Rear shock

Anyone know the stock spring rate?

[image: View Post]Alang, on 29 April 2011 - 08:48 PM, said:

Anyone know the stock spring rate?

When I had my shock swapped out for a Penske by Jim Lindemann, I think he said it measured around 900 lbs/inch but I'm a bit fuzzy on the number. I know he spec'd a 1200 lb spring for the Penske, but I'm considering changing to a bit softer spring for my weight.

900 lb/in is 16.1kg/mm
that seems very stiff, and a big jump to 1200 lb/in, which is 21.5kg/mm
I think a 2008 CBR1000 uses around a 10 or 12 kg/mm spring. Of course that is a lot lighter bike, and maybe the linkage ratios are different.
Thanks

[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 29 April 2011 - 11:23 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Alang, on 29 April 2011 - 08:48 PM, said:

Anyone know the stock spring rate?

When I had my shock swapped out for a Penske by Jim Lindemann, I think he said it measured around 900 lbs/inch but I'm a bit fuzzy on the number. I know he spec'd a 1200 lb spring for the Penske, but I'm considering changing to a bit softer spring for my weight.

I have a Penske with a 1100 lbs spring. I weigh ~150 and with solo riding seems to be stiff enough. The Penske has made a significant difference for the bette in how the bike handles. With the stock shock the rear would want to "pogo" when pushed hard through the turns. Now, with the Penske, it's much more controlled and compliant. It also takes the bumbs much better. I had this same shock and spring on my VFR800...when I put it on the VFR1200 I got the sag numbers to work but it took more preload to do so.

[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 29 April 2011 - 11:23 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Alang, on 29 April 2011 - 08:48 PM, said:

Anyone know the stock spring rate?

When I had my shock swapped out for a Penske by Jim Lindemann, I think he said it measured around 900 lbs/inch but I'm a bit fuzzy on the number. I know he spec'd a 1200 lb spring for the Penske, but I'm considering changing to a bit softer spring for my weight.


Update: Today I had the stock spring measured by a suspension shop, it measured 1035 lb/in. The 1200 lb spring ultimately proved too stiff for my weight at 160 lbs plus gear. I had the stock spring mounted on my Penske shock to replace the 1200 lb spring and it was just what the doctor ordered. Much more compliant and forgiving on bumps compared to the 1200 lb. but with the Penske, the compression and rebound settings makes for a very plush yet stable ride thru the twisties.

Thanks for the replies; this gives us a starting database for spring rates for the VFR1200. I'm 165 w/o gear so I think the stock spring rate is about right for solo riding w/o luggage.
I'm sure an Ohlins or Penske shock is of much better quality than the stocker. Ohlins rates in lb/in: 971,1028, 1085, 1142, 1199.

[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 07 May 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 29 April 2011 - 11:23 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Alang, on 29 April 2011 - 08:48 PM, said:

Anyone know the stock spring rate?

When I had my shock swapped out for a Penske by Jim Lindemann, I think he said it measured around 900 lbs/inch but I'm a bit fuzzy on the number. I know he spec'd a 1200 lb spring for the Penske, but I'm considering changing to a bit softer spring for my weight.


Update: Today I had the stock spring measured by a suspension shop, it measured 1035 lb/in. The 1200 lb spring ultimately proved too stiff for my weight at 160 lbs plus gear. I had the stock spring mounted on my Penske shock to replace the 1200 lb spring and it was just what the doctor ordered. Much more compliant and forgiving on bumps compared to the 1200 lb. but with the Penske, the compression and rebound settings makes for a very plush yet stable ride thru the twisties.

[image: View Post]Alang, on 08 May 2011 - 07:25 AM, said:

Thanks for the replies; this gives us a starting database for spring rates for the VFR1200. I'm 165 w/o gear so I think the stock spring rate is about right for solo riding w/o luggage.
I'm sure an Ohlins or Penske shock is of much better quality than the stocker. Ohlins rates in lb/in: 971,1028, 1085, 1142, 1199.

[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 07 May 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 29 April 2011 - 11:23 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Alang, on 29 April 2011 - 08:48 PM, said:

Anyone know the stock spring rate?

When I had my shock swapped out for a Penske by Jim Lindemann, I think he said it measured around 900 lbs/inch but I'm a bit fuzzy on the number. I know he spec'd a 1200 lb spring for the Penske, but I'm considering changing to a bit softer spring for my weight.


Update: Today I had the stock spring measured by a suspension shop, it measured 1035 lb/in. The 1200 lb spring ultimately proved too stiff for my weight at 160 lbs plus gear. I had the stock spring mounted on my Penske shock to replace the 1200 lb spring and it was just what the doctor ordered. Much more compliant and forgiving on bumps compared to the 1200 lb. but with the Penske, the compression and rebound settings makes for a very plush yet stable ride thru the twisties.


You don't need to limit yourself to Ohlin springs. Eibach and Hyperco springs offer other options as well.

I should also mention that I have 1kg/mm linear springs in front, these replaced the stock progressive springs (see my other threads about my Lindemann reworked forks).

This thread has been really helpful. And has saved me some money to boot. Thanks!

I too have Lindemann-reworked forks and a Penske shock. Jim Lindemann gave me a 1200# shock spring and 1.05 fork springs. But I just couldn't convince myself that stiffer springs were the answer to the questions I had. So when I started reading this thread I had already decided to replace my new springs with stock rate springs front and rear. Figured it'd cost me about $100 per end, but I was prepared to do it. Dunno why it didn't occur to me that the stock shock spring would fit on my Penske, but Solomoto's comment that it would was a pleasant revelation. Instead of trying to figure out what the stock spring rate was (more on that in a moment), and replicating it in a Hyperco or something similar, I already had what i needed. And it is precisely the same rate as stock!

A bulb also lit in my brain when I called Lindemanns and asked him to send me a set of .95 fork springs. To do so, he wanted me to measure the length of the stock fork spring and it's inside diameter top and bottom so he could modify one of his springs to its dimensions. Hmm. Why pay good money to have a similar rate spring modified to be like a stock spring when I already had stock springs that I could use? I may be proven wrong, but I believe that Lindemann leaves the stock spring perches alone, and that retrofitting the stock springs will be a snap. And, again, will give me exactly what I'm looking for as a baseline: Stock spring rates to go with my newly adjustable forks.

I may eventually decide that stock springs aren't what I want, but while I'm doing development work to solve the harshness and woodenness and lack of feeling I felt in the stock setup, I really want only to change one major variable at a time. It's all my brain can process. But unless I start dragging hard parts or start bottoming out and/or topping out on more than just an occasional basis or experiencing something else that makes me think spring rate is a problem that needs solving, I won't.

I'll let you know how it goes. My hunches are that I won't find anything that Solomoto and others haven't already talked about. That Honda got it right enough as far as spring rates for most of us. But that they got it wrong when it came to damper settings, and they got it particularly wrong when it came to [non-adjustable] compression damper settings. Time will tell.

PS regarding spring rates: As Solomoto said, the stock front springs are progressive. So is the stock rear spring. My local suspension guru told me that the front springs were .93s and the rear was 966#. But the rear actually has three rates, one in its first half inch or so of compression, another in its next half inch or so of compression and a third after that. The fork springs also have more than one rate. If I can ever find someone patient enough to work with me to measure the various rates, or find a spring rate checker that I can use to do it myself, I'll do it. And share that information here.

[image: View Post]ddr, on 11 May 2011 - 10:05 PM, said:

This thread has been really helpful. And has saved me some money to boot. Thanks!

I too have Lindemann-reworked forks and a Penske shock. Jim Lindemann gave me a 1200# shock spring and 1.05 fork springs. But I just couldn't convince myself that stiffer springs were the answer to the questions I had. So when I started reading this thread I had already decided to replace my new springs with stock rate springs front and rear. Figured it'd cost me about $100 per end, but I was prepared to do it. Dunno why it didn't occur to me that the stock shock spring would fit on my Penske, but Solomoto's comment that it would was a pleasant revelation. Instead of trying to figure out what the stock spring rate was (more on that in a moment), and replicating it in a Hyperco or something similar, I already had what i needed. And it is precisely the same rate as stock!

A bulb also lit in my brain when I called Lindemanns and asked him to send me a set of .95 fork springs. To do so, he wanted me to measure the length of the stock fork spring and it's inside diameter top and bottom so he could modify one of his springs to its dimensions. Hmm. Why pay good money to have a similar rate spring modified to be like a stock spring when I already had stock springs that I could use? I may be proven wrong, but I believe that Lindemann leaves the stock spring perches alone, and that retrofitting the stock springs will be a snap. And, again, will give me exactly what I'm looking for as a baseline: Stock spring rates to go with my newly adjustable forks.

I may eventually decide that stock springs aren't what I want, but while I'm doing development work to solve the harshness and woodenness and lack of feeling I felt in the stock setup, I really want only to change one major variable at a time. It's all my brain can process. But unless I start dragging hard parts or start bottoming out and/or topping out on more than just an occasional basis or experiencing something else that makes me think spring rate is a problem that needs solving, I won't.

I'll let you know how it goes. My hunches are that I won't find anything that Solomoto and others haven't already talked about. That Honda got it right enough as far as spring rates for most of us. But that they got it wrong when it came to damper settings, and they got it particularly wrong when it came to [non-adjustable] compression damper settings. Time will tell.

PS regarding spring rates: As Solomoto said, the stock front springs are progressive. So is the stock rear spring. My local suspension guru told me that the front springs were .93s and the rear was 966#. But the rear actually has three rates, one in its first half inch or so of compression, another in its next half inch or so of compression and a third after that. The fork springs also have more than one rate. If I can ever find someone patient enough to work with me to measure the various rates, or find a spring rate checker that I can use to do it myself, I'll do it. And share that information here.


Hey DDR,
Good post, sounds like you are getting a handle on the suspension tuning. I spent a fair amount of time tuning and adjusting here and there to optimize the response, but I concluded the back spring was a bit too stiff after exhausting the variables. Mine was the first VFR1200 Lindemann did and it typically takes some fine tuning to achieve the optimal solution, unfortunately Jim closed up shop before I could get it where I wanted it.

A couple points: you're right about the stock front springs, they are progressive but the stock rear spring is linear (progressive springs have a visible tapered pitch), the linkage takes care of the progressive part. To fit the stock spring on the Penske, I had Evolution Suspension in my local area remove it from the stock shock, measure the spring weight, and mount it, but a slight modification was needed to make the spring fit. They had to grind off a small amount from the inner diameter of the spring at the bottom end in order to fit over the bottom pedestal. Other than that, it was a good fit.

The front springs are linear 1kg/mm and these feel like the right weight especially combined with the adjustable compression damping. The stock progressives felt too soft for me, especially with the too soft stock compression damping.

With the lighter rear springs, the ride is now fantastic! The harshness that I couldn't quite tune out is gone. It's now feels like the equal of my suspension gold standard which happens to be my 98 VFR800 with Lindemann tuned forks and Penske shock.

For what it's worth here are my current settings:

Front:
sag: 40mm
Compression: 5 1/4 T out
Rebound: 3 1/4 T out
Fork stanchions elevated 8mm above stock position
(Ride height is original since stock sag was 48mm)
Linear springs at 1kg/mm

Rear:
Sag: 32mm
Compression: 19 clicks out
Rebound: 14 clicks out
Stock spring at 1035 lb/in.

These settings give me a nice comfy ride over typical road bumps, yet keeps the bike stable in the twisties at street sane speeds. The 32mm rear sag gives the bike a moderately light turn in response.
With the stock suspension, I had to set the rebound between comfy but wallowy, or harsh but stable. Having the proper springs and damping system makes all the difference.
Good luck on your suspension journey!

all good info; I'm about the same weight as solomoto, so his settings should be close for me.
What does Lindemann do to the forks? Is it a cartridge kit like the Ohlins? Because stock there are no compression damping adjustments (I think),
The damping of the stock suspension sucks. I know my VFR will never handle like my old 08 CBR1000, but I think it can be improved.
I'm going to add a Bazzaz FI and do the 1st & 2nd gear rewire myself at the end of this month. The on-off abrubtness is bad when accelerating
out of a slow corner in 2nd gear.

Hey Solomoto, thanks for the setup info. I'll use that as my baseline. But I know you'll understand when I test and fiddle and play from there. Partly just because I'm curious, partly because to me that's part of the fun, and partly just to get to know my bike better and see how it responds to various settings. I've got $2 grand invested, and it'd be a shame not to play with it, right? Someday maybe we can talk about it over a beer and exercise our biceps talking about it instead of our typing fingers. (Not that it matters much, but in person we could even arm wrestle over whether a spring needs to be tapered to be progressive!... ;-) Regardless, I really appreciate the work you've done blazing this particular trail. Anyone who's experiencing similar dissatisfaction with the way their 7th gen is sprung can learn a lot from re-reading your posts. Like Alang here...

Alang, to answer your questions, you are correct, the stock forks and shock are not adjustable for compression damping. As to how Lindemann does what he does, it's a bit of a mystery. Which is what makes a guru a guru, I think! What I do know is that he reworks the stock parts so that the left fork becomes adjustable for compression damping , and the right fork becomes the sole adjustment for rebound damping. Just like is fairly common on race bikes. I know he does NOT replace the stock cartridge, and I know he CAN"T be doing anything very elaborate, because he only charges $200 over the cost of a basic rebuild. No money in that for fancy machine work, new parts or the like. My local suspension guru knows Jim and said (if I heard him correctly) that he just inverts the shim stack in the left hand cartridge to make it adjustable in the opposite direction. He may also play with the shims while he's at it, and he may make modifications that don't cost anything (like drilling out the bottoming cup so it doesn't stop so abruptly), and he does play with fork oils and oil levels and all the other things tuners play with. But he doesn't do anything that costs very much money. As I found out, he even leaves the stock spring perches alone, and modifies the spring (if he needs to) to fit the stock perches instead of the other way around.

Whatever it is he does, it's a cost effective way to achieve everything I think needs to be achieved on 7th gen forks: It adds compression damping adjustments. And while he's at it he increases the range of adjustment available. There are other ways to achieve similar results, but I'm glad I went this particular route. Could I have gone with Ohlins or Race Tech or others and been as happy? Probably. But you should at least consider Lindemann. (I'm also happy with my triple clicker Penske. But that's a discussion for another active thread now playing nearby...)

Good luck deciding what to do. I'm convinced that the 7th gen is a really good bike with two annoying flaws: nonadjustable, badly set compression damping; and fuelling issues, especially at small throttle openings. Fortunately, both are relatively easily fixed.

that's a pretty clever trick doing that. Yea, Rossi's bike does the same; 1 comp and the other rebound.

[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 07 May 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Solomoto, on 29 April 2011 - 11:23 PM, said:

[image: View Post]Alang, on 29 April 2011 - 08:48 PM, said:

Anyone know the stock spring rate?

When I had my shock swapped out for a Penske by Jim Lindemann, I think he said it measured around 900 lbs/inch but I'm a bit fuzzy on the number. I know he spec'd a 1200 lb spring for the Penske, but I'm considering changing to a bit softer spring for my weight.


Update: Today I had the stock spring measured by a suspension shop, it measured 1035 lb/in. The 1200 lb spring ultimately proved too stiff for my weight at 160 lbs plus gear. I had the stock spring mounted on my Penske shock to replace the 1200 lb spring and it was just what the doctor ordered. Much more compliant and forgiving on bumps compared to the 1200 lb. but with the Penske, the compression and rebound settings makes for a very plush yet stable ride thru the twisties.


So would that be 18.5 kg/mm???

1035 lb/in = 18.52kg/mm yes

1200 lb/in = 18.90 kg/mm

Hmmmm sounds like it would do better on the VTEC... anyone got eye-to-eye length, or other measurments... ???

Doesn't seem to have a remote reservoir of any sort... piggyback or otherwise...

[image: Posted Image]

[image: View Post]Auspa�ol, on 15 May 2011 - 06:38 AM, said:

Hmmmm sounds like it would do better on the VTEC... anyone got eye-to-eye length, or other measurments... ???

Doesn't seem to have a remote reservoir of any sort... piggyback or otherwise...

[image: Posted Image]


Eye to eye is aprox 340 mm