A buddy and I have been gearing up for a Border to Border Insanity run. This is an award from the same guys that do Bunburner and Saddlesore, the IronButt Association.
Basic run down, Mexico to Canada in 24 hours....
We are crossing in Matamoros and riding to Windsor Canada. Around 1600 miles total, which qualifies us for Saddlesore and Bunburner, not to mention the ultra B2B - Insanity.
Ill be on my 98 VFR and my buddy is taking his 06 R1 (crazy, i know). The ride back should be fun. Visiting a friend in Montreal then heading back via New York, Penn, West Virginia, Kentucky, Tenn, Arkansas and back to Texas... Goin go try and knock out some dream rides (Dragon, Blue Ridge Pwky, etc).
Been working on the logistics and basically we have it worked to roughly this...
Gas and 15 minute break every 100 miles.
14 stops @ 15 minutes each = 3.5 hours
24 hours allotted time - 3.5 hours break time = 20.5 hours to ride.
1672 miles / 20.5 hours = 81.5 mph average (difficult to maintain)
holding 90mph we "earn time", basically 8.5 extra miles for every hour ridden... if we can hold 90 for 5 - 8 hours, thats 40-60 miles earned for breaks or to account for traffic and police.
any advice appreciated!!!!!!!!!
if worse comes to worse, we can take a break and do it in 36 hours for still a helluva award but we loose the "Insanity" label. A 70yr old guy just finished the insanity run!
Not sure tanking every 100 miles is going to work out for the RI at those speeds. If you are on the slab the whole way I guess you will not run out of gas.
Never did this ride, but I did do the Great Lakes 50...all the way around all of the Great Lakes in under 50 hours. We did it in just under 48...with a 5 hour rest stop in the middle. I think going into it trying to average 81MPH might not work. What do you do if you're in a state where the speed limit is 55? I would suggest taking out a few rest stops...or shorten a couple to just gas fill ups.
Either way, you're in for one hell of a story. Make sure you keep all your log book stuff so you can get your Cert from the IBA.
--Ok now that I got that out of the way - How are your going to approach Matamoros? I used to do business there and its not a pretty place. You gonna just stick your toe over there and take off? Brownsville is a dive too....
- You have the famed first year '98 5th gen (me too) --- go over your electrics with a fine tooth comb! If everything is orginal and you bike mileage is north of 10k, I'll put money on the R/R will crap out.
- Your buddy on an R1? He is even madder than you are.
- Go over both bikes mechanically - tires, oil, coolant. etc........
90 mph for at least 5 hours? Holy ....... - you know that 's reckess op in some states and a bike tow-in?
- If you make it to Winsor, be sure to check out the "ballet" ---- lol
[image: View Post]txsurfer, on 21 July 2011 - 06:07 PM, said:
We are crossing in Matamoros and riding to Windsor Canada.
Windsor is the busiest crossing there is between Canada and the US. So depending on what time of day you cross, you could loose hours waiting. And whatever you do, take the bridge not the tunnel.
I did the 1000miles in 24hours iron butt coming home from T-Mac in May. GPS said 14hours, I did it in just over 18. And I was pushing it. I was trying for the 15min stops. But by the time you stop, get your gear off, walk out the legs, bathroom break, a drink or a quick bite to eat. Those 15mins stops turn in to 20-30mins before you even know what happened. I was able to push it between stops to a tank of fuel (200miles) a few times, but I think I paid for it near the end. Make your stops as scheduled, even if your behind or if you feel you don't need too.
Whats the longest you have ever ridden before, in a day?
I ride 100 miles one way to work, than work in a physical environment for 10hours than ride home 100miles in traffic and heat. Its not uncommon for me to jump on the bike on a Saturday and ride 300 or 400 miles and not think twice about it. Can you do that? Can your buddy on the R1 do that?
Pick a day and do a 200 or 300mile warm up ride and just see how you feel. I think I have conditioned myself for long rides on the VFR and I found the Iron butt hard.
The miles are longer than what we originially figured. But I dont want to drive to say Arizona to start the ride....
Im going to rework the miles and try and get it back down to 1300-1400. I dont believe the 1600+ is possible in 24 hours, the 36hour window sure no problem.
Our riding is heavy. I have done several 400+ mile days on my old bandit 1200 (3Twisted Sisters then back home to North Houston was my personal best) and my buddy on the R1 did the same. We have both clocked almost 500 in the saddle in a day (him on his R1) and while it sucks, I can do it. My sargent seat just got in and this time I have a good throttle locker on the VFR, that should help a ton.
As for Matamoros, Im a semi mex pro, used to live down there for a few months last year including Monterrey. I prefer Nuevo Laredo for relative safety (Matamoros and south along the Gulf is a deserted area due to seriously heavy crime. its sad cause I have driven the whole gulf coast route to Chiapas back in 07) but its more traffic. Matamoros has the Mex Customs right over the bridge (forgot bridge number) and I can swing through, Uturn and head back across. You have to check into customs as part of the rules.
Ugh, this is not going to be easy. I just hope I can swing the 24hour window...I can always fall back on 36 but I dont even want to make it an option. If we make it to montreal in less than 48, its 2K miles which qualifies us for another award. Im just looking forward to the ride home from there, all cruising, no freeways. :biggrin:
We just did a small practice run this weekend, 936 miles in 2 days ahaha. The second day was some hard 3 Twisted sister riding (me 2-up with my girlfriend) and then turning around and going back to houston. Some things I learned
1)15 minute breaks are more than enough. we did it to san antonio for fun and it was fine. Did 220 miles to San Antone in 3 hours flat, coulda been faster.
2) Even with a throttle locker, I still get that searing pain in my right shoulder in one damn spot, like someone holding a lit cigar there. Any advice from you serious long distance guys? Ive always gotten this and I cannot avoid it. I didnt get it too bad riding to San Antone with throttle locked, but after the sisters and riding home, I was i some serious pain. this could be a huge trip killer for me!!!! Icyhot pads?? Cmon guys, I cannot be the only one!!!!!
3)Sargent seats are AWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESOME. Mine arrived the day before this trip, 460 miles in 1 day, no problem.
gotta rework miles for this thing. its going to be hell
Sounds crazy, post up the results (and pics) when you do it
I wonder if Helibars would help with the right shoulder, the taller grip might be enough to get you in a different riding position where you're comfortable
[image: View Post]txsurfer, on 25 July 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:
Well no one has replied....
We just did a small practice run this weekend, 936 miles in 2 days ahaha. The second day was some hard 3 Twisted sister riding (me 2-up with my girlfriend) and then turning around and going back to houston. Some things I learned
1)15 minute breaks are more than enough. we did it to san antonio for fun and it was fine. Did 220 miles to San Antone in 3 hours flat, coulda been faster.
2) Even with a throttle locker, I still get that searing pain in my right shoulder in one damn spot, like someone holding a lit cigar there. Any advice from you serious long distance guys? Ive always gotten this and I cannot avoid it. I didnt get it too bad riding to San Antone with throttle locked, but after the sisters and riding home, I was i some serious pain. this could be a huge trip killer for me!!!! Icyhot pads?? Cmon guys, I cannot be the only one!!!!!
3)Sargent seats are AWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESOME. Mine arrived the day before this trip, 460 miles in 1 day, no problem.
gotta rework miles for this thing. its going to be hell
Forgive me if I am telling you something you already know, but I had similar problems when I first started on the VFR. The Guys here gave some great advice which basically amounted to
1 Helibars lift the bars up and back and DRAMATICALLY change your riding position. It takes a little to get used to the new position but after a while it becomes good.
2 do not support any of your upper body weight on your hands, Grip the tank with your knees and take a lot of your weight on your feet, not your bottom. THis takes a while to get used to and your muscles forget to do it pretty quickly, but if you persist, over a period of time ti almost becomes natural. (this helps cornering as well)
3 with the throttle locked, you just need to rest your hands on the bars, not grip them. I've got the proper cruise control and it is magic, but I expect the lock would amount to the same thing.
The burning sensation in the point of your shoulder is the tendons and ligaments telling you that your shoulder is in the wrong position. if you have time, go and see a good sports physio. They will give you some simple exercises that will strengthen up the various muscle groups so that your shoulder will be pulled back into the correct position. I had the same thing from driving a car with my right shoulder resting on the window for way too many years, (we drive on the other side here) It is amazing what a few simple exercises will achieve in this area.
Apart from that, I still think you are crazy :o) but good luck.
Your pain could be due to your lack of flexibility, aggravated by riding position.
Try getting a 65cm (larger if you are tall) exercise ball and laying on it on your back. With you feet flat on the ground, roll back wards until your neck is bent back with you head looking back and hanging as far back as is reasonably comfortable. Bring your arms up and back all the way in a diver's pose and very slowly stretch them outward and back down to about about hip level. Slowly go back to original diver's position all the while stretching your pectorals and shoulders. Repeat this action several times...going slow is the key to get maximum stretching and not injuring your shoulder. This positon can really help with lower back pain as well. This stretching exercise was given to me by my PT after a shoulder separation injury and I have continued to use ever since...it feels great! Hope it helps you if you try it...
Suburban Machinery in Ft.Worth makes a nice set of bars for the vfr. I am 6'4'' and their extenders really work.Freedom Air makes a hospital grade air bladder for bikes that beat everything on the market-they make hospital air bedding for trauma burn victims.Made in usa.
4 Alieve tabs in the am.
Have fun/Be safe.[image: SDC10822.JPG]
I attempted this in 2008. Would have made the drive time had it not been for the weather that summer. You can read about my experience here http://blueknightsoh...ders-has-begun/
Try a throttle lock and throttle rocker. The combination of both lessens the grip you need on the bars.
The throttle can be held open with an open palm. http://throttlerocker.com/
[image: View Post]txsurfer, on 22 July 2011 - 12:52 PM, said:
The miles are longer than what we originially figured. But I dont want to drive to say Arizona to start the ride....
Im going to rework the miles and try and get it back down to 1300-1400. I dont believe the 1600+ is possible in 24 hours, the 36hour window sure no problem.
Our riding is heavy. I have done several 400+ mile days on my old bandit 1200 (3Twisted Sisters then back home to North Houston was my personal best) and my buddy on the R1 did the same. We have both clocked almost 500 in the saddle in a day (him on his R1) and while it sucks, I can do it. My sargent seat just got in and this time I have a good throttle locker on the VFR, that should help a ton.
As for Matamoros, Im a semi mex pro, used to live down there for a few months last year including Monterrey. I prefer Nuevo Laredo for relative safety (Matamoros and south along the Gulf is a deserted area due to seriously heavy crime. its sad cause I have driven the whole gulf coast route to Chiapas back in 07) but its more traffic. Matamoros has the Mex Customs right over the bridge (forgot bridge number) and I can swing through, Uturn and head back across. You have to check into customs as part of the rules.
Ugh, this is not going to be easy. I just hope I can swing the 24hour window...I can always fall back on 36 but I dont even want to make it an option. If we make it to montreal in less than 48, its 2K miles which qualifies us for another award. Im just looking forward to the ride home from there, all cruising, no freeways. :biggrin:
Forget what you've been told; high speeds and long-distance riding have little in common. A steady rider can book more miles, enjoy more mountain vistas and ride more twisty miles than a canyon carver bent on making the best times across a mountain pass. Besides the obvious effects on fuel mileage, which means more time wasted looking for gas, and the fatigue caused by fighting the effects of pushing a motorcycle through the wind, riding much beyond the flow of traffic will land you a hefty speeding ticket. While you are on the side of the road having a spirited discussion with a Police officer about your 10/10ths riding style, the turtle-like rider on the Honda 250 will wave as he sets himself up for the next set of corners.
Here's a link if you haven't seen it before that you might like to look though.
Okay, I'll chime in here and tell you that Monk is dead on. Long distance riding is more about consistency and conditioning than speed. In fact, if during the IBA's certification of the ride it's determined that you had to have ridden at reckless speeds to make the time between documented fuel stops, you could be disqualified. I've been an IBA member for years, and have a B2B Insanity, a Bunburner Gold (1556mi in 23.5hrs, with my longest stop being 9 minutes) and several Saddlesore 1000's under my belt. I just did a Saddlesore with my son a few months back, me on the VFR, him on a 650 Ninja. 1018 miles we did, in 17.4 hours. I'll be doing another B2B Insanity next month, as a matter of fact, but on a different bike. My advice is to very carefully plan your route, and the border crossing wait times are critical if you are trying for the "Insanity" (24hr) certification. I calculate my fuel range, and then look up each fuel stop on a map. Then I call each station and verify that they will be open, and that their gas pumps printed dated and time stamped reciepts. (required for the IBA certification) You should also be aware that you cannot get certified for a B2B Insanity ride without first having certification of a Saddlesore 1000. Build up to the big miles, and it will become easier. Make sure to stay hydrated as you ride, it's easy to become hyperthermic in the summer heat. Good luck with your ride. Plan well, and be safe. Garry
[image: View Post]racerman, on 07 August 2011 - 02:03 AM, said:
Okay, I'll chime in here and tell you that Monk is dead on. Long distance riding is more about consistency and conditioning than speed. In fact, if during the IBA's certification of the ride it's determined that you had to have ridden at reckless speeds to make the time between documented fuel stops, you could be disqualified. I've been an IBA member for years, and have a B2B Insanity, a Bunburner Gold (1556mi in 23.5hrs, with my longest stop being 9 minutes) and several Saddlesore 1000's under my belt. I just did a Saddlesore with my son a few months back, me on the VFR, him on a 650 Ninja. 1018 miles we did, in 17.4 hours. I'll be doing another B2B Insanity next month, as a matter of fact, but on a different bike. My advice is to very carefully plan your route, and the border crossing wait times are critical if you are trying for the "Insanity" (24hr) certification. I calculate my fuel range, and then look up each fuel stop on a map. Then I call each station and verify that they will be open, and that their gas pumps printed dated and time stamped reciepts. (required for the IBA certification) You should also be aware that you cannot get certified for a B2B Insanity ride without first having certification of a Saddlesore 1000. Build up to the big miles, and it will become easier. Make sure to stay hydrated as you ride, it's easy to become hyperthermic in the summer heat. Good luck with your ride. Plan well, and be safe. Garry
Just got back from another 1000 mile ride, broken up. I did 650 in one day to try and test myself and I was able to pull it off much much better than before thanks to some of the advice mentioned here! You guys were dead on! Im putting too much weight on my wrists subconsciously and now im riding supporting more of my weight with my stomach and legs. it also helps than I grabbed a Sargent seat :)
Speed is something we are starting to calm down about after reading some blogs and redoing our calculations. You guys are right that its persistence and consistency that make it happen, not speed. My biggest problem is the R1 range on a tank and that means more gas stops and time wasted.
Racerman, I checked with the IBA and they said I do NOT have to have the SS1000 first but we are considering doing it next weekend anyways for fun and practice. Just a 500 1 way and back (boring) but I hate to waste much more of my money on this (im an unemployed traveler).
Ill keep you guys posted as we get closer, right now, if my buddies passport comes back in time we should be setting off from Del Rio, TX to Windsor, Ontario around Sept 6thish.
While it may not be recommended by all I have a routine for longer distance rides that work for me. I stay away from heavy meals, alcohol, and caffeine the day or so before the ride. I hydrate with plenty of water the day before as well. Before I leave for the ride I take a couple of ibuprofen (Aleve, Advil) with some water. Even if my joints and muscles are not sore when I start the anti inflammatory properties of it seem to really delay the onset of stiffness and soreness. I will usually take a second couple ibuprofen after the halfway point of the ride as well.
When I get going I try to settle into a comfortable and familiar posture/seating position and stay there. I try not to fidget and move around much at first because the more I do that the less it seems to help with comfort long term. Short stops off the bike for water and healthy snacks. I like carrot sticks, granola bars, and trail mix style snacks in the tank bag so I do not have to waste time or money on gas station store snacks. I never take gas stops longer than 10 minutes but I do get off the bike and stretch for a few minutes. I normally plan one slightly longer stop in the ride and I usually have a small sandwich at that point.
I am not a fan of caffeine or sugar loaded energy drinks for long rides due to the crashes that follow the little high they can provide. I do use and like the 5 hour energy drink stuff though. I use those if I am really dragging late in the trip. The small bottles are easy to keep in a tank bag or pocket.
Good luck. I am doing two SS1000 rides in the next two months. One in September and one in October.
We are leaving for Del Rio, TX tomorrow and should be starting our ride Wednesday afternoon. We are going to try dodging the Texas heat by riding the first leg at night. Also we are trying to play with our pysche here and do the overnight (where we should be the most tired) leg first and the rest of the ride will be in daylight, much harder to "fall asleep" or so we think. 7pm to 7pm shall be our ride.
Ive never crossed in Del Rio/Cd. Acuna but it doesnt look like there is much there on the other side without a serious trek through town. So we will start our ride on the American side with either the toll bridge reciept or gas just at the bricge from an exxon that is there. Pics of the mexican side plus a reciept from them for paying to cross should wrap it all up, then north across Texas! Google puts the ride at 1570 miles from Del Rio, Tx to Windsor, Ontario.
http://share.findmes...qrsH8VLOCD47EzK That is my SPOT device Ill be carrying. Follow along! Thanks for all the advice again guys! Im hoping we can pull this off...
I've done 3 "night" rides in NL (start at 7PM and ride till 7AM) and the feeling of riding into the night and see the sun rise in the morning is magic indeed :fing02:
Sorry Ive been silent for awhile. Ive been messing around with my other obession, sailing and Ive been doing a lot of it!
The ride went downhill right from the start as we ran into terrible weather. Being a sailor, I should have watched the weather more closely but we were too excited with all the anticipation.
set out that afternoon at 6:30pm and crossed the border. We got our pictures and Toll bridge reciepts with correct time and date and started heading north. We immediately ran into heavy heavy rain and lightning through the west texas hill country. We pushed on, riding way too fast for unknown roads in the dark and pouring rain. This went on for the first 1.5 hours until we hit our first gas stop, San Angelo. Weather was clear from here on out but we got a ticket about 20 miles outside San Angelo, TX and this put a big downer on our spirits.
In OKcity, OK, we were in 48F with constant rain and heavy wind and we hit our next gas stop. Checking radar, it was solid rain for the next 4hrs to Missouri and we packed NO rain gear, idiots I know :)
We slept for 3hrs in the gas station and decided to fall back on the 36hr award. Checking the radar showed even more rain on the route so we went north to Kansas to buy some dry time. We finished a solid Iron Butt in MIssouri with 3 minutes to spare (never sent in the paperwork, we are still pissed we didnt make it). Spent the night somewhere....
We left the next morning and rode with some Canadians to Indiapolis, IN where we stayed the night and relaxed at a buddies house. Left the next afternoon bound for Canada and we made it to Windsor, Ontario at around 12am. From there we headed east and stopped in London, Ontario at 3am for the night. Next morning we rode all day to Montreal and made it by 9pm, seriously enjoying Toronto, Canadian freeways (wish I would have had time for some country roads. all major highway riding seriously sucks. We stayed in Montreal with a good friend for 3 days and finally headed back south to NY. Once again, rain and shitty weather plagued us for days on end. We rode through the Adirondacks and highly enjoyed that and caught the trees turning colors. Stopped for the night in Utica, NY.
Next morning we hit the road for Penn and wow, the riding there is incredible. We headed to Montrose, Pa and then went west and south from there through country highways enjoying good twisties, beautiful landscapes and no police. Stayed somewhere in south Pa that night. Next morning was the worst on the whole trip, pulled through Cumberland,Maryland, solid rain (had rain hear by now) and 38F. Pushed on to Friendsville, WV when we called it quits, sleeting on us with 34F and solid rain again. Stayed the night, woke up the next morning to 36F rain and calling for snow so we buckled down untl Morgantown, WV where we got some good gloves from a Home Depot (leather cowhide with sheep wool inside, waterproof and WARM). My Alpinestar boots were taking on water through the ventholes so I ducktaped them and wrapped my feet in trashbags, hobo style. Rode all the way to Knoxville that night looking for warmer temps and no rain, vowing to never return to this beautiful area haha. One day I will, Im still pissed I missed all that good riding.
Rode Tenn and NC for a few days, deals gap a few times and the OHHH SOOOO MUCH FUN 143/165 route where I finally achieved the ripped tread award from accelerating out of turns so hard, tread at the edge of the wall was ripped all over the right ride, lefties still scare me a tad :)
Made it to West Memphis, AK (NEVER AGAIN WILL I STOP HERE) that night, crashed out. Took off in the morning for Hot Springs (stopped in Little Rock, AK to change my front tire at a CycleGear). Rode the Ouchita area and then headed home to Houston. 5,500 miles total!!!!!
What I learned? CHECK THE DAMN WEATHER LIKE A HAWK! Endurance rides start to suck on your 6th hour of rain doing 75 to make up lost time! I also learned a vital skill of eating sunflower seeds through a closed face helmet while riding with cruise control on at 85mph through Kansas to stay awake.
Id like to try again... hopefully soon. Gotta save a few pennies first, time to go back to work :(
Man I'm impressed you rode to West Memphis, Alaska (AK) this time of year! :smile: Sorry I'm from Alaska and not Arkansas (AR) and couldn't resist. Sounds like a heck of a trip the good news is, all of your long trips after this should be easy right? Still sounds like it was a great experience to me. My wife and I decided to ride to Maine for a Wedding one year and spent three days in a storm left over from a Hurricane I don't think we where dry for two days and all I could think of was our dress clothes were going to be a mess and where are we going to find a dry cleaner,they where is a suit bag that I covered with trash bags and bunged to the top case. But everything was spotless. But everyone one was so amazed we didn't buy a meal or drink all weekend. (when we got back we bought good quality Rain gear.)
On a side note, My wife and I met in Galveston and are looking for a 50ft Formosa to live aboard. Where do you sail out of and what vessel do you sail. We almost came over to Kemah a few months ago to look at a Formosa but after talking to a few people decided it wasn't in good enough shape for what we wanted.
rescue13, on 24 March 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:
Man I'm impressed you rode to West Memphis, Alaska (AK) this time of year! Sorry I'm from Alaska and not Arkansas (AR) and couldn't resist. Sounds like a heck of a trip the good news is, all of your long trips after this should be easy right? Still sounds like it was a great experience to me. My wife and I decided to ride to Maine for a Wedding one year and spent three days in a storm left over from a Hurricane I don't think we where dry for two days and all I could think of was our dress clothes were going to be a mess and where are we going to find a dry cleaner,they where is a suit bag that I covered with trash bags and bunged to the top case. But everything was spotless. But everyone one was so amazed we didn't buy a meal or drink all weekend. (when we got back we bought good quality Rain gear.)
On a side note, My wife and I met in Galveston and are looking for a 50ft Formosa to live aboard. Where do you sail out of and what vessel do you sail. We almost came over to Kemah a few months ago to look at a Formosa but after talking to a few people decided it wasn't in good enough shape for what we wanted.
Cool Trip and thanks for the ride report.
DOH! I knew typing that up that late was gonna get me with all those state abbreviations! Good catch, should I correct? naaa... haahaha.
Yea Im just glad I got over my fear of rain riding long before I did this ride cause 45-55mph for hours wears on me too. As long as there is good drainage on the road and I can find a good line either in lane 1 or 3 (never 2!) ill do 65-75 all day in a downpour.
Thats an impressive ride too! I wish I could say my clothes were all fine, they were.... OK at best, but damp. I use the motocentric bags and I lost one of my rain covers early in the ride as I forgot to tighten the draw strings. 85mph into 25mph headwinds ripped it clean off!
I do all of my sailing in the kemah area. I had a Catalina 25 for a couple of years until Ike took my marina and it. I had a hobie 14 turbo after that to help with my addiction to multihulls. did a 200 mile trip up the Texas coast on the hobie in an event called the Texas200. Done the Harvest Moon Regatta 2 times, taking 2nd in our cruising division (Morgan 382) first time around. Couple more offshore Port Aransas trips and several deliveries around Florida that I captained. Im addicted to sailing about as much as riding! Now Im addicted to boat building and I have been restoring/rebuilding a Crowther Buccaneer 28 trimaran with a buddy. About half way done so far.
The Formosa is a great boat, Im partial to their cousins, the Vagabond. Met the owners of a beautiful Vagabond 47 (full tanbark sails) here in the Kemah area, Adalante is the name. thats my video.
Great to hear you know my areas :) Take a ride down and lets go for a sail!
Thanks for the offer I would love to take you up on it some time. Have you ever ridden across West TX?? :schla15: it's like KS(Kansas :biggrin: ) X10 (my wife is from KS and I have to drive there every few years. :blink: :schla15: :goofy: )
I like the Vagabond as well but there is something in the lines of a Formosa and they are great for Blue water sailing. I had to look up your Buccaneer very nice, I would love to see some pics. I fell in love with Cat's and Tri's when I lived in Australia years ago. I've always found it interesting that the Aussie's and Kiwi's fully embrace Muti-hulls for blue water sailing but they have been slow to take off her in the states. But they are out of my budget.
End of thread · 28 posts recoveredWayback Machine snapshot 16 Jun 2012