As a sport bike novice ( especially with mountain curves and twisties) I learned some important lesson from riding with experienced riders. I am still reflecting on my riding technique and the things I did right and those things I need to practice.
I decided to look back in the archives and found this nugget of gold:
"The track or a school is the safest place to test the limits and improve skills, but short of that I think the Single Biggest factor in confidence building is your Vision!
Where you look, meaning looking thru a turn as far forward of a vision as possible. This Slows down the inputs to the brain drastically vs looking right in front of the bike (very common with newer riders).
Most newer riders, even long time riders tend to focus their vision a short distance in front of the bike and the closer to the front of the bike the focus is the more overload the riders brain has to process in each turn. With this type of short focus a rider will Never advance their skill or speed or confidence period.
The further out the rider can focus their vision the slower the inputs are hitting the brain. This allows your brain to develop the skills to deal with what's next meaning your brain is already thinking about the next phase of the turn vs the one your currently in."
I am so very glad that I practiced what BR had posted here....I am positive that "looking through the curves" riding through The Dragon saved my bacon many times!
Looking ahead is one of the biggest keys to riding smoothly. I'm an avid autocrosser, (hence my user name,) and I believe it has made me a much better rider. In autocross, the turns come up in rapid succession and it is never the same course from event to event, so you can't practice or memorize the course. I have taken a few professional training classes and the biggest thing that is drilled into you is to look where you want to go, and as far ahead as you can. As stated in your post, it slows down the inputs. You are not reacting to right now, but planning for what is ahead of you. One thing we do to practice this in the car, is to cover bottom half of the windshield with painter's tape, so that you can't see what is immediately in front of you. It really forces you to look beyond what you are used to. (Not sure I can recommend that on the bike. :blink: )
Although I agree with looking through the corners, I always alternate between looking fairly close in front of my bike, and looking as far ahead as possible. This allows me to spot gravel and debris that I could not see when it was further away. Granted this does not really apply so much on "The Dragon" as it is an extremely heavily traveled road and most debris is kept clear, but most of us that live around here don't ride the dragon on any regular basis because of the amount of traffic. We prefer to stick to lesser known roads that often times do feature loose gravel, tar snakes, rain grooves, and small critters in the line that you had originally picked through that corner.
Burns and I were just talking about the difference in riding technics as experience builds. Contrasting last year's Catskills run with the one two years before... huge leaps forward last year and I had an absolute blast. The one two years before - yeah, scared for my life.
Still, one thing that just messes me up every ding-dang time: blind curves. Either because you're wrapping around a mountain side, or because you're doing one of those up-and-over a hill top where you don't know what's on the other side. I need to learn to relax and trust that the road doesn't take a big ugly dump ahead of me.
Sounded like a crock, then I realized that I actually wrote it some time back and should be considered Solid Gold! :goofy:
On the rare occasion where I find myself having any doubt about any given turn I can bet 99% of the time that specific issue I'm having is because I've shortened my focus and am Not looking thru the turn. :blush:
[image: View Post]Rufrydrsc2up, on 27 May 2011 - 08:02 PM, said:
Although I agree with looking through the corners, I always alternate between looking fairly close in front of my bike, and looking as far ahead as possible. This allows me to spot gravel and debris that I could not see when it was further away. Granted this does not really apply so much on "The Dragon" as it is an extremely heavily traveled road and most debris is kept clear, but most of us that live around here don't ride the dragon on any regular basis because of the amount of traffic. We prefer to stick to lesser known roads that often times do feature loose gravel, tar snakes, rain grooves, and small critters in the line that you had originally picked through that corner.
I do the same. I basically scan forward and back.
I took my oldwing to MC shop parking lot. I did a bunch of figure eights. At first I was looking ahead but not far. Then I tried looking all the way thru the turn. It was turning twice as fast, with more lean and speed.
Also dont look at the bike, car in front of you. Look thru them.
[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on 27 May 2011 - 09:04 PM, said:
Sounded like a crock
That's cause you wrote it., even though it is true. I was struggling with the basics this whole week, and still couldn't get down vision, loose hands, and normal speed.
I've been working on a solution to looking ahead for my open public road smooth line, and also wanting to check the surface for debris.
What I've found for me though testing, is to spot a visual mark for no longer than it takes to see it then look for another one. I found that I'll actually roll right over what I spotted without lingering my gaze on it. I also found for me that riding by myself helps as well, so I'm not just watching the rider in front of me.
It's like driving a semi, I have to look way down the road just to keep it in the middle of the lane on a straight road.
BUT ..... Riding a race track day is riding a surface that's clean, and have corner workers. Riding a public road even though you know the road doesn't mean that a tree didn't fall across it 5 min's after you checked it earlier(sand,mud,gravel,boulder,etc.). Which brings me to riding with someone that will lead and I can follow a turn or so behind, and if they make a corrective move, I can use that as a warning for when I get there.
I can ride well enough on a track to drag a knee(at least come close)about half way though the day. But I'm to much aware(chicken)to do that on a open road. There are plenty of peeps that can just go for it on a pulic road... I'm not one of them..... As Clint Eastwood said "It's good when a man knows his limitations".
Kind of an "ah ha" moment, ain't it. A building block that can make the difference between a good ride, and a very good ride. Must be said though, a public road is not a track. Ever. Under any circumstance. To treat it as such only can mean you're willing to accept a grossly exaggerated set of circumstances . Which obviously I am. That said, take what you learn each day and push it harder. Learning the techniques that go with looking through the curve will give you an even greater ah ha moment. Downshift, brake, shift your weight, lean, accelerate through the corner. Conedodger nailed it! Smoothness is the key. No matter what it is; accelerating, braking, or throttling out of the chicane. Watch the guys on the AMA. Doesn't matter if it's an Atlanta native on Road Atlanta or an Atlanta native running the Isle of Mann. The good ones are smooth, the great ones are smoother. Anyone can go fast. All you have to do is be around a few stretched Busa's to understand that!
I think I've had enough to drink. Gotta get up in the morning and tackle this electrical problem
[image: View Post]spud786, on 28 May 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:
Another, when you get into your 40's and 50's theres alot of eye degrade that takes place, your clarity weakens, perifial reaction time ect.
Having bionic vision , I started seeing the degrade at night with shadows, it was a few years later I could no longer read a book without glasses.
That being said, being aware of aging and how it degrades sinces can keep you riding, maybe not as fast.
[image: View Post]Monk, on 28 May 2011 - 08:41 AM, said:
[image: View Post]spud786, on 28 May 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:
Another, when you get into your 40's and 50's theres alot of eye degrade that takes place, your clarity weakens, perifial reaction time ect.
Having bionic vision , I started seeing the degrade at night with shadows, it was a few years later I could no longer read a book without glasses.
That being said, being aware of aging and how it degrades sinces can keep you riding, maybe not as fast.
+1 I swear I use to be able to see through trees and tell if a car was coming. Can't any more.
[image: View Post]Rufrydrsc2up, on 27 May 2011 - 08:02 PM, said:
Although I agree with looking through the corners, I always alternate between looking fairly close in front of my bike, and looking as far ahead as possible. This allows me to spot gravel and debris that I could not see when it was further away. Granted this does not really apply so much on "The Dragon" as it is an extremely heavily traveled road and most debris is kept clear, but most of us that live around here don't ride the dragon on any regular basis because of the amount of traffic. We prefer to stick to lesser known roads that often times do feature loose gravel, tar snakes, rain grooves, and small critters in the line that you had originally picked through that corner.
I do the same when I ride. Something about my motor moving laterally without my input makes me scan for the hated gravel and find the right lines to take. Good advice!
[image: View Post]Baileyrock, on 27 May 2011 - 09:04 PM, said:
Sounded like a crock, then I realized that I actually wrote it some time back and should be considered Solid Gold! :goofy:
On the rare occasion where I find myself having any doubt about any given turn I can bet 99% of the time that specific issue I'm having is because I've shortened my focus and am Not looking thru the turn. :blush:
[image: View Post]Jon28, on 28 May 2011 - 09:12 AM, said:
[image: View Post]Rufrydrsc2up, on 27 May 2011 - 08:02 PM, said:
Although I agree with looking through the corners, I always alternate between looking fairly close in front of my bike, and looking as far ahead as possible. This allows me to spot gravel and debris that I could not see when it was further away. Granted this does not really apply so much on "The Dragon" as it is an extremely heavily traveled road and most debris is kept clear, but most of us that live around here don't ride the dragon on any regular basis because of the amount of traffic. We prefer to stick to lesser known roads that often times do feature loose gravel, tar snakes, rain grooves, and small critters in the line that you had originally picked through that corner.
I do the same when I ride. Something about my motor moving laterally without my input makes me scan for the hated gravel and find the right lines to take. Good advice!
I too do the same, but the key is to develop the habit of always Looking Down the road and Not lock in on the close vision scan and move it back out asap.
[image: View Post]Rufrydrsc2up, on 27 May 2011 - 08:02 PM, said:
Although I agree with looking through the corners, I always alternate between looking fairly close in front of my bike, and looking as far ahead as possible. This allows me to spot gravel and debris that I could not see when it was further away. Granted this does not really apply so much on "The Dragon" as it is an extremely heavily traveled road and most debris is kept clear, but most of us that live around here don't ride the dragon on any regular basis because of the amount of traffic. We prefer to stick to lesser known roads that often times do feature loose gravel, tar snakes, rain grooves, and small critters in the line that you had originally picked through that corner.
Although I agree with you. We have to be careful with what we tell lesser riders (like myself) who tend to target fixate. In this context the answer is only to look through the turn and handle the gravel, debris, tar snakes, etc. as they come, since we aren't riding at 100% of the bike's ability anyway.
For me, using peripheral vision is best, just making sure that I don't target fixate when I do see the gravel. Where you look really is where you'll go.
When I was a new rider I found one of the most difficult things to deal with was what I called the "startle factor". Riding around Minnesota there are not very many truely blind corners. The ones where you cannot see very far ahead. Then, on my first visit to the Deal's Gap area (think Tail of the Dragon) I found that as I went around a blind corner, a suddenly-appearing approaching vehicle would startle me so much the bike would twitch. I figured that was an unconscious effort to avoid the oncoming vehicle. I'm not sure how I learned not to do that, but it took a while to get used to. I've never heard this discussed in any training information. I guess I learned not to focus directly on the oncoming lane and concentrate, as far ahead as I could, only on MY lane and keep the oncoming lane in my peripheral vision.
Does anyone have a better explaination of how to deal with this situation? Anyone else experience the "startle factor"?
[image: View Post]MaxSwell, on 19 January 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:
When I was a new rider I found one of the most difficult things to deal with was what I called the "startle factor". Riding around Minnesota there are not very many truely blind corners. The ones where you cannot see very far ahead. Then, on my first visit to the Deal's Gap area (think Tail of the Dragon) I found that as I went around a blind corner, a suddenly-appearing approaching vehicle would startle me so much the bike would twitch. I figured that was an unconscious effort to avoid the oncoming vehicle. I'm not sure how I learned not to do that, but it took a while to get used to. I've never heard this discussed in any training information. I guess I learned not to focus directly on the oncoming lane and concentrate, as far ahead as I could, only on MY lane and keep the oncoming lane in my peripheral vision.
Does anyone have a better explaination of how to deal with this situation? Anyone else experience the "startle factor"?
I just plan on one being there. There usually is one so no big deal. Its the ones that are on your side of the road that startle me.
MaXwell........ Looks like you answered your own question....... I've had that happen to me even after I was at the point of not letting them distract me, and it's just that , "A lack of concentration" ..... I just keep working on it...... Going to the Dragon helps me, and riding with the ppl from this forum helps me to pick the pace up although they lose me after a few turns, but it still gives me the drive to get to the next interchange so they don't have to wait to long for me.////////SAFELY, of course////////
[image: View Post]Switchblade, on 19 January 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:
[image: View Post]MaxSwell, on 19 January 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:
When I was a new rider I found one of the most difficult things to deal with was what I called the "startle factor". Riding around Minnesota there are not very many truely blind corners. The ones where you cannot see very far ahead. Then, on my first visit to the Deal's Gap area (think Tail of the Dragon) I found that as I went around a blind corner, a suddenly-appearing approaching vehicle would startle me so much the bike would twitch. I figured that was an unconscious effort to avoid the oncoming vehicle. I'm not sure how I learned not to do that, but it took a while to get used to. I've never heard this discussed in any training information. I guess I learned not to focus directly on the oncoming lane and concentrate, as far ahead as I could, only on MY lane and keep the oncoming lane in my peripheral vision. Does anyone have a better explaination of how to deal with this situation? Anyone else experience the "startle factor"? I just plan on one being there. There usually is one so no big deal. Its the ones that are on your side of the road that startle me.
I don't mind them as much on my bike as I do in my Jeep.... I still have room on the bike but the jeep sometime has to go into "on-shoulder mode" to squeeze by these nim-rods.
I'm with you on this one ... track is so different from road, and I tend to not want to leave it all out there on the road. Too many other variables.
[image: View Post]Monk, on 27 May 2011 - 11:01 PM, said:
I've been working on a solution to looking ahead for my open public road smooth line, and also wanting to check the surface for debris.
What I've found for me though testing, is to spot a visual mark for no longer than it takes to see it then look for another one. I found that I'll actually roll right over what I spotted without lingering my gaze on it. I also found for me that riding by myself helps as well, so I'm not just watching the rider in front of me.
It's like driving a semi, I have to look way down the road just to keep it in the middle of the lane on a straight road.
BUT ..... Riding a race track day is riding a surface that's clean, and have corner workers. Riding a public road even though you know the road doesn't mean that a tree didn't fall across it 5 min's after you checked it earlier(sand,mud,gravel,boulder,etc.). Which brings me to riding with someone that will lead and I can follow a turn or so behind, and if they make a corrective move, I can use that as a warning for when I get there.
I can ride well enough on a track to drag a knee(at least come close)about half way though the day. But I'm to much aware(chicken)to do that on a open road. There are plenty of peeps that can just go for it on a pulic road... I'm not one of them..... As Clint Eastwood said "It's good when a man knows his limitations".
End of thread · 23 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 20 Jul 2012