mineral oil based on a 10 weight oil. There is no VI
improver needed. The oil is already correct for the normal operating
temperature of 212�F. It will never thin because oil molecules do not
break down... just the additives. Generally, the synthetic oils do not
have VI improvers so have less to lose... yet synthetics have the same
long term problem as the mineral based oil. They both thicken with
extended age.
Synthetic oils are derived in the laboratory. They are pure... usually
nearly clear. whereas mineral based motor oils as a distilled,
concentrated product. The impurities need to be removed from the raw
petroleum. These oils are therefore less clean and contain many
impurities.
There are some properties of synthetic oils that actually result is
less wear than with mineral oils. These help increase your HP as well.
Due to a reduction of internal friction of the synthetic oil your
engine will run a bit cooler. Wear increases as temperature increases,
all other things being constant.
If you believe that most wear happens during start up before warm up
then the main advantage that the 100% synthetic has over the mineral
based oil is the ability to lubricate at startup. Both types of oil
have the same specifications at 104�F 212�F and 302�F. It is the
startup viscosity characteristics that separate these oils. 100%
Synthetic oils do not thicken as much on cooling. They have better
fluidity as the temperature drops...
So in conclusion 100% synthetics maybe worth the extra cost if you
like these advantages...
1 No VI (viscosity improvers) to shear down between the gears...
2 Less internal friction and heat equals more HP...
3 Ability to lubricate quicker at start up...
How does an oil 'lose' some of its viscosity in a engine?
Shear stability is a measure of the amount of viscosity an oil may
lose during operation. Oil experiences very high stresses in certain
areas of the engine such as in the oil pump, cam shaft area , piston
rings, and any other areas where two mating surface areas squeeze the
oil film out momentarily . Most multigrade engine oils contain special
types of additives, called Viscosity Index Improvers, which are
composed of very large, viscosity-controlling molecules. As the oil
passes through the engine, these molecules are permanently sheared or
torn apart over time, causing the additive to lose its
viscosity-contributing advantages which reduces the oils ability to
maintain its higher number. ie.. 10w30 ,
Synth Oils do not rely as much on special Viscosity Index Improver
additives and will experience little permanent viscosity loss.
If you are referring to our tranny gears that shear down oil and thus
degrading it... well I believe that only happens to mineral oils (non sythentic)
because multi grade mineral oils are made from a 10 weight oil and have VI
(viscosity improvers) added so it will act like a 30 weight at 212�F operating
temps... whereas multi grade synthetics oils are based on a 30 weight oil and
do not have VI (viscosity improvers) added... synthetics are already correct
for the normal operating temperature of 212� F... which is the viscosity of 10
after you warm up your oil... so it's worth the extra cost for synthetics in a
engine that shares the same oil with plain bearings and gears because it will
never thin below a 30 weight... there are no VI improvers to shear down...
but as test have shown at Blackstone Labs... both synthetics and mineral oils
thicken with extended age... unless there is a heavy blow by of unburnt gas
to dilute the oil...
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 20 April 2011 - 01:41 AM, said:
[image: View Post]DougFromIndy, on 19 April 2011 - 11:32 PM, said:
MC oil is different than auto oil because it is SHEAR STABLE.Thats oil can marketing and thats deceptive...
If you want shear stable oil then you want 100% synthetic oils which are
more shear stable than straight mineral oils...
Thats because a multigrade mineral based oil is made from a 10 weight
oil and has VI improvers added to thicken the product in a 212�F
engine. It acts as a 30 weight oil when hot.... whereas A 100%
synthetic oil is based on a 30 weight oil. This is unlike the
counterpart mineral oil based on a 10 weight oil. There is no VI
improver needed. The oil is already correct for the normal operating
temperature of 212�F. It will never thin because oil molecules do not
break down... just the additives. Generally, the synthetic oils do not
have VI improvers so have less to lose... yet synthetics have the same
long term problem as the mineral based oil. They both thicken with
extended age.
Synthetic oils are derived in the laboratory. They are pure... usually
nearly clear. whereas mineral based motor oils as a distilled,
concentrated product. The impurities need to be removed from the raw
petroleum. These oils are therefore less clean and contain many
impurities.
There are some properties of synthetic oils that actually result is
less wear than with mineral oils. These help increase your HP as well.
Due to a reduction of internal friction of the synthetic oil your
engine will run a bit cooler. Wear increases as temperature increases,
all other things being constant.
If you believe that most wear happens during start up before warm up
then the main advantage that the 100% synthetic has over the mineral
based oil is the ability to lubricate at startup. Both types of oil
have the same specifications at 104�F 212�F and 302�F. It is the
startup viscosity characteristics that separate these oils. 100%
Synthetic oils do not thicken as much on cooling. They have better
fluidity as the temperature drops...
So in conclusion 100% synthetics maybe worth the extra cost if you
like these advantages...
1 No VI (viscosity improvers) to shear down between the gears...
2 Less internal friction and heat equals more HP...
3 Ability to lubricate quicker at start up...
How does an oil 'lose' some of its viscosity in a engine?
Shear stability is a measure of the amount of viscosity an oil may
lose during operation. Oil experiences very high stresses in certain
areas of the engine such as in the oil pump, cam shaft area , piston
rings, and any other areas where two mating surface areas squeeze the
oil film out momentarily . Most multigrade engine oils contain special
types of additives, called Viscosity Index Improvers, which are
composed of very large, viscosity-controlling molecules. As the oil
passes through the engine, these molecules are permanently sheared or
torn apart over time, causing the additive to lose its
viscosity-contributing advantages which reduces the oils ability to
maintain its higher number. ie.. 10w30 ,
Synth Oils do not rely as much on special Viscosity Index Improver
additives and will experience little permanent viscosity loss.
If you are referring to our tranny gears that shear down oil and thus
degrading it... well I believe that only happens to mineral oils (non sythentic)
because multi grade mineral oils are made from a 10 weight oil and have VI
(viscosity improvers) added so it will act like a 30 weight at 212�F operating
temps... whereas multi grade synthetics oils are based on a 30 weight oil and
do not have VI (viscosity improvers) added... synthetics are already correct
for the normal operating temperature of 212� F... which is the viscosity of 10
after you warm up your oil... so it's worth the extra cost for synthetics in a
engine that shares the same oil with plain bearings and gears because it will
never thin below a 30 weight... there are no VI improvers to shear down...
but as test have shown at Blackstone Labs... both synthetics and mineral oils
thicken with extended age... unless there is a heavy blow by of unburnt gas
to dilute the oil...
But should I change out my ABS brake fluid to a synthetic DOT-3? :goofy:
Just kiddin' ya BLS! All good points, and it's something that I agree with you on. :cheerleader:
Here is the easy answer I give everyone who ask me this.
My VFR cost me $14,000 new in 2007. If a liter of oil that says for motorcycle on it cost me a few bucks more per liter I'm thinking its a good investment, to protect my investment.
My VFR cost me $14,000 new in 2007. If a liter of oil that says for motorcycle on it cost me a few bucks more per liter I'm thinking its a good investment, to protect my investment.
[image: View Post]landlover, on 19 April 2011 - 11:15 PM, said:
Has anyone on here used car oil in there motorcycle or VFR? Did anything feel different or did the clutch go bad sooner than expected, was the oil tested when it was changed and what were the results? Keep reading your not supposed to use car oil in motorcycles and it makes sense because if the clutch plates but wanted to ask the professionals on here, is there any concrete proof, car oil is bad for a motorcycle?[image: View Post]FROSTIE, on 20 April 2011 - 07:06 AM, said:
[image: View Post]landlover, on 19 April 2011 - 11:15 PM, said:
Has anyone on here used car oil in there motorcycle or VFR? Did anything feel different or did the clutch go bad sooner than expected, was the oil tested when it was changed and what were the results? Keep reading your not supposed to use car oil in motorcycles and it makes sense because if the clutch plates but wanted to ask the professionals on here, is there any concrete proof, car oil is bad for a motorcycle?A good place to look at oil analysis is www.bobistheoilguy.com where people are divided over using car oil, diesel oil, or motorcycle oil.
It's interesting to see how all the oils compare and how long some of those people run them as well.
I have been using either Rotella, Mobil 1Delvac, or Chevron Delo 15W40 depending on which is on sale at walmart with a Bosch 3323 filter.
My bike runs great and I ride/commute year round to school here in the valley of Arizona.
It's interesting to see how all the oils compare and how long some of those people run them as well.
I have been using either Rotella, Mobil 1Delvac, or Chevron Delo 15W40 depending on which is on sale at walmart with a Bosch 3323 filter.
My bike runs great and I ride/commute year round to school here in the valley of Arizona.
Shell Rotella T6 Synthetic is JASO MA Certified and can be picked up at Wally World at real world prices!
http://en.wikipedia....Shell_Rotella_T
http://en.wikipedia....Shell_Rotella_T
Thank you BLS. I get so tired of people spitting out rhetoric provided by marketing schemes. And as for cost...a quart of full synthetic 10W/40 Mobile 1 motorcycle was $8 last time I looked. A 5 quart jug of 10W/40 high mileage full synthetic Mobil 1 (non-energy conservative) was $22 (these are not up to date prices). Doing the math for a 3.2 quart oil change I save $10 and have 1 quart more all said and done just because I drop the word motorcycle off the name.
25K miles (for a total of over 50K to date) and my clutch is just starting to slip. :beatdeadhorse:
25K miles (for a total of over 50K to date) and my clutch is just starting to slip. :beatdeadhorse:
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 20 April 2011 - 01:02 AM, said:
Mr.RC45's clutch began slipping during the 25,000 miles mark and onlyduring WFO (wide full throttle) in error I could have blamed the oil
but I kept the oil and replaced the clutch pack with aftermarket EBC
plates... "
:ohmy: HUH?
What gives?
Who ever replaces clutch pack?
I remember a very helpful write-up by certain shop explaining that there is no need to replace - only to scuff the glaze off. :cool:
I'm still gona give it a try one day soon :fing02:
P.S.
Given all the other things that may negatively affect the longevity of a motorcycle engine, flavor of oil is irrelevant. This is all the information one ever needs to know about oil.
Not trying to prove anything or disprove anything, just adding anecdotal evidence. Purchased 2004 VFR with 24k miles. Unknown oil by PO. Have changed oil at least every 3k miles since. First few changes used Mobil 1 4T 10W/40 then lately have used Rotella T6 5W-40, both full synthetics. Now have 37k miles and NO clutch slippage and have had the bike on the track 5 days during that time.
[image: View Post]2thdr, on 20 April 2011 - 10:02 AM, said:
Not trying to prove anything or disprove anything, just adding anecdotal evidence. Purchased 2004 VFR with 24k miles. Unknown oil by PO. Have changed oil at least every 3k miles since. First few changes used Mobil 1 4T 10W/40 then lately have used Rotella T6 5W-40, both full synthetics. Now have 37k miles and NO clutch slippage and have had the bike on the track 5 days during that time.I have been running Rotella T in all 3 bikes for a long time with no problems but that don't make it right.
If I get Larry's point he would prefer a 10-30 or 5-30 weight full sythetic oil?
I agree that saving a few bucks when you have 20 thousand dollars worth of motocycles is .....
Dave
[image: View Post]PaleRider000, on 20 April 2011 - 10:57 AM, said:
[image: View Post]2thdr, on 20 April 2011 - 10:02 AM, said:
Not trying to prove anything or disprove anything, just adding anecdotal evidence. Purchased 2004 VFR with 24k miles. Unknown oil by PO. Have changed oil at least every 3k miles since. First few changes used Mobil 1 4T 10W/40 then lately have used Rotella T6 5W-40, both full synthetics. Now have 37k miles and NO clutch slippage and have had the bike on the track 5 days during that time.I have been running Rotella T in all 3 bikes for a long time with no problems but that don't make it right.
If I get Larry's point he would prefer a 10-30 or 5-30 weight full sythetic oil?
I agree that saving a few bucks when you have 20 thousand dollars worth of motocycles is .....
Dave
I completely respect Larry's expertise and opinions, but really, what's the difference between a 5W-40 JASO MA certified full synthetic, and the 10W-40 that mother Honda recommends? Larry himself says: "I've been running Mobil 1 energy conserving 10 30 since 1998..."
Last time I bought Rotella T6, it was $18 for a gallon, or $4.50 a quart. Not as expensive as Mobil 1 for sure, but are you suggesting I'm "cheap"?
[image: View Post]2thdr, on 20 April 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:
Last time I bought Rotella T6, it was $18 for a gallon, or $4.50 a quart. Not as expensive as Mobil 1 for sure, but are you suggesting I'm "cheap"?At 3 or 4 gallons for all the bikes we have it adds up:)
:lurk: ...............
Soooooooooooo, since we're on the subject, I was wondering if BLS or anyone more competent than me can shed some light on semi-synthetic oils? Are we paying for marketing? Does it have anything than regular oil doesn't? How does it compare to synthetic?
Thanks for the light,
C
Thanks for the light,
C
[image: View Post]PolarBear, on 20 April 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:
Soooooooooooo, since we're on the subject, I was wondering if BLS or anyone more competent than me can shed some light on semi-synthetic oils? Are we paying for marketing? Does it have anything than regular oil doesn't? How does it compare to synthetic?Thanks for the light,
C
I am curious on that point as well.
I tried Rotella 5w40 in my bike twice and ran it for about 3000 miles each time, it seemed like after the first 1000 miles shifting suffered some. I checked the chain it was fine and recently
I changed the fluid in my clutch line so that wasn't the issue.
Its an awesome oil I used in in my 08 VW but, I guess my 4th Gen didn't like it too much..
I love reading BLS threads the guy does his homework!
:beatdeadhorse:
:beatdeadhorse:
:beatdeadhorse:
You are either going to do the research and find an independent source with valid information or you are going to believe what ever marketing scheme the oil industry is going to feed you. BLS's information has been validated by independent sources as well as practical experience. Before I found this site I also did an extensive search for information. I have not run motorcycle branded oil on any bike I have ever owned and I have yet had an engine/wet clutch fail on me. Good old 10w/40 (or 20w/50 during the heat of summer if you can find it in the automotive world on the shelf) Mobil 1 has always worked fine for me.
I tried the Rotella T on my VFR a couple of times but shifting was harder and the engine ran rougher each time. I switched back over to Mobil 1 synthetic with a new filter and everything smoothed out to normal. Regardless, the point of the thread is you don't have to worry about using automotive oil in your bike. Choose your flavor Shell, Mobil 1, Castrol, what ever else, pick the appropriate weight, and try it. You will know quickly enough if there are any issues.
Most importantly....do the research. Never take anything we have to say as gospel. I guarantee almost none of us are oil experts and most likely spouting our opinions. I only state what I have done based on what I have read myself. Nothing anyone here has to say is going to change my mind based on the real world results I have had. :cool:
:beatdeadhorse:
:beatdeadhorse:
You are either going to do the research and find an independent source with valid information or you are going to believe what ever marketing scheme the oil industry is going to feed you. BLS's information has been validated by independent sources as well as practical experience. Before I found this site I also did an extensive search for information. I have not run motorcycle branded oil on any bike I have ever owned and I have yet had an engine/wet clutch fail on me. Good old 10w/40 (or 20w/50 during the heat of summer if you can find it in the automotive world on the shelf) Mobil 1 has always worked fine for me.
I tried the Rotella T on my VFR a couple of times but shifting was harder and the engine ran rougher each time. I switched back over to Mobil 1 synthetic with a new filter and everything smoothed out to normal. Regardless, the point of the thread is you don't have to worry about using automotive oil in your bike. Choose your flavor Shell, Mobil 1, Castrol, what ever else, pick the appropriate weight, and try it. You will know quickly enough if there are any issues.
Most importantly....do the research. Never take anything we have to say as gospel. I guarantee almost none of us are oil experts and most likely spouting our opinions. I only state what I have done based on what I have read myself. Nothing anyone here has to say is going to change my mind based on the real world results I have had. :cool:
Heck!, why even mess with car oil in your MC. Just get an MC specific oil and be done with it!.......no worries.....no pain...... :dry: ........AND THE SAME GOES WITH COOLANT!
Oooh, I forgot to add.... :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:
Beck
95 VFR
Oooh, I forgot to add.... :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:
Beck
95 VFR
[quote name='landlover' timestamp='1303272942' post='773728']
Has anyone on here used car oil in there motorcycle or VFR? Did anything feel different or did the clutch go bad sooner than expected, was the oil tested when it was changed and what were the results? Keep reading your not supposed to use car oil in motorcycles and it makes sense because if the clutch plates but wanted to ask the professionals on here, is there any concrete proof, car oil is bad for a motorcycle?
[/quote
I think if you use the oil that is intended for a motorcycle you are not going to have trouble so why use another oil that may or may not be harmfull? When I worked as a diesel mechanic I saw engines that failed premaurly do to useing the wrong oil.
Has anyone on here used car oil in there motorcycle or VFR? Did anything feel different or did the clutch go bad sooner than expected, was the oil tested when it was changed and what were the results? Keep reading your not supposed to use car oil in motorcycles and it makes sense because if the clutch plates but wanted to ask the professionals on here, is there any concrete proof, car oil is bad for a motorcycle?
[/quote
I think if you use the oil that is intended for a motorcycle you are not going to have trouble so why use another oil that may or may not be harmfull? When I worked as a diesel mechanic I saw engines that failed premaurly do to useing the wrong oil.
[image: View Post]Ripper, on 20 April 2011 - 09:02 AM, said:
Shell Rotella T6 Synthetic is JASO MA Certified and can be picked up at Wally World at real world prices!http://en.wikipedia....Shell_Rotella_T
Know the difference between certified and mere oil can labeling...
JASO MA certified means Shell paid for the testing and licensing
fees... if they didn't certify and pay for the testing then Shell can
only claim their product meets or exceeds the standard... the process
to carry the official labels is expensive and most customers can not
tell the difference between the official certified seal and mere text
claiming it passed the test...
Official JASO MA certified seal...
[image: Posted Image]
![[image: Posted Image]](http://image.sportrider.com/f/8663876+w750+st0/146-0308-jasolabel-zoom.jpg){kind=link}
Text claiming their product meets or exceeds the JASO MA standard...
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![[image: Posted Image]](http://image.sportrider.com/f/8663918+w750+st0/146-0308-speclabel2-zoom.jpg){kind=link}
[image: View Post]FROSTIE, on 20 April 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:
I think if you use the oil that is intended for a motorcycle you are not going to have trouble so why use another oil that may or may not be harmfull? When I worked as a diesel mechanic I saw engines that failed premaurly do to useing the wrong oil. Because when I go to buy oil, it costs $10 per quart for Mobile 1 MC oil. The alternative is MUCH cheaper and this begs the question. Is the price diff. worth it? I have come to the conclusion that it is not. Not for any practical purpose. It is much more important to have "correct" oil in industrial applications, where engines do millions of miles. But certainly not for bikes, most of which never crack the 100K mark. Otherwise, this topic makes for a nice discussion.Oil threads are the gift that keeps on giving.... Tire threads too. Shoei vs Arai, leather vs. textiles, guantlets vs. shorties, Sargent vs. Corbin....
[image: View Post]Rice, on 20 April 2011 - 09:39 AM, said:
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 20 April 2011 - 01:02 AM, said:
Mr.RC45's clutch began slipping during the 25,000 miles mark and onlyduring WFO (wide full throttle) in error I could have blamed the oil
but I kept the oil and replaced the clutch pack with aftermarket EBC
plates... "
:ohmy: HUH?
What gives?
Who ever replaces clutch pack?
I remember a very helpful write-up by certain shop explaining that there is no need to replace - only to scuff the glaze off. :cool:
I'm still gona give it a try one day soon :fing02:
What gives is that I'm the worlds leading technical reference point
for the RC45... owners wanted to know what clutch packs work and what
clutch packs require shimming... and I did the testing and now I know
the answer... what I said earlier is still true... simple clutch
maintenance... something ever savoy owner did back in the 60s and
70s... will bring a slipping clutch to grips again...
http://www.vfrdiscus...__1#entry751480
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Its just fun to argue oil, its just like if a person is talking about politics everyone, everyone has an opinion.
We all latch onto these threads out of curiosity even though it is beating a dead horse. But, when you look at www.bobistheoilguy.com there you meet concrete proof that of someone
that has done an OCI of X amount of miles and has a used oil analysis say hey keep doing what your doing or bro stop this is bad.
Its cool to see the oil analysis because its a good basis on a decision that is more opinion based versus factual evidence.
Its just fun admit it!
I also like guys like BLS that do their research
http://www.calsci.co...ilterStudy.html
We all latch onto these threads out of curiosity even though it is beating a dead horse. But, when you look at www.bobistheoilguy.com there you meet concrete proof that of someone
that has done an OCI of X amount of miles and has a used oil analysis say hey keep doing what your doing or bro stop this is bad.
Its cool to see the oil analysis because its a good basis on a decision that is more opinion based versus factual evidence.
Its just fun admit it!
I also like guys like BLS that do their research
http://www.calsci.co...ilterStudy.html
I think its funny because the majority of people will spend all this money on "better" oil for longevity but sell the bike with less than 20k on the odo. Save the extra cash for the down payment on your next bike.
Dang!, life's just too short to worry about these things........ :dry:
Buy the MC oil and go riding!
Anyway, if your bike does blows up reeeal goood on you with car oil, who are you gonna point the finger at??
:beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:
Beck
95 VFR
Buy the MC oil and go riding!
Anyway, if your bike does blows up reeeal goood on you with car oil, who are you gonna point the finger at??
:beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:
Beck
95 VFR
I think its funny people will click on an oil thread because they are
curious to see what is happening... then feel anger when they discover
when something is really going on... do we really want to cap a lively debate???
curious to see what is happening... then feel anger when they discover
when something is really going on... do we really want to cap a lively debate???
[image: View Post]dweese, on 20 April 2011 - 06:55 AM, said:
Here is the easy answer I give everyone who ask me this.My VFR cost me $14,000 new in 2007. If a liter of oil that says for motorcycle on it cost me a few bucks more per liter I'm thinking its a good investment, to protect my investment.
Agree with you 110%, it's a couple dollars more and it gets changed once a year. Keep reading about people using car oil and to each their own but wanted to ask, regardless of what I read will probably stick with motorcycle oil, a motorcycle engine has a higher redline than ninety nine percent of cars, the oil is run though the gears and clutch, to me that's more work, it's a different animal.
So I suppose the answer is, yes you can but your not supposed to.
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 20 April 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Ripper, on 20 April 2011 - 09:02 AM, said:
Shell Rotella T6 Synthetic is JASO MA Certified and can be picked up at Wally World at real world prices!http://en.wikipedia....Shell_Rotella_T
Know the difference between certified and mere oil can labeling...
JASO MA certified means Shell paid for the testing and licensing
fees... if they didn't certify and pay for the testing then Shell can
only claim their product meets or exceeds the standard... the process
to carry the official labels is expensive and most customers can not
tell the difference between the official certified seal and mere text
claiming it passed the test...
Official JASO MA certified seal...
Text claiming their product meets or exceeds the JASO MA standard...
Damn if I didn't learn something again...I hate marketing vs. the real thing! Thanks again BLS!
[image: View Post]PACIFICMAN, on 20 April 2011 - 03:36 PM, said:
Oil threads are the gift that keeps on giving.... Tire threads too. Shoei vs Arai, leather vs. textiles, guantlets vs. shorties, Sargent vs. Corbin....Don't RRs, CCTs and stuck thermostats also fall in the same category as there never ever seem to be a final answer on how to fix them on VFRs......... :comp13:
Beck
95 VFR
[image: View Post]2thdr, on 20 April 2011 - 05:39 PM, said:
Damn if I didn't learn something again...I hate marketing vs. the real thing! Thanks again BLS!
You're welcome...
[image: View Post]2thdr, on 20 April 2011 - 05:39 PM, said:
[image: View Post]BusyLittleShop, on 20 April 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Ripper, on 20 April 2011 - 09:02 AM, said:
Shell Rotella T6 Synthetic is JASO MA Certified and can be picked up at Wally World at real world prices!http://en.wikipedia....Shell_Rotella_T
Know the difference between certified and mere oil can labeling...
JASO MA certified means Shell paid for the testing and licensing
fees... if they didn't certify and pay for the testing then Shell can
only claim their product meets or exceeds the standard... the process
to carry the official labels is expensive and most customers can not
tell the difference between the official certified seal and mere text
claiming it passed the test...
Official JASO MA certified seal...
Text claiming their product meets or exceeds the JASO MA standard...
Damn if I didn't learn something again...I hate marketing vs. the real thing! Thanks again BLS!
The following from the RTS T6 data sheet.
marketing hype???
API CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, C4, SM, SL, SH; ACEA E9; Caterpillar
ECF-3, ECF-2; Cummins CES 20081; DDC 93K218; Ford WSS
M2C171-E; JASO DH2, MA; Mack EO-0 Premium Plus; MAN 3275;
MB Approval 228.31; Volvo VDS-4
Seems to me if you claim a certain spec and folks use your product assuming it meets that spec you are opening a deep can of worms if it doesn't meet that spec and you're just "hypeing" the product. I think Shell (and their lawyers) are smarter than that. A large part of what Larry has noted above, I agree with, including his unalienable right use of whatever oil viscosity he sees fit and whatever warm-up routine works for him. Those two particular parts of his take on the motorcycle engine world, however, I would NOT do to my motorcycle.
Y (oil) MMV.
So Jim, (and I'm not attacking your argument, just asking your opinion) why do you think Shell wouldn't put the official certification seal on their packaging if they really have the right to? I guess maybe someone could settle this if they contacted JASO directly and asked, but my Japanese is kinda rusty!
So check this out...
JASO 4 cycle oil list
Don't see Rotella anywhere on the list. Only Shell Oil product is something called Shell Advantage.
JASO 4 cycle oil list
Don't see Rotella anywhere on the list. Only Shell Oil product is something called Shell Advantage.
Those are all reasonable questions, and frankly, I don't have an answer for them. I am curious though, I wonder why Shell (not exactly a babe in the oil refining woods) would include JASO - MA (or API CJ-4 or Cat ECF-3 or any of the rest of the specs they say it meets) in RTS's list of specs met if it doesn't meet them? Seems to me that's asking for serious legal trouble. I think they're too smart for that. Of course, it could be they tested the oil to the spec - found that it meets it and said so, but didn't get the official JASO
ARF ARF ARF
Seal of Approval. Why not? Good question. Beats me. Maybe JASO wants a King's Ransom to use our friendly seal. Whatever the case, in the end, I don't really think it's just marketing hype.
In the final analysis, it strikes me as a bit of a red herring as does the vast majority of the oil debate. Some folks will tell you with the conviction of a true believer that if you don't run a heavy 20-50, your VFR will crash and kill you, then burst into flames and kill you again. Others make the same claim about 0-30s and warm up and fuel choice and nitrogen in your tires and ... and the list could go on for days.
The reality of it is - how many people do you see claiming anywhere that they lost an engine to an oil related failure? 30 years ago, some friends and I ran an air cooled twin-cam 750F for two seasons of endurance racing. We ran it on GTX 10-40 and 20-50 depending on the ambient temperature in races from 4 to 12 hours (nope - no 24s for us). The infield at Texas World Speedway could hit 115 in July. The bike did far better than the riders. We'd get heat stroke, it never used a drop of oil as far as we could tell. At the end of the second season we retired it. I pulled the engine down before I sold it and it was perfect. Cross hatching looked like new, rings looked good as did the cams and head, the crank and rods and respective bearings and everything in the tranny (the clutch, too). Everything that could be mic'd (or plasti-gauged) was in the middle to tight end of the standard.
If 1982 vintage GTX could coax an aircooled engine through 2 seasons of 4 - 8 - 12 hour thrashing, running the thing 500 rpm into the red zone multiple times every lap with no measureable wear, I wonder what any modern oil can do with/for a modern engine? I'm not trying to abuse anybody, please, if it makes people feel better to run $20/qt oil in their bikes - that is really OK with me. If they want to run reclaimed salad oil, that's OK, too. I personally don't think it matters all that much. I do think, however, that voices who insist there's only one right answer to the question should be taken with a grain of salt.
ARF ARF ARF
Seal of Approval. Why not? Good question. Beats me. Maybe JASO wants a King's Ransom to use our friendly seal. Whatever the case, in the end, I don't really think it's just marketing hype.
In the final analysis, it strikes me as a bit of a red herring as does the vast majority of the oil debate. Some folks will tell you with the conviction of a true believer that if you don't run a heavy 20-50, your VFR will crash and kill you, then burst into flames and kill you again. Others make the same claim about 0-30s and warm up and fuel choice and nitrogen in your tires and ... and the list could go on for days.
The reality of it is - how many people do you see claiming anywhere that they lost an engine to an oil related failure? 30 years ago, some friends and I ran an air cooled twin-cam 750F for two seasons of endurance racing. We ran it on GTX 10-40 and 20-50 depending on the ambient temperature in races from 4 to 12 hours (nope - no 24s for us). The infield at Texas World Speedway could hit 115 in July. The bike did far better than the riders. We'd get heat stroke, it never used a drop of oil as far as we could tell. At the end of the second season we retired it. I pulled the engine down before I sold it and it was perfect. Cross hatching looked like new, rings looked good as did the cams and head, the crank and rods and respective bearings and everything in the tranny (the clutch, too). Everything that could be mic'd (or plasti-gauged) was in the middle to tight end of the standard.
If 1982 vintage GTX could coax an aircooled engine through 2 seasons of 4 - 8 - 12 hour thrashing, running the thing 500 rpm into the red zone multiple times every lap with no measureable wear, I wonder what any modern oil can do with/for a modern engine? I'm not trying to abuse anybody, please, if it makes people feel better to run $20/qt oil in their bikes - that is really OK with me. If they want to run reclaimed salad oil, that's OK, too. I personally don't think it matters all that much. I do think, however, that voices who insist there's only one right answer to the question should be taken with a grain of salt.
[image: View Post]vfrjim2002, on 21 April 2011 - 05:45 PM, said:
Those are all reasonable questions, and frankly, I don't have an answer for them. I am curious though, I wonder why Shell (not exactly a babe in the oil refining woods) would include JASO - MA (or API CJ-4 or Cat ECF-3 or any of the rest of the specs they say it meets) in RTS's list of specs met if it doesn't meet them? Seems to me that's asking for serious legal trouble. I think they're too smart for that. Of course, it could be they tested the oil to the spec - found that it meets it and said so, but didn't get the official JASOARF ARF ARF
Seal of Approval. Why not? Good question. Beats me. In the end, I don't really think it's just marketing hype.
In the final analysis, it strikes me as a bit of a red herring as does the vast majority of the oil debate. Some folks will tell you with the conviction of a true believer that if you don't run a heavy 20-50, your VFR will crash and kill you, then burst into flames and kill you again. Others make the same claim about 0-30s and warm up and fuel choice and nitrogen in your tires and ... and the list could go on for days.
The reality of it is - how many people do you see claiming anywhere that they lost an engine to an oil related failure? 30 years ago, some friends and I ran an air cooled twin-cam 750F for two seasons of endurance racing. We ran it on GTX 10-40 and 20-50 depending on the ambient temperature in races from 4 to 12 hours (nope - no 24s for us). The infield at Texas World Speedway could hit 115 in July. The bike did far better than the riders. We'd get heat stroke, it never used a drop of oil as far as we could tell. At the end of the second season we retired it. I pulled the engine down before I sold it and it was perfect. Cross hatching looked like new, rings looked good as did the cams and head, the crank and rods and respective bearings and everything in the tranny (the clutch, too). Everything that could be mic'd was in the middle to tight end of the standard.
If 1982 vintage GTX could coax an aircooled engine through 2 seasons of 4 - 8 - 12 hour thrashing, running the thing 500 rpm into the red zone multiple times every lap with no measureable wear, I wonder what any modern oil can do with/for a modern engine? I'm not trying to abuse anybody, please, if it makes people feel better to run $20/qt oil in their bikes - that is really OK with me. If they want to run reclaimed salad oil, that's OK, too. I personally don't think it matters all that much. I do think, however, that voices who insist there's only one right answer to the question should be taken with a grain of salt.
That is very cool anectdotal evidence! I'm from Oklahoma, so 100+ degree summers are no stranger to me...were you guys wearing leathers? Ugh! I don't pretend to know anything about all this stuff...I just think it's nice to hear from folks with experience like you and Larry @ BLS. I'm a mechanical midget and anything I read here increases my knowledge. Did you see the recent video circulating here that shows a photo shoot of a 1200VF tear down? The parts don't look so clean and/or in great condition to my inexperienced eyes...Wonder what oil they were running and under what conditions?
And Jim, just as another newbie question, what oil do you run in your VFR? I would like to think the Rotella T6 would be "good enough" for someone like me that probably will sell or trade my bike before 75k miles. I know Larry would disagree, but I'm also not a racer or an afficianado like him and lots of others here.
[image: View Post]2thdr, on 21 April 2011 - 05:53 PM, said:
That is very cool anectdotal evidence! I'm from Oklahoma, so 100+ degree summers are no stranger to me...were you guys wearing leathers? Ugh! I don't pretend to know anything about all this stuff...I just think it's nice to hear from folks with experience like you and Larry @ BLS. I'm a mechanical midget and anything I read here increases my knowledge. Did you see the recent video circulating here that shows a photo shoot of a 1200VF tear down? The parts don't look so clean and/or in great condition to my inexperienced eyes...Wonder what oil they were running and under what conditions?And Jim, just as another newbie question, what oil do you run in your VFR? I would like to think the Rotella T6 would be "good enough" for someone like me that probably will sell or trade my bike before 75k miles. I know Larry would disagree, but I'm also not a racer or an afficianado like him and lots of others here.
Again, those are really good questions. It would be interesting to hear/see what the maintenance protocol was on that 1200. I've run my '02 on a number of different oils. I've used the old RTS formula and T6, I've used M1 15-50 gold cap, I've used M1 V-twin (when ScootR insisted it was the only thing to pour in a crankcase) and M1 - 4T. I've probably put something else in it once or twice. Larry's been around the block several times and I'm sure he has good reasons for what he does and suggests. I just don't think it's the only path to salvation.
To be honest, I really don't think it makes a whole lot of difference. I personally wouldn't run a X-30 where I live. An oil that specs out at 10 @ 100C in its virgin state doesn't leave a lot of room for error. But, if I did, I suspect the bike would do OK. My advice - run a good x-40, change it at 3,000 to 4,000 miles (this may be overdoing it if you run a synthetic), keep on top of the electrics (the only real weakness the bike has), keep the rubber side more or less firmly attached to the surface of the planet, and I suspect you'll do just fine.
[image: View Post]2thdr, on 21 April 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:
Don't see Rotella anywhere on the list. Only Shell Oil product is something called Shell Advantage.That will be Shell Advance, at least that's what the Shell motorcycle oil is called here. Here Shell doesn't sell oil named Rotella.
On the topic of what is, or rather, isn't on the JASO list. Some notable exceptions:
Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w-50
Any Amsoil Products
:lurk: :beatdeadhorse:
Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w-50
Any Amsoil Products
:lurk: :beatdeadhorse:
Whatever happened to STP for those older loose oil burning engines? :lurk:
End of thread · 50 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 28 May 2011