A New Member ... riding for 16 years ... in Phoenix AZ ... Looking for a sport touring bike.
As you have probably know Honda has reduced the asking price for a 2010, paddle-shift, VFR 1200 to ~$10,500.
++I have a quote from my local dealer of $14,400 out-the-door (covers build, taxes, destination, add-ons) for a 2010, paddle-shift VFR 1200, with Honda side bags, and extended wind-screen.
++I also have a quote from the same dealer of $16,500 out-the-door for a standard 2010 ST1300 (not ABS).
As I said, I am looking for a sport touring bike.
Q: What do yo think of these offers? Am I forgetting anything?
You say that you're looking for a sport-touring bike. That means a lot of things to a lot of people.
Does "sport-touring" mean that having ABS would be a priority? If the local ST1300 bike lacks ABS, then that's a factor to consider.
On the other hand, does "sport-touring" mean that 250+ miles from a tank would be a priority? If so, then the 7+ gallon tank on the ST1300 would be a factor to consider.
Either way, they're two great bikes. Just a matter of weighing your options & determining your priorities.
Any chance that the dealer will let you take a short demo ride on each? (After you put down your deposit to show him that you're serious on getting 1 of the 2 from him?)
You may find that one is "must-have" or a "cant-stand" ...
Now I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert, but 16,500 sounds a bit pricey to me for an ST without ABS. I know at my local dealer has 2 2010 VFR1200F (non DCT) for literally 9,999 each. I'd say look around a little more and see if you can find one of the two cheaper. Also owning a VFR myself I'd say VFR is the way to go...but that might be a bit of a biased opinion. :wink:
jjarama,
Being the owner of a 5th gen VFR and an 04 ST 1300 its a good set of bikes for me. Price shop some more on the ST or even check the ST1300.us.com sites classifieds...
I didn't notice your age listed but the 1200 has a young mans seating and if you are into a sport touring machine the ST is a good bang for yourt buck. Much better range first and foremost,
about 150-175 for vfr and 250-300 is doable on the ST. Bags hold lots and a trunk is an easy add-on. The ST site I mentioned would be a good place to start out at nice folke, with boatloads of knowledge and willing to share. More on the ST if you go thgat way {I really enjoy ,ime} make sure the whole toool kit is on board if you go new....Comfort is a state of mind ,many guys go with new saddles, and some get the OEM modded.....I have had my 04 from new and if you arer in the least good with tools you can do an oil change and plugs and rear end oil in about an hour or so....is that easy Look before you leap, also look at SouthernHonda, in Chattanooga,Tenn....GREAT prices on Hondas.....If you want more let me know...
Rod
p.s.
my 99 VFR is a hoot I replaced a too fast TL1000 with it, and gained comfort an older guy like me needs....
rod
I knew I would be forced to choose between the 'sport' and the 'touring' ...
I am 50-ish, 6' 2'', and 205 lbs and will ride this bike to work every day, take day & weekend trips throughout in Arizona, and occassional vacations trips to Grand Canyon, Southetn California, Yosemite, and the like ... Like my last bike, I expect to ride this bike forever ... I am a conservative rider with my sport days in the past (no more track time for me) ...
I like the VFR looks and technology (DCT, VTEC), and capability ... and the lower initial cost ($10,500) - even with hard bag add-ons and taller touring screen the price (out-the-door $14,300) is lower than the ST1300 (out-the-door $16,500) ... Even though it is obvious the ST1300 is a very refined tourer and would do the job for a long time, I like the looks of this VFR ... These prices do not include extended warrently or maintanence.
... As with any bike, I'll enjoy purchasing add-ons for years (grips, cruse, top bag, GPS, etc)
Q:I'd like to know If the 2010 VFR DC is a true touring bike - even with its 'sport' capability ? Is 175 miles good-enough for the occassional touring event ?
I think the fuel range is the only factor as to get it or not(VFR) ....... What you need to know is how long do you want to set without getting off if you're on a 2 or 3 day ride... 175m or 275m (3 hours or 5 hours)........ If your riding one up or two on long rides ............ and for easy refueling have your creditcard in easy reach without having to take your gloves off , and ti's a stop and go that isn't much longer than a traffic light stop.......
My wife doesn't appreciate riding (so its one-up riding) and for me, 2-to-3 hours is reason-enough to stop.
On one of the picture pages I noticed a great looking Corbin seat for the VFR 1200 and the owner mentioned a comfort imprvenent (another purchasing add-on for my kids to get me : -).
I think the VFR is in the sweet spot ... Yet as suggested, I'll try to ride one first.
Thanks again for the fedback and building my confidence in the purchase ... Now, to negotiate : -)
There's one other factor to take into consideration:
I live in Hawaii.
In 2008, I flew to the mainland, rented a bike, visited my scattered family and attended the 1st Indy MotoGP.
I rented an ST1300 in Franklin, TN and drove to Flemington, NJ, to Cortland, NY, to Dayton, OH, to Indy, back to Dayton and back down to Tennessee.
The bike was extremely capable, but I felt like I was riding a sewing machine. I also felt that a 1300 should have a bit more oomph than the ST does.
In 2009, I repeated the trip, this time on an FJR1300. The route was Trenton, NJ to Cortland to Dayton to Indy, back to Dayton and back to NJ. The FJR was a much better performer.
My point being; there's a visceral aspect to riding that can be very important.
My VFR is my only motorized vehicle, and I ride it 7 days a week.
Although I enjoyed the road trip on the ST1300, there's no doubt in my mind that I would be bored beyond belief if it was my daily ride.
ST 1300 is a little too close to a GoldWIng for me.
I would take the VFR1200 and with the money saved over the ST, spend that on some comfort mods.
Helibars, sargent seat, ZG windscreen, heated grips, and our very own Larry, AKA BusyLittleShop may soon have some footpeg lowering blocks available if anyone in the Sacramento area would bring their 1200 to his shop for fitment.
And I think you'd still have change left over.
Y know, if a guy were REALLY hung up on the fuel mileage thing, you could always remove the fuel tank, and have someone who does custom metal fabrication cut the tank and weld in an extension to give it say another gallon of capacity, then grind, sand and repaint the tank. Since its not body colour, the paint match is not a factor. Black is pretty simple to shoot, especially if it's against red and there isn't Any more black to line up against.
If those monkeys at OCC can fabricate a coffin shaped tank from flat sheet metal, someone with more talent could surely modify and enlarge a VFR tank. I'm thinking maybe adding an inch in the middle of the tank would do it???
[image: View Post]TheWarrior17, on 19 February 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:
Now I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert, but 16,500 sounds a bit pricey to me for an ST without ABS. I know at my local dealer has 2 2010 VFR1200F (non DCT) for literally 9,999 each. I'd say look around a little more and see if you can find one of the two cheaper. Also owning a VFR myself I'd say VFR is the way to go...but that might be a bit of a biased opinion. :wink:
-Mike $9,999 is without the bags. Having seen the size of the bags I wouldn't pay very much for them. Having ridden both the VFR800 and VFR1200 they are not even close to being similar. I would ride both and decide on character, riding comfort, and touring comfort. I don't see the VFR1200 as a replacement for the ST1300. If price is important there are plenty of used ST1300 out there.
Of course, I have never been accused of making good choices :)
BTW, I like the VFR1200 very much, but would not trade in the 5th gen for one just yet.
I was in your condition about 5 months ago. I ride 50 miles a day one way to work plus it is my play bike. The 1200 hit all the check marks and missed only a few. The tank being one of them. I have to gas up pretty much every other day. But now I just do it every day. It is my understanding that the DCT is getting a bit better mileage than the Manuel. But i found that I'm getting better mileage out of the tires if you run them harder. more around 40-42psi. I am constantly above 40mpg on the manual now but not by much.
The love affair I think if I had waited for the 2012 ninja 1000 It now hits the mark what I was looking for in my daily rider. The new ride on my radar for bikes is the 700 with the DCT. Just want better MPG for a commuter but Don't think that is going to happen for a year or two. I got crap to pay down now.
The ST 1300 is just to much weight for a daily bike. Would be great for the weekend going up the cost but I would rather jump on my brothers Magna750 and do the same cruising. Seems to me that the new 1200 platform could replace the ST if they do some slight adjustments and would save them on money for MFG cost by having the same frame and base power-plant but, I'm not a manufacturing engineer.(haven't Finished my degree yet)
VFR800, nice but not quite enough power.
ST1300, all day capable, but heavy and boring.
VFR1200, especially the DCT, way more exciting than the others, but it's more sport than tour. As in seat, bars and riding position, bags are good for a few days luggage (easily supplanted by a tankbag or top box).
Bottom line is that the DCT is the most exciting of the 3.
My brother has an ST while I have two VFRs, one is an 800 and one is a 1200. After riding all three, I'm sticking with the VFR. The ST is for sure a nice bike that is awesome for both touring and vigorous twisty work. The upright seating position vs. the semi-hunched over position of the VFR can be a factor for some. For me, the upright position hurts my back. Honestly, I can go much farther on my VFR than I can on my Goldwing before getting tired and my back protesting.
My opinion of the ST, however, is like has been mentioned, I find it boring. For me, the VFR makes EVERY turn fun, not just the twisties. A thread earlier talks about whether or not you smile just because you're riding. The VFR (both my 6th and 7th gens) are the only bikes that have done that for me. I can be riding on a boring, straight, Indiana road and look around and say to myself "gawd I love this bike!". Neither the ST1300 nor the Goldwing does this for me (the Goldwing is likely going to go live somewhere else this spring).
My brother and I take about a 1500 mile trip each year to the Smokies areas and he can go farther between fuelings, and carry more stuff on his ST. However, once we arrive, I KNOW I have more fun on my VFR. That's it for me, I'll take a slightly less amount of stuff and stop for gas every couple of hours in exchange for my face wearing out from the enormous smile that never leaves once I hit those curves in the mountains!
I regularly tour with a ST1300 rider who commutes every day on his bike (100K+). [image: Posted Image]
The ST is a fantastic bike with extraordinary range but obviously is slanted more towards touring although it manages quite well in the twisties. If you lived back east I would say go with the VFR1200 without a blink but in your neck of the woods I think availability of gas in something to consider (although you could take emerg gas in a MSR bottle or equivalent).
Last year on tour in Nevada I had to throttle back as I crossed the 200 mile point with a 800. THis could be a PITA and you might be forced some times to tank at 30 miles or so to make it thru the next stretch. I even had to do this myself in West Texas once on my Wing (6.7 gallons) to ensure I made the 220 between stops. Look at used 1300 options too as that 2010 seems very high to me.
I purchased my 1994 ST1100 almost 17 years ago (3/1/95) and purchased my '98 5th-generation viffer just over a year ago. I took delivery of my non-ABS ST1100 brand-new as 1995 models started to arrive in my dealer's showrooms and ended up giving $9.2k for it. MSRP for a '94 model was $10.5k back then.
The viffer definitely generates more soul-stirring sounds, is lighter, more capable in the twisties and accelerates harder. The ST is significantly heavier (by ~200lbs), but is roomier, more comfortable,versatile, & offers a considrably greater fuel range. I generally get least 300 miles from a tank, but have stretched some out to nearly 400 miles w/o ever having run out of gas!.
Although I've been riding the viffer more since purchasing it last year, even after all the years and miles (over 91k) each time I climb back in my ST's saddle it still brings a smile to my face. Without a doubt it has been the most reliable, trouble-free and versatile motorcycle I've owned to-date, and its more-than-capable in the twisties although better suited for higher-speed sweeping turns vs.very-tight, low-speed ones. Riding the ST is not as exciting as riding the viffer, but when you're facing a 400 mile ride home and the rain starts coming down on a sub-40 or 90+ degree day, on the ST is where I'd rather be..
Despite the weight, if I chose to commute daily aboard a motorcycle I'd prefer the ST for its superior room and comfort, taller highway gearing, superior wind/ weather protection standard hard saddlebags plus under-seat storage & two fairing pockets. My ST also has delivered stellar fuel economy of 50-55+ mpg on average. You can also still find some longer-lasting v-rated tires for the ST if desired to extend your tire mileage to 12k+ miles .
That said, after doing both I've concluded that commuting in my 2005 Mazda 3i (w/a~38 mpg avg over 92k miles) to less expensive and more comfortable than commuting daily on either of my motorcycles. Keep in mind that tire expense for sport or sport-touring motorcycles will by far exceed the tire expense for just about any 4-wheel vehicle I'm aware of.
I managed to get ~ 5.5 years & 72.5k miles out of the o.e. tires that came on my Mazda before I finally replaced them w/a set of Michelins puchased from Costco for between $400 & $500. Contrastingly, you'll be fortunate to manage over 10k miles out of a $300-$400+ set of tires for a sport or sport-touring motorcycle. There's also of course a safety factor that's worth considering if you're likely to be commuting in relatively heavy traffic conditions daily.
The price the dealer quoted you for a 2010 ST1300 w/o ABS seems WAY too high to me Note that according to Honda's website a 2012 model w/std ABS currently MSRP's for a similar amount. So I would not expect a left-over 2010 model should be worth more than $11-12k now (if that much). My guess is they're looking to make more profit from a optioned-out leftover VFR1200 than they would make from selling a leftover ST1300 w/o options.
Unfortunately I have no experience with the VFR1200, so can't say how it compares to a 5th or 5th generation. The higher performance and addition of shaft drive are advantages over earlier model viffers, but the somewhaty limited fuel range compared to other sport tourers would be a negative in my book. I'm also not much of a fan of the re-styling-although I feel improvements made in the new model's fit and finish are superb.
Go AZ Motorcycles Aprilia, BMW, Ducati,
Honda, Kawasaki, KTM, Triumph & Vespa
15500 N. Hayden Rd., Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Phone: 480-609-1800
I personaly wound not buy from this shop but would use them for a Demo ride. Last time I was in there they had both the DCT and Manual to Demo.
I have had great service from:
Apache Motorcycles Phoenix
3618 West Camelback Road
Phoenix, AZ 85019
(602) 973-5111
When I was overseas and my wife was looking for her first real bike (after her 250) she went to Apache and the salesman told her before she bought the SV650S she should go look at Kawi 650. She had money in hand and was ready to pull the trigger and the dealer sent her away to look at anouther bike, he wanted to make sure the bike was right. Not many dealers would do that they are ok in my book. (they now carry Kawi) If you want to ride a 6th Gen VFR I have 2 and would be happy to go for a ride with ya. I really like the 1200 but will have to wait on one myself.
I've had both an ST1300 (2009), and currently a VFR1200F without DCT. I am 5'6" and found after replacing stock seat (Horrible) with a Russell Day Long on the ST it made the bike too tall for me. Overall the ST1300 is certainly wonderful for the long haul, out on the open road, etc etc.. Awesome in bad weather as well. Drove mine from Ohio to Myrtle Beach, great riding bike (2-Up). However, for me, once we arrived in Myrtle Beach I began to experience reservations about riding such a "Top Heavy" bike in tight quarters. Yes, I dropped it as well. The plus was the built in crash bars did their job and the bike had little to no damage. Whatever you chose I seriously suggest at the very least going to Motorcycle Larry's and purchasing their highway switchblade pegs for the ST (You will need to stretch on the long haul and they really helped.
I since purchased the VFR1200F and for me it's a perfect fit. I drove it from Cincinnati Ohio to Westchester County New York, down to Richmond Virginia, and across to Cincinnati and found this bike was a better fit for me. I did switch the seat with a Corbin. I have all three bags on the bike and it was adequate for one person. I rode to NY in the rain for 12 hours and bike was awesome. But the most important aspect for me was riding in tight quarters I was quite at ease on the VFR Than an ST.
I am a retired speed and thrill junkie who still likes to "Feel the Rush" from time to time, an the VFR1200 allows me to do this; But its also my daily commuter to work and a long distance hauler for vacations. It's heavy enough to be a tourer, but it's more sport bike than touring. I did not add or modify the current windshield on the VFR, but did replace windshield on ST as my wife found the wind buffeting her about on the ST.
The ST also generates a lot of heat off the engine, considering where you live, at 7 in the morning the bike will certainly keep you warm, but by 11am you will cook your legs and need to where the right kinda pants so as not to burn yourself.
Two up for distance and little tight cornering I'd think more ST. But if you want a bike that can do it all, but still feel good riding around the local streets lean toward a VFR. If two up for distance is most important, than an ST1300 is your ticket.
On the issue of tank size and range. How far do most of us go before we stop? Two hours at 70 is 140 miles. That's about my limit. The difference between the bikes is how often you fill up as opposed to how long between fill ups.
Hope the above helped.
Please note if you have a Vulcan 1500 you may think the ST weight will not be an issue; I also had a Honda Interstate Cruiser which weighed in around 713 and believe me when I say the ST is a whole different beast. If this needs to be tested sit on the bike at the dealers and lean it over and make sure two guys are standing their to catch the bike, you won't lean too far before you hit a point to no return.
Good luck. If you want to ask anymore questions be glad to offer any assistance.
Do the VFR. My 35 mile one way commute in the mornings makes me smile and look forward to the ride home. The VFR is a plush rocket with an addictive motor that will pass nearly anything street legal (within reason) all the while being glassy smooth and surprisingly agile for it's size. I LOVE my VFR. Pisses me off that I paid for mine last March and they've dropped the price.....but what are you gonna do? And the biggest reason I love my VFR is that it's fucking awesome and nobody else has one......
My heart says go with the VFR (with side-bags, Zero Gravity touring screen, first mod is likely the Corbin seat) ... My head says go with all the standard capabilities and capacity that is standard with the ST1300. BTW ...My wide says she's rather sepend the money redoing the kitchen!!
OH!! ... I also looked at the Kawasaki Concours (price reduced to $12,9 MSRP and loaded with extras). A nice bike yet not trying to open another blog discssion :smile: .
I will use this as primary bike for years and know that I will only discover the +/- after time spent in the saddle - yet you guys have helped alot.
Whatever I decide, I can live with the challenges and enjoy the ride.
Regrets for a delayed responses ... Work sometimes gets in the way of my passions .. Thanks for all the sound feedback ...
Please don't hate me but as I like more sports than touring aspect in a bike but need the touring aspect for long distances my pick out of the current bikes in that category would be the 2012 ZX14 :-)
I would buy one in a flash if I was looking to upgrade, I don't class the ST as sports & after riding the VFR1200 I don't class that as sports either in the same category like the VFR800 sports/tourer.
Yes I'm a Kawasaki fan because I'm not brand loyal if something suits me & if you haven't had a ride on the 2012 ZX14 do so even if you would never buy one because it is an amazing bike.
Remember that the out-the-door price will include base price, freight and setup, documentation fee, tax, and registration.
Almost all dealers pump up the freight and setup, so I would recommend that you have the salesman break down these costs.
Freight should cost around $100 and setup about $25. Doc fee? . . . a few minutes of paper work . . . that should be free.
These are money makers and almost as bad as extended warranties. The other big money maker is the "600 mile checkup".
When I was a Honda sales manager I asked our head mechanic how many bikes really needed valve adjustments during the
600 mile checkup and he stated "about 3%." Do your own oil and filter change and save several hundreds of dollars.
Save money on insurance by taking a MSF class like the Experienced Rider Class (ERC). Some, but not all, insurance
organizations will give you a discount when you present your MSF card.
If you want to save a lot of money buy bikes that are about one year old from riders who got in way over their budgets.
I like your idea about the Kawasaki ZX-14, but don't forget to consider the Yamaha FJR1300 also. Stock and Used is king! :tongue:
Here is the 'out-the-door' prices on each bike ...
++VFR 1200 Quote = $14,400 out-the-door (covers build, taxes, destination, add-ons) for the 2012 Dual Clutch version (Auto + Padle shifter), with Honda side-bags, and extended Honda extende wind-screen (Honda bags & bags & talller screen = $1300). This price goes down ~$100 with a Zero Gravity screen instead of the Honda wind-screen.
[image: View Post]jjarama, on 28 February 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:
Here is the 'out-the-door' prices on each bike ...
++VFR 1200 Quote = $14,400 out-the-door (covers build, taxes, destination, add-ons) for the 2012 Dual Clutch version (Auto + Padle shifter), with Honda side-bags, and extended Honda extende wind-screen (Honda bags & bags & talller screen = $1300). This price goes down ~$100 with a Zero Gravity screen instead of the Honda wind-screen.
++2012 Concours = $15,600 out-the-door (this bike is loaded with features). There is a Demo (~1K miles) available of tis bike available too.
I didn't negotiate any of these prices ... (yet : -)
The price seems to be your driver in this. So why don't you go for the lowest one, with negotiation?
If pricing is not a concerns, so what?
If you prefer the bike handling, just grab each of them one and go for a trial ride.
If you prefer the bike multifunction/multimedia, choose the bike with more "buttons" and more technology applied. Not the VFR1200 I would say.
If you prefer the comfort for a long ride, VFR1200 would not be able to compare with other two.
etc...
I was looking at all those bikes and others too, Victory, HD and Triumph, But after setting on the 1200VFR and then finding a very nice deal on one with 600 miles it's been just over a year and 12,000 miles with no regrets. On longer 300 mile rides I just pull in for fuel between 120 and 150 miles most of the time, sometimes you have to plan a little on the real outback roads but the range is fine. I like the ridding position and think the stock seat is one of the best stock seats I've ever used. Your looking at very nice bikes anyone of them should be really good but I'll keep my 1200VFR Grin machine, for now anyway.[image: Posted Image]
Things I don’t like about the Concours 14 (owned for 18 months)
Kipass (Key fob) still need a key to start the bike, open the side bags, gas tank,etc. Why couldn’t Kawasaki have just used a key.
Wider than a Goldwing, difficult to split lanes when compared to VFR & St 1300.
Quality/workmanship not on par with Honda.
My feet would bake in the summer.
Handling is night and day when you compare it to a VFR, never thought the C14 was so heavy, until I did a back to back comparison
Things I like about Concours 14.
VFR buzzes at certain RPM, whereas C14 didn’t notice at any rpm.
Electronically adjustable windscreen.
Don’t need to buy anything extra such as side bags, center stand, heated grip.
Insurance cost was lower, at least for me.
More legroom, foot pegs are noticeably lower when compared to a VFR
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