Just came back from a deposition re my accident of 2 years ago and the lawyer asked me if I had initiated a controlled slide to stop sooner. I didn't.
He is going to use it to show that I didn't know what I was doing.
I understand the term as locking up the rear and actually low-siding prior to the impact.
I seriously doubt that this is going to bring anyone to a stop sooner than a full out braking.
All this technique is good for (IMHO)is when you are trying to scrub lots of speed and there is a gasoline carrier blocking the road in front and you have to slide under it in order to avoid a spectacular fiery crash. And there is a car full of bad guys chasing you. They are doomed. Naturally.
What say y'all?
Is controlled slide a good thing and in what cases would you use it (except the obvious).
Frankly I'd like to use the mechanical tools and braking of the bike rather than slide out of control on the ground. The 'controlled slide' is a worst-case scenario when there are no other options, or, you are being chased by bad/good guys a la "Fast and Furious".
[image: View Post]Rice, on 06 May 2011 - 12:41 PM, said:
Just came back from a deposition re my accident of 2 years ago and the lawyer asked me if I had initiated a controlled slide to stop sooner. I didn't.
He is going to use it to show that I didn't know what I was doing.
I understand the term as locking up the rear and actually low-siding prior to the impact.
I seriously doubt that this is going to bring anyone to a stop sooner than a full out braking.
All this technique is good for (IMHO)is when you are trying to scrub lots of speed and there is a gasoline carrier blocking the road in front and you have to slide under it in order to avoid a spectacular fiery crash. And there is a car full of bad guys chasing you. They are doomed. Naturally.
What say y'all?
Is controlled slide a good thing and in what cases would you use it (except the obvious).
What is the static coefficient of rubber versus the kinetic coefficient of metal and plastic? Static coefficients are always higher than kinetic, so a non locked wheel stop will always be quicker than a locked up tire. Ask anyone who slid the rear tire, hooked it back up and high sided how much better a non sliding tire sticks.
I don't know the coefficient of friction of plastic on asphalt versus rubber on asphalt, but I'm pretty sure there is a good reason why tire manufacturers are using rubber...
[image: View Post]Rice, on 06 May 2011 - 12:41 PM, said:
the lawyer asked me if I had initiated a controlled slide to stop sooner. I didn't.
Of course you didn't as there is no such thing.
Actually, there is, but it isn't what the lawyer is referring to.
It's called 'drifting'.
[image: View Post]V4 Rosso, on 06 May 2011 - 12:56 PM, said:
[image: View Post]Rice, on 06 May 2011 - 12:41 PM, said:
the lawyer asked me if I had initiated a controlled slide to stop sooner. I didn't.
Of course you didn't as there is no such thing.
[image: View Post]Rice, on 06 May 2011 - 12:41 PM, said:
Just came back from a deposition re my accident of 2 years ago and the lawyer asked me if I had initiated a controlled slide to stop sooner. I didn't.
He is going to use it to show that I didn't know what I was doing.
I understand the term as locking up the rear and actually low-siding prior to the impact.
I seriously doubt that this is going to bring anyone to a stop sooner than a full out braking.
All this technique is good for (IMHO)is when you are trying to scrub lots of speed and there is a gasoline carrier blocking the road in front and you have to slide under it in order to avoid a spectacular fiery crash. And there is a car full of bad guys chasing you. They are doomed. Naturally.
What say y'all?
Is controlled slide a good thing and in what cases would you use it (except the obvious).
Complete BS (almost makes me angry that people would think that)
The rubber of your tires are the best way to stop, if your bike falls over it is then sliding on the plastic body and will slide much much further than if you are applying brakes. Same goes for your gear, it slides and doesn't burn holes in the knees and elbows because it has a lower coefficient of friction, so you slide much farther as well.
If he's talking about locking up the tires and only sliding on them (but keeping upright) this is also slower to stop because of the previously mentioned coefficient of static vs kinetic friction.
Sounds to me like the lawyer needs a little education about riding a motorcycle. You should be prepared for the question again, with information from the many riding technique books available, showing that "laying her down" or even sliding the rear wheel is not the fastest way to stop. If it was ABS would go to full lock in an emergency.
I would contact Evergreen safety counsel or any other rider safety course and get the book they teach you from.
It says pretty much that a "controlled slide" is not recommended either is skidding. the difference between a panic stop and a normal stop is how far you squeeze the lever/pedal.
the rate at wich you apply the brakes needed is the same, its how much pressure at the end of the CONTROLLED stop that dictates how far a bike travels before it comes to a complete stop.
The reason vehicles now have anti lock brakes is because LOCKED OR SLIDING tires are NOT effective for quick stops and you can look up comparisons between anti lock and standard
brake stopping distances on simular vehicles and see the difference. If I am not mistaken antilock brakes are required on all new cars and trucks sold after 2010.(correction ??) why?? skidding and sliding
is out of control is the answer. (exceptions to the rule apply to gifted riders and drivers but on average it is true)
A few of our members here are Instructors at the safety courses and they can correct me (PLEASE!!!) if I am providing incorrect information.
Good luck on your case. get more info on the anti lock brake theory and prove to them that skidding or sliding as he called it make for LONGER stopping distances....
Hope this helps
and fellow members correct me if i am wrong.... thank you
Sounds to me like the lawyer knows exactly what he is doing. Who cares if he makes you look inexperienced as a byproduct of a dumb argument, thats just the kinda shit the court will buy, and you get off easier.
For the record, if your tires are skidding across pavement they are not stopping you with much efficiency at all, they have maximum traction/ stopping power when rolling.
PS: Controlled slides are only good for kids on BMX bikes in 80's movies.
Falls under the catagory of "Had to lay her down"
I wonder what dumb ass first uttered those words!!
My first thought was the Lawyer wanted him to say he was in a controlled slide, then was going to use that stopping technique as the reason he had the accident.
I will just add my two cents here.
First just to qualifiy my answer I am a police collision reconstructionist by training and have testified as an expert witness numerous times in court regrading collision reconstruction.
As those who have previously answered a locked sliding rear tire is not the way to go. A sliding tire will never be achieving the same level of friction (f) as a properly braked tire on the threshold of locking. Average road f for a locked tire (asphalt) is around .72g whereas a bike at/near threshold can achieve up to over 1g in abs and linked bike brakes. We did several days of testing and it was evident the order of braking is skidding/ standard bike at threshold/ linked brake bike at threshold and best abs full on braking.
ABS is designed to keep the wheel from locking and provide braking at threshold level - that is why on solid surface they outperform standard brakes on equivalent vehicle.
If this lawyer is going that route - either bring in an expert witness - I am sure there are some collision reconstruction firms somewhere in area - or see if you can get text book or SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) papers admited in court. Most books can be found on line as can a lot of SAE papers.
As well you may want to raise perception/reactio issues dfepending on circumstances i.e. if vehicle turned left in front of you standard P/R is 1.5 secs so take that times you speed in feet per second (mph x 1.4666 if I remember correctly) and it may show you had no chane. We use this time/distance arguement for many things in reconstructing collisions and often it shows one party had little to no chance to stop or react.
Hope that helps.
Thanks to all for the replies.
I feel vindicated.
Just to clarify; The lawyer who was questioning me is representing the insurance company and the owner of other vehicle that was involved.
Shortly after this exchange I left the room to get a drink of water and overheard the lawyer talking about another motorcycle accident he was handling and that the rider was talking about the benefits of controlled slide and how every motorcycle school was teaching the virtues of this technique. I told him that my school taught me no such thing.
In the meantime, he is convinced that this will be one of his aces during the trial.
If someone could point me in the direction of more or less official evidence of how ill advised this technique actually is I'd appreciate it.
Rice,
Here is an article with some good links in it as well as some discussion of motorcycle braking.
http://mfes.com/motorcyclebraking.html
Once you start sliding, you really aren't in control anymore, are you? Kind of seems like an oxymoron. :biggrin:
Like everyone said, this is ridiculous. It it were true, ABS would lock up all wheels...
Good luck!
C
If the insurance company is using a lawyer, I hope you have your own attorney too. He's out to screw you. You dont have much of a chance if you are flying solo.
Good luck
I'd fire that lawyer if he was working for me.
Zero slide/skidding = control not vice versa. Anyone with good experience driving bikes or cars would know that. The lawyer's just trying to convince himself that the hearsay he got on "controlled slide" is real. It must show a bit of desperation on their side to find anything to build the case against you. His theory can never be backed up by science so you are in good shape as long this lawyer does not get you all flustered and mess up your performance in the trial. I think he's just playing head games with you and hoping that the judge does not know anything about the benifits of avoiding wheel lock during panic braking.
I'd be most likely dead or permanently maimed by now if I follow that "controlled slide" panic braking methiod during the many times I had to stop or slow down real quick because of unpredictable conditions that presented themselves before me. The correct approach is proper brake modulation to avoid wheel locking be able to stop without crashing and maintain steering control.
Beck
95 VFR
I've had my MSF Ridercoach books for a week now for preperation of my upcoming class. I have seen nothing in the material where MSF teaches or supports a reason for a "controlled slide". Good luck with this.
That lawyer is ignorant. If he is your lawyer, fire him immediately. If not, discredit his argument. The VFRD forum is correct. Lawyer is idiot.
Thanks again for all the feedback.
The lawyer is for the other side, so I will wait to discredit him during the trial. Actually I'll let my lawer do it. He is better at it than me :biggrin:
I look at a controled slide(in this case I would call it a controled "braking" slide) would be to brake to you hear a chirp ; then release pressure ; then re-apply till the next chirp ; repeat until stopped.
If referring to laying the bike down, I'd call that a controlled crash.
As for when is it to your advantage to lay the bike down, that would be when all else has been done and you want the bike to hit what ever before you hit it.
Studies have shown that the bike will go further if it's on it's side. The reason riders think this must work is they're getting mislead by people that slam on their rear to hard and it lays down, so as not to sound like they don't know how to stop, they'll say they layed the bike down on purpose.
So if you don't know this, the lawyer can claim you are unskilled. Is your lawyer a MC lawyer?
If not then 'splain him the facts so he'll know how to rebut.
[image: View Post]PolarBear, on 06 May 2011 - 02:22 PM, said:
Like everyone said, this is ridiculous. It it were true, ABS would lock up all wheels...
Good luck!
C
This is a very incisive point... sliding, as good as you may be at controlling that (few are), would never stop the bike as quickly as not sliding... ABS is the proof of this. Sldiing is usually a result of incorrect braking (too much brake for the conditions)... and is not necessarily an indication of how good a braker/rider you are... if you don't have time to brake you will probably end up braking too hard in an effort to stop.. this is probably due to there really not being enough time/space, unless you've an extremely itchy trigger finger... only top level professionals really learn how to slide or drift in a contrable fashion. But either way, if caught by surprise, it can hardly be your fault that the other vehicle manouvered in a way that left you with insufficient time... although one has to keep a safety distance. The latter, is a very relative concept.
If you have a licence to ride a bike, the state has deemed yo fit and able, well-trained enough to ride on public roads, therefore you are a capable rider in the eyes of the law. Unless you have a record for reckless driving. So the intent to deem you an insufficient rider should hold no water.
He's clutching at straws. Is there a legal precedent to support his argument?? Get a hold of the requirements/manual for passing a motorcycle licence. This is all that should be applied to you. Not racing techniques.
Good luck to you mate!!
You were doing the Best method possible on none abs equipped vehicles which is "Controlled Panic Braking" or "Threshold Braking", not sliding which decreases traction. :fing02:
Controlled Sliding is only good for Stunting! :biggrin:
BR
ps It's all your fault you dirty stink'en biker! :goofy:
Get a lawyer. :fing02:
I wish you could of said, it has ABS Dip Shit , it doesnt lock up in a controlled brake slid.
I love my VTEC.
I Hate Lawyers!
[image: View Post]spud786, on 06 May 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:
I wish you could of said, it has ABS Dip Shit , it doesnt lock up in a controlled brake slid.
Contolled slide. 90% of people who say they layed it down befor impacet are lying and didnt do it on purpose. They lock up the rear and slide out. You are better off with maximium braking.
The controlled lside only works in the movies. If you lay it down you dont scrub spedd and still hit the car. If you brake 100% you shed speed and hit with less impact,
Thats horse poo!!!!!!!!
This lawyer is clearly not a skilled/trained rider. - or rider at all. I challenge him to find just ONE rider coach or rider intructor that will ever even hint at the idea that sliding will ever slow you faster than braking. I sure could use a good "crickets" emoticon right here.... If he happens to be talking about drifting a bike into a curve, my challenge is for him to locate JUST ONE rider on the street to demonstrate the technique. Good luck with that one. :laughing6-hehe:
[image: View Post]The mailman, on 06 May 2011 - 09:55 PM, said:
This lawyer is clearly not a skilled/trained rider. - or rider at all. I challenge him to find just ONE rider coach or rider intructor that will ever even hint at the idea that sliding will ever slow you faster than braking. I sure could use a good "crickets" emoticon right here.... If he happens to be talking about drifting a bike into a curve, my challenge is for him to locate JUST ONE rider on the street to demonstrate the technique. Good luck with that one. :laughing6-hehe:
A good lawyer would never set up a challenge like that...there is always at least one idiot they could find! :biggrin:
Ciao,
End of thread · 30 posts recovered Wayback Machine snapshot 20 Jul 2012